What was wrong with the Hyde Park Buck?

Tristate

Long Time Member
Messages
8,853
With all the photos and video of the Hyde Park Buck I have been able to draw the conclusion that the deer suffered from undersized nonviable testicles and was also in danger of dying from an impaction under his jaw.

Just for a moment let's quit worshipping horns and study deer.
 
Then explain to me the relationship of photoperiodism and testicular descension
 
First it is not relevant here but if it was I have compared videos and photos which encompass several months including times when he was approaching the rut.

Photoperiodism is outdated science when it comes to cervidae and has been pretty much completely replaced with genetic sciences. If sun periods and moon phases controlled sexual viability and breaking then bucks would not be able to breed doe at any given time which science has proven to be possible.
 
I am not a biologist, nor do I play one on the internet. I didn't even have dinner last night with 3 of them to ask them this question. But if I was a betting man, I'd say the thing most wrong with that buck is he got shot in the head with a .22.

That probably trumped any other issues for him...
 
Vanilla,

"Wrong" for the worshippers might be just right for the herd. Sometimes the best thing for a deer is a quick one in the head. I've seen it hundreds of times before. A good budy once told me, "you can't store big deer away in a refrigerator or file cabinet, and they certainly don't live forever". By the way he is a dvm and is capturing mule deer in west Texas today and tomorrow for TPWD.
 
Whats wrong with the Hyde Park Buck?
Well I agree with Vanilla about the .22 slug to the head. That would put a damper on any critters day and I didn't even have to use my 27 years of medical school in Guadalarja to come to that conclusion.
 
What was Wrong with the Hyde Park Buck was:

He became Friendly with TARDS!

He decided He Loved the Free Apples!

He Loved the Peaceful Atmosphere!

He decided He was in a Safer Place!

Then as He got Older & His Rack got Bigger a Few JACK-TARDS couldn't Resist Illegally Killing Him!










[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
They can chemically induce doe to cycle out of their normal time and bucks will readily breed them.


As for why aren't deer being born at all times of the year, they can and do. We have recorded it happening. Is it rare? You bet. But that plays right back into the genetics which we spoke of. Lets say you have a doe cycle early and her fawn drops in March. More than likely the fawn dies AND DOES NOT LET THE GENES THAT TRIGGERED THAT TO CONTINUE FORWARD IN THE HERD. Pretty soon that event occurs less and less. SO by actual genetic selection "the rut" is continuously narrowed and refined.

We know that animals that exist in equatorial portions of the planet experience very specific breeding season also even though they do not necessarily have seasonal changes like we do here.
 
That sounds more like natural selection in conjunction with photoperiodism. And on the equator the distance to the Sun does change which could explain the cycles of nature changing with the time. Can u site this study I'd like to read it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-15 AT 08:07AM (MST)[p]And can you post a pic of that buck in late October showing his lack of descension. Or perhaps Butts could chime in and tell us if he had a pair hangin.
 
There's a hard antlered video on one of the other threads. It isn't dated but its hard antlered. Check it out.

I am sure you can find studies regarding whether equatorial ungulates have breading seasons but do you need a study to know deer have fur on them?

I notice your not as focused on the mandible issues the deer was having, only the testicles????


Look at the general body confirmation of the deer when he was alive? Does he look like an athletic mature buck? I don't think so. He looks like fat tubby steer. Does anyone have a pic of the deer in the previous year during rut? I would really be interested to see it. Lets see what his body looked like then.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-15 AT 08:25AM (MST)[p]A mere 5 degree latitude change at the equator shows a measurable difference in daylight. Individual migration within a species could clearly maintain that seasonal clock. The studies I refer to that you referred to are the ones on the does being injected to come into season. And I can't see the mandible issue can you post a pic of it on this deer? Bucks, particularly those over 5 years of age, commonly have testicular descension and shrinkage during non-breeding periods.
 
You seem to be implying this buck had no reason to leave town to chase does as he was incapable of breeding?
 
So if length of day controls breeding cycles why do we have deer with no specific breeding season and other populations which have two breeding seasons?

It ain't length of day.

Why would I imply this buck had no reason to leave town? That has been the argument of others, as evidence he was poached, on this thread that I specifically said was an impossibility? If the deer did not have viable testicles it would do more to bolster their argument and show that I was more likely wrong. WHY WOULD I WANT TO SHOW YOU I WAS WRONG BEFORE?
 
Go watch the posted video on the other thread. You can clearly see underneath his mandibles he is clearly swollen and distorted. In the picture with the poacher holding it you can clearly see it has gotten worse because now it is visible from a front profile and not just the side profile from the video.
 
So DW, did this deer have a functional sex drive which would lead him out of town or does it look like I may be onto something here? Or do you still just want to have it both ways?

DO you want deer that are trained steers and are not sexually viable to the herd or would you like your deer to be wild animals with no fences, literally or figuratively, that CAN be killed by actual hunters?
 
Yes but u say he was a "fat steer" so clearly the tooth wasn't affecting him. Watched the 12 and a half minute video, when he's hard horned his testicles are visible and appear normal. He was smart and that bothers some. The confession only strengthen the arguement he didn't leave town. Most big ranches have a no go zone, a safe zone if u will, to provide security and safety for some individuals to survive and perpetuate the species on their ranch. This doesn't mean the genes of the deer that utilize said safe zone don't effect the rest of the ranch. That's all these town deer are. You watch, those antler characteristics will appear again in that area, inside and out of town.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-15 AT 09:00AM (MST)[p]He had a functioning sex drive. Doesn't prove he ever left town. Your OP implied he did not have a functioning sex drive and all the pics u saw proved it. The video shows otherwise clearly your point is lost
 
I am not arguing that he did not have testicles. I am saying he had undersized nonviable testicles. The scrotum in the video is no bigger than my thumb.

By the way the safe zone on the ranch thing might be the dumbest thing you have ever posted.

I have no doubt deer in the area will keep growing antlers.
 
It's a pretty common practice. We applied it on my grandparents farm. We had a brushy area that had been clear cut 10yrs prior that we stayed out of, only hunting the edges. It helped hold more deer on the farm. Again until butts chimes in well have to agree to disagree on the size of the oysters. Why does it bother u that he never left town till somebody shined him?
 
"Why does the fact that this deer never left town, bother you so much?"


Because its not "a fact" and I think very few people here know what a fact is.



Second, if it even remotely could be a fact, that reduces him to a life support system for a set of horns. Just a stupid cow that just as easily could have been killed by a station wagon or choked to death on a marigold. The same thing most posters hate, penned deer, is the same thing they worship here. Totally void of majesty, cunning, or freedom. The fact that anyone here would care to this childish extent is beyond any logic whatsoever. IT SHOWS I AM NOT SURROUNDED BY HUNTERS BUT INSTEAD A BUNCH OF HORN WORSHIPPERS.
 
Now answer my questions. Why care about a fat lazy pet deer more than other deer? What makes this deer so important that you scream for punishment so severe that it effects the lives of these people's children.
 
Do you really wonder why there are threads like the one that was recently deleted? Do you really think you are the only person on this forum with a wildlife degree? Why is it so difficult for u to carry on an intelligent civil conversation?
 
It isn't just "this deer", this deer will just b the catalyst to stiffer penalties for poaching trophy class deer. Be they in town or up above timber.
 
Bull! It is THIS deer. He ain't the first deer to get poached and he won't be the last but no deer has been worshipped like this one. Now answer my question.

You already confessed this is about horn worship when you labeled it "trophy class deer". You are simply roving my point for me.
 
"Do you really think you are the only person on this forum with a wildlife degree?"

No but I am starting to believe I am the only one who will speak using logic and certainly the only one who is more interested in justice than vengeance.


" Why is it so difficult for u to carry on an intelligent civil conversation?"

GO show me where I have attacked you on this thread. You talk way more trash than I do. You and others attack and belittle anyone who disagrees with you.
 
Please enlighten me as to how the DVM working for the TPWD has made any statements that affect this discussion. I see no imput from him. Am I missing a post? I think you will find that he would support the idea that photoperiodism affects when female deer come in heat, as it does in a lot of species. Yes, you can make does (or pretty much any animal) come in heat with hormones, but you can also affect when they do by changing the light they receive. People in the horse industry have been doing it for decades. They increase the light to their mares and get them to cycle earlier in the year so they can get a baby born just after Jan. 1st.

Yes, GENETICS controls HOW the photoperiodism affects that individual animal because as stated, if they are born early or late, they usually don't survive, so their genetics are not passed on. But it is the decreasing light period in the fall that triggers an individual animal to come in heat (as per their genetics tells them). Otherwise , they would have probably evolved cycling year round (as most equitorial animals like axis deer do). How does the genetics of a particular doe know it is time to come in? I have not seen a theory that makes more sense than photoperiodism.

I have no idea whether or not the Hyde Park buck was fertile or not, or whether he was an "inferior" specimem in any way, but it is irrellevant to a poaching issue. There can be no rationalizing which justifies poaching by an individual. And we all know the people who killed him were not doing it out of the goodness of their heart to remove an "inferior" genetic specimen. That is laughable.


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>Bull! It is THIS deer.
> He ain't the first
>deer to get poached and
>he won't be the last
>but no deer has been
>worshipped like this one.
>Now answer my question.
>
>You already confessed this is about
>horn worship when you labeled
>it "trophy class deer".
>You are simply roving my
>point for me.

THIS deer was "worshipped" to the extent he was because he was visible to so many people who would like to have him on their wall or not! And he hung around town simply because up until he was poached, he hadn't had any reason to flee from danger.

I side with you about the horn "worship", but unlike you, I view it as a negative, not a positive! It will be the downfall of hunting as we now know it, which I know you look forward to.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-15 AT 01:25PM (MST)[p]I doubt many worshiped the buck. They just liked watching such a big buck that would'nt run for the bushes.

The buck rutted in town and bread does. I'm pretty sure everything was working just fine.
 
Huntin50,

Get me some rut pics.

Txhunter,

Play horsey somewhere else we be talking deer. I don't know squat about horses and I aint going to argue them for you.

I am telling you I have personally seen killed doe out of season, authorized by TPWD, pulled their fetuses and pinpointed the peak rut within a 72 hour period and the very next year it not change a single day although sun exposure isn't the same. Then go do the exact same thing five hours west on the exact same latitude and the deer are rutting 6 weeks later and they repeat it EXACTLY the following year. Sun the same. GENETICS DIFFERENT.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-15 AT 03:10PM (MST)[p]As a DVM myself, who has horse breeders and deer breeders for clients I play deer too.

Yep, deer where I live rut about 3 weeks earlier than the deer almost due west of here about 60 miles. Why, because of the vegetation in the springtime. West of here is drier and the sprintime greenup is later: fawns born earlier are more likely to die from starvation. So there is genetic selection in those deer to respond to a later photoperiod than the ones where I live.

Just like some of the deer in the northern states rut not much later than the ones in Texas, because it correlates to when their specific area greens up in the spring and most fawns survive. There genetics is selected by fawn survival, but again, what specifically tells the does when to come in heat that first time? Photoperiod

And what triggers the bucks to lose their velvet? Again, genetics that have been selected for the optimal breeding period. But what triggers the actual hormonal change that results in the buck shedding velvet? What tells that specific buck what day to change his hormones and start shedding velvet on? Photoperiod.

Yep, an individual doe can cycle at any time of the year, and once a buck sheds his velvet, he is ready to breed. In fact that is the only time he will be fertile. And even though he is ready in September, the rut usually doesn't happen until the photoperiod tells the does in his area to come in heat a few months after most bucks shed. But like most males, he is ready and waiting for those few that come in a little early!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I would say the people most guilty of "horn worship" were the guys who poached the deer and risked effecting their kids future, unless of course they shot it for the meat.

Mark

Just to be clear, I do not think these guys should go to Jail for this, there are plenty of worse criminals walking the streets.
 
I have a vague recollection of a report done by Valerius Geist in regards to extremely large bull elk and how some of the larger antlered bulls do not participate in breeding activities. If I recall correctly the hypothesis was that some bulls have a diminished sex drive which causes them to put more energy into growing antlers and less into looking for love. I seem to remember some of the work was done in Utah and spurred by report from hunters of extremely large bulls not showing any cow gathering activity or responsiveness to calling. It was in a hunting rag.

Then again maybe I am full of crap.
 
Tri. The deer did have an abscess of some kind in its jaw. Thus the reason he grew funky the previous year. The year he was killed it had healed up and he was perfectly normal. As for his gear working properly. I watched him in the rut chasing does and humping them as the dominant buck in the area. So yes everything was normal. Not all deer die from an abcess. They are tough animals. His jaw had healed leaving a lump there
 
Txhunter,

You are going off of outdated science. The reason I can tell is you are talking about the first time a doe cycles being "told" by photoperiod. The majority of wild deer don't cycle with the rest of the herd their first time. They usually cycle much later. In the years after that they catch up.

What tells any woman to cycle? What tells any axis deer to cycle? A body has a specific internal clock given by its genes. Can you influence that clock? You bet. But the length of daylight doesn't decide when a deer breeds.

Can a blind deer ever cycle??????? She won't know how long the sun is up. You realize there are deer species that within a herd bucks will drop horns and regrow them all at different times of the year ALL WITHIN THE SAME HERD. There are so many holes in this sun "science" I can't count them.

In your dad's time do you know what they believed caused the rut? Temperature. DO you know I still have discussions with lots of really great old hunters, who I love to talk to, that still give me the old song and dance of "the first freeze after the full moon in November triggers the rut". Its still old outdated science.


Who knows. Maybe in thirty more years there will be new scientists who decide it is barometric pressure squeezing their genitals that cycles them.
 
Trophymuley,

Lump appears worse post mortem. I know this isn't always fatal but can be.

Please provide rutting pics of said buck.

Much Thanks
 
Thank God those guy poached this inferior specimen. He was skinny as a rail, then hog fat, abscessed jaw, all healed up, had testicles the size of Trollstate's thumb! Its a wonder he didn't die at birth. I think we should recommend these two poachers and their accomplice to sainthood.

Trollstate likes testicles that are big and robust that bounce off his chin. And he's a taxidermist, wildlife biologist, veterinarian, geneticist and any other "arian" or ologist" you want to throw into the argument. He can conjure up college degrees in over lunch with his pals or overnight on the interweb. You will never convince him of anything. Not even his own points. He will just roll and deflect and turn the argument around. Give up on this troll. He's an idiot. His mother should have swallowed him.

Oh, and I forgot, he's a Boone and Crockett official scorer too. Just ask and be prepared to be amazed.





[font color="blue"]I don't make the soup,I just stir it.[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-15 AT 04:48PM (MST)[p]"You realize there are deer species that within a herd bucks will drop horns and regrow them all at different times of the year ALL WITHIN THE SAME HERD. There are so many holes in this sun "science" I can't count them."

Wow, you mean like axis? Yes, I know about them. Saw a herd with all different antler phases on my ranch last weekend from just shed to hard horned. And what part of the earth did they originate from?

It has nothing to do with "sun science". It has to do with fawn survival. How can genetics alone trigger something happening the same date every year? What is the trigger? If not sunlight, then what. Genetics alone can not explain that.

I knew better than to debate you since you are never wrong. I have been wrong many times, so please show me the new science you are speaking of that refutes my "opinions". I am talking scientific papers, etc. Until then, I agree to dissagree.

And I am still curious why you mentioned the TPWD DVM. I know him personally, so I can verify anything he might be able to clarify.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Wow,
you've got quite the eye. He did have an abnormal growth on his jaw but as for the testicles they seemed to work properly prior to being poached. He chased the does pretty hard and I'm pretty sure there is some offspring of his.
 
And I Thought I Screwed off on the Internet too much!

JUDAS!






[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
Tristate,

I really don't want to get into a big debate. YES, this deer was special. He was very visible and lots of people knew of him. Other deer are poached all the time I agree. Not all deer are as in the spotlight as this buck was. It is for this fact that the deer has got a lot of publicity. I don't believe the buck was worshipped. It's like John Stockton in Basketball, he was very good and fun to watch did I worship him no. Did I worship this deer no. Why are you making this story into something it's not?
 
Tell Ya what Boys!

When they started passin out them Free Milk Cartons that Hurt a little!

6132hyde_park_buck.jpg





[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-15 AT 06:45PM (MST)[p]Txhunter,

What trips a woman's cycle every 28 days?


Answer that. The sun sure isn't on any type of 28 day cycle. What exterior force tells her to cycle every 28 days.

Answer that.

The reference to my vet friend was in response to me being called a dvm.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-09-15
>AT 06:45?PM (MST)

>
>Txhunter,
>
>What trips a woman's cycle every
>28 days?
>
>
>Answer that. The sun sure
>isn't on any type of
>28 day cycle. What
>exterior force tells her to
>cycle every 28 days.
>
>Answer that.
>
>The reference to my vet friend
>was in response to me
>being called a dvm.

No I won't answer. The question is on you. Show the science you speak of about DEER instead of misdirection. I will also discuss this thread with Bob and let him read it when he returns from West Texas and see if he agrees with your theories.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>Elk,
>
>go back and read. I
>view horn worship as a
>negative. That's what is
>going on here.

I have gone back and read your posts, more times than I care to remember, not only on this thread or this case or this month, or this year. And what I find is that your idea of the "value" of horns is also your idea of the salvation of hunting in the future. You look forward to the time when all the permits are marketed at their highest prices and the average man can't afford to buy them.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-15 AT 05:46AM (MST)[p]You won't answer because you realize the answer makes you have to question your assumptions about genetics and you just can't fathom you could be wrong about something.


Who the heck is Bob? Bob sounds scary. Please don't tell on me to Bob.
 
Wrong elk. I look forward to the day when mule deer are marketed at their highest prices so that they can be a valued herd and commodity. Therefore instead of everyone fighting over who gets to kill the last one, there is a realistic sustainable herd we can all fight over.
 
Actually it is you who will not answer. This conversation is about whether deer are triggered by photoperiodism, not women. Human beings have had much different evolutionary/genetic pressures than ruminants. You claim to have science behind your theories. So prove it. Until then, we are done. As I said, I have been wrong before and will admit to being wrong on here if you can prove your case. I'm all ears

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Bull! I am talking about genetics. YOU claim genetics can't account for time and I gave you an example when it can and does and you are too chicken to admit it.

You can't explain why a deer under the same photoperiod 300 miles from a different deer has a completely different rut.

Billions and billions of organisms on this earth literally running completely on coded instinct and somehow this one little helpless species has to see the sun to know when to screw.
 
I SHOWED you the geography and you don't want to admit deer under the exact same photoperiod have different breeding cycles. Now quit hoping no one will notice the egg on your face and answer the question I asked. If genetics can't calculate time then why does a woman cycle every 28 days? Why are fawn births always after 200 days? Why would animals that live where there is no photoperiod have very specific breeding seasons?

DO you understand how a second is calculated? What it is actually based upon? I'll go ahead and tell you it has nothing to do with the sun.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-15 AT 08:59AM (MST)[p]If you actually read my posts, you will see how two groups of deer at the same photoperiod can rut differently, so I answered that question. Not going to do it again. Still waiting for science.............. uh, no your word is not good enough

Tell on you? This isn't junior high. I am trying to get someone involved who has any real credability on the internet. You and I don't.

Who is Bob? He is the only DVM employed full time by the TPWD. How about Bill or Dan? Two other DVMS that volunteer with the TPWD. Not sure if they are involved with this particular project. One of them who you are talking about? I am looking for anyone with credability.

So I say again: "where is the science" Please qoute me a reliable source or article (scientific journal or other).

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>If you actually read my posts,
>you will see how two
>groups of deer at the
>same photoperiod can rut differently,
>so I answered that question.
>Not going to do it
>again. Still waiting for science..............
>uh, no your word is
>not good enough
>
>Tell on you? This isn't
>junior high. I am trying
>to get someone involved who
>has any real credability on
>the internet. You and I
>don't.
>
>Who is Bob? He is the
>only DVM employed by the
>TPWD. How about Bill or
>Dan? Two other DVMS
>that volunteer with the TPWD.
> Not sure if they
>are involved with this particular
>project. One of them who
>you are talking about? I
>am looking for anyone with
>credability.
>
>So I say again: "where
>is the science" Please
>qoute me a reliable source
>or article (scientific journal or
>other).
>
>txhunter58
>
>venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore
>I am)



+1


Tristerbate said it is true so he doesn't need science. txhunter, don't you know he is the expert?




[font color="blue"]I don't make the soup,I just stir it.[/font]
 
an impaction under his jaw doesn't make him worthless. That can be fixed by a good taxidermist. Anyone know one?:)

Eel

It's written in the good Book that we'll never be asked to take more than we can. Sounds like a good plan, so bring it on!
 
You say you said it so how do two groups of deer rut differently during the same photoperiod? You say you answered it but I can't find it?

But the guy who actually mapped rutting periods in Texas has no credibility. Got ya.

DId I argue with you about horses? No. Go back and read. Because I have no credibility there.
 
"an impaction under his jaw doesn't make him worthless. That can be fixed by a good taxidermist. Anyone know one?"


There are none because we don't get science papers published. :D
 
Tri., is the name of your shop "Midnight Taxidermy" by any chance?:D

Eel

It's written in the good Book that we'll never be asked to take more than we can. Sounds like a good plan, so bring it on!
 
#43 above. First two paragraphs.

The sad part about this disscussion is that we agree that genetics control the process. Of course they do. But you say genetics is soley responsible for triggering that first estrus cycle in the fall and I say it is Photoperiod (as determined by genetics IN THAT PARITICULAR HERD) Photoperiod response is determined by fawn survival wherever the deer happen to live

I admit I don't know everything, and I am only interested in finding truth, not putting egg on anyone's face. H$ll, some days it seems like 1/2 the stuff we learned at the greatest university on the planet has been proved wrong in some aspect. However, you talk and talk and all I hear is your opnion. You said Science is on your side. Please show us.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-15 AT 11:36AM (MST)[p]SO you have been arguing about something you know I am right about in combination with something I never said?????????

Why would you ever let emotion conflict with reason?
 
>Wrong elk. I look forward
>to the day when mule
>deer are marketed at their
>highest prices so that they
>can be a valued herd
>and commodity. Therefore instead
>of everyone fighting over who
>gets to kill the last
>one, there is a realistic
>sustainable herd we can all
>fight over.

You mean a realistic sustainable herd of trophy bucks that the wealthiest can fight over because the money being generated for the current auctioned permits is being used to create policies that grow more trophies, not herds.
 
I have been pretty clear from the start that I agree that genetics is responsible for when a doe within a particular herd cycles (just reread my first post). However, the trigger for when a particular doe comes in heat for the first time in the fall is triggered by reducing levels of sunlight (photoperiodism)

You have been pretty clear that you disagree with that second statement. So where am I putting words in your mouth?

"Show me the science" unless you do that, I am done.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I disagreed when you stated it does it the first time and then repeats itself at the same time every year.

For wild deer the first time they cycle is typically much later than the rest of the herd. I do not know why this is. I can only guess that it is an issue of sexual maturity. I just know it does exist. In all following years it they usually coincide with the rest of the herd.

At best photoperiod is flimsy as for triggering the rut. Can it effect the cycle of deer? You bet. So can food, temperatures, and water. I can set up an experiment that could show any one of those other three variables are directly related to triggering the rut. ANd guess what those other three variables can all be related to? That's right the sun.

The simple facts are these genetics hands down is the most important thing there is to the rut. We can specifically push deer herds through genetic selection to move the rut, We know that ungulates can and do have specific breeding cycles where there is virtually no photoperiodism.

SO here is my question. Why does a fine tuned mammalian biological machine personally need photoperiods?
 
We are at the top of the food chain and we have watches and calendars. Photoperiod is merely their calendar.
 
Thanks for answering the question but at best their calendar would only be good for a two month year.
 
>Hmmmmm?


Finally, something shut Tri up at least for awhile, but he's still on the other thread with his smartazz retorts!
 
What shut me up? I just quit talking because nobody was posting any content???? DW can post all the magazine articles and estrus adds he wants. I enjoy reading them. Even txhunter finally agreed genetics is what decides the rut.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-15 AT 02:49PM (MST)[p]Natural selection determines the optimal time for birthing. Photoperiod keeps the time and triggers the rut to begin. It's a scientific theory that's been proven thru studies altering the amount of light to mimic daylight during the time leading up to the rut.
 
Still trying to figure out why we keep having trickle ruts in heavy fawn recruitment years and very short & heavy ruts during terrible fawn recruitment years.
 
Tx_packmule,

More than likely the two things aren't related. Also more than likely your ruts have been the exact same if you could map them on a graph. What typically makes people think that the rut has changed, or gotten stronger, or weaker, is actually what I call rut visibility. The daytime activities of the deer are influenced by many factors and that's when we see the actual movements of the deer. At the same time we must remember there is 12 hours of rut each day we are not seeing. These are wild animals that in most cases do prefer low light activity.

As for changes in fawn recruitment you are probably looking at a mountain of different variables.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-15 AT 04:13PM (MST)[p]I actually agree with tri on that one txpackmule. Those 6 month old does come in heat late their first cycle. If u have alot of doe fawns they come in at different times after the primary rut when the majority of does are breed. Thus dragging the rut on.
 
I think they do, as well as buck to doe ratios. Fewer bucks, fewer does get covered their first heat cycle causing a "second","third", and even a "fourth rut".
 
"Even txhunter finally agreed genetics is what decides the rut."

Wow, what a distortion and I am sure Tri is the only one who believes that is accurate. I am through discussing things with him, because you never make any headway. All you get is his "truth" without any real science to back it up.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 

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