SFWs motives

O

Oneye

Active Member
Messages
443
http://www.americanlandscouncil.org...ssed_resolution_of_support?recruiter_id=18379

With this stand that SFW has decided to chose on the land transfer situation, you should all ask yourself who they have in mind before you support SFW again. Land being turned over to the state would be a great loss for sportsmen. SFW is the only sportsmen organization that has decided to support this BS and for me aside from all the other things SFW does that don't benefit sportsmen, this is the last straw for me. SFW is about the rich hunter and commercializing our wildlife here in Utah. They have not stayed true to their mission and worry more about economical and political values of the paths they take.

As a sportsman consider these points:

-Since SFW has been established you have less hunting opportunity
-There has been great loss in tag numbers since their establishment
- deer populations have decreased steadily over the last few decades since they were established
- they continue to use failed management strategies that have been proven ineffective

Now ask yourself these questions:
-Do you see more deer now that they've had 3 decades to prove their mission and have failed?
- is it easier or much harder for you to draw a permit to hunt?
-why should public tags be taken out of the general publics hands and given to a private organization that gets to benefit by keeping even a portion of the funds raised off a 100% public resource ?
-what has happened to your hunting opportunity?

There was also this quote:


?We can't do our part for our nation?s wildlife resources without the support of the hunters who come to Expo to buy the hunt of a lifetime in our auction,? commented Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife CEO, Jon Larson. ?We are so thankful for their generosity and wish them all the best of luck on their hunts this year.?

This to me shows how much SFW is for the rich hunter and commercialization of our wildlife. He thanks the few millionaires who bought auctioned tags but not the thousands of hunters that go to the expo or buy public hunting licenses supporting Utahs economy and wildlife.

There are some great volunteers at SFW that have been fed crap by an organization that is letting us pay our own way right out of the hunting and fishing heritage we all hold so dear. SFW's true mission is dollar signs for wildlife and they prove it more every day by staying in bed with the Utah legislature to keep our tax dollars pouring in instead of standing beside every single other conservation group and saying NO to this ridiculous land transfer agenda and standing up for thee sportsmen they rely on for support. I will never attend the expo again so long as SFW is in charge of it, I will never go to one of their banquets, and I will never be a supporting member until they change their tune and honor the mission statement on their website.

To SFW say NO, until they have our interest in mind.
 
"A steady decrease in deer the last three decades.". Not according to UT fish and Wildlife who state that there are more deer today than 25 years ago.. Hmmm. Someone is lying or greatly misinformed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-15 AT 11:25AM (MST)[p]The overall trend is still pointing down. Just because you have a few years of good weather does not mean we have accomplished sound game management and are on the upswing. Do your research and look at overall trends before spouting off about short distances where we see small populations growth because of weather and nothing else. SFW likes to take credit for "helping our deer herds" in this state, now when they take a giant tumble in the next few years due to winter or other biological reasons, I want to see SFW take the blame as well. You don't get praise and get to escape blame. Our deer herd will be back to the 250,000 level before you know it and it will be due to biological reasons very few on here or at SFW can even understand. Keep preaching predator control and deer transplants, and giving SFW millions to lobby against worthless causes, and we can all sit back and watch our deer herd plummet again. Put the science back in wildlife management, because all SFW is interested in is politics, greed, and good PR to those supporting their way right out of the hunting business. You're paying for your own downfall by supporting them, and its slowly becoming more easy to see. Just seeing the fact they support this land swap should show you how much they want to privatize hunting, make it a rich mans sports, and shut you out. It also shows how they aren't going to stand up for sportsmen because they have to stay in bed with the Utah legislature and support their views. Until they can change that motto I would stop buying your own way out.
 
Because after someone else finds, watches,and puts in all the time to just let that person pull the trigger and call themself a sportsmen is asinine. Pulling the trigger is no more than shooting a cow in a slaughter house, do you consider them sportsmen for doing that?

If your asking why a rich organization like SFW is not a true "sportsmen organization" I could go on forever. They stand up for things that make no sense at all. Side track millions of dollars for worthless lobbying (i.e sage grouse/wolf) that could be used for beneficial wildlife projects and funding. Also there is no transparency of where those millions go. The Utah legislature just agreed to give 2 million more of our tax dollars for sage grouse lobbying. SFW is no better than the legislature they are in bed with. Wasting money that isn't accounted for. You want to prevent the listing of the grouse start proving this state can put that money towards protecting its habitat and future and not developing it the second a developer throws cash your way. Lobbying accomplishes nothing but PR to the uniformed individuals who like to think something is being accomplished. SFW uses predator control and deer transplants as good PR when in reality predator control has shown in countless studies that with predator removal deer populations DO NOT THRIVE. Yet because of the power SFW holds they get their name out there like they're doing something when they have accomplished nothing but taking us back in time. Deer transplants are not cost effective at all. Is it better we take a deer somewhere else to die a slow death rather than get hit by a car, you still gained nothing, but they want you to believe you did that's good for their business model. IF there are a thousand deer in an area struggling, answer me this: why the heck would adding 50 more make a difference in growing the herd? It's a simple minded stance to think that would have a difference.

Bottom line is, I am not against someone rich purchasing the tags and the money from a PUBLIC RESOURCE going back to the wildlife that brought the money in. I am not okay with private groups like SFW stealing tax dollars and money acquired from public resources to fund their economical and political schemes. It's gone far enough and now they just took a stand against the sportsmen that are the reason they even exhist, so now it's time to push back. I've seen enough wasted time and money by this corrupt organization that has taken us decades back and left us decades behind on sound science and wildlife management. They stand for everything that makes no sense at all. They have good volunteers and folks who attend their banquets who don't realize the group they are supporting and the damage they are causing in our state. People from outside of Utah laugh at our management and the affects SFW has had here and want nothing to do with this organization. It's a pity we've let them get this far. SFW members can be great sportsmen and conservationists, but the group itself is as corrupt as they come and stands against the North American model for wildlife conservation.

So aside from everything I just said. Being rich doesn't make you not a sportsmen, but a rich sportsmen will be the only sportsmen if SFW is allowed to continue down the path we're on. Enough is enough.
 
Deerlove, being a big supporter of states rights, I do think that we need the Feds involved in land ownership. The problem with the Feds is the left wing fanatical employees that work for them, ie the USFW.

We already have enough anti hunting zealots in this country why give land transfers to those type of people. I like it as is!
 
Oneye,

All your complaining just sounds like a bunch of class warfare. If you left your rich bashing out of it you might get some merit. There are plenty of lucky not rich sportsmen who have an easier hunt than the antelope island hunt and I take nothing away from their experience. There are plenty of wealthy men who hunt at a physical level that you and I can't comprehend.

The fact is wealth doesn't make or break you as a sportsman and neither does the effort you put into your hunt.

I think its funny what you and others consider a lot of money here. And then how you think lobbying works. Or what is going to keep USFWS from listing animals. or what the average sportsman is.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-15 AT 03:45PM (MST)[p]When you bring anything of value or merit to the conversation or even the slightest bit of science or truth for that matter to the conversation I will respond appropriately. I'll refrain from giving a second thought to uninformed, uneducated, child's play that spew from individuals like yourself who try to protect the same failed direction and policies we are witnessing now.
 
Oneye,

you brought no "science or truth" here. Just a general hatred for a rinky dink wildlife group and "rich people" Your very first post on these forums was nothing but an attempt to spread propaganda. THATS IT. For all we know you work for PETA.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-15 AT 04:06PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-15 AT 04:05?PM (MST)

You know what SFW has taken more tags out of hunters hands then PETA ever dreamed of. Bring in science to show how helpful auctioning off tags has been for wildlife to the rich. Bring statistics that show how hunters have more tags than when SFW was formed. Too bad none of that information exhists. If you would like to be relevant, bring up a valid point, you've just spewed diarrhea of the mouth, and know nothing about what you are talking about. You're using a finger pointing tactic and not an information tactic. Keep spewing, until you can come up with a valid argument I'm done replying to you until I see something valid.
 
I've been a long-time lurker on this forum and not a poster, so I'm sure nobody here will care or take me seriously, but nothing gets my blood boiling quite like farce we have been fed about this land transfer, so I had to chime in. I think I can safely say that most of us here LOVE to hunt on public lands and have probably enjoyed some of the best times of our lives there. There is no single bigger threat to out hunting heritage right now than this land transfer scheme. It bothers me that we as sportsmen aren't getting more involved in protecting these lands! The state has a terrible track record of selling off public land given to them (look up the trust lands they've sold for education) and we have no reason to believe they would act differently here. Land would be sold to corporations and wealthy citizens, and the regular Joes (like me, and I assume, most everyone here) will be left out. While there is nothing wrong with being wealthy (and I am sure there are countless wealthy men and women who are far greater hunters than I), the thought of OUR public lands being sold off to the elite, so that the rich can have private hunting grounds on lands that used to be ours, is downright offensive to me. They haven't earned the right to that land any more than the rest of us. This is an issue that goes above party lines, and I have never been more disappointed and disgusted with politicians than I am with the Republican party right now. I'd vote Obama in for the rest of my life before I would cast a vote for the corrupt Governor Herbert right now. And if any of you care about hunting on public land, I suggest you take your vote elsewhere too. While we can all complain about how liberal the BLM or USFW is, at least they are protecting the land. I'd rather see closed roads than no trespassing signs on the places I love to hunt. And SFW is in bed with our terrible politicians, and only cares about the money, not the average sportsman or fish and wildlife. We as sportsmen need to send them a message, and keep money away from SFW and our votes away from those who would take away our land.
 
Im glad some sportsmen are opening their eyes. This land transfer is a terrible thing for our land, natural resources, and recreation in general. The feds don't do a perfect job managing it, but with all the different arguments on the land they do a decent job, at least they're managing it and not saling it.

Sportsmen should be standing together on this, but instead this one rouge group SFW has decided to stand by the state instead of sportsmen. SFW has done little to nothing but take tags out of the average sportsmens hands and waste and pocket or money. It's time to say no more to this group that continually stands against everything the average hunter should stand for . I am not against rich hunters, but rather hunting only being an opportunity for the rich. I am not against auction tags, but 100% of that money should return to the public resource that gained it. Slowly sportsmen are waking up to this group that has wasted our time over the years and done us worse then they have good.

Good luck SFW, I can't wait to see sportsmen wake up and watch you crumble.
 
Just a thought / question. The Dixie Chapter of SFW is not SFW at large. Correct?

If so, the Dixie Chapter is likely representing its members well. The Republic party has an enormous amount of support for the transfer in Southern Utah.
 
My thought on this is, why would a chapter come out and say this? Every other sportsmen organization made it clear they do not support this. SFW is I'm bed with the Utah legislature so SFW of course is going to support their nonsense. My guess is instea of coming out as an entire organization this gives them some reasonable plausible deniability if sportsmen don't like it. Unless they come out like all the other actual sportsmen groups and say they are against this transfer, then this is their stance on the issue, it was expected anyway. It's not just this fact that SFW should be ignored by the hunting community, they have done nothing for those they depend on and are supposed to be supporting.
 
Ive never liked SFW I have always felt like they are a bunch of leeches no different than our govt. Its just a bunch of rich guys and everyone is shaking everyones hand. when you see their bigshots at the shows all they want to do is hang out with their imporntant colleagues. You dont see them talking with diy hardcore hunters, they are hanging out with trigger pullers. I'll never give them a single donation of my hard earned cash.
 
>Ive never liked SFW I have
>always felt like they are
>a bunch of leeches no
>different than our govt. Its
>just a bunch of rich
>guys and everyone is shaking
>everyones hand. when you see
>their bigshots at the shows
>all they want to do
>is hang out with their
>imporntant colleagues. You dont see
>them talking with diy hardcore
>hunters, they are hanging out
>with trigger pullers. I'll never
>give them a single donation
>of my hard earned cash.
>


Amen there are groups that actually have sportsmens views in mind.
 
>Just a thought / question.
>The Dixie Chapter of SFW
>is not SFW at large.
> Correct?
>
>If so, the Dixie Chapter is
>likely representing its members well.
> The Republic party has
>an enormous amount of support
>for the transfer in Southern
>Utah.

The Republican government of Davis county, as well as the majority of its citizens opposed the AI hunt, yet $FW pushed it through, so I guess they only represent until someone waves cash in their face?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
The average sportsmen should not hope for tags to reach the price of a new car or even a new house, because the average sportsmen will be spent out of te game. SFW is for everything you shouldn't stand for in public hunting. If you support them you are digging your own grave.

The state of Utah has continually showed how little they can manage our natural resources and SFW supports the land transfer because they are in bed with your tax money. Look at the Great salt lake, just this year they cut phragmites control funding and passed an initiative to find a bear river project that will damn the bear river, cost taxpayers billions, and lower the level of te GSL by 2-3 more feet from the already 18 feet low it already is. This will be devastating to waterfowl hunting, air quality, and hurt the ecosystem terribly. Guess what, it's completely unnecessary, yet stupid Utah representatives fund these useless projects that cost us millions in tax dollars and destroy our natural resources for a buck. Do you really think a sportsmen organization should be supporting a transfer to a crooked state legislature who can't see any use in something but developing it or making big money off t despite what it does to the beauty and longevity of our natural resources.

If you consider yourself any type of a sportsmen stop buying your own way to your grave.
 
I'm a sportsman in a state where less than %2 of the land is controlled by the federal government. Why is our hunting so good? We don't have draws on the private land. We don't have a preference point system. We have a multibillion dollar hunting industry. Funny how it doesn't feel like a grave. Every year I buy a license and it comes with a whole bunch of deer and turkey tags on it. How could that be?

Oneye,

Your just another wimp who likes to cry on the internet about the evil rich people that bought a tag. You know what's funny? They don't care if you don't think they are sportsmen. They don't go hunting to satisfy YOUR requirements of them.
 
I shouldn't even reply to someone who is adding nothing relevant to the conversation but I'll let you know a few things.

If you don't know Utah's legislature or how they work then you should stop adding useless information on this thread. They've shown exactly what they will do with a public resource with wildlife. They auction it off and squeeze every dollar they can out of it and could care less when they cut funding to keep the wildlife and their habitat healthy. Hell no that land is valuable for real estate we've got to develop it for money now and forever lose it.

Now you also obviously have no clue what the west is like by this post you just made so I can take you as irrelevant to the conversation as I thought in the first place. Utah is the second driest state in the nation and therefor has very delicate ecosystems in which these wildlife need to survive. Utah would for sure develop the hell out of, sale, and lease as much to oil and gas as they could. Mule deer populations are nothing like whitetails, so again you are irrelevant.

As I stated before I am not against the rich hunting, but I am against hunting becoming only for the rich, which is what Utah and SFW propagate, everything and anything in the name of money, no matter what we stand to lose.

Tristate you're fun to laugh at but nothing more. You add no relevance to the conversation, and aren't standing up for the wildlife that you enjoy to pursue. It's a pity we have folks like you out there who are clueless and yet still have an opinion on the matter. I could go on, but I'll just let you continue your posts of useless and uniformed information.
 
Oh and did I mention this whole thing is an illegal action by the state and it has no chance of passing? Don't you wonder why after the deadline for their demand passed they haven't sued the federal government? Hmm I wonder if thats because they know in a court of law they would inevitably lose? Instead our corrupt legislature will drag this out and waste tax dollars so that a few of those representatives can keep their jobs that depend heavily on this debate continuing because their whole career depends on it (Representative Ivory). The states forfeited and waived all rights and all future rights. This turnover of land has no leg to stand on. But hey I'm sure you didn't know any of that either, because you have no information, just clueless opinions.
 
Hey oneye, we have craploads of mule deer here too. We manage and hunt them. Guess what its Reeeeeeeealy dry where they live here too. Guess what we went through the worst drought in our recorded history about four years ago. Mule deer seem fine. All those landowners just couldn't figure out how to manage their fragile little ecosystems out there I guess.

I love how leess than %1 of your tags are bought by the rich people you hate but somehow that miniscule part of the hunting tags is making it "only for the rich".

Can you smell the BS you shovel?
 
Well Utah isn't Texas, and apples will never be oranges. You don't understand Utah and somehow you are comparing two unlike things and convincing yourself you have a point. You continue to dig a deeper hole and show how little you know or understand. Research isn't your strong point. So let's talk percentages. It depends on the year but roughly 25-50% of Utahs PUBLIC once in a lifetime tags go to auction depending on the species and unit.These tags they auction are for limited entry hunts that are hard for the public to draw and there are few tags for them, so again you can't use you're figure of less than 1% because it isn't true when you're looking at the tags and hunts themself. Also just know the hunt expo is not the only place these tags are given and auctioned off. There are auctions across the state all year that these tags get sold as well.

As for your comment on the rich. I never said I hated anyone, I simply said it isn't right for a group to be given a public resource to sale like it is theres. The public owns those tags what right does a private group have to be making money off of them? The tags are public and the wildlife are public... So none. If that's how this works II would like a tag I can sale every year and make big bucks on.
 
If you want to start including caveats to your argument then you have already lost. You start throwing out crazy numbers of %25-%50 that's bull. Pic a number then argue for it. For this entire thread you stated hunting is becoming a rich mans game. You never stated hunting for really big high quality game in special limited areas for highly exclusive species is a rich mans game.

So now we see this isn't about the future of big game hunting. It's really an argument over the really big rare trophy hunting opportunities. YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE FUTURE OF HUNTING. You just want more exclusive hunting for yourself. Do you here the toilet flushing? Yep there went all the righteousness you thought you had.
 
Why is there no fear that the federal gov. may some day auction off a lot of these same public lands to pay for our national debt?


There's always next year
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-15 AT 06:41PM (MST)[p]You're such a simple minded individual you can't even understand the information I have out before you. Here's a simple minded scenarios I to help your mind understand: When there is only 2 resident moose tags for a unit, and one is sold off at auction that is 50% of the tags available to the public. These tags take 18+ years to draw and are OIL. Understand or are you even more simple than that? Generalizing information and trying to throw out misleading bogus figures like 1% is when you lose the argument.

As for the rest of your BS I can see you are pretty clueless and really have no knowledge on the subject, so have fun in your small minded box, play safe.
 
A simple google search will answer this question for you. Also Americas debt is not nearly as important as some might think. Much of our debt we owe to ourselves. Research will tell you more than the exaggerated news on TV.
 
I would just like to hear it from you.
Why are you not afraid of the Federal gov. selling off our/their public lands?




There's always next year
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-15 AT 07:00PM (MST)[p]The majority of public lands in the United States are held in trust for the American people by the federal government and managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), the United States National Park Service, Bureau of Reclamation, or the Fish and Wildlife Service under the Department of the Interior, or the United States Forest Service under the Department of Agriculture. Other federal agencies that manage public lands include the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and the United States Department of Defense, which includes the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

These lands are owned by the public and managed by the federal government. You and I own the land, why should we support giving it to the state?
 
Oneye,
so if the state took over control of managing our public lands, how in the world could they just up and sell the property they don't own?
Are you assuming a little much?
I'm not saying I'm in support of the state doing that but it does seem you have the same old "sky is falling" syndrome as always.
Just another topic.



There's always next year
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-15 AT 08:02PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-13-15 AT 07:58?PM (MST)

Because the state is demanding ownership of the land and right in the bill for the transfer it states that the state would have the right to use and dispose of the land as they see fit. If this land changed hands tomorrow Utah has no where near the money to manage these millions of acres. They can't even manage the small state lands they own now. How would they afford it? Selling it off and leasing as much as they could to oil and gas. That's all this state cares about is money, it doesn't matter the cost. Like I said they've proved that with our wetlands they continue to degrade.

Look at this simple part of the transfer demand: Utah does not want any national parks turned over except for the grand stair case monument which holds oil and coal reserves. Hmm I wonder why they specifically want that monument? It couldn't be for the coal and oil reserves they want to extract could it? This shows just how money driven and hungry these POS representatives are. They aren't hiding there plan, you just have to sift through the rubble to see it.
 
>Oneye,
>so if the state took over
>control of managing our public
>lands, how in the world
>could they just up and
>sell the property they don't
>own?
>Are you assuming a little much?
>
>I'm not saying I'm in support
>of the state doing that
>but it does seem you
>have the same old "sky
>is falling" syndrome as always.
>
>Just another topic.
>
>
>
>There's always next year

The state has demanded transfer of title and their own sanctioned study found that selling of land would likely be required to cover an $40,000,000-$60,000,000 annual shortfall. It also assumed stable oil prices (they have dropped 40% since the study was released) and consistent oil production increases of 15% (oil production has fallen over last 12 months). Both of those assumptions have already been proven false since the study was released, yet the idiots in the Legislature keep pushing it. The study also assumes the Feds will allow Utah to keep 100% of gas royalties instead of the current 50/50 split.

By the way, the American Lands Council (the Land Grab's chief proponent) has hired a new Communications Director... Ken Ivory's wife. They have yet to disclose her salary, but we know it will be in addition to the salary that State Rep. Ken Ivory himself is already taking from the ALC.

Just follow the money!

Grizzly
 
Thank you Grizzly, I'm glad there are people like you who care enough to actually know the facts about this land transfer.
 
Oneye is a full of crap book cooker who may very well be an anti- hunter. He supplies deliberately half spun information to try and rope goats. The Feds can sell and privatize land if they want to. They can specifically approve drilling of oil and gas too. He's trying to start class warfare with one example OF ONE DAMN MOOSE TAG. Meanwhile his method of harvest management still controls over %99 of all the big game tags in the state.

It wouldn't suprise me if oneye and grizzly are the same person.
 
I'm done with your antics. You're honestly one of the least intelligent people I've ever met. You are not a sportsmen, you are an uniformed, opinionated, clueless individual who adds nothing of relevance to this conversation or any other probably. Your babbling isn't fooling anyone on the true subject of the matter so I'll let you continue to tear down your intelligence (you have none). You have no information and incorrect information that you post on an Internet forum to be resilient of the truth.

It is uneducated,uninformed individuals with views like yours that are taking us down the scary path we are on. Rest assured I love hunting and will continue to do it for the rest of my life, and anti-sportsmen like yourself will be weeded out as the majority becomes aware of the true nature of the matter. Goodbye Tristate I can see you're one of those trolls that needs to be ignored.
 
>I'm a sportsman in a state
>where less than %2 of
>the land is controlled by
>the federal government. Why
>is our hunting so good?
> We don't have draws
>on the private land.
>We don't have a preference
>point system. We have
>a multibillion dollar hunting industry.
> Funny how it doesn't
>feel like a grave.
>Every year I buy a
>license and it comes with
>a whole bunch of deer
>and turkey tags on it.
> How could that be?
>
>
>Oneye,
>
>Your just another wimp who likes
>to cry on the internet
>about the evil rich people
>that bought a tag.
>You know what's funny?
>They don't care if you
>don't think they are sportsmen.
>They don't go hunting to
>satisfy YOUR requirements of them.
>

TRI is right on this one. The problem he doesn't get is that in Texas there isn't public land grazing. There isn't public land mineral mining. There isn't public land oil extraction. In Texas there would never be a THE DON or $fw because they couldn't consolidate power by greasing the DWR because there are too many private land owners. The Texas government isnt dominated by a religious group that group thinks everything. In Utah the government is like the mafia, its run by a few families and once your in, you write your own ticket. THE DON figured that out years ago. So TRI, your right, but that doesn't mean anything for this state, nor does what texas do have anything to do with Utah. Texas is a lot closer to New York, or Minnesota in game management than it is to Utah.

Now where he is wrong is that the "rich" DO care about what we do. The average guy in Utah isn't about restricting access to areas. They aren't about exclusivity to land, tags, game. See TRI, its $fw and their deep pocketed benefactors(mostly out of state guys) that spend the money to limit hunting to the average guy, so YES, they care about what we do, to the point that they spend millions to stop us from doing it
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I love this. You call me a troll when the very first post you ever made on these forums was to bash SFW and "rich people".

Keep spouting those lies along with your cooked books. %99 of the big game tags are still distributed by your favored methods. THE MESS YOU ARE IN IS %99 YOUR FALT. Just because evil rich people get to by a moose tag doesn't mean they are taking over the industry.


By the way Oneye, when every big game tag is restricted to draw only to satisfy your crying how will the state be able to justify ten thousand dollar restitution prices on animals that don't cost $500 to shoot. Good luck in the courts. Right now they can jack up those penalties because they can argue people are paying that much for the tags. Once you run off the rich people you hate that argument is gone.


Muley 73,

You should really ask Grizzly your question.
 
I love this one too. First we don't have mule deer and then we don't have mule deer in a desert. Now Hossblur says we don't deal with grazing and oil production. :D Do yall even have the slightest clue what goes on here?

Hossblur keep fighting for them tags with Oneye's cooked books.

Let me give you a little tip in life that Oneye missed.

If you want to argue a point to achieve your goal, DON'T LIE TO THE GUY YOU ARE ARGUING WITH.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-15 AT 11:31AM (MST)[p]Yep, Good Old Texas. The public land grazing Capitol
Of the world!!

How much public land YA got there Tritip??
A couple million acres or so??



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
So grazing King, what if every livestock owner couldn't buy an
AUM on National Forest and BLM lands at the rate they do now
And had to lease grazing rights from a private corporate landowner??

How many western ranchers are left.


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Tell that to your philosophical / ideological twin
Cliven Bundy.

Your version of supply & demand is just like
Walmart competing with mom and pops small
Business.

Hell who doesn't want to sink their teeth into a
Nice genetically modified Monsanto Frankenstein
Steak.

Your mythological political ideas over rode your ass
Long ago BOY. Now it's over riding what little gray
Matter you have left.


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-15 AT 04:12PM (MST)[p]It's all substance Tritip, you just can't accept it
cause it goes against the drivel you've been lead
to believe for your entire miserable existence.
Your narrow little mind can't consider for even a second
that the Texas way don't apply worldwide.

You pull stock off subsidized AUM's on public land
and force ranchers to either raise / buy feed for those
animals or lease grazing rights on private property for
the entire year and they go away.

But you wouldn't know any damn better BOY cause you live in a state with no public land.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Just don't entertain fools. It's a waste of energy to argue with someone with such a simple clueless mind. Let him further degrade his intelligence and character himself. We will continue to move forward.
 
>one eye,
>You sure write different here on
>MM compared to how you
>post on Utah Wildlife Forum???
>

Lonetree's apprenticeship program seems to be working very well.
 
I just read a lot into the research he provided links too, and off of his website. It's good relevant information and makes a lot of sense. If you haven't read it I would, we aren't headed in the right direction with management styles and conclusions being made to help wildlife.
 
It doesn't help your cause when you call anyone or everyone an idiot that doesn't understand or questions some of those other studies being done.


There's always next year
 
I reacted the same way I put it across I realize that isn't the best way to get it across, but if you keep yourself in the dark and don't educate yourself, telling someone they haven't is just truthful. You can't say the way I get replied to hasn't made me this way a little.
 
"SFW has been established you have less hunting opportunity
-There has been great loss in tag numbers since their establishment
- deer populations have decreased steadily over the last few decades since they were established
- they continue to use failed management strategies that have been proven ineffective"

Agree, with turkeys being the exception.

The reason $FW started was because of failed management practices
Having a negative effect on wildlife. Great idea.

Now the negative effects continue and we are letting politicians
And a few guys from The People's Republic Of Southern Utah dictate
Policy and management according to anecdotal data, political favors
And money.

Hell we've got a Wildlife Board that went rogue and rewrote a mule deer
Plan that was barely through its first year. Only 1 sportsmans group was
In favor of what they did. Public input was a sham from the beginning and
Was topped off by Jake reading a proposal that was slid to him months in advance.

I guess if your dad wrote the proposal you'd feel obligated to defend it and
The system that made it all possible.





"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Are there more sheep in utah now than before the formation of SFW? How about mountian goats? How about mule deer and elk SPECIFICALLY in the units that auction tags are sold in? Answer those questions Oneye.
 
Oneye, how would you manage our deer herd to make it so more people can hunt and to bring our deer herds up?

What science would you use to turn our deer herds around?

You said:
"As a sportsman consider these points:

-Since SFW has been established you have less hunting opportunity
-There has been great loss in tag numbers since their establishment
- deer populations have decreased steadily over the last few decades since they were established
- they continue to use failed management strategies that have been proven ineffective"

I am curious as to how you would have done things differntly to prevent these things from happening?

Now let me clairfy I am not supporting SFW, but I dont put all the blame of our failing deer herds on them. Also I dont agree with the land transfer. But you peeked my intrest with your claims and I would like to know what your soulution is.





Jake H. BIG BONE HUNTING Page on Facebook.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
Oneye Wrote: "in reality predator control has shown in countless studies that with predator removal deer populations DO NOT THRIVE."

Boy are you a babe in the woods. Take away what little predator control we have and watch deer numbers go down. We need a lot more predator control!! You can read what you want to read from those antiquated biologists who are the reason we are where we are now.
 
Oneye said:

"Our deer herd will be back to the 250,000 level before you know it and it will be due to biological reasons very few on here or at SFW can even understand. Keep preaching predator control and deer transplants"

Dont just throw out statements like this and not back them up with some facts, You basicly just told us we are to stupid to understand the problem with our deer herds.

And again, Im not a huge SFW supporter, and definitely dont agree with everything they do. So keep that out of your argument.

Jake H. BIG BONE HUNTING Page on Facebook.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
Here, for starters educate yourself and actually search and seek out information that is proven rather than take the bull crap we are fed like 90% of sportsmen.

Look at this website: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/

-Vist the malformations in wildlife and effects on our ecosystem sections. Then read the studies that have been done in the name of sound science, rather than political and PR reasons. This should take you a couple days to look through all these studies and read the information. Then further research it for other articles on the internet proving the same thing.

Wildlife management is going all wrong. Predator control shows no positive affects on overall deer population growth. Sure you save a few deer from being eaten, but those deer are still dying yielding no better population growth. Pneumonia/white muscle disease in bighorn sheep and moose has had many studies done on why they have declined so rapidly. It is due to mineral deficiencies affecting their biological systems not predators causing these massive die offs.

The "habitat improvements" people so often believe move us forward are in reality putting herbicides on the ground affecting the biological development of our mule deer. Herbicides are used in almost every habitat project where seeding occurs to prevent weeds from coming up. In areas where these herbicides are used you see deer with malformations (i.e. under bites, cactus bucks incapable of breeding,birth defects, lower birth rates, and endocrine problems). These very projects you would like to believe are beneficial to our deer herds are actually poisoning them. Would you feel safe putting herbicides on your food or your childrens food every day? Then why do you think feeding herbicides to our wildlife would be okay? These chemicals are very persistent in the ecosystem and cause reproductive problems, immunity problems, development problems and more making deer and especially young susceptible while developing. So in the end it is not the predator that is causing mule deer declines, its the other things we keep doing that are in the end causing large scale declines. Look at moose back east, they've shown steep declines because of mineral deficiencies there are many studies out there you just have to look for the information.

Read through the studies on the website I provided. You can't deny sound science. And as lonetree puts it "no one cares how you feel about it" these are proven studies that have shown good information,we can't continue to avoid studies like this because they are scary.
 
Well finally Oneye lays his cards on the table. He is some brainwashed crusader against the evils of GMO's.

I like how he claims this is science so we can't argue it.

ACTUALLY THAT IS EXACTLY WHY WE ARGUE IT! Science is studied and restudied and argued and pondered. Just because someone studied something and wrote a paper and put it on the internet doesn't make it LAW. And there is a difference.

40 years ago a study was done on Kerr WMA here in Texas on the genetic inferiority of spike deer. It has reshaped and continues to reshape deer management within the state of Texas. What's amazing is you pretty much talk to any biologist within the state and they all agree it is BAD SCIENCE.

Your Website "proves" didley squat.

If you think predators aren't a significant variable in deer herd management you have completely lost touch with reality. If you think habitat restoration isn't absolutely imperative for species revival you have completely lost touch with reality. Can minerals be important? You bet. Water availability, escape corridors, migration interruption, and 1000 other variables can all reshape and even destroy herds.

But I have sad news for you and any other person that thinks GMO's are the silver bullet whipping out (insert name here) you need to lay off the whackytobaccy.

One more thing I thought I should let you know. Almost every single thing on your plate of food is a GMO. Very Very Very few things we eat are not GMO's. Every piece of corn, wheat, beef, chicken, broccoli, cabbage. ALL OF IT IS A GMO. Your grandparents ate giant heaps of GMO's and fed it to your parents who fed it to you.

Can there be bad GMO's? You bet. How do you think we got weapons grade Anthrax. :D

Can there be good ones? You bet if you consider you being alive as good.
 
The State of Utah does not have the money to manage public lands. Their whole plan was based off of higher than ever energy prices, which are down drastically since the study was done. One bad wildfire season which is what we are headed for this year would wipe us out. Then the fire sale of land/resources would no doubt start. I dont like the feds, but I trust our local govmt. less! Can you imagine how many cows would be out there!! :)
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-15 AT 02:01PM (MST)[p]Like RMEF president said "I don't always agree with the feds, but id rather work with a devil I know than with a devil I don't"
 
Oneye, do you hold a degree in wildlife biology?

Have YOU ever written and submitted actual scientific papers for review? Have you taken Botany courses, and animal science courses?

Tell me what I stated in the last post that was wrong. Tell me how YOU are a scientist.

Like I said before YOUR very first post on these forums was to attack a group of people. That tells me you have nothing to offer here but ulterior agendas and questionable motives.
 
It's refreshing to see that we can have an intelligent, informed debate with divergent ideas while remaining cordial and civil!

Oh wait, no we can't because anyone who differs must be a fuggin' idiot! This is MM after all!

carry on.

Zeke
 
You can't deny results of countless studies determig the same thing. These are good studies and people are scared of them because they aren't easily fixed problems. The easy ways out are to deny what's been scientifically studied, or find an easier answer to make people feel better (I.e- predator control). To get more tags you need more deer, and to get more deer you have to work on long term solutions not short term feel better methods. Resisting scientific data doesn't change things or move us forward, it keeps you in the past and further dragging along failed policies. If we resisted science just because we see it as weird or unheard of, none of you or me would have the many advances I'm every day life we have now. Science and sound management of both our wildlife and the habitats they depend on are the keys to a better future. If you resist it, we're just stuck spinning our wheels.

I went after SFW because they stand for these failed management policies and cost sportsmen and taxpayers millions. They've also took a big stand against those that made them who they are.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-15 AT 05:27PM (MST)[p]Yes you can deny them. You might as well be claiming global warming is the reason for wildlife declines. There is mountains of evidence supporting predator control also. I can give you links to those websites also. Doesn't mean they are correct either.

First I can tell you that looking at species management across such a broad scale whether that is biologically or worse geographically is an exceptionally dangerous action that you and most other "concerned" sportsmen engnge in. It is not properly applying science.

For instance can removing a predator from one area do very little to aid a herd?Sure. Can you go to a different area and remove the same species of predator from a same species but different herd and have spectacular results? You bet. Things aren't near as cut and dry as you believe.

Also there is absolutely nothing you can do that you can just do it once step away from and expect suddenly all the results will be what you want and last forever and very very rarely do Great conservation decisions get made by legislating against something. You must always consider wildlife to be dynamic and changing along with the human forces placed upon that same wildlife.
 
>Are there more sheep in utah
>now than before the formation
>of SFW? How about
>mountian goats? How about
>mule deer and elk SPECIFICALLY
>in the units that auction
>tags are sold in?
>Answer those questions Oneye.

Yes there are more sheep, most of which were transplanted off AI or out of state, $fw gets no credit for that.

Havent counted goats lately, but $fw never came about for the perpetuation of goats, so they get credit for them?

The years that $fw came about were during some absolute brutal winters where we lost huge numbers of our deer to winter kill. Are there more deer? Sure, there are more deer than there were after losing that huge population to winter. But after numerous "Emercency" actions to raise revenue to save deer, they have FAILED so spectacularly they are second only to Tony Romo in the playoffs.

Are there more elk in the units they sell tags? NO. The elk numbers exploded solely when Utah went to spike only. $fw is given tags for most units in the state, they had less than nothing to do with it, in fact they fight to stop spike only hunts on their "favorite" units. According to your hero Mossback, the quality of elk have gone down, is he a $fw hater too?


For the last decade or more we have had record numbers of ducks, geese, swans, cranes. We have had 100 plus day seasons, and continually have more access to better land. DU is the biggest player in this happening. THEY DON'T GET 200 welfare tags, a tax free party every spring, and a seat in the capitol. DU actually does something, yet they don't beg on the corner for every dollar available. DU IS SUCCESFUL!!
Our moose population is plumeting.

We have wolves, despite all the "saving" that $fw does.

We have 150,000 less hunters, less hunter days, less access.

Lastly, in Texas most, if not all grazing and oil production is done on PRIVATE LAND. I know you support the Obama line about how much is done, but its on PRIVATE LAND.

Lastly, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, and Montana graze your cattle. The majority of hay produced in this state, and those states that goes on the market goes to Texas.

But, much like your hero Shelia Jackson Lee, you run your mouth, don't know anything, and expect to be taken seriously.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
You think I am saying that SFW fixed all this and that is just a stupid assumption on YOUR part. But you and others can't make the same assumption that everything that is wrong is their fault either. Either is an illogical assumption.

As for grazing here in Texas, y'all acted like you can't graze cattle unless it's on federal land and wildlife can't exist where there is oil and gas production. Somehow we have done it for over a century.

Keep digging for excuses to bolster your illogical hate.
 
Wow....is it really this complicated??

Let's say we take SFW & all politics outta the equation......can we really do that??? To me a retard can figure this out......no need for SFW, Privatization, or any of the other debates going on here. But, ground still has to be "public" to make this work....if it's owned by an individual.....his choice then.

Knock down predators a little bit more than we are doing.....enhance habitat, winter ranges high on that list, please & maybe......just MAYBE let's let some fires (in a good way) clean out some of these friggin pinons & junipers???

My cliff-note thoughts....have more to say if we can be productive in thoughts.....tired of the bull$hit spewed by a few clowns anymore here.

Dare to say I am outta line....anyone, please!!
 
Okay I feel you replied in a decent manner this time so I discuss this with you a little. Predator studies have proven nothing but what we already knew... Predators kill deer. They have not shown to in the long term boost mule deer numbers. Yes you'll get beter fawn survival on a good winter year and less predators, but those deer are dying months down the line due to other reasons than predators and you are still losing those deer.

Take a big horn sheep study that was done, I believe their is a link on the website I posted somewhere. Bighorns in many herds show periods of growth and crash once they get to higher population levels. The sheep in the study would develop white muscle disease because they were very deficient in selenium which is vital to normal biological processes. That group of sheep had much lower lambing rates, higher disease and death rates, and showed very little in recruitment. Another group of sheep in the study was supplemented with mineral locks saw much greater results in all those areas. If you would like to talk to someone who could throttle you on the subject email the person on the website I provided, he knows much more about it. The problem is this isn't a simple game especially the farther we move into the future. It's not as simple as killing a predator saves a deer, sorry we've tried that and gained nothing. Repeating the same mistakes over and over gets us no where.

Now if you'll discuss rather than argue I don't mind responding to you.
 
Winter range and habitat are important, but we got to do it better than we do now. Predator control has been proven ineffective, haven't we tried that over and over.... And over and over, and yet we still haven't seems the boom in populations we expect? It can't take this much convincing to get people to realize predator control doesn't work.
 
Several years ago when the Dedicated Sportsmen program first started in Utah the southern region signups had to go to Cedar City. There we went thru an orientation with the DWR. This one biologist got up and told the overflowing crowd that increasing the take of lions did not help the deer herd. I collared him and asked how he could stand there and make a statement like that. Here was his response to me: He said that most of the lions being taken were males and most or nearly most of the females were left. There were more cubs growing to adulthood because the males were not there to kill off some of them.

I certainly am not a learn-id lion biologist and supposed that what he said was fact, but the logic floored me. WHY DON'T THEY JUST OPEN THE LION SEASON UNIL THE QUOTA OF FEMALE LIONS ARE HARVESTED. Give me a break and this goes along with a lot of what has been written by the old DWR biologists to sidestep an issue.

Here is an interesting side note - one month ago a friend of mine was behind Elsinore, just above town and run across two cougars running together.
 
Maybe you need to talk to the California DWR representatives, if they are not fired by now, by the LIBS in that state. They were wondering why the sheep by Lake Tahoe were dying off, and concluded they were climbing to the tops of the mountains and not coming down because of the lion population. They were starving to death.
 
We know specifically that the Sierra Madre bighorn in California was whipped out by Mountian lions. I can remember one of the funniest pictures I ever saw was a collared mountain lion eating a collared bighorn.

Oneye I have yet to see a single wildlife study on the complete removal of predators from an ecosystem. When these states set up predator management goals they set them up to actually be sustainable year after year and not effectively removing the predators all together. The simple fact that the plans are set up to renew themselves year after year after year pretty much is destined to show predator management will not work.

Truly effective predator management is part, not all, of a proper conservation plan. It won't fix all your problems but it keeps others from getting in the way while you work on fixing others.


Go ask goat and sheep farmers in the southwest if predator control works. You don't need an internet report, just talk to a man who lived on the frontline.
 
Livestock aren't wildlife and aren't prone to the things wildlife go through. Predator MANAGEMENT is definetly an important part of the overall management of wildlife I never said managing predators wasn't import, predator suppression though in many studies has proven inaffective on growing mule deer herds .


Also for more FYI here is a link to where Utahs wasting your tax dollars. I guess lobbying for useless causes is more important than funding habitat projects or schools in our state: http://www.sltrib.com/news/2283816-155/consultants-raking-in-millions-on-utahs
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-17-15 AT 08:38AM (MST)[p]That is pretty funny Tristate. One of the funniest things I ever saw was a herd of Rocky mnt bighorn sheep dieing off in the Ruby mnts.
After getting with domestic sheep the kids in the herd all crawled under overhanging rocks and slowly died,
funny stuff
 
And see pneumonia outbreaks in bighorns can be traced back to deficiencies in their diet as well . It is usually due to a suppressed immune system or prior illnesses that make the problem worse .
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-17-15 AT 09:32AM (MST)[p]I think dieoffs are normally traced back to domestic sheep that wander over vast stretches of land.

Wishful thinking, but the fact is there were vast numbers of native bighorms in the west before we did what we do.
 
Oneye,

That's right deer ain't sheep. Deer actually survive better than sheep do when you remove some predators.


You are hung up on this idea that we need to quit studying and altering our management plans on one thing and cover just a couple of things that you have found websites about. That ain't science or how proper management occurs. I understand you are concerned about something but attacking a group to get your way doesn't help your cause. Here's an idea. Start raising heaps of money to study all those other things and find ways to combat nutrient blockage and deficiencies within fauna and approach the DWR and see if they will incorporate your findings into their general plans. That's how you get things done. Don't go attack someone. Just get your plan together.
 
Piper,

I agree. We know that the majority of our bighorns were destroyed from diseases transmitted through livestock. It is a sad story very similar to the Chestnut.
 
Tristate,

First, that collared cat eating a collared sheep, I NEED that pic, that is just good stuff!!

Next, no matter where you stand on the human caused portion, or what you call it, CLIMATE change is happening, and it is excellerated. Like it or not but the changes to our forsest via pine beatle, loss of sage, or what have you IS HAPPENING and it is devistating to the animals on the ends of the spectrums. Mule deer are suffering the loss of good sage, moose are suffering on the other end. Elk seem to be more biologically adaptable than the other two.

The single biggest factor in the loss of Mule Deer in Utah is I-15. It cut the state in half, seperating the mountain side from the desert side and in doing so STOPPED what was a deer population that moved between the two from winter to spring to summer to fall. It trapped deer on the colder, and now more urban side of the state, and killed hundreds of thousands of those that tried to cross it.

There were coyotes in the 60's and 70's. There were cats. Killing them helps, but isn't a determining factor.

Mule Deer in Utah were a migratory species, its no coincidence that when the freeway was completed, mule deer numbers started to crash.

Therefore, unless $fw can bulldoze I-15, what they are doing might help form time to time, or in isolated populations, but what they have done, and claim to do is UNSUCCESSFUL and ultimately one has to wonder how long you can fail completely before you are done away with. They are simply a lobbying group, that somehow they get there revenue from both ends, the sportsman and the state. The group, DWR they are supposed to be lobbying against, or standing up to, is also there sugar daddy. How can you be a voice in opposition to the DWR, if they are supporting you?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Hossblur,

Climate change is happening. It happened ten thousand years ago. It happens now. It will happen ten thousand years from now. THATS WHAT CLIMATE IS! You want to decide to fight tidal shifts while you are at it?

I can totally understand where you are coming from on your I-15 stance. Totally reasonable assumption. Could it be incorrect? Yep. Could it be right? Yep. Problem is just like your climate change you ain't going to stop I-15.

Does that mean you quit on all your other deer management? So I guess we all just give up? That's not how the human spirit works.
 
No, but also doesn't mean you hand a lobbyist group a ton of cash, get zero results in over 20 years, no accounting of what they did with the cash, and continue to blindly do so.

You wouldn't pay your mechanic year after year because he says he can fix your car, at some point he either does, or you find a new mechanic.

Clear away the fireworks, smoke bombs etc, and get down to facts. $fw came about to represent the average sportsman, and save the mule deer, they do neither, time for us to move on. They can stay in place, lobby all they want, but their lack of success should come with a loss of revenue from us. Simple buisness transaction. I doubt highly you are ever hired to do a mount, and still get paid even though you don't produce a product.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-17-15 AT 12:37PM (MST)[p]SFW is what is keeping us parked instead of moving forward. These transplants and predator controls as well as sage grouse, wolf, and land transfer lobbying's are a waste of our money. Like hossblur said SFW was founded to help sportsmen and mule deer, after 3 decades they have done neither and are no longer a useful entity after failing for so long. They do not deserve my tax money to lobby when they are a private group and getting paid via public resources. I would rather we could see where the millions of dollars they put in their pocket go. I'm not attacking the group, I'm finally calling them out for the failure they have given us the last 3 decades. If you don't do your job or what you intend to do and after 3 decades show no results, you need to be gone.

As I said before email the guy on that website and he will no undoubtedly school you on the Utah DWR, SFW, and wildlife management and science. He has conducted studies, observed malformations in road kill, and compiled much research of his own after researching the many studies that exist on this. I promise you he understands more about biological building blocks, affects of chemicals, and so on more than you or I ever will. He has been in touch with many of the people who have done those studies, DWR officials, and so on. The problem is SFW has the financial cloud to make decisions despite how uneducated and unsuccessful they have proven to be. Their methods of deer transplants that cost a ton of money per deer, and yield no real results, as well as the predator control are PR used to boost their membership and support giving them an even darker cloud hanging over our state. Predators have been proven in some studies to keep a herd from rebounding if they are far below population objectives, but as a state with the current studies we are at 330,000+ deer as of last years estimates. We will see growth this year again because we had a winter that was warmer than I've ever seen. It was 60 degrees most of January and February here, with only a few snow storms this winter. I don't remember more than a one week period where there was snow on the ground in the deers winter range where I live. Weather will drive the growth, but as I was saying, if predators are a big factor we should see major population growth this year and it should not be killed off by the next big winter if predators are the real issue in this state. I believe there are much bigger reasons for populations struggling but we'll see.

Email the guy on that website, you'll get quickly educated on the subject.
 
Then quit being a titty-baby and YOU go fix it.

Have you ever heard the saying "lead, follow, or get out of the way"?

There is no follow up option of cry for years on the internet.

Go lead. Quit crying. You have the answers. You are the greatest. You know who is and isn't an "average sportsman". YOU GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND DO IT.

Your like a guy who cries you want to be in a race but you are too chicken to start your motor and every time every body laps you, you shoot them the bird.

When things are bad its SFW's fault. WHen things are good SFW couldn't have helped. Its like watching a bunch of teenage girls on anti-depressants.

The truth is yall got your panties in a not because you think your entitled to those deer tags. This is all a pissing match over who gets to kill big deer. That's all the hunting culture you have. A bunch of go nowhere crybabies that horn worship.
 
-Vouching for more tags= not being for horn porn
- They are public wildlife, so yes I do have a right to them just as much as you or any millionaire, no more, no less.
-I'm fine with the luck of the draw but cutting tags when it's not warranted isn't good management.
-Utah we don't run wildlife like farm animals, they aren't protected by no trespassing signs like some states, see we have access to our resources unlike some states with private ranches and fences that protect the wildlife. Tags are a much different system in this state.
-The info is already out there it has been released there's the science behind these ideas and they have already been brought to the table, but money talks louder than sound science so all you can do is spread the information and educate people.
 
Sfw has played a major role in turning Utah into a pay to play state! Its easily the best example of what I don't want to see happen in Idaho.

Justin
 
"-Vouching for more tags= not being for horn porn"

Not sure what you mean there.

"- They are public wildlife, so yes I do have a right to them just as much as you or any millionaire, no more, no less."

And nobody in SFW has said you don't have the same "right" to them. You can whip out your checkbook as fast as anyone else. If you don't have enough money you have just as much right to work harder or smarter and get it.

"-I'm fine with the luck of the draw but cutting tags when it's not warranted isn't good management."

Who says? You can't even state what they are managing for.

"-Utah we don't run wildlife like farm animals, they aren't protected by no trespassing signs like some states, see we have access to our resources unlike some states with private ranches and fences that protect the wildlife. Tags are a much different system in this state."

I know. I hunt in Utah too.

"-The info is already out there it has been released there's the science behind these ideas and they have already been brought to the table, but money talks louder than sound science so all you can do is spread the information and educate people."

There is a big difference between spreading information and calling people idiots on the internet.
 
Tri,

I know this is a waste of time, but I'll try to clear one point anyway. It's not just about 1% of the tags. It's about the shift on the general hunts. If it was 1% of the tags you'd never hear from me. SFW has been able to transform the state from a fairly free general hunt to fairly limited all around. The SFW has a trophy mentality. They sell their goods under the pretense that they are trying to "improve the herd." All they are really trying to to is move people like me off of the mountain so they can have a quite trophy general hunt every few years. SFW has pushed to cut hunting days, tag numbers (even when numbers and buck to doe ratios are up), and single handedly pushed through option 2.

You once told me - well its all about choice, chocolate or vanilla. My response is still the same: SFW turned the vanilla into chocolate. Vanilla is no longer available. (I like a twist by the way.)
 

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