Comments being taken on proposed cap on NR bonus point split!

DonMartin

DonMartin

Very Active Member
Messages
2,081
I know there are a lot of non-resident out there that look and read posts on this site.

As you may have heard, right now the Department is suggesting that a change be made regarding the 10% cap on tags that are issued for almost all of Arizona's big game animals except sheep, antlerless elk and javelina.

Currently in a number of big game hunts, the 10% cap is reached in the 20% Bonus Point draw. That draw, which is held first, is where 20% of the tags are given to those sportsmen and women with MOST bonus points for that hunt.

Take the Arizona Strip (Unit 13B) for instance.

75 tags were issued for that general hunt in 2014. That meant the first 15 tags (20% of 75 = 15)were issued to those who had the MAX bonus points and applied for that hunt.

Since the NR's with max points (147) far outweighed the residents(9), it was obvious that NR's would and in fact did 7 tags during that first round.

That meant that none of the other 60 Strip tags were available to NR's, no matter how many points they had.

AZ Game & Fish is proposing that a 50-50 split be made to ostensibly give 5% of the tags to the top NR bonus point holders while the additional 5% could be AVAILABLE to all NR's ,irregardless of the bonus points they had.

I'm not going to debate whether this is right or is wrong, and why this is being done. But I was told that it started when NR's complained to the Department and Commission that unless they had max points, they couldn't draw any PREMIUM tags.

But I've also been told that the 50-50 split is NOT written in stone yet! That is the RECOMMENDATION from the Department to the Commission. The Department and Commission are taking informal comments at this time on what YOU think it should be.

There are options..leave it as it is (10% to the max bonus point holders), or make the split any way you want; (20-80, 30-70 60-40) etc. It could be split any number of ways...and the Department and Commission wants to hear from YOU the NR sportsmen.

There will be some debate about this at the April Commission meeting, and then at the August Commission meeting it will be finalized. It will become the way the Department does business starting on January 1, 2016.

If you have an opinion I strongly suggest you write to the Arizona Game & Fish Department and/or the Arizona Game & Fish Commission at 5000 West Carefree Highway, Phoenix, AZ 85086.

It is just like everything in life.

If you don't bother to take the time to express your opinion, then when the final decision comes down, don't complain!

Be involved! Believe me the Commission is very interested in hearing from you on this.

The Department proposal is 50-50: if you agree with that, fine, let the Commission know that. If you don't agree, write and tell them why...and give them your suggestion.

Don Martin
Kingman, AZ
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-15 AT 02:41AM (MST)[p]It's not just a Premium tag deal.

These are the number of tags that were available to NR in the 1-2 Pass, early archery in the 2014 draw:

3B, 3 out of 7
4A, 2 out of 16
4B, 9 out of 12
5BN, 1 out of 16
5BS, 6 out of 22
6A, 41 out of 77
6B, 4 out of 15
11M, 3 out of 8
16A, 1 out of 1
19A, 1 out of 1
21, 1 out of 1
22, 1 out of 2


Early rifle:

22N, 1 out of 3
 
Honestly, with the changes in the systems that commonly occur, I wish all states would eliminate all point systems and go back to "luck of the draw". EVERYONE on an even playing field with NR's allotted 10% of the tags.

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
WapitiBob:

I sure don't dispute your numbers; just saying that the reason that this issue was started was apparently due to complaints by non-residents to the Department or the Commission about the inability to draw PREMIUM tags.

I know you read the data a lot and many out there respect your opinion. So what do YOU think about the proposal?

I just finished teaching a Supplemental Hunter Ed class and had 43 people there from all over America, but mostly the West. We discussed this issue and opinions varied.

Sounded like those who had been in the system a long time generally opposed the change, but those coming in, or with less than max points, thought it might be a good idea.

Some good talking points were made by both sides.

Bottom line is non resident sportsmen need to get engaged in this issue NOW while it is still in the formative stage, and not AFTER when it is decided.

Don Martin
 
How about a split based on the ratio of max point holders versus non-max point holders. That way the max point holders still get the most preference for their time and money invested and the others get at least a chance at a tag, albeit slim. As the max point holders work through the system, more tags become available to the other applicants. Set a floor at 50-50, 60-40 or whatever.
 
I am having a hard time deciding if this is a good idea or not. I know there are people not applying anymore because they feel like there is no hope of ever having a premium tag again. This has happened in my own family. We all had max, and now we have all drawn our tag. I still put in for elk and deer, but some of my family decided they were done. I like the idea of at least having a chance to draw a strip tag again, but on the elk side, I like knowing that if I put in for 10 years, I can draw a certain archery elk tag. I am not a very lucky person when it comes to drawing tags. I usually get one, when they have to give me one, because I am in the max pool. It will take longer now to get into the max pool. I do think 50 50 is a good split though.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-15 AT 03:33PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-15 AT 11:50?AM (MST)

Don, my opinion is probably like yours;

Guys on the cusp of drawing a unit they've waited for will be upset. Their wait is about to double.

Guys/kids just getting in will have a better shot at lower and mid tier units.

Residents will get an additional 5% of the tags.

I drew a cpl years ago, will be 59 in a month and realize I will never draw an early unit 1 tag again. I'm OK with that and will apply for late rifle, knowing I'll never go longer than 3 years to draw. Had I not drawn that tag in 2013 with 11 points (as an alternate), I still would not have drawn and going into 2015 I would finally have a measurable chance to draw. I would probably be upset, knowing if I didn't draw in 2015 I would need to change units.

In my opinion, something had to be done. I've been getting the "pass thru" reports for 5 years now and have watched the hunts get locked up, one by one, as has Amber. I have no doubt this will pass and it will be a 5%/5% split. They have to increase the odds for the average NR and the only way to do it, is to pull the tags from the Bonus Pass.

I've talked openly about this for over a year now; it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody that is on this forum.
 
I do not have a dog in this fight as I am a resident. However, if I was NR I would like this new proposal if I did not have max points or a shade under max points. At least every year you will have a chance, albeit slim chance, to draw a tag if the 50/50 rule is passed. If the rules don't change AZ is nothing but a preference point state for NR's. If you are a young person just getting into the game you will have zero chance of ever drawing an early tag if the rules stay as they are now.


One more thing. If this passes, I'm afraid what will happen when the first NR posts online that they drew a coveted early tag the first time they applied. The moderators would have to really babysit this site.

IMO this is a good change for 90% of the NR's. The other 10%, not so much.

I agree with Don. If you have something to say, now is the time to speak up or don't complain when changes are made.
 
IMO the only NR's that have a logical reason to be against the change are those with max or close to max points. I am a NR that started applying in AZ 2 years ago. It was a little frustrating to say the least to find out that I and hundreds if not thousands of nonresidents who pay $160 plus app. fees per year have a 0% chance of EVER drawing an AZ Strip or Late Kaibab deer tag or a premium elk tag! I am all for the change with one exception, I would like to see 10% of the tags guaranteed to NR's instead of the current UP TO 10% of the tags.

Thanks for posting this thread to let us know that they are currently accepting comments from the public. They will definately be hearing my opinion.
 
+1 to wishing there never was a Ponzi pyramid points scheme anywhere... Can you imagine a lottery with points? Of course, the intent was to get nonresidents to buy a license they likely won't have any use for!

Anyway, I do have max deer points. When high points holders like started applying, there was a 10% cap and about half that filled in the max points rounds, with about half in the top pool being nonresident. Over time the 10% cap has heavily weighted the top pools nonresident and the 20% max points round effectively made it a true preference system. If they go to 50% of the nonresident cap going to the top pool, it will just return it to about the same number of tags as when the system started. That is about as decent of a compromise as there will be. But selfishly, I would rather draw my 13B tag first :)
 
I'm a resident so I don't have much of a say in this. Like mentioned earlier, if the current recommendation goes through with a 50/50 split your waiting period is about to double! Something that might fix this would be to leave it at 50/50 and give 50% of the tags to max point holders. For the remaining 50% of the tags put a multiplier system on the Non-Res tags and draw them that way. This would still give a Non-Res with 1pt (1x1=1 random number) a slim chance at drawing a premium tag, while a person with 10 Non-Res points (10X10=100 random numbers) in the draw. I would be satisfied with this system if I was a Non-Resident!
 
It will pass as more people will have the Opportunity to draw a premium hunt. Right now, probably 98% of NR's have no chance at many tags.

Its obviously good for the younger generation, which is the future of the sport.

Im a NR that has a lifetime license :) so therefore, Im a resident. As long as they don't change that law, I am happy.
 
At a time when the pendulum is swinging against the NR in many western states like NM, CO, and WY, I think AZ is missing a grand opportunity here. The state that becomes more friendly to NRs will garner more long term support. I am a resident but personally don't like the proposal as I don't feel it is anything more than a band-aid. Instead, and I am sure it will not be popular among residents, I think AZ should allocate 15% of tags to NR and cut the bonus pass to 10-15%. This will bring more NRs into the system and push them through faster. Think back to when USO temporarily won their lawsuit and had the NR quota lifted. Only about 2% more tags were given out and the impact was negligible.
 
If I was in charge, I'd set the Bonus Pass to "no more than 10% to NR" and add another "no more than 10% to NR" in the 1-2 Pass. The total NR take could be 20% but with the number of residents going thru the system I would guess the actual allotment closer to 15%.
The high point NR doesn't get shafted and with 10% available in the 1-2 Pass fewer NR will make it to the Bonus Pass over time freeing up more of those top end units for residents. With 10% available in the 1-2 Pass, more NR would be compelled to apply or remain in the system.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-15 AT 10:49AM (MST)[p]Im a AZ resident, I need to draw 13B one more time, then you can go ahead and mess with the draw system! Thanks
 
I wish they'd quit increasing tags in my favorite unit to hunt, 25 more last year and 25 more this year for arc hunts and don't get me started on additional rifle tags...gonna have to start hunting w blaze orange even on the archery hunts...

I know they say only 10% of tags go to nr, but sure hard to believe w all the out of state license plates!

I think the new proposal for nr hunters is about as good of a compromise as they can get, sucks for guys w 20 years in the draw, but gotta offer some incentive to new guys.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-15 AT 01:23PM (MST)[p]I know I am biased as a NR. But, would it be a big deal if they gave "up to" 15% of the tags to NR? That way they could still give the 10% to top point holders in the bonus point pool, and give 5% to everyone else in the random draw. NR with max points invested would not be hurt. NR with less than max would now have a chance at all tags. Most cases of top quality hunts this would mean between 2-5 tags increase for NR, and decrease from the resident.
 
I might sound biased on this, but I think 10% of the tags going to the Non-Resident hunter is more than fair. Most residents will likely never draw an early rifle bull tag, or a 13B rifle deer tag. Currently I would need 15-20 pts for a slim chance at those tags, pretty much the same waiting period as a non-resident. I have 22 pts for antelope, my odds of drawing that tag as Non-Resident right now are probably better than being a Resident.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-15 AT 01:23PM (MST)[p]Hello Don, Hope all is well.

For the sake of G&F budgets, it's critical to maintain the interest of those with less than max points.

The problem I've had with AZ is that they were effectively running a pure preference point system (with 100% tag utilization for NR's) in high demand points. Calling it a bonus point system implies that there was a 'chance' to draw when in fact it was 0%.

Regarding the proposed 50/50 split, I disagree with that %. Simply make a rule that 1 tag makes it to the lower rounds. We already know that the general hunting applicant pool regularly competes for very few tags. Statistically is makes little difference if 1 or 4 tags makes it to that pass. Give the single tag to the low point masses and keep them interested and engaged in the 'game' while not overly diminishing the 'value' of accrued points for those that have played by the rules the longest.

This seems to me to be the fairest solution to the problem. Get rid of the smoke and mirrors and let applicants know by means of an * by the hunt codes indicating that in the past year applicants below the max point pool were competing for a single tag. No group applications will be considered, etc etc.

Bill
 
What about a squared bonus point system like Nevada's? Nevada has the best point system in the west; hands down, IMO. Guys near the top in points still have a better chance than guys with few, but the guys with fewer points could still draw.

I'm near the top tier of points, but the way things are now, I'll never draw the Strip or Kaibab at 2 pts below max.

Just a thought. I'll send in my comments.
 
I talked to Amber at the azdfg about this. They are open to suggestion. Send a well written email expressing your reasoning and why. Mine was sent last week. She says they really haven't had much public comment on this. So chime in. Keep it respectable!
 
Bill's proposal mirrors the suggestion Don and I have suggested repeatedly to NR students at our NRS Class for the past 4 years or so.
 
Here's another address for submitting comments.

[email protected]

For what it's worth, this is what I sent:


Dear Board,

As a long time AZ applicant, recipient of a fair number of AZ tags, and holder of multiple genus bonus points, I am writing to express my opinion on the current status quo that is the Non Resident 'bonus point' allocation issue and specifically how NR tags might be distributed in (and after) the bonus pass portion of the draw.

First of all, I'm sure that you'll agree that for the sake of G&F budgets and continued hunter recruitment, it's critical to maintain the interest of those would apply for elk/deer permits but possess less than max points. The reality that no non resident permits make it out of the bonus pass in a growing number of units is becoming common knowledge. Where this is a reality, it can be said that AZ is effectively running a pure preference point system with 100% tag assignment in high demand hunt codes within the bonus pass. Calling it a bonus point system implies that there was a 'chance' to draw when in fact there was 0%. I think that this is misleading to the general public.

I think the nature of your wanting to bring this to the table speaks volumes of the board members good-will and sense of fairness. But, with regard to the proposed 50/50 split allocation (bonus pass vs. subsequent passes), I disagree with that concept. The same sense of fairness needs be maintained when considering the people vested in the current 'system.' By mandating a full half of the available permits to the lower draw passes, you essentially 'heavily dilute the value' of those with higher point totals. This will elongate the draw timetable of those who have patiently played the game by existing rules. My suggesting is simple:

** Make a rule that 1 tag only (regardless of what % that 1 tag equates to) makes it to the lower draw rounds. The general public will mostly accept this as they regularly compete for very few tags anyways. Statistically is makes little difference if 1 or 4 tags (as an example) makes it to that pass. By guaranteeing one (1) tag makes it out of the bonus pass, applicants will still be interested and engaged in the 'game' without overly diminishing the 'value' of accrued points for those that have played by the rules the longest.**

To me, this seems to be the fairest solution to the problem. Get rid of the smoke and mirrors of whether we are participating in a true 'bonus' or 'preference' point system. This could easily be accomplished with an asterisk (*) by each hunt code indicating 'that in the past year, applicants below the max point pool were competing for a single tag.' My suggestion is that group applications be considered ONLY for the bonus round, but will be rejected in the case of the single tag post bonus pass situation. There could be a check box option that allows the members of the group to be individually considered for that single tag. Otherwise they are only in for the bonus pass.

I hope you consider my suggestion as I have been thinking on this for quite some time. I would be happy to discuss the matter by phone if you desire.

Sincerely,

William Martin
 
This might be one of the smarter comments i have heard, thinking about the future more than right now! I am a NR with max so obviously I dont like the Idea, but more than that if you keep messing with the system people will get fed up and quit applying. My plan has always been 13B then look into other hunts ounce points are burned keeping money going into Arizonas economy every year. You keep making it harder for me to draw my tag I will eventually pick a different hunt like one of the unit 12 hunts draw and never apply again as I am fed up with it. How about taking a fee resident tags and letting nonresidents have a shot at them in a random draw? You want to keep us nonresidents coming cause we pay a lot more for a tag and license, I do beleive residents deserve more allotment of tags but 90% seems a little high to me. I dont know why people under max are complaining it should come as no surprise that you are not going to draw the most coveted tag so come up with a plan to hunt a different unit, I apply for Utah every year and am far under max points but Im not dropping out cause I cant draw the Henrys as I knew that when I started. This is definately a band aid as only a very small amount of people will draw these random tags, while this may generate interest in the short term eventually people will figure out that odds still arent good and they may as well play the lottery to win enough money to buy a tag as odds are similar.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-15 AT 11:53PM (MST)[p]
1 tag in the 1-2 pass where both choices are looked at won't make a measurable difference which is why the proposal is currently at 5/5. I don't think one tag/unit will get much consideration.
 
>Here's another address for submitting comments.
>
>
>[email protected]
>
>For what it's worth, this is
>what I sent:
>
>
>Dear Board,
>
>As a long time AZ applicant,
>recipient of a fair number
>of AZ tags, and holder
>of multiple genus bonus points,
>I am writing to express
>my opinion on the current
>status quo that is the
>Non Resident 'bonus point' allocation
>issue and specifically how NR
>tags might be distributed in
>(and after) the bonus pass
>portion of the draw.
>
>First of all, I'm sure that
>you'll agree that for the
>sake of G&F budgets and
>continued hunter recruitment, it's critical
>to maintain the interest of
>those would apply for elk/deer
>permits but possess less than
>max points. The reality that
>no non resident permits make
>it out of the bonus
>pass in a growing number
>of units is becoming common
>knowledge. Where this is
>a reality, it can be
>said that AZ is effectively
>running a pure preference point
>system with 100% tag assignment
>in high demand hunt codes
>within the bonus pass.
>Calling it a bonus point
>system implies that there was
>a 'chance' to draw when
>in fact there was 0%.
>I think that this is
>misleading to the general public.
>
>
>I think the nature of your
>wanting to bring this to
>the table speaks volumes of
>the board members good-will and
>sense of fairness. But,
>with regard to the proposed
>50/50 split allocation (bonus pass
>vs. subsequent passes), I disagree
>with that concept. The
>same sense of fairness needs
>be maintained when considering the
>people vested in the current
>'system.' By mandating a
>full half of the available
>permits to the lower draw
>passes, you essentially 'heavily dilute
>the value' of those with
>higher point totals. This will
>elongate the draw timetable of
>those who have patiently played
>the game by existing rules.
> My suggesting is
>simple:
>
>** Make a rule that 1
>tag only (regardless of what
>% that 1 tag equates
>to) makes it to the
>lower draw rounds. The general
>public will mostly accept this
>as they regularly compete for
>very few tags anyways.
>Statistically is makes little difference
>if 1 or 4 tags
>(as an example) makes it
>to that pass. By
>guaranteeing one (1) tag makes
>it out of the bonus
>pass, applicants will still be
>interested and engaged in the
>'game' without overly diminishing the
>'value' of accrued points for
>those that have played by
>the rules the longest.**
>
>To me, this seems to be
>the fairest solution to the
>problem. Get rid of
>the smoke and mirrors of
>whether we are participating in
>a true 'bonus' or 'preference'
>point system. This could easily
>be accomplished with an asterisk
>(*) by each hunt code
>indicating 'that in the past
>year, applicants below the max
>point pool were competing for
>a single tag.' My
>suggestion is that group applications
>be considered ONLY for the
>bonus round, but will be
>rejected in the case of
>the single tag post bonus
>pass situation. There could be
>a check box option that
>allows the members of the
>group to be individually considered
>for that single tag.
>Otherwise they are only in
>for the bonus pass.
>
>I hope you consider my suggestion
>as I have been thinking
>on this for quite some
>time. I would be
>happy to discuss the matter
>by phone if you desire.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>William Martin

Very articulate letter/e-mail. I agree with your suggestion. IMO some NR tags should fall into the 2nd pass of the drawings but 50% of the 10% NR cap is too many.

If the AG&F goes with the 50/50, I would at least like the 2nd pass to incorporate the applicant's bonus points so that those with the most bonus points at least have a better chance of drawing the 50% tags that fall through to the 2nd pass. That would take some of the sting out of the change for max/near max point holders.

Finally, with the draw process currently looking at an applicants 1st an 2nd hunt choices in the 1st and 2nd passes, I envision most NR less than max point holder applicants would put a high demand premium hunt as their first choice (i.e. 13B deer, 9 elk) and hope to hit the lottery and then a hunt they would be happy with on their second choice. This will make for astronomical draw odds for the premium hunts for the 2nd pass tags. Perhaps if the 50/50 passes also change the draw process so that the 1st and 2nd passes only look at an applicant's 1st hunt choice so a less than max point applicant has to make a choice on whether to apply for a high demand premium hunt or a 2nd tier hunt...

Horniac
 
Theres always the option of running the nonresident draw separate from the resident draw. Take 10% of the tags for each hunt run it 50% bonus and 50% random. I would feel better about knowing the the full 10% of tags will go to NRs istead of maybe on the random cut.
 
Fin I really like that idea plus it would make it a lot easier to see where your at with your points .
 
>Theres always the option of running
>the nonresident draw separate from
>the resident draw. Take 10%
>of the tags for each
>hunt run it 50% bonus
>and 50% random. I would
>feel better about knowing the
>the full 10% of tags
>will go to NRs istead
>of maybe on the random
>cut.


^^^This sounds like a pretty good idea!^^^
 
I've emailed my opinion :
There shouldn't need to be anything special or complicating about a Draw system , this applies to all states . If 100 tags are being allocated , throw everyone that applied into one hat and draw out names , NR and Residents .
What the heck has happened to simplicity ?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-15 AT 07:41PM (MST)[p]Fin,

There are currently not 10% set aside for non residents. That rule would need to be changed as well as the bonus point pass rule. Non residents can draw up to 10%. In most units it might as well be 10% set aside as those premium hunts have enough max point non residents to take the full 10%. I agree something needs to be done; to allow at least a chance, no matter how small it is. I feel the non resident pain as I have 17 points for utah deer and it could be another 20 years before I draw there.
 
I would be for that as long as all the other states treated residents and non residents the same(equal access to tags), but that's not going to happen.
 
>I've emailed my opinion :
>There shouldn't need to be anything
>special or complicating about a
>Draw system , this applies
>to all states . If
>100 tags are being allocated
>, throw everyone that applied
>into one hat and draw
>out names , NR and
>Residents .
>What the heck has happened to
>simplicity ?

Entitlement
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-15 AT 00:52AM (MST)[p]I bet that AZ's game and fish department will see increased revenue if they make this change. Under the current system, there are probably a lot of NR hunters that refuse to apply in AZ. Why pay the high license fees if you are limited to mediocre units? It's about time that they change this crappy rule.
 
Of course it will increase revenue. That's what this is about. Not fairness or goodwill lol.
 
They should leave it the way it is. Add 2 tags to all the early hunts available to Resident or Non Resident. It would be a win for everyone and I don't think it would hurt the elk population. Most areas are under 50% success rate so at most 1 additional elk per hunt. The reason for 2 tags is it will include more NR because the majority of NR don't hunt solo. The 50/50 split actually would take more tags away from NR applying as a group than it would create.
 
Don,
For the life of me I don't know how I missed your post on this for a month! Are they still accepting comment?

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-15 AT 12:29PM (MST)[p]I have 13 points with one foot in the door for a unit 1 archery elk tag, and will definitely be screwed by this 50/50 redistribution the worst. That being said, my main issue is maintaining an "up to 10% NR quota" and really changing that to a true set aside 10% with no outfitter welfare or any other taps on it. Of all the changes states do, I wish all would just do that.

As far as this 50/50 bonus pass change, I am OK with it, but would much prefer it to be delayed until 2018 to give the higher point holders at least a chance to burn their points. Also, no way should the new 5% go to a pure random draw. Points should be used for distributing those for sure. That would truly be throwing the vested hunters clearly under the bus. Everyone is scurrying now to burn points and the number of points required to draw any of the premium units will be anyone's guess. You can effectively throw out the 2014 stats when trying to predict this year. I bet everything will take 2-3 points more for 2015.

I went ahead and wrote up a detailed email and sent it on to the board.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
The proposal hasn't been formally introduced yet. When they do, public meetings will start and formal comments taken. It's a long road before becoming final.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-15 AT 02:10PM (MST)[p]

Whomever told you it was a pure random draw is incorrect. The 1-2 Pass uses Bonus Points to create your random numbers, the applicant keeping the lowest one. Those with more points will have a weighted advantage.

Apps aren't sorted by points, as is the case in the Bonus pass.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-15 AT 02:34PM (MST)[p]From the OP........

"AZ Game & Fish is proposing that a 50-50 split be made to ostensibly give 5% of the tags to the top NR bonus point holders while the additional 5% could be AVAILABLE to all NR's, irregardless of the bonus points they had."

That's where. In the long run I think I'm OK with this change as long as the points did have influence on future draws. Much easier pill to swallow, despite this costing me a tag this year. I hate the systems that just throw everything in random after the preference portion of their draws. I was never happy about it when they invented this ridiculous 20% bonus pass crap years ago anyway. They just made a complicated mess out of something that should be very simple.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-15 AT 03:15PM (MST)[p]
What Don is referring to is the difference in how points are used in the Bonus Pass and the 1-2 Pass. The 1-2 pass won't sort apps by point level.

Bonus Pass uses points two ways, 1-2 Pass only uses them one way. Points are used in both draws to give the applicant addl chances at a low number.
The 1-2 Pass is "random" in that you are sorted only by your new, lowest, random number.
 
That's relieving. If they change that whole mess they should just go to a plain 10% NR set aside, straight 50% preference, 50% bonus. Simple. Then nobody would need 4 Philadelphia attorneys to explain how it worked.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
Here's my two cents:

I would be all for setting aside 10% of all tags for NR's and moving to the 50/50 split once that is done. This would certainly seem to make applying in AZ much less complicated than it is now.

Or, if they are insistent in keeping things on the same draw program but simply moving to a 5%/5% split, I would suggest doing that over the next 5 years with a 1% change each year. That might/would give those with more points a few more years of a better chance to draw out.
 
I quit applying for Arizona when, after 4-5 PPs, I didn't have max because I didn't take the Hunter Safety course. (Sucks to be me)

Just got back in 3 years ago and realized I'd never draw a primo unit/hunt so my Arizona plans are to apply for late rifle hunts in units that gave random draw tags to NRs the prior year.

Hoping to draw repeatedly in the same unit and learn it well over a few hunts.

Not sure how these proposed changes will affect hunts that already have tags going the the 1-2 round to NRs?
 
After reading a lot of these comments, so folks got, some don't..

I have a concern about the up to 5% of the tags that will be available in the the general, 2nd draw.

You do realize that you all will put in the same pool as ALL Arizona residents are in? I guess I'm not convinced--and there has been no computer models on this either--that the other UP TO 5% of the NR tags WILL go to NR's!

NR's will NOT be put in a separate draw, with only other NR's--to do that I think requires another rule change.

I do wonder if the Department has thought about this option of separating residents from non-residents. If they did that, then NR's would be assured of 10% of the tags.

But current state law I believe states that "No more than 10%" can go to NR's, so that could be problematic.

Someone commented on that this was a money generator. Hmm.

Ya think?

Arizona is a state blessed with a lot of wildlife, but unfortunately, there are a lot more folks who want tags than are available.

I'm glad this point has stirred up some dialogue about this proposal.

Something is gonna happen this year. What it is, is still up in the air.

I know if I was a NR, I would sure weigh in on this, either pro or con, I guess depending on where you are in the points game or what you think is the most fair and equitable system available.

(I'm going to weigh in too!)

If someone out there can think of a way to build a better mouse trap, I sure hope they submit it to our commission for consideration.

Don Martin
Kingman, AZ
 
Funny you should mention that. I was going to mention that for the hunts that currently hit to 10% cap, moving 5% to the 1-2 Pass will more than likely increase the tags going to residents. There is no way on earth that 5% will magically get drawn by nr who are in the same pool as residents.

I just looked at the 2014 1-2 Pass numbers and NR aren't drawing the bulk of the tags left under the cap.
 
>Funny you should mention that. I
>was going to mention that
>for the hunts that currently
>hit to 10% cap, moving
>5% to the 1-2 Pass
>will more than likely increase
>the tags going to residents.
>There is no way on
>earth that 5% will magically
>get drawn by nr who
>are in the same pool
>as residents.
>
>I just looked at the 2014
>1-2 Pass numbers and NR
>aren't drawing the bulk of
>the tags left under the
>cap.

That is why they need leave it like it is and create 2 additional tags and make them available to both Res and Non Res. Everyone should be happy that way. the Non res then has a chance and the Res probably get 2 more tags.
 
Vince, 2 tags isn't enough in my opinion. The 5% represents more than that for most hunts.

I looked a little closer, and without a calculator:

Early rifle, there are virtually no nr tags available in the 1-2 pass so it's hard to say what would happen.

Late rifle, nr draw roughly half the remaining tags under the cap,in the 1-2 pass.

Early archery, nr draw all the remaining tags under the cap.

Late archery, nr draw the remaining tags for the high demand units and about half of the cap tags for the std demand units.
 
>Vince, 2 tags isn't enough in
>my opinion. The 5% represents
>more than that for most
>hunts.
>
>I looked a little closer,
>and without a calculator:
>
>Early rifle, there are virtually no
>nr tags available in the
>1-2 pass so it's hard
>to say what would happen.
>
>
>Late rifle, nr draw roughly half
>the remaining tags under the
>cap,in the 1-2 pass.
>
>Early archery, nr draw all the
>remaining tags under the cap.
>
>
>Late archery, nr draw the remaining
>tags for the high demand
>units and about half of
>the cap tags for the
>std demand units.

Bob they are doing this because the Non Res wants a chance at every tag right? So if they add 2 tags after the 20% pass available to anyone res or non res then the non res have there chance and the residents would probably end up with the tags any way so all are happy. The reason for 2 tags instead of 1 is usually non residents apply in pairs very few hunt solo that would get more interest. Only the hunts that don't transfer at least 2 tags to the 1 2 pass should add the extra tags. This way everyone is happy and it wouldn't hurt elk population # at most 1 additional harvest per unit a year.
 
I am in favor of the NR tag split! Makes sense to me, Utah does this and it is a great way of rewarding those with most points and allowing those with very few a slight chance. I am glad the points are weighted in AZ too!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-15 AT 03:07AM (MST)[p]If they only had 2 tags in the 1-2 Pass for unit 1 early archery, your odds would less than 1/2000.
The new proposal would put 15 tags in that round. Granted 15/4000 isn't a whole lot better but it sure feels like it.
 
>Vince, would you use one of
>your elk choices on a
>hunt that has 1/1000 odds?
>
Yes as soon as I draw Until I built up to 8 points again. I would put both choices on those until my points build back up. With the split idea I'll have to wait until I get 16 or 17 points. I wouldn't be wasting them anyway I apply for the areas I want to hunt regardless of my chance now. I've been surprised before and have drew some great tags.
 
I see why the split is proposed. It gives everyone a chance. HOWEVER, ONE or TWO STRIP DEER TAGS with the ODDS of 1 to 4,000 to 5,000??? IS THIS REALLY going to make a difference. It would make a difference with less demanding hunts, like late season rifle elk, or early archery lesser quality units. Right now you could draw lesser quality archery units as a NON RES with 5-6 points.
Just a few thoughts.
 
>I see why the split is
>proposed. It gives everyone
>a chance. HOWEVER, ONE
>or TWO STRIP DEER TAGS
>with the ODDS of 1
>to 4,000 to 5,000???
>IS THIS REALLY going to
>make a difference. It
>would make a difference with
>less demanding hunts, like late
>season rifle elk, or early
>archery lesser quality units.
>Right now you could draw
>lesser quality archery units as
>a NON RES with 5-6
>points.
>Just a few thoughts.

Agree all the split would do is make the max point holders wait twice as long and give the guys just getting in a very small chance at drawing the first 15 years. Keep it 5 he way it is and add 2 tags available to anyone in the 1-2 draw and nobody gets hurt but everyone has a chance.
 
I like the way the system is now at least for elk. I know with the loyalty point and hunter ed point that every 10 years I can draw a really good archery tag with 12 points. I can draw a good late rifle tag every 5 years with 7 points. If they change the system then it will take twice as long to draw the same tags unless you get really lucky.
 
>I like the way the system
>is now at least for
>elk. I know with
>the loyalty point and hunter
>ed point that every 10
>years I can draw a
>really good archery tag with
>12 points. I can
>draw a good late rifle
>tag every 5 years with
>7 points. If they
>change the system then it
>will take twice as long
>to draw the same tags
>unless you get really lucky.
>
The 50/50 split will hurt everyone but the residents. The residents will get more of the up to 10% allocation. Loosing 5% of the tags is not worth the 1 in 4000 chance you gain.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-15 AT 07:38PM (MST)[p]>I see why the split is
>proposed. It gives everyone
>a chance. HOWEVER, ONE
>or TWO STRIP DEER TAGS
>with the ODDS of 1
>to 4,000 to 5,000???
>IS THIS REALLY going to
>make a difference. It
>would make a difference with
>less demanding hunts, like late
>season rifle elk, or early
>archery lesser quality units.
>Right now you could draw
>lesser quality archery units as
>a NON RES with 5-6
>points.
>Just a few thoughts.

Sucks but apparently Utah still has folks bamboozled by doing it this way. Since the 200 NR primo tags were stolen for the Expo crap, the random odds for common species has been elevated to Power Ball status. Unfortunately people still seem to go for it.


***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-15 AT 07:59PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-15
>AT 07:38?PM (MST)
>
>>I see why the split is
>>proposed. It gives everyone
>>a chance. HOWEVER, ONE
>>or TWO STRIP DEER TAGS
>>with the ODDS of 1
>>to 4,000 to 5,000???
>>IS THIS REALLY going to
>>make a difference. It
>>would make a difference with
>>less demanding hunts, like late
>>season rifle elk, or early
>>archery lesser quality units.
>>Right now you could draw
>>lesser quality archery units as
>>a NON RES with 5-6
>>points.
>>Just a few thoughts.
>
>Sucks but apparently Utah still has
>folks bamboozled by doing it
>this way. Since the
>200 NR primo tags were
>stolen for the Expo crap,
>the random odds for common
>species has been elevated to
>Power Ball status. Unfortunately
>people still seem to
>go for it.
>
>
>***********************************
>Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club,
>NRA, UWC & DP Hate
>Club

I'm not going to quit applying but your chances of drawing more than 1 rut tag in 30 years will be slim. A few extremely lucky non residents will draw but most tags in the 1-2 pass will go to the residents. So that up to 10% will be more like 6 or 7%. And premium tags will take 3 times as long to draw after a about 10 years.
 
Great comments William. Good ideas. I especially like the asterisk idea. I have been buying the enhanced draw data off and on for years through public information requests and AZ makes it difficult to truly figure out how many points nonresidents have to draw for a given hunt code. At least for the data I have been receiving they don't give the res/non-res breakdown for successful applicants.
 
As WapitiBob points out, the proposal as written results in less tags actually drawn by Nonresidents because we NR are going to be unlikely to draw many of the 5% moved to the 1-2 pass. As a group we lose but as an individual a nonres could either win or lose based on their point level.

If they change the overall nonres quota from "up to 10%" to a 10% nonres set aside I would be ok with the proposal. Perhaps they could phase in the movement of the 5% of the nonres permits to the 1-2 pass over 5 years, at 1% per year in consideration of the nonres that are at or near max points. (over five years go from 9%/1%, 8%/2%, 7%/3%, 6%/4%, 5%/5% nonres permits in the bonus pass/1-2 pass). Its not perfect but at least it lessens the pain for the high point nonresidents. And it should get more nonres jumping and staying in because they know there is at least some chance of drawing a permit no matter their point level.

Of course as a nonres I like the 15% nonres quota that has been mentioned but that is unlikely to happen.

A 10% guarantee seems to be a fair ask for nonresidents based on the amount of money we send to AZ for general hunting licenses alone. Surely we are financially at least 10% partners in supporting AZ's wildlife. It seems fair that we also receive 10% of the payoff.

Lets be honest, this proposal is not about being fair to nonresidents. This is about revenue, which is fine. A good argument could be made that a 10% nonres guarantee would be in the best interest of residents as it will keep open the nonres cash spigot, if not open it wider. More money can equal more game which equals more permits. If you take the long term view, perhaps 10% nonres guarantee would result in more hunting opportunity for your children. The lack of a 10% guarantee could mean diminishing opportunity for your children.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-15 AT 08:10PM (MST)[p]I will disagree that it was revenue driven. I've been talking to the person in charge of this change for over a year now and it's always been about the diminishing nr quota dropping to the 1-2 Pass. I have no reason to believe otherwise. For 2014 there were TWO nr tags for early rifle in that 1-2 Pass.
Currently, it's the best option for most nr without re writing the process. The changes the dept can make without legislative action are limited and I don't know, and haven't asked, if changing the NR quota is within their scope. Don may be able to answer that.
 

Similar threads

HntHrdr
Last minute meeting to change Co tag allocation
Replies
12
Views
1k
Joe2Kool
Joe2Kool
BrianID
Thoughts on new Special license fees
2
Replies
107
Views
4k
BuzzH
BuzzH
Duckhunter14
Late Rifle Elk Tag
Replies
20
Views
2k
Jerry
J

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

IMG_6251.jpeg
20230729_173647.jpg
7B5DEB73-963F-4183-A2E0-E6A711B8BCC0.jpeg
BE81F38D-DD3F-4258-A42C-3BBEA92A29E3.jpeg
3D2FE114-B758-41DF-BC5A-13E2977BE6E3.jpeg
2E961453-D3D0-4618-B0FA-6B028B1F3D3C.jpeg
7D70A91A-E54E-4014-8AEB-632E485F638A.jpeg
8F32A0E3-6C26-46D4-9E14-531FBB5A2A86.jpeg
IMG_3710 (1)J.jpg
7E14384A-EC9E-44E6-818D-901124B36DFD.jpeg
IMG_0828.jpeg
E3A8C186-5B05-4589-8E6F-D929DB15C939.jpeg

Arizona Hunting Guides & Outfitters

SilverGrand Outfitters

Offering mule deer, elk, antelope, bighorn sheep, javelina, and turkey hunts in Nevada and Arizona.

Arizona Elk Outfitters

Offering the serious hunter a chance to hunt trophy animals in the great Southwest.

A3 Trophy Hunts

An Arizona Outfitter specializing in the harvest of World Class big game of all species.

Arizona Strip Guides

Highly experienced and highly dedicated team of hardworking professional Arizona Strip mule deer guides.

Urge 2 Hunt

THE premier hunts in Arizona for trophy elk, mule deer, couse deer and javelina.

Shadow Valley Outfitters

AZ Strip and Kaibab mule deer, big bulls during the rut, spot-n-stalk pronghorn and coues deer hunts.

Back
Top Bottom