New National Monument??

nontypical

nontypical

Long Time Member
Messages
4,195
Anyone know the current status of this proposal? I'm talking about the National Monument being proposed by members of Arizona's congressional folks that would include parts of the Strip and Kaibab.

Is this a concern with any of you guys? Haven't seen anything posted up here about it. Must not be a big deal??

Thoughts?
 
In all Honesty, I'm not concerned at all . I see the Benefits outweighing the Cons in this matter . Among the State and Federal Agencies, this has been a Debate for a few years now and in those few years I've spoken with a few Environmentalists , Biologists, Ecologists regarding this Monument push . There is another one that has been in debate in the SouthWestern part of Utah as well .
Has the Grand Canyon Parashaunt Monument affected anyone's ability to Hunt in the Monument or Wilderness Areas ? No ! Maybe for the Lazy . Will all Trails and Roads be closed if the Monument on 13a and Kaiabab goes into affect ? No !
Trails/Roads will be 3 to 5 miles apart , which is in there plan .
In past years, the Federal Agencies were very Bullheaded about getting any Wildlife Improvement Projects to go forward .
Currently the BLM, USFS have pursued a Wildlife Habitat Restoration Project that encompasses 300,000 Acres on 13A and Yellow John Mt on 13B , utilizing Mechanical, Chemical, manual and Fire procedures .
To install a Wildlife Watercatchment, the Federal Agencies were a pain in the Butt to work with , now they've become a lot more workable . All it takes is $$$ . Without Preservations of Land , more Wildlife Habitat will continually disappear . Hence, it's pretty dang nice to think that hey , at least the Arizona Strip is there and there to stay the way it is today .
Everyone here has love and passion for Wildlife and Hunting . Guess what , the
"Tree Huggers" do as well with the exception to Hunting . lol . They present a number of concerns to the Federal Agencies and some are justifiably valid . Great example for instance . Some Idiot rode there UTV off road and ripped up an Archelogical site on Robison Canyon on 13a recently . Another example , I was out there just yesterday , went out at 4am while the Mud was frozen solid to prevent rutted up sore up roads . However , someone recently right after this latest storm had decided to take there truck off road by Toroweep Valley 13a , and tore up the grounds creating 2ft deep ruts , and thats off the main road . Are those irresponsible actions a concern , a justifiable concern ? Sure it is .
As for the Future , Cities like ST George , Kanab etc etc are going to continue expand and grow as it has been ever since I've been here 26 years . Protection of Lands is a need or all Wildlife Habitat is lost .
 
Mike - You need be understand what can happen once the Strip becomes a national monument. You need only look to the Mojave National Preserve in CA to see what kind of disaster is in the making. Once the tortoise hippies in the fed took over, they removed the water catchments and said the big horn sheep would need to adjust to a naturally sustaining population. Only one problem. The development in the desert communities miles away from the preserve had lowered the water level in the aquifers and the historical springs from the last century no longer produced water. Volunteers raised money, materials and labor to turn it around and asked the state to help out. The National Park Service denied permits to enter the preserve to do the work. The state sued and lost.

The big push for this monument is coming from the Center for Biological Diversity. They have an eye on the mule deer on the Strip and the Kaibab as an abundant food source for wolves and they make no bones about it as a stated objective.

A national monument spells the end of deer hunting in NW AZ. Don't get sucked into their "big government programs are good for you" propaganda. They are counting on the sheeple to follow along blindly.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 
Sagebrush , I don't know the current situation in California , I am just always actively aware as to what goes on or applies to the Arizona Strip . However what I do know is that Regulations or Policies that were signed into Law by Congress regarding or to Establish a National Monument cannot be changed . Regulations or policies were created under EIS ( Environment Impact Statement) plan .
If what you say is true, regarding those actions in California , thats just plain Arrogance within the Federal/State Agency personnel . Those actions contradict the overall purpose of the EIS plan .
The Arizona Strip , over 1 million acres has been designated National Monument Status for 15 - 20 years . Hunting has always been permitted within this time frame. As I stated before, the AZG&F were having issues with the Cooperation efforts by the BLM,NPS and USFS personnel for a long time , trying to push different Wildlife and Habitat enhancement Projects through . But the past few years , whatever it is that had changed , the BLM , USFS , and NPS have been very workable getting projects approved and completed . Here is the EIS plan for all Monuments for water projects.
MA-WF-09 Existing water developments will be modified to ensure wildlife have safe access to water. Existing water developments will be maintained to ensure reliability of the water. Maintenance of existing waters will generally take priority over new construction. Development of cooperative waters for livestock and wildlife will be encouraged where doing so will benefit wildlife, will be consistent with achieving DFCs, and will be economically efficient.
On NPS-administered lands, existing water developments may be maintained, repaired, or replaced in-kind but increased development (size, scope, or disturbance) will not be authorized.
MA-WF-10
Escape ramps will continue to be maintained and, where needed, installed at all waters accessible to wildlife to minimize drowning hazards.
 
Sagebrush,

I agree with you a 100%. Mike look at who is coming out against this new land grab. If it goes through it will not end good for those who enjoy the Kaibab and AZ strip. We are talking about national forests, blm land mostly. It won't be developed in the future and we don't need more government regulation. To close off roads they don't need to create another monument. They have already closed a ton of roads on other national forests here in az and they are closing more everyday. We have camping spots we have been camping at for years and years, we now are no longer able to camp at those spots. I could go on and on, but Government over reach has gotten out of control, we do not need more of it!
 
I also agree with Sagebrush 100%, if this passes it would be the first step in taking away hunting on the Strip and Kaibab forever...
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-08-15 AT 03:34PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-08-15 AT 03:32?PM (MST)

There are some things people need to understand about federal regulation.

The people that make the policy decisions think that raising cattle and hunting are archaic cultural activities which need to be confined to a small and well regulated areas until they can be eliminated altogether. "Wilderness" needs to controlled and access limited so fewer and fewer "common" people will feel less need to defend the right to recreate there. These are the same people that are telling us the "common" person needs to change their diet to more "eco-friendly" foods instead of beef. http://www.dallasnews.com/news/loca...idelines-might-reflect-environmental-cost.ece

The federal employees are of the opinion that they are more educated and therefore more knowledgeable than the local inbred "hicks" and know what is best for us. They would try to explain it to us but we are incapable of comprehending anything more complex than frying bacon.

I've seen them in action down here in the lower desert when they tried to expand the Sonoran Desert National Monument. They put on several dog and pony shows to collect public comments on the program they had already determined to be etched in stone. They firmly expected to just steamroll the "hicks" with the support of a few eco-hippy organizations and a snazzy Powerpoint presentation. Unfortunately for them, a few well informed "hicks" called them out on their BS. One particular instance I recall at the Surprise meeting, one of the NPS personnel was asked how they determined which roads would be used for access and which roads would be closed. He described the thorough and painstaking process his staff used to catalog all the roads and how they walked or drove every mile. The "hick" pointed out one of the main roads on the map which allowed access to a huge tract of "wilderness" and asked if they drove that rode. He answered they drove that road and all of the roads and trails currently in use. The "hick" said "That's interesting. My family has been hunting and camping in that area for over 20 years and that road on your map, it doesn't exist. The only access is through this pass where you show no roads and is planned to be closed to vehicular access". That one mistake would have closed off a huge area except for those willing to hike 20 miles of desert. They had everyone p!ssed at them. Hunters, offroaders, equestrians, even the birders. These are the guys to which you want to give control of the Strip and the Kaibab.

They don't want hunting and they don't want ranching. What do you think will happen to all the stock tanks on the Strip when they cancel all the grazing permits? What impact will that have on the best mule deer hunting on the planet?

Kudos to G&F for trying to push back on the feds. They saw what happened with the Mexican wolf reintroduction and how the feds jammed their plan down our throats. I say let's keep control by the Forest service and BLM. At least they still believe in hunting and ranching as a way of life.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 
Sagebrushes post is completely ignorant. I would take fed managed land over state managed land any day of the week. Not all of them, but many of the biologists and range managers for the feds are big time hunters and sportsmen. They are also some of the biggest advocates for ranching and mining on public lands and trying to make it work with wildlife management. I know this because I have been working with the feds for over 30 years to use public lands to graze cattle. You apparently think the state of Arizona is the cat's meow, well look at the Horseshoe ranch the AZ Game and Fish Department bought a few years ago located at the Agua Fria National Monument. AZGFD tried their damndest to get the feds to cancel the grazing permit associated with the ranch, but the feds pretty much told them to go pound sand. The feds told AZGFD they would either find someone to graze the allotments tied to the ranch or they would find somebody else who would. AZGFD was forced to lease the ranch to JH Cattle Co. AZGFD biologists also nominated the Arizona lead for Western Watersheds Project for an award for her work on ?conservation? in Arizona: ?conservation? meaning her work getting grazing leases canceled. These are the people you support to manage public land?

?What do you think will happen to all of the stock tanks when they cancel all of the permits?? Why don't you give us an example of the permits they have canceled recently on the strip or any national monument for that matter? And if it happens so frequently, what happened to those stock tanks that were associated with the grazing rights that were canceled?
 
The NPS canceled the grazing leases, eliminated the water wells and refused permits to the F&G and volunteers to maintain existing catchments. Now they are doing a study to see if water catchments will be beneficial to wildlife. The NPS is a joke. And if you read my previous, I said let the BLM and Forest Service continue with the management in cooperation with AZGFD.

http://www.nps.gov/moja/learn/nature/upload/200904science.pdf


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 
An article from the LA Times gives a quick overview of what happened at the MNP.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/mar/04/local/me-mojave4


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back. Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 
I appreciate the reading material. This doesn't surprise me at all as this all happened on a NPS preserve in possibly the hottest and driest place in North America. Since preservation is the mission of preserves, eliminating cattle use usually happens first. However, I would imagine that cattle ranching in that country would be pretty tough.
 
Elimination of cattle is an issue, but it is not THE issue. The real issue that concerned me was the elimination of water sources for desert bighorn sheep and mule deer. And now a 10 year study to determine if water catchments are beneficial to desert wildlife. You would think that knowledge could be gained in a 10 minute phone conversation with wildlife managers in AZ, NV and CA where water catchments have been installed and studied for over 50 years. Meanwhile, no water for the desert critters.

It now appears that the Center for Biological Diversity is lobbying Obama hard to create the Grand Canyon Watershed National Monument by executive order without study or public comment.

We need to make our voices heard this Thursday morning in the meeting at Flagstaff.

https://www.facebook.com/5062240133...3741825.50622401338/10152782311301339/?type=1


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 
Listen, the Sierra Club has stated they are seeking for Obama to designate 6 MILLION acres of public lands as National Monuments before he leaves office.

The Grand Canyon Watershed National Monument is just PART of that grandiose plan.

I'll be there on Thursday to present a letter from the Mohave Sportsman Club and our 1,600 members OPPOSING this massive land grab!

One of the Mohave County Board of Supervisors will be there with a resolution from Mohave County in opposition of the designation.

Arizona Sportsmen For Wildlife Conservation (AZSFWC) will be there with a resolution signed off by 21 or so conservation groups who are in opposition of this.

Think about this for a moment.

This is supposed to be a "stakeholders meeting" which means all those that are or could be affected by this proposal have the opportunity to offer input BEFORE a decision is made.

But do you know that Ann Kirkpatrick,Raul Grijalva and Rueben Gallegos have ALREADY sent a letter to Obama asking him to do this designation?

So what then does Kirkpatrick NOW hold as meeting, AFTER the letter has been sent?

Wouldn't a REAL, CONCERNED representative ask these questions and hold meetings BEFORE they sent out a letter, requesting a specific action, NOT AFTER?

I really get a feeling this is just a "dog and pony show" for the liberal news so that it appears she and the others really care.

These folks are just hacks for the Sierra Club, Wildlands Council, and the other anti groups who want to add another layer of bureaucracy to the management of these and all public lands.

Arizona currently has 18 National Monuments, more than any other state in the Nation. How many more designations are needed to protect the already best protected areas of public lands in Arizona?

Lets see, there are travel management plans, logging plans, hunting seasons, grazing plans, no mining in these areas and yet these anti groups want MORE protection? Give me a break.

I urge all of you to go the AZSFWC website and read the facts of this proposal.

As Jim Unmacht, the president of the AZSFWC put it, "This is a solution in search of a problem."

The G&F Commission is on record as opposing this designation.

Most all of the conservation groups are to.

We had better try and stop this--it it is possible--before the antis get every square inch of public lands in Arizona and beyond declared a national monument!

I hope that the meeting, which is at 10:30 a.m. Thursday in the City Hall in Flagstaff is filled with concerned sportsmen and NOT just a bunch of anti "greenies" in Birkenstock shoes there.

Don Martin
Life Member
Mohave Sportsman Club
Kingman, AZ
 
Sounds bad. I wondered why no one had posted anything about this; that's why I started the thread. Good luck to you guys at the meeting tomorrow. If I wasn't in Wyoming, I would be there as well.

Politicians suck.
 
Thanks Don. From what I have heard from those that do lobbying in congress, a flood of communication will get some attention. The way I understand the process, a letter, phone call or e-mail will largely go ignored. A few contacts on the same subject will get the attention of a staffer, several contacts will get it on the daily report. A bunch of contacts will get a research staffer assigned and scores of contacts will get it on the agenda for the Representative. While attendance at this meeting is important, Kirkpatrick has already done her damage and input from this "dog & pony show" will be swept under the rug and they will be able to check the box that says "solicited public comment".

If each of us takes the time to contact our congressman and politely states our opposition to the proposed designation, we could get several members of congress to look into it and take a position. You know the Sierra Club and the Center for Biological Diversity are doing this on the pro side.

Doing nothing gives us results like the Travel Management Plan on the Coconino.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 
nontypical - This sleeping dog has been quiet for the last couple of years. Its only recently that Ann Kirkpatrick has kicked it back awake. We put a stop to the Sonoran National Monument expansion a couple years ago and we can probably put a stop to this designation too. They just keep getting resurrected and we have to be diligent in knocking them back down.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 
Once they grab complete control of the area, then there is less resistance to introducing wolves.
 
I have an area in ca. that became a monument,and hunting most likely will stay,but a place that was void of people know has alot more rules for vehicles and camping full time patrol,on the international radar for bird and flower viewing a new visitor center.quit busy,the only good thing i can think of is they wont be drilling for oil
 
Don,
I was just wondering how today's meeting went? I wanted to make it but had some stuff I couldn't get out of doing work wise (I know that's a pathetic excuse, almost as pathetic as them putting these meetings on when lots of people have to work...)
Thanks for representing us sportsmen and look forward to hearing details of the meeting!
Cody Bradshaw
 
Well this is just MY take on the meeting.

About 10 or so spoke against it, including Tom Britt, representing the RMEF, Supervisor Gary Watson, from the Mohave County Board of Supervisors, Tom Mackin from the Coconino Sportsmen, Alvie Johnson, the mayor of Fredonia, the mayor of Tusayan, who I did not get his name, Pat Madden from the AZ G&F Dept.,Jim Unmacht president of the AZSFWC, myself representing the Mohave Sportsman Club, and a couple of cattlemen. (sorry of I missed any others.)

At least double spoke out for it, including the Sierra Club, Center For Biological Diversity, Grand Canyon Wildlands Council and a number of members from the various tribes.

The main theme I heard was URANIUM MINING, and disrupted travel corridors for wildlife...which I sure didn't know about...guess G&F doesn't either...hmm

Congresswoman Kirkpatrick, if you can believe this, said "This was just the beginning, nothing has been done and that public input was wanted."

Then at least THREE members of the enviromental community who spoke promptly THANKED HER FOR WRITING THE LETTER TO OBAMA!

So what do you think?

Wouldn't a legislator who doesn't have an agenda hold stakeholder meetings BEFORE they send off a letter asking for any kind of designation, NOT AFTER THEY HAD ALREADY SENT A LETTER?

Yea, kinda like closing the barn door AFTER the cows have left!

Nope, this was a well orchestrated "Dog and Pony" show.

The good news is Kirkpatrick said they would continue to accept comments, so let's flood Ms. Molly Brown's email at [email protected] and let them know how YOU, the American sportsmen and conservationist, feel about this business.

Interesting "fact" was that Congresswoman Kirkpatrick said that they had received about 1,300 comments on this so far and that 92% were in FAVOR of the monument designation.

Hmm, since no one in the conservation community had heard about this until late February, how could sportsmen respond since we didn't KNOW about it?

The fight is on folks, and if each and every of you out there doesn't send Ms. Molly an email, then we will probably loose this battle, and some of the most coveted and well protected lands in Arizona are done.

As Jim Unmacht has so aptly put it, "This is just a solution looking for a problem!"

By the way I think Jim said said they had about 22 conservation groups that had signed on to the AZSFWC resolution opposing the monument designation.

Let everyone in your email group know Molly's email and let her have it! I told her that she was now going to hear from sportsmen on this.

Don Martin
Life Member
Mohave Sportsman Club
 
Just sent my email to Kirkpatrick

Mrs. Kirkpatrick,

As a registered Independent, I'm constantly disappointed in politicians, it doesn't seem to matter whether I vote Republican, Democrat or Independent. Politicians always seem to have their certain agendas, which in most cases are not in the better interest of the people they are supposed to be representing.
For Example look at what Doucey is doing to Arizona's public education systems, pulling millions from schools only to give more to the prison systems...I guess he fails to realize the more educated the people of our state are, the less likely they are to end up in jail, but I'm guessing the private prison companies must have made a sizable donation to his campaign.
As excited as I was to vote for you, I'm now disappointed in my decision. I truly bought in to your campaign that you would always be looking out for rural Arizona. You fooled me into thinking you were a down to earth politician with your cowgirl hat, and what appeared to be a true connection with the people of Arizona and I thought you would be looking out for our best interests. I grew up with your son-in-law Richie and thought you were the only choice!
Your support for the Grand Canyon Watershed National Monument has proved otherwise and leaves me feeling deceived.
The proposal for a National Monument mentions a benefit of an improved wildlife corridor, how am I supposed to believe this will improve under National Monument status when the Arizona Game & Fish Department which has done an incredible job DOES NOT support this Monument?
I've read the plan to slowly start phasing out the cattle leases once their contracts expire. 1st off, this is a spit in the face to the ranchers that trusted you would always look out for them. 2nd, I'm not sure how much time you spend in this region, but with the ongoing drought these cattle ranchers are a big reason why the wildlife has water on years of extreme drought. With climate change this will only get worse, and while it may be popular rhetoric w groups such as the Sierra Club, in the real west we need these ranchers for wildlife as much as they need the public lands to make their livings on.
Mining is another hot topic, and personally I don't want to see uranium mining on the Kaibab Plateau or Arizona Strip, but the Obama Administration has placed a 20-year ban on Uranium mining. This addresses this issue without the need for a National Monument which has the real chance at tying up access to OUR public lands.
My wife, in-laws and I recently made a trip to the North Side of Snake Gulch where we dropped down to see some incredible pictographs and petroglyphs. We enjoy a challenge and bushwacked down a tributary canyon that I had seen deer in this past November while deer hunting with my dad and sure enough we were able to find a spot we could drop into the bottom and enjoy one of the most spectacular areas in the Southwest. A National Monument designation could potentially ban us from taking the existing trail in and I would venture to say bushwacking down a side tributary will be out of the question. If we are still able to visit this site I'm EQUALLY concerned that the designation will increase the amount of people in this country and increase the chance of Vandalism. Its a LOOSE-LOOSE situation.
My next issue of concern is logging, logging is an important tool to the Kaibab plateau. There are restrictions in regards to Old Growth Trees, and no-one wants to see them disturbed, but the Kaibab is alarmingly overgrown. Logging can be a very valuable tool to the forests when done responsibly. A National Monument will make it even more difficult to responsibly log this forest.
Look at the logging gridlock in court after the Warm Fire. Logging got tied up for so long after the fire that these trees were useless when the approvals finally came through. A Monument IS NOT the answer to this as well.
One of my most passionate issues is hunting. While environmentalists are quick to throw us under the bus, they need to remember the countless dollars we contribute to "CONSERVATION" through hunting licenses and hunting permits, not to mention the millions and millions into the local economies. Hunters are a valuable tool to the Arizona Game & Fish to help keep the populations at sustainable numbers.
I know this letter is long, but my passions for the Kaibab plateau run deep. While I feel you may think this designation may be the right thing to preserve this magical place, please realize that the National Forest Service, BLM, Arizona Game & Fish Departments and misc. other organizations are doing a great job, and if anything figure out how to give them even more resources to continue to do a great job.
Sincerely,
Cody Lee Bradshaw
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-15-15 AT 01:07AM (MST)[p]Good Letter Cody,

It is no surprise Kirkpatrick is beholden to the Sierra Club and the CBD. She should never have been re-elected after being booted once. A career politician is all she is, knows no other way of making a living.

I am amazed that all the people supporting this monument because it provides a "wildlife corridor" are unable to simply read a map. There just happens to be this little thing called the Grand Canyon running in between the proposed land designations. It forms a natural barrier for literally hundreds of miles in either direction of the Grand Canyon National Park. No way possible a deer, a wolf, or even a squirrel is crossing it. That is why the squirrels on the north and south part pf the park are so different. They were separated thousands, or millions, of year ago.

I understand they hate mining, especially uranium, but this is going too far. It's just about control. Much easier for the environmental groups to gain control over a monument than broken up BLM, national forest, and state land.
 
I would have to say the monument is a good idea, and it needs to happen now if some of the west is going to be preserved as we now enjoy it.

The onslaught of development that I have seen in my short life is scary. I could write a book on how many places I have seen ruined for hunting in the last 40 years.

let's cultivate some decency and save a little of the western US for the future?
Good for Obama, it's to bad our sick western politicians want to sell the future to the highest bidder.
 
Piper,
I'm guessing by your post that you haven't spent much time on the Kaibab Plateau. If you had, you would realize that this is a place that hasn't been overtaken by new development in the past 40 years.
There are already several wilderness areas within this region as well as monuments and parks surrounding it. While I enjoy places such as the Grand Canyon (I have personally rowed my own raft down the Colorado twice now) the Kaibab is special how it is as well. Honestly aside from hunting season I saw WAY more people in a couple week span at the bottom of the Grand Canyon than I see on a shed hunting trip in mid-March to the Kaibab.
The govt agencies running the Kaibab are doing a fine job and there is no need for a national monument!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-15-15 AT 09:18AM (MST)[p]I'm guessing that there are plans for development, there usually is when a president is asked to act. There were plans for a coal mine when president Clinton made the monument in Utah. This has been a constant theme throughout history, I guess if it weren't for Teddy Roosevelt you could have rode a train down the grand canyon instead of a boat.

Once mines and drilling hit the people come, then it's all gone. The truth is that the BLM and forest service are many times powerless against big oil and mining, it's all governed by laws, and we all know what kind of money grubbing sickos make the laws.
 
Cody:

That is an OUTSTANDING letter!

You hit the points right on; your letter is articulate, accurate and is well done!

I hope that this is a wake up to all Americans: sportsmen are the true conservationists in America, not the Sierra Club, CBD, Grand Canyon Wildlands, etc.

How much time and MONEY do they put forward in taking care of the land? Very little if any..

All they want to do is sue, sue , sue.

I sure hope that everyone who reads this will take the time to send an email to Ms. Brown.

She is Congresswoman Kirkpatrick's "right hand lady" and she told me they keep count of emails that they receive.

If we can show that now that we know about this situation, we are not happy, and there is really no need for this massive land grab--at least we're on record as opposing it.

OBama can do this with a stroke of his pen--no over sight, and at this point, no one can stop him.

Only political pressure can MAYBE put an end to this nonsense.

Please, take 5 minutes and send that email to [email protected]

Don Martin
 
I notice that the term OUR public land is used alot, and I would always want to stand behind sportsman,but I am a none res and hunting on the stip has been already closed to hunting on my public land. A monument will be better protection, from what I dont know, but we still hunt ours in ca. which by the way is probably no better to none res than ariz. and we have alot of your public land,so I can assume ariz.wont have ca. back. Once it is a monument be ready to use copper bullets,dont worry to much been using it for a dozen years. also they may rid the place of electronic surveillance and the lucky will have to go back to hunting.
 
>I notice that the term OUR
>public land is used alot,
>and I would always want
>to stand behind sportsman,but I
>am a none res and
>hunting on the stip has
>been already closed to hunting
>on my public land. A
>monument will be better protection,
>from what I dont know,
>but we still hunt ours
>in ca. which by the
>way is probably no better
>to none res than ariz.
>and we have alot of
>your public land,so I can
>assume ariz.wont have ca. back.
>Once it is a monument
>be ready to use copper
>bullets,dont worry to much been
>using it for a dozen
>years. also they may rid
>the place of electronic surveillance
>and the lucky will have
>to go back to hunting.
>

HUH?!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-15-15 AT 06:52PM (MST)[p]>I notice that the term OUR
>public land is used alot,
>and I would always want
>to stand behind sportsman,but I
>am a none res and
>hunting on the stip has
>been already closed to hunting
>on my public land. A
>monument will be better protection,
>from what I dont know,
>but we still hunt ours
>in ca. which by the
>way is probably no better
>to none res than ariz.
>and we have alot of
>your public land,so I can
>assume ariz.wont have ca. back.
>Once it is a monument
>be ready to use copper
>bullets,dont worry to much been
>using it for a dozen
>years. also they may rid
>the place of electronic surveillance
>and the lucky will have
>to go back to hunting.
>


LOL,HUH! This isn't California LOL
 
piper - The plans for development are by the Center for Biological Diversity. They want control transferred from the US Forest Service and BLM to the National Park Service where they have a better chance at realizing their true agenda, the introduction of wolves onto the Kaibab Plateau and the surrounding area. They view our most prolific deer herd as a premium source of food for wolves. They have been pressing this issue for the past decade without success. Control of these 1.7 million acres going to the NPS means wolves will be on the Kaibab within the next year. Obama is a loose cannon and will pump out out a mountain of executive orders in his last two years. The CBD views this as a cheap and easy way to bypass the AZGFD and USFWS that have shot down their wolf plans for the Kaibab in the past.

Hard for me to admit it, but the USFWS has been on our side of this issue and that is a rarity.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 
I spoke with one of the Lead Environmentalists this morning regarding to this Proposal and it's overall purpose . She (Diane) said it has nothing to do Hunting Closures or prevention of Habitat Restoration Projects period . After personally speaking with Diane she was actually pretty cordial , insightful and understanding .
Diane says , " The overall purpose regarding this Proposal is due to the significant increase of populations and Housing/commercial Development in the neighboring Communities ( ST George , Hurricane and Kanab and that it is drawing Higher traffic activities to these Regions". The lands that lie just on the Utah/Arizona Border is Prime to be picked up for Development as these Communities continue to grow . The Monument will prevent this from Happening . As Diane showed me on a map . What is currently just BLM Land for the most part on the Arizona Strip and Kaibab , the BLM and State Trade lands . What then becomes State lands then gets sold and is transitioned into Private Land . The private land then gets Developed into Commercial or Residential Property .
What really amazed me is that the Map Diane showed me , I have the same Map but 12 years older and it's crazy just how much State Property there is on the Arizona Strip compared from 12 years ago , and now that State Property can be sold to Private Property then Developed . The State and BLM exchange Properties all the time .
The Proposal Diane assured , will not prevent Hunting or Wildlife Habitat Projects . Wildlife will continue to be manage by the AZG&FD . Diane's Example is the current designated Grand Canyon Parashaunt National Monument . In 15 years of it's establishment , has Hunting been prevented ? No . Has Wildlife Habitat Projects been prevented . A few time's with compromise . But currently they have a 300k acre Wildlife Habitat Project going on as we speak on the National Monument . There are also several Wildlife Water Catchments that are being orchestrated to be Developed in the National Monument . Yes , some roads or trails will be closed .
 
a Big "THANKS" for the positive info.Always good to here from Those that are informed ... Bruce & SilverGrand
 
Mike - Just keep watching where the right hand points to the proposal but don't pay attention to what the left hand is actually doing.

Here's AZGFD's take on it:

A RESOLUTION OF THE ARIZONA GAME AND FISH COMMISSION
CONCERNING THE LOSS OF MULTIPLE-USE PUBLIC LANDS
DUE TO SPECIAL LAND-USE DESIGNATIONS

WHEREAS, Arizona?s great strength lies in the value of its public lands, and the ability for the public to access and utilize those lands for a variety of recreational uses, and

WHEREAS, although federal lands make up 42 percent of Arizona, more than 43 percent of those lands have special land use designations which prescribe significant restrictions to recreation and management. Only 23 percent of Arizona?s lands remain open for public use and free from special land use designations, OR More than 77 percent of Arizona?s lands are restricted from public access and recreation through ownership (private, state, and tribal) or through federal special land use designations, and

WHEREAS, the conservation of wildlife resources is the trust responsibility of the Arizona Game and Fish Commission (Commission) and this extends to all lands within Arizona, to ensure abundant wildlife resources for current and future generations, and

WHEREAS, with 4.5 million acres, Arizona has the third highest total designated wilderness acreage in the U.S. This, coupled with an additional 5.8 million acres of special land use designations, which include National Monuments, National Parks, National Wildlife Refuges, National Conservation Areas, Areas of Critical Environmental Concern, Wild and Scenic Rivers, and Wilderness Characteristics Areas, has caused the systematic loss of recreational opportunities and erosion of the Arizona Game and Fish Department's (Department) ability to proactively manage wildlife on more than 10.3 million acres, and
WHEREAS, the Arizona Game and Fish Department has experienced restrictions resulting from special land use designations including project delays, increased costs, increased man-hours, and legal challenges. This ultimately leads to decreased efficiency in conserving and managing Arizona?s wildlife resources, and

WHEREAS, public land managers have a responsibility to the people of Arizona to ensure continued opportunities for multiple-use recreational activities. For example, FLPMA (1976) is the Bureau of Land Management's (BLM) "organic act" that establishes the agency's multiple-use mandate to serve present and future generations. Once federal lands are converted to special use lands such as Wilderness and National Monuments, the FLPMA mandate no longer applies and those lands permanently lose multiple-use provisions, and;

WHEREAS, in spite of organic legislation emphasizing multiple-use of public lands, neither the USFS or BLM have established any objectives for acreages of public lands to be maintained in full multiple-use, free from restrictive designations in Arizona, and

WHEREAS, the Multiple-Use Sustained-Yield Act of 1960 and the Federal Land and Policy Management Act of 1976 both legally prohibit the federal land management agencies from affecting the state?s jurisdiction and responsibilities.

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Arizona Game and Fish Commission supports public land use that provides Arizona?s public and resources with a net benefit, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Arizona Game and Fish Commission does not support the continual conversion of public lands from multiple-use to land use designations that result in the net loss of wildlife resources, wildlife related recreational opportunities, and wildlife dependent economic benefit without expressed concurrence of the state of Arizona and the Commission, and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that any proposed special land use designation analyze the cumulative impacts of further loss of public lands that provide for multiple-use and wildlife related recreational and economic opportunities, and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that any proposed special land use designation on federal lands analyze the impact to the Arizona Game and Fish Department's ability to fulfill its trust responsibility to manage the state?s wildlife resources.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 
Bruce, can you spread that info and email around to the Nevada guys. Send to [email protected]

I've sent this on to some of the boys in southern Utah who ought to be all over this too!

Thanks!

Don Martin
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-15 AT 06:09PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-15 AT 05:12?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-15 AT 04:38?PM (MST)

It may stop development but in all of the years of it being there it hasn't been developed and why would it significantly increase now? I believe on the North Kaibab forest they can't develop now because it's a game preserve, so why should this monument be put in place here?

The government would have more of a say in wolves coming to this monument and that would make for far less deer.

Also access to areas would probably drastically be reduced and what good is a hunting spot if you can't get to it? There would probably be designated campgrounds that would restrict where you could camp.

Cattle grazing and stock tanks for wildlife would go away and that would make less water for wildlife. The monument would restrict how the game and fish manages wildlife which the game and fish is already managing very effectively. The monument would also restrict how the game and fish manages their wildlife catchments and catchments probably wouldn't be allowed.

With a monument tree thinning and prescribed burns would go away so you're going to eventually get a very catastrophic wildfire.

Just look at what the government just did with closing roads recently around Arizona and it just shows that it would be far worse on this monument. You can't trust the government to do anything right.
 
SageBrush: I understand what you're saying . I know that the NPS has been arrogant in the past in getting certain projects to go through . However , under the proposed Laws through compromise among all Agencies and Public opinions , under the Law , the NPS legally cannot stop a Project to going through unless it is scientifically valid . In the EAS plan , the BLM and AZG&F manage the Lands and Wildlife .
The NPS has been a pain in the a## in the past . The Habitat Restoration Project currently going on on Mt Trumbull , Mt Logan and Mt Dellanbaugh area, there was a lot of rebuttal and the NPS fought against the projects . However , Scientific Research proved the Proposed Project is beneficial for Habitat and Wildlife . Hence the requested project was Approved . There are 7 Wildlife Water Catchment Request that are currently being analyzed as we speak . Due to the locality of these Water Catchments that have been requested, there are strict guidelines . These Water's will be on Andrus Point and Grassy Mt plateau , Kelly Point , and Grand Wash Cliff's Bench . But in the mean time , waiting to get these approved, AZG&F , BLM etc are redeveloping existing waters .
 
So will they put into writing that they will not put in WOLVES or GHOST BEARS once it come a National Monument.
Water will always be a issue.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
AZMIGHTYMULIES,

The National Park Serice has a current problem with buffalo in the Grand Canyon NP. This issue has been festering for a few years, yet they still can't figure out what to do. A simple fix, yet the bureaucracy and red tape precludes them from taking the obvious solution.

You want them in charge when it comes to the greatest mule deer habitat in the world?
 
Mike - You do realize you just made my case to oppose the GCWNM? AZGFD & the BLM have projects they are ready to begin but they are being held up while the NPS "studies" the proposals. More work, more resources wasted and nothing is getting done because the NPS is in the way.

Meanwhile, similar projects are moving ahead full steam on lands not under management by the NPS.

I promise you, if the proposed projects were a containment enclosure for wolves in preparation for release on the Kaibab, the NPS would have bulldozers in the wilderness area to get it done. And the NPS will give priority to the projects they deem "worthy" as presented by the Center for Biological Diversity if they are given control of the Kaibab and the Strip.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard
 
In 1906, Teddy Roosevelt made the North Kaibab a game preserve with the intentions to protect the mule deer from over hunting by humans and predation from natural enemies. Teddy Roosevelt's intentions weren't to have the mule deer become wolf food.
 
Soon the lefties will claim the only way to control the Beefalo population will be the introduction of wolves.
 

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