ANTLER RESTRICTIONS

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​There seems to be much concern about recruiting new hunters and keeping current ones yet Utah discourages hunting by making deer hunters wait a year or two between hunts. Hunters should be able to hunt bucks every year such that they can freely plan the annual buck hunt with friends and family. You make them sit out a year or two and many will just lose the habit and sit out permanently. Hard to recruit new hunters under this system. Employing antler restrictions of at least three points on a side will allow everyone to hunt every year with out damage to the breeding buck herd. Instead of killing mostly small yearling bucks, those will become the primary breeders. The first year of antler restrictions will result in a very low buck kill as most of the yearlings will be spared but the second year kill will rise considerably. The range will have to carry more bucks but we are well under population objectives and can support more bucks. We are smart hunters and will have little trouble adjusting to antler restrictions. We already have buck antler restrictions in the management 3 point tags in the trophy buck areas. We have long had elk antler restrictions in the spike hunts where you can search out a legal 6 by 3 spike or simply take one that does not have an additional point on one side..

The trade off is that we will establish an annual deer hunt for everyone at the expense of a smaller deer kill. The older bucks will be tougher hunt than the little and less wary yearlings that now comprise the bulk of the buck kill. These yearlings have spent most of their short lives hanging with unhunted and unwary does. Another downside will be more pressure on mature bucks and some mistaken kills of younger bucks but far less than the younger bucks taken now. I think many hunters would trade an annual hunt but take home fewer but bigger bucks. Yearlings grow a lot bigger into their second year.

There is precedence, Pennsylvania had a grand tradition of an annual buck hunt for all -usually around a million hunters in an area half the size of Utah. The kill rate was low-under 10% and almost exclusively yearlings. The key was the annual tradition not the kill rate. About ten years ago, they went to antler restrictions of 3 points to a side and in some areas 4 points. The grand hunting tradition continued-you can count on hunting every year with the bonus of bigger bucks than before.

This is a no brainer WIN WIN WIN that has no real downside.​
 
Beating a dead horse, too many people just shooting away and NOT counting points. PA vs Ut? That's reaching.
 
I didn't read your whole speech but that is the reason you have to wait 1-3 years to hunt there are to many hunter. It's not going to die off or push people to stop hunting if they have to wait a year or 2 anytime soon!
hornkiller.jpg
 
Utah did try that about 30 years ago Three points or better areas and some four points or better areas. Too many big two points laying in the bushes going to waste. Hell I even heard about a 30 inch two point getting shot just because it was so big the hunter thought it had to be a least a three point. It didn't work in Utah. The three point management hunts work because the racks are bigger and easier to count. For MOST! :D
 
In Utah antler restrictions only work for elk. See us Utards can be trusted by the state to tell a spike bull or 1x2 compared to a branch-antlered bull. But when it comes to deer, we get too stupid to count and the same logic doesn't transfer from elk to deer.

This has never made sense to me and I haven't heard anyone question the logic before. Sure elk have bigger antlers but there are some iffy-looking spikes/bulls running around.
 
>I thought hunting was supposed to
>be about getting meat.


That's how it all started for most of us old guys. But it has changed over the years for some. I hunt the second season in Colorado just because the Deer taste better. That's just me and my hunting buddies choice.
 
>Utah did try that about 30
>years ago Three points or
>better areas and some four
>points or better areas. Too
>many big two points laying
>in the bushes going to
>waste. Hell I even heard
>about a 30 inch two
>point getting shot just because
>it was so big the
>hunter thought it had to
>be a least a three
>point. It didn't work in
>Utah. The three point
>management hunts work because the
>racks are bigger and easier
>to count. For MOST! :D
>

I was part of that movement in Utah years ago. I put petitions through out Richfield and had 3000 signatures in two weeks. "Too many big two points laying in the bushes going to waste". What a load of crap. Right now you would probably see more does killed because someone thought they were spikes. The only reason it didn't work is because the DWR didn't want it to work. It stunk of Division politics. It even saved a lot of three and four points because of the hesitation to make sure it was legal.
 
>>Utah did try that about 30
>>years ago Three points or
>>better areas and some four
>>points or better areas. Too
>>many big two points laying
>>in the bushes going to
>>waste. Hell I even heard
>>about a 30 inch two
>>point getting shot just because
>>it was so big the
>>hunter thought it had to
>>be a least a three
>>point. It didn't work in
>>Utah. The three point
>>management hunts work because the
>>racks are bigger and easier
>>to count. For MOST! :D
>>
>
>I was part of that movement
>in Utah years ago.
>I put petitions through out
>Richfield and had 3000 signatures
>in two weeks. "Too
>many big two points laying
>in the bushes going to
>waste". What a load
>of crap. Right now
>you would probably see more
>does killed because someone thought
>they were spikes. The
>only reason it didn't work
>is because the DWR didn't
>want it to work.
>It stunk of Division politics.
> It even saved a
>lot of three and four
>points because of the hesitation
>to make sure it was
>legal.

You could be right on the politics the info I got I read somewhere and we all know if its in print its true right :D. I will agree on the hesitation to make sure it was legal. I let a buck go that I couldn't tell if it was legal at first light and it turned out to be a crab claw four point!
 
>>>Utah did try that about 30
>>>years ago Three points or
>>>better areas and some four
>>>points or better areas. Too
>>>many big two points laying
>>>in the bushes going to
>>>waste. Hell I even heard
>>>about a 30 inch two
>>>point getting shot just because
>>>it was so big the
>>>hunter thought it had to
>>>be a least a three
>>>point. It didn't work in
>>>Utah. The three point
>>>management hunts work because the
>>>racks are bigger and easier
>>>to count. For MOST! :D
>>>
>>
>>I was part of that movement
>>in Utah years ago.
>>I put petitions through out
>>Richfield and had 3000 signatures
>>in two weeks. "Too
>>many big two points laying
>>in the bushes going to
>>waste". What a load
>>of crap. Right now
>>you would probably see more
>>does killed because someone thought
>>they were spikes. The
>>only reason it didn't work
>>is because the DWR didn't
>>want it to work.
>>It stunk of Division politics.
>> It even saved a
>>lot of three and four
>>points because of the hesitation
>>to make sure it was
>>legal.
>
>You could be right on the
>politics the info I got
>I read somewhere and we
>all know if its in
>print its true right :D.
>I will agree on the
>hesitation to make sure it
>was legal. I let a
>buck go that I couldn't
>tell if it was legal
>at first light and it
>turned out to be a
>crab claw four point!

30 years ago only 2 in 3 hunters had a scope on their rifle and only 1 in 7 hunters had binoculars because Vortex and their lifetime warranty hadn't yet been discovered.

There is no logical reason to justify spike/antlered bull hunts and not be able to discriminate the same thing with deer. That ##### just doesn't fly.
 
>Shooting yearling two points is like
>driving a pink Prius, no
>grown ass man should do
>it!!

LMAO!

But True!:D












[font color="blue"]HUNTIN,FISHIN,AND LOVIN EVERY DAY,I WANNA SEE
THEM TALL PINES SWAY!
[/font]
 
>>I thought hunting was supposed to
>>be about getting meat.
>
>
>That's how it all started for
>most of us old guys.
>But it has changed over
>the years for some. I
>hunt the second season in
>Colorado just because the Deer
>taste better. That's just me
>and my hunting buddies choice.
>

Are you satisfied you still have an option and would you still be satisfied if that were removed?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-17-16 AT 11:34PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-17-16 AT 09:58?PM (MST)

>Shooting yearling two points is like
>driving a pink Prius, no
>grown ass man should do
>it!!

So, a man's maturity should be determined by the size of the antlers of the deer he brings home to his family? Or the color and make of the car he drives?
 
>>Shooting yearling two points is like
>>driving a pink Prius, no
>>grown ass man should do
>>it!!
>
>LMAO!
>
>But True!:D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[font color="blue"]HUNTIN,FISHIN,AND LOVIN EVERY DAY,I WANNA
>SEE
>THEM TALL PINES SWAY!
>[/font]
>
>

The only people I see shooting yearling 2 pointers are these punk kids driving around with jacked up trucks, big-buck stickers in the rear window and wearing flat-brim hats. You know who you are.
 
I would rather a hunter shoot whatever buck he wants and eat the meat than some dude that only cares about the antlers shooting a buck and then throwing away the meat after it has sat in the freezer for a couple years.

If you want to shoot only a 4 point or bigger, Great do it. It's your choice. If you want a buck for the freezer, great do it. it's your choice.

Don't get me wrong, I will always take the biggest buck I can. but I am not going to belittle someone else for taking whatever makes him happy.
 
>I would rather a hunter shoot
>whatever buck he wants and
>eat the meat than some
>dude that only cares about
>the antlers shooting a buck
>and then throwing away the
>meat after it has sat
>in the freezer for a
>couple years.
>
>If you want to shoot only
>a 4 point or bigger,
>Great do it. It's your
>choice. If you want a
>buck for the freezer, great
>do it. it's your choice.
>
>
>Don't get me wrong, I will
>always take the biggest buck
>I can. but I am
>not going to belittle someone
>else for taking whatever makes
>him happy.


Thats how I feel about it too. Well said.
 
I think there are some units that would benefit from such regulations like Box Elder & Cache and other units where it isn't necessary such a Panguitch & Beaver.

It should be a unit by unit thing. Idaho & Wyoming have some areas with such regulations, but it isn't a statewide regulation.

I think if they ran the deer & OTC Spike/Bull from October 1st-7th to 31st every year. It could help get more people out. Some may have a deer tag and some may have an elk tag, but you can still have a camp set up and hunt every year.
 
>I would rather a hunter shoot
>whatever buck he wants and
>eat the meat than some
>dude that only cares about
>the antlers shooting a buck
>and then throwing away the
>meat after it has sat
>in the freezer for a
>couple years.
>
>If you want to shoot only
>a 4 point or bigger,
>Great do it. It's your
>choice. If you want a
>buck for the freezer, great
>do it. it's your choice.
>
>
>Don't get me wrong, I will
>always take the biggest buck
>I can. but I am
>not going to belittle someone
>else for taking whatever makes
>him happy.

Yes! And I always want to be able to make the choice!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-18-16 AT 03:35PM (MST)[p]>I think there are some units
>that would benefit from such
>regulations like Box Elder &
>Cache and other units where
>it isn't necessary such a
>Panguitch & Beaver.
>
>

Benefit who?
 
Elkantlers gets it . If a 2 point gets eaten by friends and family , great . If for a 200" deer gets freezer burn and thrown away , what is gained ? Other than some sperm transfer? I have enjoyed the meat of many a small buck , enjoyed it much more than listening to some blowhard's story about the big one that got away
 
I have eaten a lot of larger deer that are every bit as good as the young ones. Older elk on the other hand are terrible as compared to a spike.
 
Antler restriction does have a place. But a lot of lies and half truths have tainted it. As far as meat and only hunting for meat. Well here's an idea. Why don't we make all hunters choose. If you prefer meat over all else then apply for antlerlessand only antlerless. More and more hunters every year. Time to make them really pick their poison.
 
>Antler restriction does have a place.
> But a lot of
>lies and half truths have
>tainted it. As far
>as meat and only hunting
>for meat. Well here's
>an idea. Why don't
>we make all hunters choose.
> If you prefer meat
>over all else then apply
>for antlerlessand only antlerless. More
>and more hunters every year.
> Time to make them
>really pick their poison.

Myself I don't hunt only for the meat. I like to Buck hunt I look for the biggest buck on the mountain until a good sized fat buck comes by then its in trouble. I got to have something to grab ahold of when I drag it off the mountain. A pair of ears just don't cut it. :D Here's my T shirt and Motto.

25222front.jpg


19263wmback.jpg
 
>Brutus,
>So are you saying you don't
>apply for antlerless?

No I don't I am the only one that eats Deer meat at my house. Between Utah and Colorado I draw at least one tag every year and one Deer is about all I can eat without wasting some. So no need for antlerless if I can't eat it I don't what to shoot one.
 
Perfect, that should leave more tags for those that are really interested in the meat.

Would be interesting to see how it effected the point creep and draw odds if we combined all of the hunts and point systems. LE, General and Antlerless.
 
>Perfect, that should leave more tags
>for those that are really
>interested in the meat.
>
>Would be interesting to see how
>it effected the point creep
>and draw odds if we
>combined all of the hunts
>and point systems. LE,
>General and Antlerless.


Well that's the first time I heard that one come up.lol I do remember before I could hunt the Deer tags were state wide either sex. That made it easy hunt for a Buck for awhile if you didn't find one put a tag on a Doe.
 
more restrictions, just what we DON'T need. Plus why do people feel that EVERY hunter out there has the same goal as them?
You ask 100 hunters what their goals are in a hunt and you will get 101 different answers.

Yes I love chasing big bucks but I sure as hell don't want to force every one else into doing something my way just because I want to...

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
I don't think that would take anything away. All the same oppirtunity with better odds on hunting the way that each individual wants to hunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-20-16 AT 05:39PM (MST)[p]I've hunted the same GS unit for deer 5 years in a row now. This year will be #6
With that said, regardless whether it's scouting season, or deer hunting season, the buck to doe ratio from what I see is nearly 50/50. That's what I've consistently seen now for the past 3 years.
Granted....most of the bucks I see are yearlings. But even some of them have 3 points on at least one side.

It's almost 100% odds with no points to draw the tag.
Plenty of bucks to be had! The problem is people can't seem to get away from all the roads. From what I see, most people don't want to work for a buck.
I even see several decent mature bucks every year as well.
Take your pick and try and make it happen. If you want big...hold out!
If you want a yearling.... They are there too!

To each there own I guess. But to say we need antler restrictions....I would say it's not needed.
If you're not finding bucks, scout more, work harder, hike more.
You'll find em.




"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
>Hunters and Deer Herds in the
>area.

That's a generic response. Be more specific. How do antler restrictions benefit deer herds and which hunters?
 
>>Hunters and Deer Herds in the
>>area.
>
>That's a generic response. Be more
>specific. How do antler restrictions
>benefit deer herds and which
>hunters?


Antler restrictions give a higher average buck age population. More mature bucks make a healthier herd and happier hunters because there are actually older age class bucks, not just for hunting but also for wildlife viewing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-20-16 AT 10:38PM (MST)[p]>I don't think that would take
>anything away. All the
>same oppirtunity with better odds
>on hunting the way that
>each individual wants to hunt.
>

Of course it would take something away! In fact, it could take several things away, depending on the hunter. Opportunity isn't just the number of tags. It also includes areas available for hunting, time available for hunting, animals available for hunting, costs involved, age of the hunter, weapon requirements or limitations among other things. But the most obvious thing this proposal takes away is the number of bucks available to shoot. The unit may have a 17/100 buck to doe ratio biologically, which is according to the unit management plan, but the buck to doe ratio for hunters is about 1/2 that number, I would guess. (I haven't figured the exact math because there are too many other factors involved including tag numbers, success rates, fawn survival rates, etc. but it definitely would be less.) The majority of the bucks seen would be off limits and it's as if they didn't even exist and they all would be a lost opportunity! And the odds for those who would like to take a yearling buck are ZERO!

Additionally, those legal older bucks would be harder to find and harder to get close to because hunters are concentrating all their efforts of them and pushing them into the shadows and we would end up feeding many more of them to cougars, coyotes, crows and magpies than we do now.

Another long term consequence nobody seems to recognize or be willing to talk about is the grooming of a generation or generations of trophy hunters. We already have some who think it's unmanly or whimpy (whatever those terms mean) to shoot a spike or 2-point deer, a "dink" antelope, or an average OIL animal and now we'd be telling our youth that, among other things, shooting any deer with antlers under 3 points is not only undesirable, but illegal. And guess which units most of those new trophy hunters will apply for in the future! Point creep? You ain't seen nothin" yet!

No matter how you spin it, imposing low antler point restrictions equates to managing for trophies which is not what we should be doing with general units and doing so will come back to haunt all hunters.
 
How about if a kid doesn't draw a deer tag you take him or her to shoot chukar, or waterfowl? That's how a lot of us grew up and it made my passion for big game hunting even greater.
 
Most likely success rates would be lower in the first year or two-- then after that, success rates would begin to go back up because there are more bucks to hunt. The success rate would just probably level off after a few years. We would probably just be killing older more mature bucks. As long as mother nature doesn't do some of them in first in a tough winter, it would be become much more common to kill a mature 4 point than it is now.
 
More does get bred the first cycle which means more fawns dropping in the same cycle which equals less fawn predation. Higher fawn recruitment means bigger herds and being born early in the summer gives the fawns a better chance of making it through their first winter.

If you have any more questions, refer yourself to some wildlife biology books. I don't make a habit of hand-holding ignorant people. Educate yourself.
 
Lee,
Slow down and read my comments before you spend an hour typing a response that doesn't make any sense. Combining the draw for LE, General, Antlerless would NOT hurt opportunity. It would allowe more hunters in the field while slowing the creep. Antler restriction could just be added in if desired.
 
>More does get bred the first
>cycle which means more fawns
>dropping in the same cycle
>which equals less fawn predation.
>Higher fawn recruitment means bigger
>herds and being born early
>in the summer gives the
>fawns a better chance of
>making it through their first
>winter.
>
>If you have any more questions,
>refer yourself to some wildlife
>biology books. I don't make
>a habit of hand-holding ignorant
>people. Educate yourself.

I fully understand that it is beneficial to have some mature bucks in a herd but studies show the majority of does are bred during their first cycle even in the absence of mature bucks. Just because you put antler restrictions in place doesn't mean there will be any more 4-5 year old bucks on the landscape.
Most of the people wanting antler restrictions wouldn't hesitate to kill a 2.5 year old 18" crab clawed four point. Which means that buck isn't going to reach full maturity.

And sorry, no insults in my response.
 
Muley,

Give it up! I've been singing that song for a few years now and nobody will be interested until the maximum bonus points top 50. You can't get the BGB to move on this one. It's the best way to sort the trophy hunters from the meat hunters and give everyone a hunt though.
 
>Lee,
>Slow down and read my comments
>before you spend an hour
>typing a response that
>doesn't make any sense.
>Combining the draw for LE,
>General, Antlerless would NOT hurt
>opportunity. It would allowe
>more hunters in the field
>while slowing the creep.
>Antler restriction could just be
>added in if desired.

Since you didn't address post #31 with any references to prior posts or authors, I assumed you were referring to the OP which specifically talks about antler point restrictions and that's what I responded to in post #35. I'm sorry for the assumption and the confusion.

In any case, I'll stand by my statements/opinions in post #35 when it comes to antler point restrictions and some of the other proposals I've seen that restrict or take away opportunities to hunt while promoting trophy hunting. Opportunity hunting and trophy hunting are about much more than just the number of permits issued!

As for your idea about combining or integrating various hunting programs and permits, that's something the DWR has on their radar and study list, per the recommendation of the Mule Deer Committee, but I'm not sure what progress as been made (or not!) There are some major issues (legal and otherwise) that have to be resolved before that can happen, but there will be winners and losers no matter what they decide. I just don't want to see opportunity hunting become the loser on General hunts.

But the bottom line is General hunts are designed for opportunity and the size of the antlers isn't even an issue that should be considered or discussed!
 
Lee,
Your last comment is interesting. Antler size should have nothing to do with it....ok. However a healthy biologically sound herd would be made up of bucks across the age spectrum including a higher number of mature bucks. Those bucks generally have larger antlers. So you pin it as we only support antler restriction because we are trophy hunters. No we support it be cause it gives most bucks a one year grace period to mature and grow. Some of the result may be larger antlers but the overall benifit is more bucks to breed and more mature bucks to biologically balance the herd. A biologically sound and healthier herd will produce more oppurtunity over the long run. Kind of like letting your golden goose keeps it head.

I am without any question at all tainted when it comes to antler restriction and my views on it. Mostly due to being as close as I possibly could to the original horseshitt battle. But to say that it affects opportunity in a negative way is asinine. Maybe opportunity of antler size you can shoot but not opportunity to put hunters in the field.

As far as combined draws. It would take all of us to come together and push. As long as we fight and disagree amongst ourselves it will never happen. The DWR will use us against each other to maintain the status quo no matter what that is. It's less work and worry for them. That's how government agencies work.
 
The point of my original post is to increase HUNTING OPERTUNITY. The older bucks will be more difficult to take such that DWR can issue more tags allowing more hunters afield to achieve the same amount of kill. DWR also benefits in selling more tags.
 
That's an awful lot of pressure on the higher age class bucks and I thought those are the very ones that we needed for a healthy herd.

just thinking out loud,
Zeke
 
Zeke,
How is it more pressure? Most of the hunters that would shoot a yearling will now most likely still shoot the first legal buck they see. The buck is just a year older and a little wiser so you have a larger percent slip through? The question would be post hunt. Have more mature bucks slipped through with antler restriction? If there are more mature bucks in the herd to start I would assume there would be more that slip through. So in the end your number of mature bucks is larger.

I guess it all depends on success rate, to increase tags and not have a larger impact on the herd you would need success rates to decrease. To me antler restriction gives bucks an extra year to mature and gain some smarts. Making them tougher to harvest. There are also other options, more primitive hunts and less rifle tags would decrease success allowing more tags issued. All easy things to implement just not the status quo. Making excuse to do nothing is always the easiest path.
 
I agree with Zeke. Never understood why some want all the hunting pressure on the very animal they are trying to protect-- mature bucks. Right now the guy who just wants a buck shoots the first legal buck he sees and goes home. Make him stay in the field longer and he has a higher chance of coming across a mature buck.

Of course there are the biologist haters out there who won't believe this, but the following link has some good info-- gathered from Public, Private, and University studies.

http://www.wafwa.org/Documents and ...e Deer/FactSheets/MDWG Fact Sheet 06 APRs.pdf

Some highlights--
--Research has shown buck fawns born to does in poor body condition have difficulty outgrowing the effects of poor body condition at birth, and may never reach their genetic potential for antler growth. Regulations protecting these bucks from harvest are counterproductive to the intended benefit.

--The two main reasons for abandoning widespread antler point restrictions are (1) unacceptable accidental-illegal kill, and (2) harvest mortality was increased (focused) on the very age classes they intended to promote.

--Antler point restrictions focus all the hunting pressure on the oldest age classes of bucks, gradually decrease the average age of the buck segment of the population, and make it more difficult for bucks to reach the older age classes due to the displaced harvest pressure.

Finally for me, I have hunted moose and elk in SW WY where they have antler-restrictions-- we hunt after the deer season and this is what we have found on multiple occasions. Of course I'm sure they are all wounded bucks that were not recovered, uh-huh....

 
The other issue that no one seems to address is the added stress on the habitat to carry deer for an additional year or two or more just so we can trophy hunt them. ...and if we're not trophy hunting then we're just shooting a slightly larger meat buck. what's the point?

I've always said that if you don't mount it on the wall then it's just a meat buck (which isn't bad but it might as well be a 2 point)

Honestly, we SHOULD be shooting some of the old non-breeding does since they impact the habitat and add nothing to the future of the herd. This would be almost impossible to implement but it would work if it could be,.

I love to trophy hunt as much as the next guy but I'm not sure this in the place for that activity and I'm far from convinced that it's best for herd-health.

Zeke
 
Packout,
Illegal kill....hmmm yet we seem to flourish with it on our elk herds. How many does were poached last season during the hunt? Should we just open the season to either sex to avoid illegal kills?

Zeke,
What areas of the state are actually over or act carrying capacity? We can not even hit the lowball capacity numbers the DWR currently tries to sell us.

It's all a moot point in the end. The state will stay status quo. Add a little here and there to appease the opportunity guys and cut back a little if a herd absolutly bombs and the local sportdman groups gets pissed off enough to scream at few RAC meetings.
 
The deer herds are below objective allowing carrying an additional age class of bucks with antler restrictions. This is not a trophy hunting proposal-just the opposite- it will increase pressure on older trophy bucks - decreasing their population. The average buck taken will increase in body size and carry small 3 and 4 point racks. In my opinion, the average hunter will not work that much harder buck hunting, he just won't harvest as many bucks but he will hunt more often.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-16 AT 03:43PM (MST)[p]So this would be a biologically sound move for the benefit of the herd and not a trophy hunting program? You'll have to run faster than that!

Remember, we don't all have to agree to be on the same side.
Zeke

Edit: damn spelling
 
Muley-- Come on man, you're off your internet-moral-superiority game! I expect more than a simple call to make it either-sex if we can't have antler restrictions.

To everyone else, it wasn't the State that didn't recommend 3 point or better (although they wouldn't choose to). It was the Mule Deer Committee who discarded the idea. The Committee was comprised of multiple SFW leaders, MDF, CWMU, various sportsmen from across the State, private biologists, UDWR, University biologists, Federal lands reps, etc-- I think there were 22 members. Antler restrictions were voted down 20 or 21 to 1 or 2- it wasn't even close.

As for the "carrying capacity" argument-- the fat studies (completed by BYU biologists) performed on deer herds across the state are showing that some units (general season units) are at current capacity. Of course capacity depends on the weather and fluctuates over the years.

But there is still room to grow deer out there-- the question is: Would you rather have 5 more doe to produce 4 more fawns each year or would you rather have 5 more bucks? It does end up being an "either/or" as the herds come to a carrying capacity on certain units.
 
Packout,
I think if I agree with Zeke and say a doe is more important than a buck than morally as conservationists we should be more concerned with an illegally shot doe than a spike or 2 point buck? If that is the case I would ask how big of an actual Impact does illegally shot bucks have in an antler restriction area herd? The illegal kill is not a valid excuse to not implement antler restriction. We do it with elk just fine. Does it happen...yes. Is it that big of an issue....Nope. It's just a convinent agrument.

Zeke,
In a perfectly balanced deer herd are there more than mature bucks in the herd than in a herd with say 15 buck per 100 does? We harvest the youngest bucks so heavily because they are the easiest to target for most hunters. Those deer would eventually mature if not shot young. Explain how letting them live an extra year puts more pressure on the mature bucks? I explained that one extra year makes them smarter and more difficult to harvest thus lowering success rates and allowing more tags to be issued. You say it forces hunters to hunt harder and put more pressure on the bigger bucks. How? Because they shoot a potential big buck when it's a yearling before it matures, and go home if there is not antler restriction? I would say a safer bet is they hunt the exact same way they have always and it results in less success. We now have micro units, try it on 3 and see what the results are. I guarentee you with in 3 years those 3 units will be the most sought after most points to draw "genera" units. And that is the real reason some won't allow it to happen. If people get a taste of what is possible they will push for more and it will challenge the status quo. That is just more work. Secondary result is when push comes to shove people want to chase bigger more mature bucks and it deflates the whole opportunity over all else platform.
 
I'm proud to be an American where we have the right to express our opinion. I'm also proud to be a small part of some of the MM discussions where tempers don't flare and we can talk through issues, disagree and still maintain our civility. This is one of those times!

I'm trying really hard to see your side of the discussion but at the end of the day it's all about the trophy and less about the guy who wants an opportunity kill. I personally LOVE the idea of trophy hunting and 3 point regs but it's a fine way to snub hunters who haven't been as lucky or lived as long as me. I realize that it isn't alway about me or what I want nor is it always about you or what you want. Too bad when decisions are made contrary to our liking we often muse about how stupid the decision-makers are. Ha

Don't tell me what the average guy wants based on your circle or the guys on MM. THIS ISN'T A CROSS-SECTION OF AVERAGE!

Best,
Zeke
 
Zeke,
I don't really hunt with a group that would be considered "trophy hunters". In fact I hunt with mostly family that would be considered disengaged and would lean more toward a tag in pocket every year. I base my view a several factors. I look at the point creep on LE elk and LE deer and I see that antler size matters to many. The same on some general units. People hear a unit is hot and the odds get worse. I also read a study that was done in Colorado several years ago. It was about micro units. At first the general public opposed it. Their Division of wildlife was the group pushing it not the Sportsmen. After several years the division had gathered the data they needed and raised to question of moving away from this and increasing tags. There was out cry from the same soortsmen that they wanted it left alone because it was producing an opportunity for more mature bucks. I believe if you show people a way to grow bigger bucks without cutting tags, ie antler restriction, primitive only units ect. The DWR would be hard pressed in show the majority of hunters just wanting the status quo as we know or now.
 
Well..... maybe we let the hunter decide if he wants to buy a permit for a 3 point or better buck or just a 2 point or smaller buck permit... or we could ask the DWR to put into place a 50/50 permit rule.. 50% of the permits for 3 point or larger and 50% for a 2 point or smaller buck. Then we could split the general season into 5 days each-- first year give the 2 point or smaller buck permit holders the first 5 days then let the 3 point or better permit holders have the next 5 days... then the rotate it so the next year the 3 point or better permit holders would have the first crack. Wow, this is getting more and more complicated.....
 
I can think of a group of hunters that would not benefit from three point or better. Our senior citizens and handicapped that are not physically able to get very far from a road or trail. But still want to go chase bucks with the rest of us. They want to shoot a bigger buck but if it is not close to a road or a trial and the opportunity to shoot a two point or spike to fill a tag is not available thats not fair to them. And this topic is about Antlers so shooting a doe is not what they bought a permit for. So think about that side of it because we all are going to become road hunters at some point!!! :D
 
I'm a Senior and don't get to far away from the road, but still have some of the drive left. I have to laugh at this though because I went out on one of the units the opening morning of the ML hunt. I told my kids we had to be out there right at day light because a lot of these youngsters sleep in until the sun is up. We were practically alone for the first couple of hours of the season.

They couldn't believe it and, yes - we did see the buck. No doubt about it the big ones are further from the road and we seniors just need to hunt smarter not harder. :)
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-05-16 AT 06:41PM (MST)[p]>Well..... maybe we let the hunter
>decide if he wants to
>buy a permit for a
>3 point or better buck
>or just a 2 point
>or smaller buck permit... or
>we could ask the DWR
>to put into place a
>50/50 permit rule.. 50% of
>the permits for 3 point
>or larger and 50% for
>a 2 point or smaller
>buck. Then we could split
>the general season into 5
>days each-- first year give
>the 2 point or smaller
>buck permit holders the first
>5 days then let the
>3 point or better permit
>holders have the next 5
>days... then the rotate it
>so the next year the
>3 point or better permit
>holders would have the first
>crack. Wow, this is getting
>more and more complicated.....

Yes, let's continue to ignore the Mule Deer Management Plan (and Elk Management Plan) and make this so outlandishly complicated that more of the less active/involved hunters will just give up and drop out, thus reducing the point creep and allowing the "real" hunters a better/easier opportunity to add another head on the wall.

Sorry, OP, but the premise of this whole thread has NOTHING to do with increasing the opportunity for the General Unit deer hunters. Maybe that was your intent, but removing a hunter's choice to shoot a yearling buck doesn't grow herds and even if it did, the DWR would catch h*ll if they had to explain the reason for any tag increases. And it won't recruit as many new hunters as you assume. Kids just want to go with dad or grandpa and the size of the antlers only matter to them if dad or grandpa makes an issue out of it. (I have a good friend/neighbor who feels he has to apologize to me for a grown son who regularly shoots younger deer. "Not in this house/family" is how he usually puts it.)

This issue (and ALL of the other proposals and attempts I've heard to grow more bigger antlered bucks on General Units) was thoroughly discussed on the Mule Deer Committee and we voted no on nearly all of them because that is not the purpose of General Units. That's what the Limited Entry Units are for!

Shooting only the older bucks DOES NOT insure a growing herd and an increased number of tags. Quite the opposite is true. Of the 29 current General Units 22 have buck to doe ratios OVER the objectives and the other 7 are within the objectives. NONE are below! Ten of the 29 are also over population objectives, 1 is at population objective and of the other 18 below objective, 14 are in a rising trend. And of the 4 not rising, 2 include Limited Entry Units (where young bucks are seldom if ever taken) in the count (Fillmore/Oak Creek and LaSal/Dolores Triangle). That leaves only 2 General Deer units that are legitimately mot improving.

However, of the 2 Premium LE units and 7 LE units where all of the bucks taken are mature, only Paunsaugunt (4%) and Henry Mtns (33%) show an increase in population. Of the others, Book Cliffs shows a 1% drop, Dolores Triangle shows an 11% drop, and Elk Ridge is the same. (The others are not listed, but I'll do some research and update this post later.) So the Pauns & Henries got tag increases, right? NOPE, they stayed the same as last year.

Bottom line: killing only 3 point+ bucks can do nothing to increase populations, tags or opportunity in spite of what we think or wish. But following the 5 year Mule Deer Management Plan can!
 
Simple solution... those who want meat give them forkhorn/doe tag and those that want something bigger give them a three point tag... four points tags goes to the trophy hunters :)
 
>Simple solution... those who want meat
>give them forkhorn/doe tag and
>those that want something bigger
>give them a three point
>tag... four points tags goes
>to the trophy hunters :)
>

And hire several hundred new CO's to make sure nobody poaches or cheats. Or split the hunts 12 ways to accommodate each weapon and antlerless and all 3 head antler point counts. Or we could just follow the Mule Deer Plan and leave mandatory antler counts out of it and let the hunter shoot whatever he/she wants without having to worry about making a mistake. Nah, that's way too simple and couldn't possibly work!
 
How many extra COs did the state have to hire to accommodate spike only elk hunting?

Like I said above status quo. Listen to what Lee is saying. Do nothing, just follow the status quo. Even when the Mule Deer committee met its was status quo. Anything outside the status quo was met with resistance and shot down. Things could change and should change but it's far to easy let them just stay the same.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-16 AT 09:27AM (MST)[p]Everybody wants there piece of the pie.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-09-16 AT 01:18AM (MST)[p]>How many extra COs did the
>state have to hire to
>accommodate spike only elk hunting?
>
>
>Like I said above status quo.
> Listen to what Lee
>is saying. Do nothing,
>just follow the status quo.
> Even when the Mule
>Deer committee met its was
>status quo. Anything outside
>the status quo was met
>with resistance and shot down.
> Things could change and
>should change but it's far
>to easy let them just
>stay the same.

So what is it about the "status quo" (as you put it) or the results of the last 3 or 4 years that you don't like? And what changes would make things better for ALL deer hunters?

You like playing word games that attempt to generate emotions, but it's time to back up your words with stats, studies, details, and plans.

What things outside of the status quo were shot down by the Deer Committee and why? What things outside of the status quo were accepted and why? What things should change and why?
How would your proposed changes recruit new hunters and retain experienced hunters? How would your proposed changes grow the herds and increase permits? We look forward to your enlightening answers!
 
Lee,
I read through your post a couple of times and couldn't see the number of COs that where added when elk hunting went antler restriction in most units? How many COs did the state need to add then they made this change?

Changing the weapons and seasons is a pretty easy fix to increase opportunity. You can do this while spreading pressure and lowering success rates. Some of the changes can do this along with increasing the mature buck numbers on the unit. There are many changes that Utah DWR could implement. Look at the states around us! Our deer hunts have not changed for decades other than cap 25 years ago and our 15 year behind the curve of switching to micro units. Hanging onto the past and the way it use to be only puts us further behind now. Lower deer numbers and higher hunter population. Time to start thinking outside of the box Utah. As for New Hunter recruitment, I believe the number of hunters applying for deer tags has gone up every year since going to micro units. I wonder why that is? Could it be because of more mature bucks being harvested and higher success rates? Lee you always claim its just about having a tag and getting out and thats what most people want. Yet when the buck or bulls get bigger it sure shows where people put their money.

Status quo is for the worried and faint of heart. It why its so easy to sell. Its what makes us feel ok about not striving to make things better. Its the easy way and least resistant. Its what others do to try and keep the most people happy. But it doesn't ever mean its the best route.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-25-16 AT 09:53PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-25-16 AT 06:29?PM (MST)

>Lee,
>I read through your post a
>couple of times and couldn't
>see the number of COs
>that where added when elk
>hunting went antler restriction in
>most units? How many COs
>did the state need to
>add then they made this
>change?
>
>Changing the weapons and seasons is
>a pretty easy fix to
>increase opportunity. You can
>do this while spreading pressure
>and lowering success rates.
>Some of the changes can
>do this along with increasing
>the mature buck numbers on
>the unit. There are
>many changes that Utah DWR
>could implement. Look at
>the states around us!
>Our deer hunts have not
>changed for decades other than
>cap 25 years ago and
>our 15 year behind the
>curve of switching to micro
>units. Hanging onto the
>past and the way it
>use to be only puts
>us further behind now.
>Lower deer numbers and higher
>hunter population. Time to
>start thinking outside of the
>box Utah. As for
>New Hunter recruitment, I believe
>the number of hunters applying
>for deer tags has gone
>up every year since going
>to micro units. I
>wonder why that is?
>Could it be because of
>more mature bucks being harvested
>and higher success rates?
>Lee you always claim its
>just about having a tag
>and getting out and thats
>what most people want.
>Yet when the buck or
>bulls get bigger it sure
>shows where people put their
>money.
>
>Status quo is for the worried
>and faint of heart.
>It why its so easy
>to sell. Its what makes
>us feel ok about not
>striving to make things better.
> Its the easy way
>and least resistant. Its what
>others do to try and
>keep the most people happy.
> But it doesn't ever
>mean its the best route.
>
>

First off, your (and others') comparison of a spike vs branch antlered elk hunt with the solution "quest" proposed for deer in post 61 is quite a stretch. He wants SEPERATE tags for antlerless, for doe/forkhorn bucks, for three point bucks, and for four point and over bucks. Identifying those smaller antlers on a live, moving deer is tough enough without having to identify the exact number of points on both sides. As a consequence, there will be many more mistaken kills because the bucks could either be too small OR too big. In any case, I'll pose the various scenerios in an email to our new DWR Chief of Law Enforcement and see what he says about any changes to the department that would likely be made and then I'll get back to you.

Meanwhile, let me remind you that if you don't like the status quo as you put it, you can always get together with your friends in some napkin meetings, in the RAC meetings, and in the Wildlife Board meetings and make your case with them. You're an SFW member, so get them to support whatever changes you think need to be made to make things "better" for your style of hunting. But don't expect everyone else to agree with you. I, for one, see the numbers and they tell me that the "status quo" is working just fine for my style of hunting and I'll do what I can to keep it. The buck to doe ratios and population and tag numbers on the vast majority the general units are up (and rising), while the LE and Premium LE unit numbers are stagnant or dropping.

If you really think your tactics work, why don't you push them on the 5 general units that are having a hard time keeping up with the rest, namely Nebo, Fillmore, Mt Dutton, SW Desert and your beloved Monroe. And while you're at it, see what you can do to stop the sliding trophy buck numbers on Pauns, Henries and Book Cliffs and the sliding tag numbers on Vernon. Show us you can fix those things and we'll listen.

And if you think that the "status quo" is for the faint of heart, you have a lot to learn about me and mine!

Footnote: If any of you readers are interested in getting the numbers on your favorite unit, you can look on pages 6, 7 and 17 of the Packet for the April 2016 Wildlife Board meeting.

Edited: Status Quo? No such thing! Changes are made every year.
2004 - 15% tags to youth (now 20%)
2006 - 5 day any weapon hunt in So and SE regions (lasted 2 years)
2007 - 2000 buck/bull combo tags- AR301 (lasted 5 years)
2008 - Hunting lioense required to get tags
2009 - 9-day any weapon hunting returned statewide, Archers choose a region for first half of hunt, statewide second half.
2010 - 5-day any weapon hunt statewide except 3-day hunt Cache, Oquirrh, Ogden, Monroe, Vernal. Loss of points for not applying for 3 consecutive years.
2011 - 9-day any weapon hunt statewide returned again except 5-day on Oquirrh, Vernal, Boulder, Kaiparowits, Monroe.
2012 - Hunt 30 units. Loss of statewide archery. Smaller group applications from 10 hunters to 4. AR301 ending.
2013 - $5 predator control fee. Additional OTC youth archery hunts.
2014 - Mentoring Program. Crossbows, drawlocks, magnification muzzy scopes.
2015 - Trial Program. Multi-season deer hunts. LE can hunt Extended.
2016 - 6 new LE muzzy hunts on Gen units. Extended archery on Cache unit. Rangefinders on bows.

Additionally, there have been numerous changes in hunt dates and sequences, hunter age requirements, and equipment requirements. Something's always changing every year.
 
To OP, Bikes,

While your proposal is in the right spirit, it just doesn't work that way and, in fact, isn't needed.

First, the promised permits never materialize. The current general unit numbers show that we have 10,489 surplus bucks and 12,891 surplus does per the DWR classifications and the buck to doe ratios. And while many of those deer are on units with limited access per CWMU's, private property, inaccessible public property, etc., there are nowhere near the number of new buck tags issued that could/should be issued, (4,400 new tags = 1,760 more dead bucks) and only 30 new doe tags for a grand total of 755 doe tags (755 tags = 610 dead does). Furthermore, even the Limited Entry tags never materialize in the numbers they should. "It's too soon to be sure.", "We don't believe the DWR numbers", "The buck to doe ratio objectives are too low." are some of the excuses we hear from the public as reasons we shouldn't issue any more tags. And as a consequence of the outcry, the DWR shies away from doing what is biologically sound management.

Which gets us to the second problem (and solution). The DWR needs to get some "groomba" as the Nausicans on StarTrek call it and get on with the program as designed. And the best current solution overall for everyone is found in the 5 year Management Plan.
 
Lee, good stuff to think about, but... When you start talking about "biologically sound management" it really only applies to what are the danger points eg. less than 5 bucks/100 does or more than 60 bucks/100 does. Everything in between is based on social wants/needs. so the deer management plan is based on a compromise of all the groups concerned. It is not a definitive, absolute plan that is the ideal scenario for any one group or for the resource itself based on perfect biological model. (which really doesn't exist in nature)
 
>Lee, good stuff to think about,
>but... When you start talking
>about "biologically sound management" it
>really only applies to what
>are the danger points
>eg. less than 5 bucks/100
>does or more than 60
>bucks/100 does. Everything in between
>is based on social wants/needs.
>so the deer management plan
>is based on a compromise
>of all the groups concerned.
>It is not a definitive,
>absolute plan that is the
>ideal scenario for any one
>group or for the resource
>itself based on perfect biological
>model. (which really doesn't exist
>in nature)

I apologize, but I see I should have used the term "scientifically sound management". It would have better made my point. Sorry for the misunderstanding. However, let me point out that biology is the study of living THINGS, all kinds of THINGS. It isn't just the study of deer buck to doe ratios as you've indicated. And the mule deer plan covers a lot more than that.

Biologically, it covers habitat, predators, disease, competition between species, populations/capacities, winter feeding, translocations and migration well as buck to doe ratios.

Scientifically, it covers water distribution and weather/climate.

Socially, it covers the effects of energy development, deer-vehicle collisions, hunter access, depredation, private land, poaching and of course viewing and hunting.

We thoroughly went through all this stuff, but the only thing that seems to come out is opportunity hunting vs trophy hunting! And that seems to be the only thing the public cares about and the only thing that we screwed up on.

(I'll have to get back to this later. My family's making me join them at the Cornfest in Enterprise even though I still haven't harvested my two cow elk or my doe deer. They've got their priorities screwed up!)
 
The Big Bucks of TARDville are not coming back!

Took Me 40 Years to Figure this out!

They Shot the Genetics/Deer Completely out on Several Units/Regions & had to Close them for Rebound!

Ya!

On Rare occasion there are a Few Big Bucks Taken from Various parts of the State each year!

The Banner Days are NOT coming back!

If an Average TARD Hunter happen to see a 40" Buck you'd here Stories of a 50"er!

Now Days a PISSCUTTER 20"er is a Trophy!

GEEZUS!

I Seen the Antler Restrictions Tried in the Book Cliffs & it Failed!

Without a BIG Fine to go with the Restrictions it'll never work in TARDville!
















[font color="blue"]dude has his Resume turned in to be Hillary's
Intern[/font]
 
>
>
>​There seems to be much concern
>about recruiting new hunters and
>keeping current ones yet
>Utah discourages hunting by making
>deer hunters wait a year
>or two between hunts. Hunters
>should be able to hunt
>bucks every year such that
>they can freely plan the
>annual buck hunt with friends
>and family. You make them
>sit out a year or
>two and many will just
>lose the habit and sit
>out permanently. Hard to recruit
>new hunters under this system.
>Employing antler restrictions of at
>least three points on a
>side will allow everyone to
>hunt every year with out
>damage to the breeding buck
>herd. Instead of killing mostly
>small yearling bucks, those will
>become the primary breeders. The
>first year of antler restrictions
>will result in a very
>low buck kill as most
>of the yearlings will be
>spared but the second year
>kill will rise considerably. The
>range will have to carry
>more bucks but we are
>well under population objectives and
>can support more bucks. We
>are smart hunters and will
>have little trouble adjusting to
>antler restrictions. We already have
>buck antler restrictions in the
>management 3 point tags in
>the trophy buck areas.
>We have long had elk
>antler restrictions in the spike
>hunts where you can search
>out a legal 6 by
>3 spike or simply take
>one that does not have
>an additional point on one
>side..
>
>The trade off is that we
>will establish an annual deer
>hunt for everyone at the
>expense of a smaller deer
>kill. The older bucks will
>be tougher hunt than the
>little and less wary yearlings
>that now comprise the bulk
>of the buck kill. These
>yearlings have spent most of
>their short lives hanging with
>unhunted and unwary does. Another
>downside will be more pressure
>on mature bucks and some
>mistaken kills of younger bucks
>but far less than the
>younger bucks taken now. I
>think many hunters would trade
>an annual hunt but take
>home fewer but bigger bucks.
>Yearlings grow a lot bigger
>into their second year.
>
>There is precedence, Pennsylvania had a
>grand tradition of an annual
>buck hunt for all -usually
>around a million hunters in
>an area half the size
>of Utah. The kill rate
>was low-under 10% and almost
>exclusively yearlings. The key was
>the annual tradition not the
>kill rate. About ten years
>ago, they went to antler
>restrictions of 3 points to
>a side and in some
>areas 4 points. The grand
>hunting tradition continued-you can count
>on hunting every year with
>the bonus of bigger bucks
>than before.
>
>This is a no brainer WIN
>WIN WIN that has no
>real downside.​

I Would love to see antler restrictions at least in a few areas
(Pinevalley) the fawnfarm.


Utard mentality...It won't work!

I am poor! only kill for the meat..

They tried that once!
complete failure.

I understand you're all muledeer biologist experts.
Come on! pull your heads out of your bums..The guy is 100% right!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-11-16 AT 09:39PM (MST)[p]After scouting and hunting deer and elk with my Wyo. resident son for several weekends, and returning to Utah for the general elk hunt last weekend, I was thinking about how great Wyoming still is and how Utah has managed to take all the fun out of it.

Like Utah used to be, Wyoming residents can hunt archery and rifle seasons for deer and elk, and hunt the entire state (except the limited entry units, of course).

In Utah, you get to pick your weapon and pick your ridge to hunt on and that is the size of it. Half the fun used to be trying some new areas each year and hunting with multiple weapons.

Nobody like hunting Utah anymore except people that go for the party/reunion, and not the hunting.
 
Bikes- I think your implication with this post is that with antler restrictions, harvest rates would go down, and then the DWR would raise the tag numbers across general season units in order to maintain buck to doe ratios..??

If that is not your implication, I'm not sure how antler restrictions would increase tag numbers such that everyone could hunt every year.

The first way to start increasing hunter opportunity every year is to start limiting people to applying to only one deer tag pool, either Limited Entry, OR General Season; NOT BOTH. After several years of doing that, point creeps would go down, and participation in general units would go up. Same number of tags, but people choose if they want to hunt more (general season areas), or for larger, more mature deer (LE). That's where it needs to start.

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
I think point restrictions may have a place in some units, especially if that is what hunter's want. There could also be exceptions for youth.

However, I don't think point restrictions justify more tag numbers. I agree with browaningrage that other things can be done to diversify hunting opportunity in an equitable way. Moreover, hunter numbers do need to be managed, that is one of the most basic functions of game laws, conservation, and management. There is no constitutional guarantee that everyone gets deer tag every year.
 
If people hunt hard enough regardless of the unit they are hunting, they should be able to kill a mature deer if that's what they want. Granted it may not be a 24" 4 point but something over 18" I consider a mature general season deer regardless of how many points it has.
 
BrowningRage, Yes, hunter success would decrease allowing buck herd build up allowing the issuance of many more tags. Success rates on 2.5 and + year old bucks will be much lower than on 1.5 year olds that tend to act like the half tame, non-hunted does they have been living with since birth.
 
>>
>>
>>​There seems to be much concern
>>about recruiting new hunters and
>>keeping current ones yet
>>Utah discourages hunting by making
>>deer hunters wait a year
>>or two between hunts. Hunters
>>should be able to hunt
>>bucks every year such that
>>they can freely plan the
>>annual buck hunt with friends
>>and family. You make them
>>sit out a year or
>>two and many will just
>>lose the habit and sit
>>out permanently. Hard to recruit
>>new hunters under this system.
>>Employing antler restrictions of at
>>least three points on a
>>side will allow everyone to
>>hunt every year with out
>>damage to the breeding buck
>>herd. Instead of killing mostly
>>small yearling bucks, those will
>>become the primary breeders. The
>>first year of antler restrictions
>>will result in a very
>>low buck kill as most
>>of the yearlings will be
>>spared but the second year
>>kill will rise considerably. The
>>range will have to carry
>>more bucks but we are
>>well under population objectives and
>>can support more bucks. We
>>are smart hunters and will
>>have little trouble adjusting to
>>antler restrictions. We already have
>>buck antler restrictions in the
>>management 3 point tags in
>>the trophy buck areas.
>>We have long had elk
>>antler restrictions in the spike
>>hunts where you can search
>>out a legal 6 by
>>3 spike or simply take
>>one that does not have
>>an additional point on one
>>side..
>>
>>The trade off is that we
>>will establish an annual deer
>>hunt for everyone at the
>>expense of a smaller deer
>>kill. The older bucks will
>>be tougher hunt than the
>>little and less wary yearlings
>>that now comprise the bulk
>>of the buck kill. These
>>yearlings have spent most of
>>their short lives hanging with
>>unhunted and unwary does. Another
>>downside will be more pressure
>>on mature bucks and some
>>mistaken kills of younger bucks
>>but far less than the
>>younger bucks taken now. I
>>think many hunters would trade
>>an annual hunt but take
>>home fewer but bigger bucks.
>>Yearlings grow a lot bigger
>>into their second year.
>>
>>There is precedence, Pennsylvania had a
>>grand tradition of an annual
>>buck hunt for all -usually
>>around a million hunters in
>>an area half the size
>>of Utah. The kill rate
>>was low-under 10% and almost
>>exclusively yearlings. The key was
>>the annual tradition not the
>>kill rate. About ten years
>>ago, they went to antler
>>restrictions of 3 points to
>>a side and in some
>>areas 4 points. The grand
>>hunting tradition continued-you can count
>>on hunting every year with
>>the bonus of bigger bucks
>>than before.
>>
>>This is a no brainer WIN
>>WIN WIN that has no
>>real downside.​
>
> I Would love to see
>antler restrictions at least in
>a few areas
>(Pinevalley) the fawnfarm.
>
>
>Utard mentality...It won't work!
>
>I am poor! only kill for
>the meat..
>
>They tried that once!
>complete failure.
>
>I understand you're all muledeer biologist
>experts.
>Come on! pull your heads out
>of your bums..The guy is
>100% right!

You make it sound like us "Utards" (typical hunters) tried it and shut it down (more than once, by the way), but it was ultimately the Wildlife Board that shut it down. And that's because this isn't just a biological issue. Every proposal has to go through and meet a pentagon of DWR criteria (biological, legal, financial, technological/workable, and social.) and if the proposal doesn't meet that criteria it is not recommended to the Wildlife Board. Of course the Wildlife Board can (and sometimes, does) overrule the recommendation, but if the new ruling doesn't meet the objectives stated or causes more problems than it solves it's usually later reversed. That's what has happened to this issue. And Utah isn't the only state that has tried and abandoned it. You can spin it however you want to spin it, but it is an attempt to create more trophy hunting/hunters at the expense of more opportunities to harvest a deer.

I'm curious as to why you specifically targeted the Pine Valley Unit? Care to elaborate?
 
It all boils down to how much revenue.. little to do with herd management and nothing of genetic management.save your breath.

Pinevalley unit has areas with amazing muledeer habitat.
With antler and genetic management it could produce more quality bucks.
Last few years the quality has dropped significantly. So many
24"+ 2 point mature bucks.
There is still a few nice 4x4 and 5x5, But the genetics are getting watered down More and more.
 
Myself I dont mind sitting out a year to hunt quality bucks. I can fish look for sheds go camping with my wife or tag along with a buddy who has a tag. I've shot some good bucks with my bow and a couple little ones. Shoot whatever makes you happy. This new rule where if you don't punch your LE tag you can hunt the extended does bother me alot though.
 
The problem with all of this is everyone wants there piece of the pie when there's only so much pie to go around. What I seen last year was a lot of younger bucks and that was a good sign but they issued more tags for said unit.... not good. While hunting this unit there was no in between bucks like 22 to 24 inches we did see a couple of nice bucks 27 to 28 inches. Since I can't age a deer while there alive I have to go by something and antler size was it. Now it could be this unit produces small bucks 18 inches or less that after so many years just miss the middle ground wise 22 to 24 and jump right up to the top... larger class 26 to 28 inch. I don't think so... my suggestion would to have average age group antler size in the herd and that would allow everyone to pursue what ever there hunting hart's desired. I dont think Doe hunts work unless the herd is over objective for their range. According to a whitetail deer film under a controlled program. The whitetail deer a doe passes on more to antler growth size than the buck does and since we are hunting wild deer there's no way to control what size a buck inherits. Just my two cents.
 
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