What do you think?

[Jake_Sorensen]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-03 AT 10:20AM (MST)[p]My dad told me about someone he knows that was archery hunting this year up above Midway, Utah (I think) and he shot a nice 6 point bull just before dark, so he shot it and started tracking it but eventually lost the blood trail, then went up the next morning and couldn't find it so he just started hunting again so 1 or 2 days later he shot a big 5 point bull and he was able to find this one so as they were hauling it out the could smell something dead so they followed the scent and found the 6 point he shot, now here is the what would you do and what do you think is the right thing to do is these people are not meat hunters they are strictly trophy they give the meat away cause they just want the antlers, the meat on the 6 point was obviously bad they cut off the head and took it with them but what would you do? As I thought of this I found myself questioning what I would do its kinda hard to say? personally to me I question how hard they searched for it cause I know the area where he shot it and the area were they found it but I don't know, what would yall do?

Jake

 

[Slu]

If I knew that I did everything in my power to find the bull and still could not find him, I would have no problem taking another. Finding the bull a few days later would leave me sick, but I to would take out the horns. Slu

 

[Tuffbucker]

So did he take both sets of horns??? If so, I would call fish and game...thats what I'd do. To me it doesnt sound like he searched to hard for the first bull.....its sad to see such a magnificent animal go to waste!!!

 

[IDhornhound]

I probably wouldn't of lost the first bull. I fatally wounded a 300 class bull a few seasns ago. I spent a full three days looking for him, even though I knew that I'ld already lost the meat.When I did finally find him I considered myself done for the season. I think tracking skills are as much or mre important than shooting skills if you are a bowhunter. I've eaten way more elkmeat do to good tracking after the shot than I have from being a good shot. Unfortunately, as unethical as it is to stop looking so soon, Your freind didn't break any laws by doing so."every reasonable effort" to reduce to possession is in the eye of the hunter. I guess its a matter of consience.

 

[azelk]

The animal really dosen't go to waste. All the other critters take there fair share. Now if he did do his best to find the bull then I dont think there is any problem with that. The only thing he could of done better was spend a little more time searching.

 

[c3]

I believe in the addage that if you hit him in the body cavity, it is dead. That is your elk for the year. You better find it or you go without.

This is my personal view point and not a condemnation of the other hunter. I actually wounded a small rag horn this year in the lower back leg. After tracking 8 hours I watched it walk off with another 6x6 bull that afternoon. It appeared to be realively unhurt and I continued to hunt this year.

So there, you can see that my ethics are pretty muddy too

Cheers,
Pete

 

[RuttCrazed]

Unless he had a second tag in his pocket when he decided to take the 6X6's head he deserves the visit that the F&G should be paying him.

Rut

 

[predator]

You cannot possess the horns of any antlered game that are naturally attached to the skull, unless they have been legally taken. He didn't take the 6, therefore he possesses the antlers illegally. IF that's the way we're gonna play the game, then hell, I'll just go shoot some biggun poorly, let it run off and die. Then I'll shoot a smaller bull and take both sets of antlers. That is what poachers do every single year!! I can understand not being able to track, I've had it happen to me before. I tagged out, as my ethics dictate.

Do you not think the next hunter finding that carcass is going to look at it as a poach and call the fish and game???

It all comes back to the age-old problem on the AR301 and Extended areas- ETHICS V. GREED.

 

[Cass]

If I had an elk tag I wouldn't stop searching until I found the bull. I'd go to town, get help. Obviously if you couldn't find it w/i a couple days, which I know happens, I'd still tag the head and take it home. I mean the rest of the animal is useless, Just take the head home. I my self am a meat hunter when it comes to deer, But I my self won't shoot anything less that a trophy. I don't like the feeling I get when I shoot a small buck. It's just not in me. I pay my share for the tag and if I come up empty handed then owe well.
But If I had shot that 6pnt I would have marked where the Blood last was, and then fan out in a 100 yard circle, Going about 3-4 yards out every time. Fan the whole area.
Wasn't there any tracks or anything? Normally if an animal is wounded he will leave heavy tracks from my experience.


-Cass

 

[SneakAttack]

You know damn well if someone found it in the spring, it would have been called a 'winter kill' or lion kill. Then who knows, it might have even showed up on MM under the title "Awesome find"

 

[c3]

There's a 370 something bull at the shop next to me "found" this same way in Wyoming a few years back. It was never tagged. I believe it is technically illegal to have it here in Utah.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[polarbear]

Predator is right on the money! In this state it is illegal to possess untagged antlers in the field. The only way that that guy could legally possess both sets is if someone else with a valid tag tags it and hauls it out or if it is retrieved after obvious decomposition. We found a pretty nice bull that was gut shot with the arrow still in it. It had probably been dead since early season (at least 6 or 7 weeks). We marked on our map where it was and picked it up later in the winter. Nice and legal.
It sounds to me like those guys didnt feel like making a good hard look for the first bull. I hate that kind of lazy a$$ sh!t!
Eric

Life long "vagitarian"

 

[HGHCOUNTRY]

I guess you have to question how hard the person really looked for the animal. Last year I shot at a big muley mid afternoon. I was sure I hit him, I was only 75 yards away when I shot. I looked and looked for almost 2 days. I saw him later in the week and he was chasin does without a care in the world. I ended up harvesting a different buck. I still dont know if I hit him. He was real easy to identify with a real unique cheater of his left side. So I guess my point is it all depends on the situation. It would be hard for me not to take the rack from both of them. I dont know that that makes some one a poacher..

-Hghcountry

 

[IdahoBugler]

It all comes down to ethics. I stuck and lost a bull two years ago and even before I started tracking I notched my tag. I felt obligated to that animal and I gave it all I had to try and find him. Which in the long run didn't turn out favorably. I just would'nt feel right shooting another animal. But that is just me and everyone has their own ethics. Mine is just not the same as his was.

IB

 

[2_Point]

I would call the Fish and Game and turn in the Poacher so I might receive the POACHING PERMIT. Yes Jake, you MAY be able to get a FREE PERMIT TO HUNT ELK ON THE WASATCH if you TURN THEM IN. (And they won't even know you did it)

AZ's comment that the animal doesn't go to waste is just a way for him to rationalize his POOR actions. If you can't hit them right because of your error and you choose to shoot and wound then in my opinion that was you animal and you shouldn't shoot more.

 

[BrianID]

Sad situation, but things like this will happen. We don't know the whole story though. This guy may have thought he missed or just grazzed the 6pt but still spent a day or two searching for it just to make sure. Even if that where the situation this guy still made a few bad choices. He broke the law by taking the second set of horns out of the hills. Why would he tell people about it. An getting two sets of antlers with one tag isn't something to brag about.

 

[Elkmaster]

polarbear was dead wrong. By waiting a couple moths then going back to get the horns does not change anything, they still knew it was a 'hunt kill'. The proper thing to do is to notify fish and game of the dead bull. Other than killing and tagging an elk, the only other way to take head/antlers out of the wild is if they are sheds or the animal has died of natural causes, if the cause of death CANNOT be determined presumption goes to natural causes and it is legal to take them. polarbear KNEW that this bull did not die of natural causes so it was illegal to take them regardless of how many months he waited.

The original question was if a person loses a wounded animal, can he hunt and tag another,,,yes. If he later finds the first animal, he is obligated to inform fish and game. The Warden may determine it a 'crap-happens' incident and let him keep the 1st head. If the Warden finds the hunter negligent, he can site the hunter with wanton waist. But it must be the Warden that controls the taking of 'kills'.

 

[Tuffbucker]

As far as I know, it is illegal in Utah to possess ANY horns that are still attached to the head...that arent properly tagged...even if it is a winter kill....a friend of mine found a nice 5x5 a few years back and notified the F&G....after determining it was a lion kill, they opted to give my friend the rack.....they dont always do that, but I have heard of others who have had the same luck as well.....

In the scenario above, what the hunter did was illegal(if he didnt have a second tag)...as for ethics.....thats a whole can of worms I dont want to open. Each hunter has his own set of ethics...and each hunter has to live with his decisions.....if I hit a general season buck and couldn't find it, I'd be done. If i was on an LE elk hunt and I hit a bull and couldn't find him after a DILLEGENT search, then I would have to wrestle with myself over whether or not to keep hunting.....I guess we all have a little hipocrasy in our ethics!!

 

[Jake_Sorensen]

It is a hard situation, but I do agree it was poaching, I'm not sure exactly who it was I have a pretty good idea from what my dad told me, but if it is who I think it was maybe one of his boys might have tagged it at the end of the hunt with his tag if he didn't get his elk if he even did buy a tag, but I kinda doubt it and even if he did I'm sure he waited tell the end of the hunt to make sure he didn't get anything. The same S.O.B's were invited to come elk hunting with us by my uncle luckly they didn't come cause I know they would have brought their guns when all of them bow hunted to, they have done this for years with elk and deer, one year one of this guys boys shot 2 or 3 deer during the rifle hunt(luckily I wasen't there when he shot the deer) and 1 during the bow which we found its body during the rifle hunt with his arrow in it, when all he had was archery tag, it pissed me off so freakin bad. I used to hate hunting with these guys because none of them ever had a tag but they were always the ones shooting at all the deer, luckily we don't hunt with them, I would love nothing more than to turn them in and get that wasatch tag but I think my dad, uncle and everyone else would know it was me when I was like sorry guys I'm hunting up in the Wasatch unit this year, then I would have major family probs. Its hard to say. But I do know I HATE these guys!

 

[Elkmaster]

What you folks are failing to realize is the hunting license and the tag are for the 'harvesting' of game animals for the purpose of consuming. I've heard several say that the hunter should tag an animal even if he finds it dead and spoiled. That is not true, especially if that hunter had nothing to do with the kill. Many have said 'tag the head and you are done'. A game warden CANNOT force you to tag an animal that has been dead for days and is spoiled. He can site you for being negligent and wanton waist,,he can even take your tag because of it. But he cannot force you to tag it. And by know means does tagging a head make it legal to possess. Some states are different,,in Montana, you can pick up any head or antler that was a result of natural shedding or death. The execption being big-horned sheep,,you cannot pick up ANY bighorn sheep head for any reason,,I believe all rocky states are the same.
If a hunter hits an animal and all reasonable attempts are made to recover it,,well,,thats goes with the territory of hunting and he may continue to hunt and fill his tag. Ethics would say that if that animal IS recovered later,,even tho spoiled, the hunter 'should' forfeit his tag!

 

[Pappabull]

A similar incident with elk just happened here in Idaho. The gent was fined $1500 and license suspended for one year. The judge declared that that was the minimum fine he could give him.

 

[ktc]

Turn 'em in. If you don't want to tell me the names and I will. Poaching rewards in Utah are pretty valuable not to mention justice will be served.

 

[mooseman]

hey jake sounds like they are the kind of hunters that give hunters a bad name, as far as i understood the utah proclamation, it is illegal to possess any antlers that have not been shed naturally.

 

[huntin_fool]

Elkmaster,
Not all the rocky mountain states are the same. I picked up a big horn sheep head I found while elk hunting in wyoming. I just had to take the head into the game and fish within 10 days and show them where I found it and they put a plug in the horns and let me take it home.
Polarbear,
I don't think waiting for it to decompose and then take necessarly makes it legal. That makes it sound like I could go out shoot a huge bull and let it lie till it decompeses and then go get it and it would be legal, that's poachig no matter what way you look at it.
As far as what I would do, I'm not sure, that would be tough and I hope I never have to make that choice. But if I felt like I honestly looked as hard as I could, then I made my best effort. But I wouldn't take out both sets, because I didn't take the whole animal into consumption. It was my falt for makeing a bad shot and not being able to find the animal in the first place so I deff don't deserve to have the other set of horns. I feel the guy should have taken the 5x5 and left the other he doesn't deserve. Then he can sit at home all year and think about what he can do better next to be able to take home that bigger elk and the 5x5 can be a reminder at what was done wrong to avoid the same mistakes in the future and hopefully make them a better hunter.
-Whit

 

[huntin_fool]

Elkmaster,
Not all the rocky mountain states are the same. I picked up a big horn sheep head I found while elk hunting in wyoming. I just had to take the head into the game and fish within 10 days and show them where I found it and they put a plug in the horns and let me take it home.
Polarbear,
I don't think waiting for it to decompose and then take necessarly makes it legal. That makes it sound like I could go out shoot a huge bull and let it lie till it decompeses and then go get it and it would be legal, that's poachig no matter what way you look at it.
As far as what I would do, I'm not sure, that would be tough and I hope I never have to make that choice. But if I felt like I honestly looked as hard as I could, then I made my best effort. But I wouldn't take out both sets, because I didn't take the whole animal into consumption. It was my falt for makeing a bad shot and not being able to find the animal in the first place so I deff don't deserve to have the other set of horns. I feel the guy should have taken the 5x5 and left the other he doesn't deserve. Then he can sit at home all year and think about what he can do better next to be able to take home that bigger elk and the 5x5 can be a reminder at what was done wrong to avoid the same mistakes in the future and hopefully make them a better hunter.
-Whit

 

[RuttCrazed]

Elkmaster,
You are right, he doesn't need to tag the 6X6, that is unless he plans to take the head! In Utah you can not legally posses the antlers unless they are shed or you tagged them, if he used his tag on the 5X5 then he must leave the 6X6.

Rut

 

[Jake_Sorensen]

well I found out this weekend that it was who I thought it was, but like I figured his son just put his tag on it at the end of the hunt even cause he didn't get anything.

Jake

 

[fisrtcoueswas80inches]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-03 AT 12:17PM (MST)[p]i usually dont get like this but c3, i feel i have to rip you a new one. that is the most disusting thing that i have ever heard you wounded him AND you found him but it seemed to you that he was ok so you didnt finish him off? that makes me sick! you tracked him for 8 hours and then when u found him you didnt shoot? that is disgusting! you damn well that if it was a huge bull you would have finished the job off and because it was only a raghorn you felt it ok not to finish him off because he seemed to be ok thats such B.S. you do not have the right to call yourself a hunter you are a waste
casey
you make me sick!

 

[1BigDeer]

How does someone give game meat to someone else in UT? In MT the tag stays with the meat. ND has a separate carcass tag and antler tag. It seems by keeping the tag with the antlers, the meat isn't as important, and therefore more easily poached, etc? It was said earlier, but I agreee, the tag is for harvest and consumption. The trophy rack is the bonus. By the way, there sure are a lot of quick-to-judge folks here...

Dave

 

[Jake_Sorensen]

Thats what I thought to but I asked my dad what are they going to do if they get questioned about the 6 point and he said they asked him the same thing and they just said they are just going to say that his son tagged it and they found it a couple days later and the meat was bad so the just left the carcas. Me and my dad agree that it was messed up of them to do but either way I guess the bull was dead, It would have been nice to turn them in and get the rewards and most of all to get them busted, if we they ever hunt with us again and they don't have tags which they won't have the right tags cause they get their tags for the bow hunt and we do rifle, I'm going to do everything I can to get them busted, whether there is a reward or not.

Jake

 

[Jake_Sorensen]

Oh ya does anyone know if anything will happen to those in the hunting party that have valid licenses if some people in the party don't have tags and are hunting.

Jake

 

[pasowoman]

Hard to say without knowing more details. Certainly you need to make every effort to find the critter. Hopefully enlisting a friends help, using a GPS to get back to the exact spot you stopped, and walking a grid pattern to try and find it. Another tip which may help in some cases is taking in a spray bottle full of hydrogen peroxide. It will foam up when sprayed on the blood. Sometimes it may be hard to tell whether a small red spot is blood or not.