Quality versus Quantity

kchamp · Jan 25, 2004

I hope I'm not about to start a fight, but here goes. Is it better to manage one way or the other, or would it be better to have some areas with herds managed for each? I haven't hunted elk yet, but will be in Colorado this October. I can understand the argument for either side. If we go for trophy only, then how many of you will get left out of the hunting experience? Bigger usually translates into more expensive, which is why so many hunters have quit. Some states have gone so far toward the trophy end that very few people get to experience it. I can also see that areas need to be managed properly to have the right age structure to sustain the overall herd. I think one of the main problems is todays hunters mentality that the only way to enjoy the hunt is to kill the most game. Here in Alabama we have opened doe season for the entire gun deer season, which is about 70 days. So now, after three years of open season, we are not seeing any deer at all, except on very restricted property. The result has been that more average Joes have put their guns up for good. I think there needs to be a balance of the two, or else only the elite will have any hunting opportunities. Let the firing now commence. kchamp

Packout · Jan 25, 2004

The great debate. Doesn't matter if it is mule deer or elk.

I tend to believe that as quality increases, so do the expectations of hunters. I will use my home state of Utah for example. 5-8 years ago, if someone shot a 350 class bull in Utah on one of the LTD entry units it was a big deal. Now it has to 370"+ or 400" on some units to get recognized. Utah's system is so strict when it comes to handing out tags that half of the applicants will never draw an elk tag in their lifetime. We manage our elk herds for guaranteed trophy size success. Personally, I'd rather see Utah manage for average 4 year old bulls because there is always the chance to find a big brute, which would make him that much more special. Many bulls die of old age on Utah's LTD units because they never were or will be "Big Enough". Utah's general rifle hunts for any bull have a high OTC permit cap, but there are good elk in those any bull units.

The herd is healthy as long as the female population gets bred. Elk are easy to manage because we can kill the male portion after the females are bred. Cow hunting is a whole different subject.

kilowatt · Jan 25, 2004

This not on the same subject, but a old fellow I use to work with had a comment he would always use concerning WINE. It's not the quality but the QUANTITY THAT COUNTS. He would buy whatever he could fine the cheapest. His idea of good wine is .99 cents for a fifth of "red goofy".

bobcatbess · Jan 25, 2004

Packout

IF YOU WANT TO HUNT HUNT 4 YEAR OLD BULLS,JUST KEEP DOING THE GENERAL BULL HUNT!!!

LET'S SAVE A FEW AREA'S FOR THE BIG BULLS TO GROW TO A MATURE AGE!!!

PLEASE DON'T INFORM THE DWR THERE ARE BULLS DIEING OF OLD AGE!!!

I'LL GUARANTEE YOU THIS,IF THEY(DWR) START MANAGING AREAS FOR 4 YEAR OLD BULL'S,YOU CAN KISS THE AREA GOODBYE,THE BIG BULLS WOULD BE DECIMATED WITHIN TWO YEARS,AND THEN YOU'VE GOT AN AREA AS GOOD AS AN OPEN GENERAL AREA!!!

IF I NEVER DRAW SO BE IT BUT AT LEAST WHO EVER IS LUCKY ENOUGH TO DRAW IS GONNA HAVE A CHANCE AT A NICE BULL!!!

THIS L.E. ELK PERMIT IS BASICALLY A 'MAYBE ONCE IN A LIFETIME HUNT'!!!(YA,SOMEBODY MIGHT GET MORE THAN ONE,BUT IT'S NOT LOOKING THAT WAY FOR ME!!!)

IF THE COW KILLIN KEEPS GOING,YOUR GONNA SEE A PISS POOR HERD IN SEVERAL AREAS,YA,IT'S A DIFFERENT SUBJECT BUT LETS NOT BE QUICK TO FORGET WHATS HAPPENING!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THATS NOT IMPRESSED WITH 4 YEAR AVERAGE BULLS IN GENERAL AREA'S!!!

polarbear · Jan 25, 2004

Here in Washington, the antler restrictions for elk and mulies have led to an increase of better animals. 10 years ago we would have to work our a$$es off to get a decent 4x4 or 5x5 bull. Now, due to the availability of bigger animals, we can afford to be a little more picky. I have said this before, but this year we were into big bulls every day. One day we spotted 21 bulls. 16 of them were 5 point or better. Just a few yers ago it was almost unheard of to run into that many nice bulls at one time unless you were at a game dept. feeding station.
The same is happening (at least where we hunt) for mule deer. We are seeing more good quality bucks and more deer over all than we have in a long time. The 3 point or better restrictions seem to be doing the job. I wish that the WDFW would put a state wide 3 pt or better restriction on all 3 species of deer and drop the number of doe tags issued.
Our youth hunts need to be totally re-done. It has turned out to be a shoot anything that moves season. Not only does it encourage lazy hunting but knocks the crap out of the deer population. You dont make better hunters out of kids by giving them a free-for-all hunt. Someone that actually has to work a little bit for their critter will have a greater respect for the
sport and the animal.
Alright, enough of my crap. I'm ready to be hit between the eyes.
Eric

kchamp · Jan 26, 2004

Guys,
I guess what I was trying to say with my original post was, if we work just for the trophy area, how many of us will not get to experience the joys of hunting at all. How many kids are willing to wait 10 to 15 years to get to go hunt with Dad. I know here in Alabama, my two sons will never be able to enjoy hunting as I did growing up. Land leases are outrageous, clubs are full of slobs and arrogant jerks, and the only hunting is over a feed patch in a shooting house. Boring!!! No room to roam, no small game hunting while others are deer hunting. The result is fewer and fewer kids growing up hunting and enjoying the great outdoors. The almighty dollar pushes the little guy out of the sport he loves. I'm sure you guys see plenty of todays hunters out west, the kind that has plenty of money to spend, but little or no experience at hunting. While the guy that has hunted all his life, respected the land and the rules of nature, gets pushed aside and puts his gun up for good. Look no further than the prices for a trophy elk on a so called elk preserve hunt. Some of them go for over 10,000 dollars. This will eventually get the sport where only the elite will be able to afford to hunt anything. I have a friend that has bowhunted whitetails in Kansas for about 10 yrs. They got tags every year for the whole group no problem. But for the past 2 yrs., no tags. Outfitters were getting more and more tags and they got pushed out. They had become good friends with all the farmers in the area that had held out from leasing out to the outfitters. His grandson was just getting ready to join him, and may never get the chance. Seems like if more states held out a few areas for the average guy, the trophy areas might receive a little less pressure, and more of us could enjoy the sport we love while we still can. kchamp

springbear · Jan 26, 2004

Kchamp, I think I understand your point and I tend to agree with your basic idea. (that people that want to hunt public animals, should be able to). However, you ceartainly use some funny logic to back your point. In my opinion, a 10,000 dollar elk hunt on a preserve is not going to affect my elk hunting anytime soon. the majority of people see those operations as jokes. Now you might have been refering to the privet ranches of the south west or other trophy areas. Those are not preserves, they are privte property and the owners have the right to do as they please on them. If their actions promote big bull elk and the high dollars that follow then so be it. The public lands in these states is a different story and are basicly free to hunt.
Such as happened to you friends in Kansas. You blame the outfitters? You mean to tell me that the evil outfitters snuck in to Kansas and stole the deer tags??? and then forced at gun point the farmers to lease their hutning rights? even in states that have tags that only outfitted hunters can purchase, the numbers are proportional to the total number of tags.
Outfiters are nothing more then a service and driven soley by demand. They also tend to be regulated very heavily by state fisha nd game agencies. As you can tell I am more then likely affiliated with the outfitteing business.
In my state of Idaho we have areas managed for both trophy hunts and areas that you can go hunt every year. I lkie that system and it seems fair to me.
I thought that alabama had like a million deer in it?

Martin · Jan 27, 2004

I don't think we need to get too right or too left on this subject. It shouldn't come down to an either or decision. Most states manage for the general public to have a hunting opportunity as well as create LE or Draw units to offer a trophy or mature bull hunt. I like having choices and my choices are always changing. I have yet to draw a quality buck hunt in Idaho, yet I know where a good number of mature bucks call home. To me this is part of the game besides the killing. Quantity is quality to me; keep a good healthy population of elk and mix in some true monsters.

kchamp · Jan 29, 2004

Guys,
I'm certainly not blaming outfitters for the problems in todays hunting. I agree that they are just a result of hunters desire to hunt different areas and different game. Heck, I considered using one myself. What I'm getting at is, sometimes hunting needs to be maintained for huntings sake, not just the almighty dollar. As to my friends situation, I was not blaming the outfitter but the way that hunting is now run more for a business than a sport. As to the preserves that I spoke of, most of these are not even out west, but in other states that don't even have regular elk seasons. Some of the shows on the tube now are just silly. It is even worse with whitetails. Here at home, we have a local guy that has exotic sheep and goats fenced in on just 45 acres. For 500 to 750 dollars you can "hunt' exotic game. What I'm really getting at guys, is that hunting is not exactly hunting anymore. It is shooting to most of todays hunters, especially to a lot of those that have taken up the sport in the last few years. I know that most of you veterens of the sport remember when there was actually courtesy and friendliness in the sport. Now we have helicopters and lightweight planes to get ahead of oldfashioned horses of backpacking. The rules have changed, and more to favor the end result rather than the joy of getting there. kchamp

springbear · Jan 29, 2004

kchamp, I catch your drift. I kind of figured that was your point. It is hard to say that hunting is not degrading somwhat, just look at the hunting mags. Hell it is close to the womans mags with all the thin super models. I guess you have to have a supermodel wife to have a happy marrige: as you must shoot a 400 bull to have a good hunt..
However, I do like to look at 400 bulls and supermodels but in that order!