SFW of Utah makes Recommendation to Elk Committee

LAST EDITED ON Jun-28-04 AT 05:42PM (MST)[p]They have some good and bad ideas.

Bad:
-Cutting spike elk tags results in a loss of opportunity for what has become a good family outting. Spike tags are how Utah got to the present Big Bull Mania. Spike elk are also the surplus animals. Carrying more spike elk into winter when herds area at objective means cows must be removed from the herd.

-Rotating spike areas is bad. Enforcement of this would cause major headaches and cost money.

-4 Point or better on General Units when the bull cow ratios are 3-5 times higher than objective makes no sense. There are big bulls out there on Gen Any Bull units, especially when a the units have 30 bulls to 100 cows.

Good Points
-Charge the permit fees up front.
-Move the majority of rifle tags out of the rut.
-I like the youth for $100 deal. I don't have kids old enough to hunt, but this seems like a good option.
-The younger age class of bulls on all units seems good, but I think 4 year old units seem a little young.

I would add a Rut rifle hunt for those who have applied for 20 years for this type of hunt. Maybe shorten the Rut-Rifle hunt by 5 days which would let the archers get 5 days further into the rut, but still allow a chance to those who have paid their dues that want use a rifle during the rut.
 
YA

SHORTEN THE RIFLE HUNT BY 5 DAYS???

I'VE PUT IN FOR THIS HUNT FOR QUITE A FEW YEARS AND NOW THEY WANT ME TO HAVE A 4 TO 6 DAY HUNT??

WHEN I FIRST STARTED EARNING BONUS POINTS THESE LE HUNTS WERE NEARLY A MONTH LONG,OH BUT WE CAN HUNT COW ELK FOR MONTHS,WHAT A BUNCH OF B.S.!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT SUPPORTING THE SFW ON A SHORTER RIFLE HUNT!!!
 
I FIGURED SOONER OR LATER IT WOULD HAPPEN


THEY SPENT A WHOPPING 3 HRS AND CAME UP WITH A BATTLE PLAN!!!

I'M PLACING BETS,(EVEN THOUGH GAMBLING AIN'T LEAGAL BUT DESTROYING LE UNITS IS) THAT SAY THERE WILL BE LE UNITS GOING DOWN HILL QUICK!!!

MARK MY WORD ON IT,WHEN SOMETHINGS GOOD WHY MUST IT CHANGE???

ABOUT THE TIME THE LE UNITS ARE DECIMATED AND THEY HAVE IT DOWN TO A 3 DAY HUNT IS ABOUT THE TIME I'LL DRAW THAT HIGHLY COVETED LE TAG!!!

THERE COMES A TIME WHEN YOU CAN'T SATISFY EVERYBODY IN THIS STATE,WHY THE HELL RUIN WHAT LITTLE BIT OF PREMIUM WE HAVE???

THE ONLY bobcat NOT LIKING THE BATTLE PLAN!!!
 
WHOEVER IS SENDING ME MESSAGES TO MY PM (INBOX),IT IS NOT WORKING ANYMORE,YOU'LL HAVE TO SEND ME AN E-MAIL OR POST IT HERE!!!

REMEMBER THE 'MESS'???

HE SCREWED THIS OVER FOR ME ALONG WITH OTHER THINGS!!!

3 MESSAGES IN A ROW,YA I KNOW,YOU THINK I'M TALKING TO MYSELF!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHAT WILL BE NEXT???
 
Bobcat, if you look at their recommendation, SFW has no rut hunt in September for the rifle guys. The proposal runs the archery hunt through the old Any Weapon season up to the ML hunt. The first rifle hunt would occur in Oct and the second rifle hunt would occur in Nov. It is only my opinion that there should be a rut hunt with limited number of tags for the rifle guys who have tried to draw those types of tags for the past 20 years. I'd wager that much of SFW's proposals will not get put into the plan.

By the way, I am not the one who tried to send you a message.
 
I don't like the rotation of spike hunts every other year. It gives people the excuse to "forget" and "accidently" hunt the wrong area. It will be interesting to see how the committee views these proposals and what the public has to say when it is all said and done. It is quite obvious that not everyone will be happy no matter what they decide. I think it is interesting that for several years the DWR has tried to simplify the Proclamations, hunt boundaries, etc. and these proposals seem to be cutting against that grain. What does everyone else think? Have a great day.

Chad
 
It's a very interesting plan that's for sure.

I'm not sure I like the idea of the spike hunts on the premium unit's. They surely would have to be outside the LE dates somehow. It would be terribly unfair the years there were spike hunters on the unit at the same time you drew your once in 80 year odds hunt.

I think in colorado they call those 4th season hunts. Later into the winter to cull spikes. It could be a good idea.

I'd love to have seen the look on Jim's face when he first read that one :)

Cheers,
Pete
 
Great! Now all I need is a new pickup to haul the proclamation and a lawyer to plan my hunt.

This really sounds great for Utah's Guides and private landowners. They get even more monster bulls to sell and we get 80 to 1 odds or a couple of acres to harvest a spike.

Isn't the Heaton Ranch owner on the SFW board? I didn't hear any recommendations for 8' fences in any of these areas. How will the rich boys kill their $15,000 bulls if they keep moving around in the trees and all that other habitat stuff?
 
I've read the proposal and can see the SFW is confirming their position that they are no longer for the average hunter in this state. Why should everyone be billed for a tag before being drawn? At $280 per tag and a family of four that equates out to $1120 for elk and I assume they will want the same for sheep so theres another couple thousand, throw in the deer and pretty soon I need another credit card just to apply for hunts. Those hunters that have been putting in on units such as the Bookcliffs elk since Columbus was sailing will be thrilled to see a spike elk hunt and open hunting on the east end. Just as Utah is able to say the elk are a success the SFW wants to muck up the waters. The SFW has done some good, but times have changed and now are catering to the rich. $280 to kill a good bull, $500 to kill a really good bull, and with a little more money, maybe a 8' fence and a couple trucks and anythings possible. I don't belong to the SFW and keep getting told, if I don't agree I must join to disagree. Now why should I pay $20 to someone to disagree with their opinion. I'd like to think the DWR is for all citizens of Utah and not just those who are members of the SFW. I know in RAC meetings it's hard to believe different, but there is always hope. No, I don't meet with Bush on any regular basis and I don't publish a magazine, but I do have an opinion and anyone who follows the cougar management in Utah does know I'm not afraid to put time into trying to make a difference.
 
I have also reviewed the proposal made by Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife and I to like some things and dislike others.

First, why not bag the spike hunt all together like they are doing on the Wasatch and preserve those bulls for later on in say five years. At this time the spikes are mature bulls which all elk hunters want. Up the tags at that time because you have let the spikes grow up. I think that on some of the units that are proposed for spike hunting every other year will do more harm than good. You cannot control how many hunters go to each on of those units, and further more, you cannot predict how many spike bulls will be killed on any given year. If this spike hunting goes in to affect, I gaurantee you that in 5-6 years SFW will be wishing they would have done something different.

Second, I like what the proposal states in regards to breaking up the hunting dates. This will be good for the oppurtunity issue. One can look at these proposals and realize that maybe, just maybe a Utah resident could draw two quality elk tags or more in there lifetime.

All in all I am glad to be living in the state of Utah. SFW has done some amazing things to ensure hunting for the future. I just hope this spike idea is reviewed again.
 
The only saving grace to this is as the proposal said, they only have one member on the Committee.

The original idea proposed by Peay got him laughed out of the Committee meeting, as in one application per year weather it is for a bull buck cow or doe you get one shot per year... great idea.

I like moving the hunt dates. Keep the application process as it is and point restrictions never have worked in Utah
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-04 AT 12:55PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-04 AT 12:52?PM (MST)

Move most of the rifle hunts out of the rut and slowly increase the opportunity based on harvest. It's really plain and simple. Leave the rest of the things the way they are! Some of the comments made have been right on. SFW are not representing us at all and it shows with all their proposals. What a joke! Let's just make it an even 1000 dollars for a resident trophy bull tag then all the SFW board members will have great odds to get a tag! LOL!
 
IMO, I think it's a very good plan. I would like to someday draw a tag and don't need to hunt in an area that is managed for 98% success.
There is NEVER going to be a plan that will satisfy everyone, it's impossible. There will always be someone to complain.

I'm sorry I started this thread. I thought maybe it would bring out some insightful, intelligent suggestions. Unforunately, it only brings more complaints. It's too bad.

For those who shared their views without just complaining, thanks for your input.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Alright, I have been watching this for a few days and have a couple of opinions on the matter.

First off, I don't think everything on this post is a complaint. I think there are people here disagreeing with the proposals, so therefore they are "complaining" about them. I don't want people thinking that posts supporting this plan are insightful, intelligent, suggestions while posts disagreeing are just the traditional whiners whining.

The things I like about the proposals are the increased killing of adult bull elk on the Wasatch and other units. There are thousands of branched antlered bulls on the units, they could support this amount of hunting. I also like the idea of closing the spike season, as long as there is a tremendous increase in the any bull permit numbers given out. Could you imagine the bulls around Strawberry in five years if 90% of the spikes didn't die this fall?

I also like having some of the rifle tags out of the rut. However, I don't think the success rates will fall as much as some predict, so they need to be careful not to issue too many late tags. The reason they won't fall is that mainly "die-hards" will apply for these seasons, and therefore they will probably kill a bull.

I don't like the idea of killing spikes on the premium limited units. If they think that is a good idea, they should just not shoot the spikes and then give out more big bull tags down the road. If you kill 250 spikes on Monroe this year, that is maybe 150-200 fewer 7 year-olds in 2010. I say just give out 150 more permits in 2010 for big bulls, assuming the herd surveys verify similar survival statistics.

I don't know what to think about the strategy of increasing application costs as a means of reducing the odds to draw the "big hunts." To me, that is what the proposal is doing. It is just increasing the cost to apply solely for the purpose of trying to put it out of reach of some applicants, therefore the odds will be better for those that spend the money. Sure I would gladly pay $500 for a Pahvant tag, but I don't think we need to do that to everybody who wants to apply. Also 280 bucks for a wasatch archery elk tag seems a bit steep as well. This is the basis of my biggest beef with SFW.

I feel like SFW doesn't represent the average sportsman. I feel like SFW best represents the wealthy sportsman. I think a better name for the group would be the "Guides for Wealthy Sportsman" foundation. Yes they have raised money through convincing the DWR to let them sell tags, but this has benefitted the 30-50 guys with lotsa money far more than the rest of us. Some guys now hunt the Pahvant every year, and to me this occurs under the veil of helping the elk through the proceeds of the tags. I personally think it is bs.

This proposal further separates the classes of hunters. That is my biggest problem with it, but I do support several of the management concepts addressed within it. I believe we need to kill more bulls in Utah than we currently are. I also believe that SFW is helping out the wealthy sportsman far more than the rest of us.

Tell me where I am wrong,

Pinenut
 
Pinenut, Great Post! It's funny how the truth really hurts those that are really involved in SFW. They're the ones that need to make some intelligent comments explaining how all this is going to benefit the average sportsman. 500 dollar tag fees I don't think so!
 
Bottomline, the "Average Sportsmen" may get to hunt a LE elk unit once every 12-15 years, rather than every 40+ years. Makes sense to me.
Opportunity is what most people in Utah want, not a record book bull.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
OK Founder,

I admit I was sarcastic and complained but you asked for opinions and after reading the proposals thats all I could come up with.

You agree with raising fees to $280.00 and youths to $100.00. That may be a screaming deal for the rich among us but to many of us it is ridiculous. Idaho allows their youth to hunt for $15.00 which in turn keeps kids interested in our pasttime. I am willing to bet that the fee increase will be a bone of contention with the majority of hunters. $280 seems more like non-resident prices (actually it almost is).

If you decrease spike tags would you not have to increase cow tags to meet unit objectives or do you just ignore objectives? If you kill more cows will this mean less bull calves born the next year? In the short term you would have more branch bulls but what about the down the road a ways?

About the 4 point or better restriction in General hunt areas: They are right in saying that in 3-4 years there would be more branch bulls but this is a general hunt area and having larger bulls in a general hunts area would only attract the hunters that were unsuccessful in the limited entry draws. So then what do you do to control the hunters? - You got it, change the area to a limited hunt area, charge $280 and give me odds of 80 to 1. Another loss to the common hunter and a gain for the rich boys.

Here is my question to you. You tell me exactly what part of the SFW proposal would benefit the common hunter with an averages annual salary of less than 35,000 and a couple of kids. Then explain which parts of the proposal benefit the rich. Maybe you will understand the complaints you have been reading.

Oh, and by the way. Did you get a chance to read the survey the SFW used to backup their propositions? Question 4 concerns how many would support requiring funds to be paid up front with the application. Within the question they write "(this would exclude a lot of the Grandmothers, wives, kids that truly do not participate in hunting activities)" What are they assuming here? I guess Grandma's, wives and kids are clogging up the odds of the rest of us? Do you know of anyone that has drawn a limited entry hunt but did not go because they were a grandma etc...? I always thought the point of ensuring the survival of our sport was to involve as many as possible. Guess that is not true in the SFW eyes.

Sorry Founder, I disagree.
 
"Founders Quote" - Opportunity is what most people in Utah want, not a record book bull."

You are right except you want to reduce spike tags by about 50% and that would only REDUCE hunting opportunity to those that enjoy hunting elk in spike only areas every year.

These proposals reduce hunting opportunity. I want to hunt elk every year and I dont care if I am hunting huge bulls or spikes I just want to be out hunting.
 
Well, I'm not sure, but I don't believe SFW was behind the $280.00 elk fee. I believe it has aleady been voted on by the Wildlife Board and will be in effect, regardless of anything else. Maybe someone else knows more about that??????

I agree that $280.00 & $100.00 is a lot, but as I see it, gas and food on your hunt will be even more. And, the quality will be worth it. Utah has some huge bulls that are worth $280.00 to hunt. That's my opinion, and I'm the cheapest dude around!!!!

As far as people applying wives, grandparents, etc. who don't even care about hunting, that is exactly what is happening. 14,000 more people applied in 2004!!!! Could be more in 2005.

If it were up to me, I like the way Wyoming does things as far as making people send money in to apply. It helps odds and those of us who allocate our extra pennies for hunting do have better odds. I hope Wyoming never goes to an application system like Utah, or the odds will go from 1 in 3 to 1 in 10.

Atleast what is proposed by SFW still allows credit cards to be used, similar to Colorado.

IMO, making people actually pay for tags they apply for, will eliminate a few thousand applicants and give those of us who really want to hunt a better chance.

That's my opinion!!

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
And the 14,000 more applications were from those that truly do not hunt (grandmas, kids etc)? You are out to increase your odds at any cost.

Founders Quote "I agree that $280.00 & $100.00 is a lot, but as I see it, gas and food on your hunt will be even more." What is your point here? It is ok to spend $280 because food will cost more?

You didn't respond to the 4 point or better issue I brought up. I am curious of your opinion.
 
I will agree about pay the money up front because if you are serious you should not have a problem coming up with the money now and not later. I have watched the odds on other states as well as Utah go to hell when they allow people to apply with a credit card and only get cherged the application fee up front and get charged for the rest only if drawn. This is what makes it so easy for the anti hunters to apply also and if they do get drawn they will just burn the tags. If everyone that is serious about drawing a tag just start saving your money now and you should have enough to apply next season. You can mark my words your odds will increase with this decision. You will still get a refund check later after the draws. It is a win win situation.
JUST MY TWO CENTS.I am not wealthy but if you cant put in with the big boys stop putting in and quit hunting.
 
The fact is, you and I, you and others, and others and I, disagree. That's all there is to it. There will NEVER be a solution that will please everyone.

The idea is to try and implement something that will try to benefit everyone. SFW is not the only group who has a seat at the Elk Committee table, yet who else has asked for your opinion? No body!!!
I guess I can kind of see why, there are just too many opinions and too few solutions. So, the other 14 people on the committee just remain tight lipped and will suggest what they want.

I appreciate the SFW board for asking the opinions of their members. Sure, they can't make everyone happy, but nothing will.

As far as my opinion, I appreciate you wanting to know, but it doesn't really matter, I don't have any say. My opinion is as powereful as yours. But, on the 4-point or better issue, I don't think those areas will ever be limited entry. They'll just be 4-point or better. Don't know what else to tell you.

The SFW, using an online poll, asked the opinion of Utah sportsmen. They didn't have to, but chose to before making any decisions or taking any position on the issue.
Instead of slamming SFW for taking a position, you should be glad they tried to base their position on public input.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I like all of the recommendations except the 4-point restriction in the any bull units. I think point restrictions lead to bulls getting shot and abandoned, as well as genetically selecting for inferior bulls in the population. A simple branch bull restriction would work just as well in my opinion.

For those whining about the $280, just save $1.44 per day from now until Jan 15, then you will have the cash to apply for every year until you draw (as long as you put your refund in your gun safe for the next year)!
 
John:

The $280 fee has nothing to do with the SFW, the DWR or any of us for that matter. It is voted on by the state legislature and is already cast in stone. They are the ones who set fees for hunting and fishing in the state. Complain there to resolve that issue.

I'm not a member of the SFW and rarely ever agree with them on anything, but I personally know of a huge number of people who apply for every one and all their neighbors as well. The number of applications increased three fold when they went to a $5 only application fee with credit cards.

I agree that it will be expensive for me to apply for my family, but I will make due as I find it to be worth the tied up money for 4 months. Those who are not really serious about hunting will not find it worthwhile and will not apply any more.

This will bring the odds and applications back to those of us who are really interested in hunting as a hobby. It's not about rich vs. poor but those really interested in their hobby vs. those that are just applying for the sake of winning a lottery.

Obviously we only have 25,000 elk hunters in the state every year, but we have 45,000 to 50,000 apply for LE hunts every year. There are 85,000 point holders for elk. Where are these people when it comes time to hunt each fall?

Face it there are a ton of non-hunters applying because it only costs $5 to win the lottery.

Antler point restrictions have pretty well proven to not work in most states. I don't particularly disagree with the concept though. It's not about turning the Open Bull units into LE units but providing the quality vs. quantity that most of us have been looking for over the years. This was just one idea to provide more opportunity for quality for more people.

The problem we have is that there are too many bulls in the state to support healthy herds. Either we kill more bulls or we have to cull small bulls to deal with it. At some point we will have more bulls than cows on the premium units and then down the road there will be bigger problems.

There is no simple solution to any of this, but we can move forward without blowing it up. Maybe there is a nugget in this haystack to pick up and run with.

Cheers,
Pete
 
I personally support the whole plan. Especially the part about paying up front. I dreaded the decision to let everyone apply for $5 and wish it would go to "pay up front" with no use of credit cards. Get your priorities straight. We who really want a tag will have much better odds if they charge up front!!!! Steve
 
Guy's like Brian has said you cant please everyone but with the pay upfront you are EXCLUDING a huge portion of people that have just a much right and have been waiting just as long as you have for these tags.

Are we forgetting the application period comes right after CHRISTMAS oh sorry little Johnny you cant have that new bow or gun because dad has to send the DWR $280.00 and we have to finish paying off Christmas for you and your two sisters, well the hell with the holidays you kids can do without christmas untill daddy draws his tag. My kids mean a hell of a lot more to me than some cummy bull. If this is the way the rich want to create opportunity for "ALL" then keep supporting the groups that would propose this kind of trash, this excludes the majority of hunters I know that would have to send in money up front right after Christmas, I'll bet it would exclude the majority of the people reading this right now as well.

Think about this $280.00 feels a lot better in May than it does in January but then us poor slobs just scraping by
really don't count anyway

Gordy
 
Yes kids are very important and I know it is tough right after christmas to put in so that is why we are saying start saving now so you wont have the burden of having to come up with the money right after christmas. How will you be able to pay your credit card debt back if you were to draw. It will be the same as right after christmas just a different time of year. Credit cards are what get people into to much debt anyway. If you dont have the money now how will you have the money then if you are not saving. It will be the same as Christmas but a different time of year. If you did draw how are you going to even feed the kids during the summer due to fuel costs scouting and equipment being purchased for the up coming hunt that you have drawn.The permit fee will be the cheapest part of your hunt and you will still owe your credit card debt. Oh I guess some people will charge the entire hunt on the there credit cards also and worry about not having a Christmas for the kids the next year because you will be so far in debt trying to pay back the purchases on the card.GAS FOOD PERMIT EQUIPMENT AND TAXIDERMY.
ONLY PUT IN FOR HUNTS THAT EACH INDIVIDUAL CAN AFFORD IT WILL SAVE A DIVORCE AND BAD CREDIT.
JUST MY TWO CENTS.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-04 AT 09:04PM (MST)[p]But like it also says, hunters who really hunt for the love of hunting will save their money and be in a position to apply regardless of Christmas or whatever comes up. I think most of us have families and children, etc., but anyone who wants to hunt and knows he must have the money to put in will set it aside along the way and not have to take from their kids at Christmas, or take food from their mouths. $280 is barely a car payment now days....If it is that tough, get an extension for one month and use it to apply. Then you are taking nothing from anyone. If I want to go somewhere or hunt somewhere, or buy a new gun, or whatever, I find a way to get the money together if I really want it bad enough. And I don't think my kids or family have ever thought I have taken anything from them. Start now and stash $10 a week, and by the drawing dates at the end of January, you will have your elk application money.

I don't care for the point restriction as it does create a lot of wasted animals. A lot of "meat" hunters shoot first and look at the antlers later, and then just mosey off if it is not legal. Keep the spike tags as they are and let the meat hunters have the opportunity that they enjoy..

IMHO, if a person loves to hunt, he will do whatever it takes to put himself in a position financially, or physically, to have that opportunity. Now if he could only draw the tag!!!

Just my $.02!
a*r
A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 
And another thing to consider, if you can't afford to put up the $280 cash for applying for the hunts before Christmas, how are you going to come up the $$$$$$ for the taxidermy bill that you will certainly have if you draw a tag. And that is usually right before the Christmas holiday, and it is a lot more that the $280 for the permit!! Like they said above, by the time you draw that tag, spend the summer scouting, buy all your supplies for the hunts, and then vist your taxidermist, the permit fee will be very minimal. For the quality hunt that you will experience, the money should not be a factor...

Get Real!!!! If you can't afford to jump in, don't jump at all!
a*r

A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I have a wife and two kids that are hunters. How many of you can say you've had your whole family to a treed bear or lion. I can and have numerous times. I agree $280 is not a big deal for a chance at an elk for myself, but lets remember I HAVE A FAMILY THAT HUNTS. So times this by four. Then realize all draws are applied for at the same time, this means another $2000 for bighorns. I'm also one of the hunters who doesn't always hunt elk, but I'm no less of a hunter. I choose not to always hunt for spikes after spending much of the fall guiding other hunters. The fact that my family puts in for draw permits for premium tags by no means says we are less hunter oriented than others. How many of you can say your wife and children have attended RAC meetings? Mine have. I'm tired of the attitude that only the rich can hunt. What does the future hold- something along the line of hunting the kings game!
 
im far from rich but I'd find a way and i'd find a way for my family too. right now all these recommendations mean are better odds, bigger animals, and less cheating
 
I guess not many people remember just 7-8 years ago when the applicant had to send in the CASH(Check). No credit cards, bank cards, just the money. You had to pay the highest fee of the species applied for. Those were the good old days when draw odds were 1 in 7, not 1 in 40. Guys lined up in the DWR parking lot to view the Successful list because there was no internet. Ahhhhhhhhh, the good old days.
 
I remember those days 2_Point! They were also the days when I got to see some newbie from california draw his first year for pilot mtn. LOL!

At least you got to see someone face to face that you could heckle for being so lucky :)

Cheers,
Pete
 
WELL

IT LOOKS AS THE SFW WANTS TO MAKE ALL RULES AND REGS. ON LE UNITS!!!

QUALITY JUST ONCE!!!,IN A GUY'S LIFE!!!BEATS THE HELL OUT OF ALL THE 'JUNK' QUANTITY EVER STACKED UP!!!

YA,IT WOULD BE GOOD FOR HUNTERS FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS BUT THEN UNITS START HEADING IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION!!!

CAN ANYBODY SEE THE LIGHT???

I'LL BET EVEN MOST 'HOUND DOGGERS' CAN FIGURE THIS ONE OUT???

YOU CAN'T HUNT BIG GAME FROM MID AUGUST THROUGH DECEMBER-JANUARY WITH CONTINUOUS AND OVERLAPPED HUNTS NON STOP,CAN ANYBODY FIGURE IT OUT???I'D BET MONEY WITH THIS KIND OF EXTENDED PRESSURE THIS IS ANOTHER ONE OF THE REASONS THE MULE DEER HERD HAS WENT TO HELL!!!

THIS WOULD BE LIKE SAYING:O.K. GUY'S,WE ARE GOING TO LET YOU HARVEST 4 SPIKES OR 2 POINTS IN YOUR LIFE,YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO TAKE A 30"ER!!!

I'M ASKING AGAIN AND PLEASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSE,WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE TURN THEIR LE TAG BACK IN,I THINK I MIGHT BE NEXT IN LINE TO RECIEVE THE TAG BEFORE THE DWR,AND SFW RECOMENDATIONS COMPLETELY DESTROY THE LE UNITS,ALL I WOULD LIKE TO DO IS TRY FOR ONE (1) (UNO) TROPHY BULL IN MY LIFE,IF I SCREW IT UP,IT'S MY FAULT AND IT'S OVER,IF OTHERS(DWR & SFW) SCREW IT UP FOR EVERYBODY THAT HAD A CHANCE AT A TROPHY,YA,I'M GONNA BE MAD,CALL ME A COMPLAINER OR WHATEVER YOU WANT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT CAN PLAINLY SEE WHERE THESE UNITS ARE HEADED!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-04 AT 08:36AM (MST)[p]I have to disagree with you on that point c3. SFW does have very active and powerful lobbying power & personell during the legislature.

They were and are the driving force behind the fee increases and have been for the last ten years. They do not vote on the changes but they sure as heck lobby for the changes and fee increases. Some senator or representative doesn't just all of the sudden decide to propose a bill for fee increases for hunting!!!!!!

If you don't believe that, then maybe next session you should spend some time on the "hill" and watch Don and his boys at work.

My wife and I both put in for big bull, moose and deer, and like most working class guys and gals, I don't have a couple thousand dollars to let the fish and game sit on for six months.
 
>I personally support the whole plan.
>Especially the part about paying
>up front. I dreaded the
>decision to let everyone apply
>for $5 and wish it
>would go to "pay up
>front" with no use of
>credit cards. Get your priorities
>straight. We who really want
>a tag will have much
>better odds if they charge
>up front!!!! Steve

So your'e saying that those who use a credit card really dont want a tag??????? Get real.. Ive used a crd every year because its easy to do on line makes no diffrence to me .. I can pay cash if thats what it takes... the credit card just makes it easy to use on line. Do not judge others when you dont know what your'e talkiing about...just because someone uses a credit card doesn't mean they cant pay for it! Certainly doesn't mean they really dont want a tag!
 
I feel your pain Bobcat, However something must be done to allow my kids and your kids to hunt elk and other species that they currently have no chance in h@#$ of ever drawing out on. I think you will draw out soon and still have a quality hunt. Elk are not deer and the deer herd was screwed up by more than the DWR. Have a great day!

Chad
 
Elk_horn- all I'm saying is if they would have left the applications alone and without credit card use YOU and I would have had much greater odds of drawing. "the credit card just makes it easy to use online" That's my point!!!!! Anyone can put in their whole family @ $5 a pop and many people do. I am very real.....Steve
 
I think that if you require the money up front then the only ones that will be eliminated from "cheating" will be the poor boys. Rich people won't have trouble floating 5 grand for a few months. I am in no way rich, but coming up with the money up front is not that big of deal. You get it back. Yes, it is nice not to have to pay for something until you draw, but most people have truck/wheeler/boat/gun/sled/etc. payments that are double that in ONE month.

I am still deciding on my opinion for the other stuff. I sure have enjoyed hunting every year (spike) and just seeing the big bulls. But on the other hand possibly gettting something bigger could be a plus. Like everyone, it is hard to want to gamble the quality we have now in hopes for a better plan.

To Brian: These threads are great - don't be sorry you posted. I work two jobs, have three daughters and a wife so making it to public meetings is difficult. MM MB, DWR Web site, and others is the only way I get info and hear about what is going on and hear all sorts of opinions.
 
I agree with bobcat.

Let me draw a pahvant tag next year, cash in my 12 points, and SFW can pimp out and control the elk population. I want the same "opportunity" that those before me had.

I still cannot believe, for the life of me, that that asinine survey was used. SFW cannot be that stupid to think that it represents the population. Good observation bobcat. 3 hours of deliberation by the elk gods of Utah and a plan is formed. A plan to cater to those who only have a few points.

SFW can kiss my butt. Don Peay does not need to improve my opportunity. I don't need or want his help. Go help Wade Heaton manage his private land and keep your nose out of public land control. It is just like the sheep on Timp. SFW thinks they should have the power to control public land and what happens on it.

Surely those representatives in SFW have drawn or bought their tag. Now, they want to change the rules. Founder, you even stated earlier you would like to cash your 5 points for a chance at a good bull. Why do you only have 5? Did you draw a deer tag 5 years ago? I did not. I am STILL waiting for my bull tag. So, if you have to wait another 15 years, too bad. It pisses me off that I have dedicated my points to elk every year and now some one doesn't like the system.

Why are you regretting this thread Brian? Because people don't want the "plan"!

I am getting close to saying to hell with hunting. It has got to the point it is not even fun. Don Peay is like my daddy when I was 10 years old. I need to play by his rules and whatever it is that promotes his cash cow. Can I go and play now Don?
 
"Why are you regretting this thread Brian?"

Oh, I guess some good has come of it. The reason I posted it was to get feedback, not just people bellyaching about SFW. That's not the focus I hoped for from the thread.

Bottomline, SFW is the only group representing a seat at the Elk Committee table who has asked for any sportsmens opinion. The point of this thread was to gather alternate ideas to increase opportunity while preserving quality.

I think there is some very good, helpful information in the thread. But man, it sure ruins it when a guy has to filter through all the SFW, Don, Wade, and DWR bellyaching.

You don't like SFW, so what! SFW is not the ones who came up with the idea to make changes. SFW was just invited to make suggestions because SFW is the largest sportsmen group in Utah, with 10,000+ members. Makes sense to me.

BTW, the survey represents the opinions of 900 people, that is a very large sample group and I believe it does represent what most people want. If it sways to either side, it's to the side of yourself. Because of all those people who apply for elk each year, it's a small percentage who have more than 8 or 9 points. If every person who applied for elk in 2003 voted on a plan, you would really loose, because the majority have less than 3 points and they're going to want all the opportunity they can get.

You should be glad that there are other diehard, high elk point holders such as yourself on the SFW board, who also attend RAC meetings faithfully, who are standing up for the same as yourself. The only difference is that they also can see from the other side, and realize that elk hunting in Utah shouldn't be once-in-a-lifetime, and for some, a hunt that will NEVER happen.

Whether you like SFW or not, I don't care. I will say though to anyone else reading, the group is working harder than any other group to make a difference in Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, New Mexico, and soon, other states. That is apparent in the MM forums of late. SFW draws the attention they do because they're on the battle field trying to make a difference in a battle where not everyone can win. In fact, no matter what happens to elk hunting or deer hunting, many people will complain, whether it benefits them or not, because it is impossible to implement any management plan that matches the ideas of everyone.

Only one group has even asked for public input on the Elk hunting in Utah, SFW. The proposal they came up with is based on public input and it is not set in stone. Suggestions are welcome.

This subject has exhausted me. I'm ready to go deer scouting!

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
WELL

I'M NOT COMPLAIMING,BUT I AM STICKING UP FOR WHAT LE UNITS ARE ALL ABOUT,A 'QUALITY HUNT','A GOOD CHANCE AT A TROPHY BULL','A HUNT WITHOUT A$$HOLE TO ELBOW ACTION','QUITE POSSIBLY A ONCE IN A LIFETIME HUNT',BUT DAMN WELL WORTH THE WAIT!!!

THERE COMES A TIME WHEN THE DWR SHOULD STAND UP AND SAY:WE DON'T CARE IF THE MAJORITY WANTS TO DECIMATE THE LE UNITS,WE ARE NOT GOING TO LET IT HAPPEN!!!(FAT CHANCE OF THEM STANDING UP WHEN THEY NEED TO!!!)

FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT ENJOY QUANTITY,YOU CAN ENJOY IT EVERY YEAR ON ONE OF THOSE HIGHLY COVETED OPEN SEASON GENERAL AREA BULL TAGS,YOU'LL FIND A QUANTITY OF HUNTERS YOU JUST CAN'T FIND ANYWHERE ELSE!!!

I'M REALLY DISAPOINTED THAT NOBODY HAS TURNED THEIR LE TAG BACK IN,I EVEN SAID PLEASE,MAYBE THIS THREAD HAS GOT THEM THINKING:MAN I'M GLAD I DRAWED THIS YEAR,I CAN SEE THEY'RE GOING TO BE CHANGING THINGS!!!

THINK ABOUT THIS:O.K.,SO YOU ISSUE MORE TAGS ON THE LE UNITS,NEXT YEAR YOU'LL HAVE 20,000 MORE PEOPLE CRYING FOR EVEN MORE TAGS,WHERE DOES IT END???,WHEN THE UNITS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED DUE TO GREED,THATS WHERE!!!

SURE,EVERYBODY AND THEIR BUDDIES WANT TO HUNT TROPHY BULL'S,HELL,SO DO I,THE HARD COLD TRUTH:YOU CAN'T SATISFY EVERY CRY BABY IN THIS STATE SO WHY THE HELL TRY TOO???

THE ONLY bobcat SUGGESTING:pLEASE LEAVE THE LE UNITS FOR 'QUALITY',THERE IS QUANTITY AND OPPORTUNITY ON THE OPEN BULL HUNTS!!!(HE,HE!!!)
 
I guess that I am one of the guys in the minority oppinion here. I think that the fee's are two high, I hate the idea of paying up front, and I enjoy the oppertunity of chasing spikes when I dont draw out for a big bull(which is all that has happened so far). And I am hoping to draw out for a once in a lifetime hunt sometime.
Hunting has always been a family sport for me. I started with my dad and brothers and I plan on taking my daughters out and having a great time showing them all of the things that I enjoy. This SFW plan is taking the family experience out of the hunt.
I know that everyone is supposed to be able to afford the tag no matter what and it would still be an incredible bargain at 1000 dollars. But give me a break. Putting myself and my wife and daughters in because they are interested in hunting and want to go would soon cost a mint. The average hunter does not have that much money near christmas to throw away. For the lot of us it would be over a thousand dollars to apply for a premium unit. They might as well put it at a thousand dollars a person while they are at it because it will price the family hunters out of it.
I'm also tired of the elitist attitude a lot of people have. I dont get the guys that dont want my family to put in for the hunt because it ruins their odds of getting their tag. I guess we dont have the same right to hunt that they do. They figure that if they jack up the price enough the familys wont put in. Last time I checked their was not a a special requirement to be a wealthy super hunter to have the right to put in for a tag. For those think 500 is such a steal pay a little more get a land owner tag and hunt every year.
Just my 2 cents

Andy
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-04 AT 10:15AM (MST)[p] For those worried about money upfront, family and christmas why not give a chance to hunt LE big game for christmas??
I say raise the permit fee's, money upfront and do away with the credit card application. The fact is there are a lot of people who are being put into the draws who don't really care if they get to hunt or not. Most of these don't even know what or where they are being put in for.
Your getting your money back if you don't draw. It's like putting it in the bank. If you ever plan on drawing you will have to pay it sooner or later. Why not pay it now? Take that money use it for the draws year after year until you do draw.
For those who slam SFW, is there someone else out there fighting for your rights to hunt?
 
Brian,

Look, I am bellyaching because I have been waiting my turn. I want my turn. I want my turn to experience what those before me did.

I am sorry buddy. That survey is junk. You cannot post a simple survey on the web and expect to get real, valuable, results. Let someone who know what in the hell they are doing like Dan Jones and Associates perform the survey if you want real answers. I do not want my opportunity screwed up by some dumbassed survey.

Can you tell me the percentages of those that had how many points? Can you tell me what percentage hunted exclusively with a bow, muzz, or rifle? Can you tell me what percentage has hunted another species or have drawn another species tag on an LE? Can you tell me the ages of those that replied? Can you tell me if those respondants were duplicates? Can you give me any justification for the results that you got on the survey?
Probably not and those are questions that must be answered. Hell, whoever wrote up that survey had a hard time spelling correctly and that even concerns me more. This was not professionally done. Period.

I will back off of SFW. I think I have made my point, but I hardly call it bellyaching when chapter presidents are trapping protected wildlife. This is a black eye to the group and find it odd that those within the group are not speaking out against this embarrassing act.

I hope I provided some good insight.
 
hey ktc what do you mean by chapter presidents are trapping protected wildlife.

Please explain
 
whose side is the SFW on? i think ours! now who's pocket book are they in or helping grow more? utah fish and game!!
 
What does that even mean 4x?? Are you saying they help the fish and game grow? Do you mean the Fish and Game department or wild little fish's and game animal's? Sorry but when I read your post's my first thought is WTF..... Please explain.
 
All you need to do is go to Nevada nowdays and see what giving out too many tags has done for their quality the past 3 years.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-04 AT 07:02PM (MST)[p]What this "pay up front" method is really saying, is that if you don't have money, you need not apply.

Look, game animals are a public commodity owned equally by all of us. Rich folks can already buy their way onto private ranches or purchase tags at auction to enjoy quality hunts. But for the rest us poor saps??? The only hope we have is to somehow draw a tag in the annual lottery. Don't take away our dreams by making us pay up front with money we don't have.

**********************************

Oh, and BTW, for a group like the SFW that is trying to play down it's reputation as a group only representing the big money elitists, who was the political bonehead that put their stamp of approval on this one???
 
NUNYA, I love your idea of giving a chance for a permit as a Christmas present. My daughter will love that. While I'm at it I'll photograph a new Viper and give that to her as well and just let her know if I win big in Vegas it's hers. She'll just jump up and down again in April when she finds out she didn't draw again with excitement knowing I'll give her the same thing next year and maybe even throw in a photo of a new Hummer for offroad trips while the Viper is home in the garage of the nice home I also photographed. Sorry some of you are so worried about drawing yourself that you don't think others have the right to draw as well. All this talk about grandmas, friends, cousins, etc. is getting old. Why can't someones grandma hunt, or why are you any better than one of my friends or relatives? Bottom line a grandma or a friend may draw the tag and not you, but last I checked that was the freedom we are in Irag right now protecting.
 
Imagine that, traditional hunter opinion seems to be beating out those of the elite trophy hunters. It seems it is more important to share our yearly hunting experiences with family and friends and less important to increase our drawing odds (and tag fees) at the expence of our traditions.

KTC has a good point asking exactly who participated in the SFW survey. By the way, does the SFW have a poor-boy-traditional- hunter on their board to represent the other 90% of Utah hunters? If not they should get one if they are going to act like they represent ALL hunters.

I believe Brian said that there were 14000 more applications this year over last. Sure that decreases your odds but that is still 14000 more hunters that will make damn sure our hunting rights are protected. I'll take the hunting rights of my kids over a LE elk tag any day. It also seems that the 14000 extra applicants outnumber the 900+ SFW survery participants.

It is nice to see that grandma, the kids and our wives are still welcome in most hunting camps. Hopefully the DWR will see it that way.
 
"Don't make me pay upfront for a tag I can't afford." What???? If you can't afford the tag then why are you putting in and how will you ever pay for the tag if you draw it????

When I was 15, my Dad asked if I wanted to apply for a hunt and I said sure. Then he asked me to get out my money. If you don't earn it or sacrifice for it, you usually don't fully appreciate it. If you have 3 teenagers tell them to get a summer job and save thier nickles and dollars for the application fees.

SFW proposed the "Youth" fee which is $100 and not $280. That seems good to me, but the "Poor" hunters on here are whining about the overall proposal. Sounds like a bunch of Democrats whining that they don't get enough social services.

I don't agree with the whole proposal. Some good parts some bad. Doesn't make the whole organization a bunch of "rich" guys.
 
Why is it that a few that support the SFW proposal resort to calling names and use the word "whine" or "cry" when someone disagrees with them? Do you think your method will change the minds of those that disagree?

By the way, I can afford the tags but I feel that alienating those that cannot afford to tie that much money up at one time is not the answer(Can you believe that just came out of a Republican's mouth?).
 
I like the idea of making everyone pay up front if it will drop even 15% of applicants it was worth doing. If you draw the tag you pay the monies anyways so either way You must have that much saved to spend.
I would love for 1 day my dad to get a elk tag before he passes on he has been applying now for 13 yrs, nothing!
It's not right it needs to change from a lotto to highest point holder wins.
 
Puma guy, maybe if you didnt drop your pay check in vegas you could afford to pay for a tag upfront. Your right we are protecting freedom right now. You are also free to buy a hummer, viper, and a new house. When they raise the tag fees (I hope) and make you pay upfront (I hope) yes even you puma guy will be free to put your name in the hat for a chance to draw. Puma guy you are also free to get a better paying job.
The bottom line is most of your wives, grandmas, aunts, girl friends and daughters could care less if they draw a permit. We (notice I said we cause I'm guilty also) put them in so we can have a chance to hunt mature bulls, sheep or what ever with them.
Like 2-point said if you can't afford to pay up front why the hell are you even putting in. Your still going to pay if you draw.
 
I have been reading this post and I agree with BOBCAT. I would rather wait and hunt for a BIG BULL one time in my life than chase branched bulls 2 or 3 times in my life. Quality over Quantity everytime for me ( I have 1 point ). I will wait my turn. If I did want to chase branched bulls the DWR has given me ample opportunity in any bull units.
I like the idea of putting your money in up front for the tags. I dont make a lot each year. I do have a large family. We take advantage, just like everyone else, of the $5 "processing fee." All it would take is putting a little money in savings each month. I can save all year for a Once-in-a-lifetime-hunt. But, I want a ONCE-IN-A-LIFETIME hunt.
The $100 fee for youths is ridiculous. Make it affordable for the young hunters. Hunting is an expensive sport. To many young hunters $100 dollars is a lot of money. I could pay for my kids tag, but that is not the point. Make it affordable to take the kids out. Let the kids hunt. Any sportman who has a family will agree with me, It is as much, or more, of a thrill seeing a child take their first game animal, than taking one for yourself. This is the time that the youth are easily swayed one way or the other. (hunting vs. anti-hunting) Make it affordable for them and hook them for life.
One more thing, we hunter fight over the stupidest sh!t in the entire world. Any group that is as divided as we are does not stand a chance in getting what the we (hunters) want because we are so busy nit-picking one another. Let it be. We all have differences but we also have things in common. We all love the same things hunting, opening morning, time in the field. Lets put aside the differences and do things that are best for the Wildlife, family, others, and then ourselves. I will get off my soapbox now.
 
Thank God I drew out this year! I feel sorry for the guys who have 12 points now... If these suggestions by SFW are put into
play they will not have the same Quility experience that others have had after along wait. Even the guys with 8 points its going to hurt.
 
My wife and I have been putting in for an elk tag for so long It's almost just a habit. I don't agree with this proposal in the least. Can you see four to five hundred hunters on the east end of the Bookcliffs, looking for a four point bull. Also I would like to know, are the people that buy the consevation tags going to be allowed to hunt archery, muzzleloader, early and late rifle season if so it sounds like catering to big money to me. No one has brought this up I sure would like to hear something on this issue. another issue that makes my stomach turn is that there is a rifle hunt on the south Bookcliffs for deer that goes until November 7th, and all the landowner tags are good for the late hunt regardless of wether they came from a landowner on the north unit or not. This is going to impact the deer in a big way.

Mulehound
 
Sorry, if this sounds really uninformed (I do understand the make up and history of SFW), but why are the recommendations of SFW any more important than the recommendations of any other hunting interest group? To be honest I have real concerns over the role and influence that SFW has in wildlife management in the state of Utah. I don't feel that SFW promotes the views of the majority of hunters within the state, rather they are a very well funded lobbying group pushing a self serving agenda within the state. I will be the first to admit that DWR has not always made the correct choices, but they are an agency that has to try and please a broad user base. How easy it is for an interest group to come in and often make specific demands on wildlife managers? Does Utah DWR have something in place that guides their management of wildlife that is based on unbiased and random data collection from license holders across the state? In Idaho we just went through a strategic planning process and I felt that many good things came from this effort (tip my cap to IDFG). I wonder how many Utah supporters of SFW go to Idaho or other states because of enhanced opportunity. From discussion with very active hunters in Utah, SFW has promoted some very good big game causes, but be honest, has your opportunity to hunt been enhanced by the efforts of SFW (I ask this with sincerity, because not living or hunting in the state I truly do not know). The other question is, if you answered yes to the question of hunting in other states, why do you hunt there? I would bet that the reason is because you have better opportunity in these states, especially on a general hunt level, even Mike Eastman in his book on hunting high country mule deer makes this point (Yes, I do realize that this book was written in the early 90's and things have changed a bit in Idaho concerning deer numbers and buck quality, but comparatively I would take it over the Utah scenario). SFW can say that they are trying to change this, but the pattern is that once opportunity is taken away (normally supported by public sportsman), we rarely get these opportunities back, because the public doesn't support increasing the opportunity once it is has been altered. The point of this rant is that SFW is aggressively trying to move into the realm of dictating wildlife management in my home state of Idaho. I pray that the sportsmen of Idaho are wise enough to not allow this group to gain the political leverage to manipulate the management of wildlife in Idaho. Don't get me wrong, everyone has the right and I feel obligation to stand up and support those things we believe to be right, but it frustrates me to see those with the most $$$ and loudest voice with politicians drive the ship under the cloak of representing the common hunter within a state. These points are merely an opinion and I am sure not popular with many of you, but the best part is we don't have to agree with each others opinions, but we should at least respect them.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-04 AT 03:17PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-04 AT 03:15?PM (MST)

The current LE system is broken ? these proposals at least attempt to fix it.

The number of currently available permits divided by the number of applicants proves that the current management and permit allocation system is broken! I have done a lot of data analysis. Do you realize that on average, it takes 41 (yes, forty one) years to draw a LE Elk tag in Utah. A new hunter with 0 bonus points will have to wait 81 years to draw a BONUS permit (granted, they might get lucky and draw one of the other permits)! Do the math, 14 years old when they can first apply + 81 years = 95 years old when they will get their BONUS permit (at least they should be able to get a special permit to shoot from the truck).

Now, why do those of you fortunate enough to be a live, hunting individual when this bonus point system was conceived (congrats, you now have 11 or 12 points) feel that you are ENTITLED to hunt trophy elk while new hunters are not (they will not live long enough to get a BONUS permit)?

By the way, I have my share of points and under the current system I WILL draw a bonus permit in the next 15-20 years!

In case you are wondering when you should draw your BONUS permit, here are the average numbers. There will be some variation depending on the unit you apply for. These #?s are now a year old, and slightly high because some people will stop applying and or die before they get their permit). Please note the trend! It will only get worse.

# of Points - Years to draw
10- 2
9- 6
8- 8
7- 15
6- 20
5- 27
4- 34
3- 44
2- 55
1- 67
0- 81
 
IDarcher, would you rather have the environmentalist and anti-hunter groups making the proposals? Hunters in Utah should be very thankful that the SFW is powerful enough to take on the other special interests, and give sportsmen their say. And of course their agenda is self-serving. The one's on the board are hunters, too. If they benefit, all hunters do.
 
nmtaxi- Your point of whether I would rather have environmentalists or anti-hunter groups making proposals is an itneresting one. First, I consider myself an environmentalist, but that doesn't mean I am anti-hunting, anti-logging, or any other type of activity, it merely mean I concerned over the management of our natural resources, but back to the point. In what way is political strong arming state wildlife agencies a battle against "environmentalists and anti-hunter" groups? And I strongly disagree that just because changes are made that might benefit one hunting group doesn't not directly benefit hunters as a whole. Do you have any feel for your opportunity as a result of SFW causes? Truly curious. thanks
 
By the Way SFW does have a lot of poor boys on the board. They do have a lot of rich boys too, but overall we need some of them, why is it that hunters need to fight each other. Lets go kick groups like PETA then when they are gone we can fight. You can all have a say and I really believe the majoritywill win when we all give our input. We can't all have it our way but we should all give input and sometimes we will win sometimes we will lose. I just don't think that this proposal is all that bad parts of it maybe, but the intentions seem good.
 
DAMN

I'M GETTING A LITTLE CLOSER,TO 95 YEARS OLD THAT IS!!!

THE SYSTEM SUCKS NO DOUBT!!!

BUT WHY CHANGE IT TO A SYSTEM THAT 'REALLY' SUCKS???

CHANGE IT TO A QUANTITY HUNT AND THEM BONUS POINTS WON'T BE WORTH THE PAPER THEY'RE WROTE ON!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT GIVING UP EASY!!!
 
It has been mentioned before that SFW has ONE seat at the table. Furthermore, it has also been stated that SFW is the only group that has asked for any input from the Sportsmen. SFW was attempting to get some direction from Sportsmen about Utah's elk hunting opportunities. As you can see from all the views expressed on this thread, opinions are varied.

IDHUNTER,

I would wager that if you were to talk with UDWR Director Kevin Conway he would tell you that he is very grateful that Sportsmen have organized. Just looking at all of the various desires, how can the UDWR satisfy everyone. Keep in mind this is just one topic which primarily involves hunters. Just imagine how hard it is for them when they are dealing with topics which are much more complex and involve more people, including those which desire to end hunting. SFW has done one thing that few have been able too; orgainze Sportsmen for a lengthy period of time. There are many other interest groups out there pushing someones agenda. I believe you should also be asking who is lobbying your state?

You asked how many SFW members hunt other states. I can assure you that many of SFW's members apply for and hunt in mulitple states; not becasue Utah's system isn't working but because they are dedicated to hunting. I also know that most of their members are average guys, that aren't wealthy but put their money, time and energy towards the things they value. I also know several of the SFW members in Idaho and Wyoming as well. They have recognized a need for Sportsmen to have a voice.

Are you happy with the way Idaho has been managing your mule deer herd? Are you happy with the way Idaho listens to hunters in your state? If you don't think Sportsmen should be allowed to manipulate the management of wildlife in Idaho, who do you think should be? Several Sportsmen have stated they are concerned over Idaho's mule deer management practices. The quality of mule deer hunting found in the SE region has definitely gone down hill a lot. Do you think the Sierra Club, Defenders of Wildlife, or the Mule Deer Foundation will tackle this topic? Sportsmen need to quit fighting amongst ourselves and realize who are the actual enemies to hunting, fishing, etc.

As I stated earlier, other interest groups are out there lobbying to accomplish their goals. You mentioned you are an environmentalist. I am a utilitarian conservationist.

In conclusion, SFW has never claimed to represent all hunters. SFW does represent their members, to the best of their ability. As you can see, this issue has several possible solutions. Those of you which don't like what SFW is doing need to either get more involved with the group or start you own organization. For the record, I have never seen anyone turned away from an SFW meeting. Furthermore, I have never heard of anyone not being allowed comment at their meetings. SFW is not for the elite, nor the rich; it is for Sportsmen wishing to preserve our heritage of hunting, fishing, and trapping. Get involved, make a difference, or set back and let others decide your future.
 
Bobcat I wish you were on this so called elk commitee. Maybe it would of took more than three hours to decide the future of Utah's elk herd.
I think their poll was biased and had canned answers. I don't think it represented the average hunter at all. I hope the DWR does their own poll and junks this one. Maybe they could do one of their own and put it in the proclamation and have you send it in with your app. Not everybody has access to a computer or is a member of the SFW. Nobody I Have talked to about this has even seen the poll. There were a couple of ideas the SFW had that might have some consideration but that is all they are is ideas not reccomendation's!
How can they say it is about opportunity when they keep increasing the cost of the tag and taking away the five dollar app. fee. All that does is give the wealthy man more opportunity and the poor man less. Is this discrimnation "YES". I'm sure the DWR did the five dollar app. fee to give more people an opportunity to put in for the limited entry tags. I believe their are enough land owner tags and other option's that can fullfill the greed of the rich. They are not the only ones who would like to hunt big bulls. Yes my wife and daughter put in with me on the big bull hunt and they would like to draw out as much as anyone else. The SFW act like the elk are their's, well I always thought they were the peoples animals. By charging $500 for a hunt and making it the premier hunt and by putting it out of the reach of the average hunter is again discrimination.

If I ever draw out I hope their is still some "QUALITY" bulls left out there.
 
WELL

I DON'T REALLY KNOW FOR SURE WHAT ALL'S GOING ON WITH THE SFW???

THEY'RE KEEPING IT FAIRLY QUIET!!!

ALL I'VE HEARD WERE RUMORS,bobcat DOESN'T SPREAD RUMORS!!!

I KNOW A FEW GUY'S THAT HELP RUN THE SFW AND THEY DO ALOT OF GOOD THINGS AND HARD WORK TO HELP US ALL,BUT I'M NOT AGREEING WITH ALL THEIR RECOMENDATIONS ON THE ELK,ESPECIALLY ON THE LE UNITS!!!

IN MY LIFE I'VE SEEN DEER HERDS THAT WERE ONE OF THE BEST ANYWHERE MISMANAGED TO SOME OF THE WORST IN THE WEST,I'D SURE HATE TO SEE THE SAME THING HAPPEN TO THE LE ELK UNITS!!!

I'VE SEEN A HEALTHY HERD ON THE SOUTH SLOPE GET NEARLY DECIMATED DUE TO GREED AND OVER HUNTING,RUNNING COW ELK HUNTS FOR 3-4 MONTHS CLEAR INTO JANUARY,WOW,THEM JANUARY KILLS OUGHT TO BE SOME TASTY MEAT!!!

LETS LOOK INTO THE FUTURE A LITTLE BIT,NOT JUST LOOK AT HOW GOOD IT COULD BE FOR (ONE) NEXT YEAR!!!

LET'S FACE THE FACTS,NOT EVERYBODY AND THEIR BUDDIES BUDDY CAN HUNT TROPHY ELK IN UTAH EVERY YEAR,EVEN IF YOU DOUBLED THE LE ELK PERMIT NUMBERS YOU ARE NOT SATISFYING ALL THE 'WHINERS' AND YOU NEVER WILL NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO,SO WHY CHANCE DESTROYING SOME PREMIUM LE UNITS???

THE DWR OFFERS SEVERAL HUNTS FOR THE OPPOTUNISTS,THERE ARE HUNTS CONTINUOUS FROM MID AUGUST AND OVERLAPPED THROUGH JANUARY,I DON'T REALLY SEE WHERE YOU CAN ADD ANYMORE???

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHICH COMES FIRST??? 95 YEARS OLD??? OR A LE ELK TAG???
 
Out of curiosity how many of you that do not agree with the suggested changes have let your family, friends, and fellow sportsman know about the suggested changes? Instead of just complaining about it here on this forum, please let everyone know and encourage them to voice there opinion to the DWR through an email or by attending a RAC meeting. We can not just set back and complain about things here on MM and hope that we are heard.

I do not agree with all the changes that the SFW is going too suggested. I do like the thought of having to pay for your tags when you apply for them in January. I think that this could greatly reduce the number of application that is put in each year. I just might be one of them. For the last couple of years I have been apply for a Bison tag and putting my wife in for a Moose tag just because it only cost my 5.00 bucks each. If I now have to come up with a grand to put in these tags I will not be applying for both of them next year.

I know that I am going to get a load of crap for this but I do not like the proposed changes to reduce the cost of a LE elk tag for the youth. I STRONGLY agree that we need to get more youth hooked on hunting. Too many of them are not staying with the sport because they are not having enjoyable experiences the first couple years of hunting. The problem with this change is the DWR can not give out enough tags to give the majority of the youth a good experience. I think the DWR would be more successful in retaining the youth if the general season elk tag was an ether sex tag for the youth. This would give the youth a much better chance at being able to pull the trigger and enjoy the rush of harvesting an animal.

Where do they come up with the data the a November hunt is so much more harder then a September hunt that they are willing to give out 80% of the tags for a November hunt? It may just be the way I hunt but I fell it would be just as easy to harvest a bull in November as it would be in September. Granted the bulls are taking in Sept. making it easier to locate them. By November the elk herds are head for there winter grounds. So the amount of territory that you need to cover to see an elk is a fraction of the size it would be in Sept. It is also much easier to locate elk in the snow. When you have a heard of elk crossing a hill side in to snow they stick out like a sore thumb not to mention it is much easier to tell how old tracks are in the snow vs. tracks on a dry hill side.

Last but not least, we have got to get control of the cost of a tag. This is becoming more and more a rich mans sport. At some time we have got to out a stop to this or all of us common folk will be looking for a new hobby. It is ridicules when a resident has to pay nearly the same cost as a non-resident tag for an other stat.

400bulll
 
I think it is important for everyone to realize that this is only one of the proposals. There are 15 or so representatives that each have their say in the matter. There are reps from each major group as well as the forest service, a member of the central(?) RAC, and a member of the Wildlife board. I know that the overall concensus is that we need to increase opportunity for sportsman. Time will tell what that means. This elk herd of ours is the pride and joy of the DWR and several states are looking to us as a model in building their herds. The DWR is not about to support or pass any changes that will decimate or kill off our trophy units. Will there be more tags issued? You can bet the farm on it. Will it reduce our units to 280+ bulls? NO WAY. There were more than 10 bulls killed in Utah that scored over 400 points. I would submit to you that a 400 bull should be a trophy rarely taken rather than the norm. When bulls of this size are taken this regularly it is obvious that we have a surplus of bulls that could be harvested. NO solution meets everyones needs. We need to look to the future and realize that our children have just as much of a right to hunt as you and I. This is an ugly monster that has been created and regardless of the changes that come about there are going to be people who are pissed! I hope that any changes put in place are slow and gradual so that nothing drastic happens. Good luck to you all and have a great day!

Chad

(By the way, the Utah Bowmens Association polled it's members with a mailer and I believe on there website as well. SFW is not the only group out there that "asked the public". Pick an organization that fits your needs and support them.)
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-04 AT 11:18AM (MST)[p]Some good and bad points. I don't like the pay for the tags up front deal. I feel that's a benefit to sportsmen to have it the way it is. I recall forums on here complaining about the Fish and Game doing this and making interest off the money. Not to mention Utah's LONG drawing process. Some of the other points are ok, but this paying up front things gotta go!
Later,
Elkster
 
My take on the SFW proposal is as follows:

1. Cutting the number of spike permits from 11,000 to 6,000, bad idea!! This would allow more bulls to reach maturity but at the same time greatly reduce hunting opportunity for general season hunters. If you cut spike permits by 5,000 and still maintain the same number of any bull permits you're eliminating 5,000 hunting opportunities for hunters. That would increase competition for the any bull tags. So then you either increase the any bull tag numbers thus decrease the hunt quality or you'll end up with all permits being entered into the drawing format. Utah would have no choice but to become a draw only state, thus decreasing opportunity.
2. Alternate spike units. Bad idea, too difficult to enforce.
3. Making the General Season Any bull units 4 point or better. This to me is a good idea. Over a 3 - 5 year period this would increase the number of branch antlered bulls. For units that are below elk population objectives, this would not be a problem. For units above herd population objectives more cow tags would need to be issued to lower the objective population. Over time this would lower the overall population in which case fewer cow permits would need to be issued.
4. License and tags fees to be charged at the time of submission. I'm all for this one!!!
5. $100 tag fees for youth. Great idea. In fact all tags should be less than a $100 in my opinion. Utah residents will pay non-resident fees to hunt in their own state. It's unethical to take advantage of sportsmen in such a manner.
6. Dividing up the anyweapon tags (65% of the units tags) into 80% November hunt ? 10% Oct ? 10% Sept. Bad idea!! In most cases those any weapon tags represent a small number. By dividing up an already low number of tags you'll increase the overall odds of drawing a tag, especially for the 10% category. That 10% may only represent 1 or 2 tags. 50 people applying for one tag, not good. We already have those kinds of odds. So nothing will be accomplished. Keep things the ways they are currently structured.
Moving the anyweapon hunt into November will have little if no affect on the success rate. Those numbers will still remain 90-100%. SFW proposes that by moving the date to November the success rate will decrease thus allowing more permits to be issued. According to SFW?s argument moving the hunt to November would in effect reduce the quality of the hunt.
7. Age Class management. Allocating permits as follows for 4 point or better:
North Cache 120-150 permits
Wasatch 900-1000 permits
Book Cliffs Road area 450-500 permits
Lasal Mountains 320-350 permits.
This proposal is ludicrous!!! I drew a L.E. Bull tag for the Wasatch Unit in 2003. Yes there is surplus of bulls on that unit. Yes more tags could be issued for that hunt. But 900-1000 permits will devastate the quality of the unit! The Wasatch unit has many tremendous bulls. Allowing 1000 hunters would basically whip-out those tremendous bulls. In a years time those units would be reduced to general season quality. I can't believe that SFW would even consider such an idiotic proposal. The same holds true for the other 3 units mentioned.

It's my opinion that all units should be managed for 5-6 year old bulls. The units that are currently managed for that age class are the one producing some of the biggest bulls.

8. I personally don't agree with designating units or a percentage of tags as premium tags. Especially charging $500 of such a tag. That in my opinion of unjust and simply wrong!!! $500 for resident tag or $280 for that matter. Hunting is becoming a rich mans sport. In the past, the average blue collar worker has been the ones supporting wildlife. Organizations such as SFW have caused a shift in perception. They swoop down upon the masses with their deep pockets and in cooperation with the DWR sell tags at astounding prices all in the name of ?wildlife management?. How much of those dollars actually goes towards wildlife management? Those auction tag numbers increase every year, thus increasing the odds of drawing a tag in the general lottery for the average Joe.

Overall the SFW proposal is a bad idea. They do have a couple good ideas but in my opinion they are simply trying to push their own agenda. They in no way represent even close to the majority of sportsmen in Utah.

My recommendation would be as follows:

1. Keep the current structure of 65% 15% 10% for L.E. Elk. Keep the hunt dates as currently structured.
2. Manage all L.E. Units for 5-6 year old bulls. This would allow for an increase in permit numbers but still maintain quality. Many units have bulls that are dieing of old age. Why not let a few more hunters harvest those bulls.
Units that are currently managed for 5-6 year old bulls could have an increase in permit numbers and still maintain quality. Units that are 7-8 year old should be reduced to 5-6 year and increase the number of permits.
3. Make general season any bull units 4 point or better. This would increase opportunity for hunters to harvest branch antlered bulls. At the same time keep the spike/L.E. units as presently structured.
4. Charge tag fees up front for the drawing. This would help reduce odds
5. Eliminate the ability for people to purchase bonus points. Bonus points should only be obtainable when a person is unsuccessful in the drawing. Again, this would help reduce odds. Too many people simply purchase a bonus point because they can. They have no intentions of hunting that year for what ever the reason (work, school, 2 year church missions, lack of money, anti-hunter building points, etc?). If you don't apply for the respective hunt you don't get a bonus point, period. That's the way it should be.
6. Require a minimum number of bonus points to be acquired before being eligible to draw a permit. I'd recommend 5 bonus points. This would help the current population of hunters that have been waiting for 5-11 years cycle through the system much quicker. Thus providing people just starting out a better chance of drawing a permit in there lifetime. This in effect would create a 10 year waiting period for those people that have drawn a permit, unless you reduce the current 5 year waiting period. It took me 16 years to draw my elk tag last year. I don't mind waiting another 10-15+ years for a chance at another great bull.
Along with this, I would still reserve ? of the permits for the people with the most bonus points.
7. Maintain the L.E. youth hunt opportunity as currently structured with the exception of lowering the permit cost to $100.
 
What about instead of 50% of the tags going to the people with the highest bonus points, all of the tags go to the people with high bonus points. Only fair in my mind.

Colorado does it and it works for them. Sounds like we are looking at the pay up front like Colorado does.

CS
 
I wonder if the SFW are reading these posts. Get a little debate going and some good ideas come flying out of it.

Wapiti, I agree with most of your ideas and think folks should kick them around a little.

I have one comment on your suggestion #6: Are you saying that those with less than 5 bonus points would still have to send in the $280.00 up front even if they know they are not going to draw? That would be a tough sell.
 
I served on the RAC for ten years and feel that I have a good knowledge of the elk situation. There are some points that the SFW proposal addresses that are very good (resting areas for spike hunting). But the proposal for submitting full cost for limited entry hunting is absurd. It solves nothing. The rich hunters will always be able to afford that opportunity. The $5 application fee is more realistic for the average hunter. Perhaps, limiting the number of hunters per credit card is a valid approach to the problem. I know about one hunter who puts in a large number of names for their own hunting opportunity (I suspect that is the concern and foundation for this proposal.) I put in four people on an annual basis: myself, my husband, and my two children. I'm one under max and my husband has max points now. The only reason he hasn't already drawn already is because one year we couldn't afford the full price fee prior to the credit card approach. (That was when they were only $80 each!!!) Now, we are looking at the real possibility of drawing a tag and we face the new change put in place this year for choosing your hunt. It really sucks that we've waited 11 years and our hunt of a life-time is restricted to one weapon. We are not in a position to hunt out-of-state or even out-of-the area. We have watched the elk in our unit and we have served on numerous committees to help the elk. We didn't get a survey from SFW to ask our opinions. When I read the survey, I could compare it to the non-hunting surveys when they suggest the answer by the way they ask the question. Let's re-do the survey and ask fair and unbiased questions. Let's include the average hunter and I guarantee that the results will be drastically different!!! We are closer than we've ever been to having quality and quantity. When things go wrong, greed is usually the root of all evil. We need to be patient and continue what we started. How about demanding that no one draws a limited entry tag until they have 5 or so points??? That seems more fair than demanding the full price and waiting six months for your money back for us unsuccessful hunters.
 
I use a credit card (when it has money on it!) And no. I can't afford to hunt what I WANT to hunt but that doesn't mean I don't want to bad enough, it simply means I CAN'T AFFORD it. Not all of us live and work on the Wasatch Front. Many of us live in rural Utah and work for minimum wage. We have a great lifestyle. We live next to the mountains and watch the wildlife instead of going to Lagoon or the Zoo. We leave our cars unlocked and we take food to our neighbors who are less fortunate. It is our choice and our life.

It's hard to watch you guys drive down into our little towns with your Dodge 3500 Diesel pickup pulling your fifth-wheel camper (with five tilt-outs) and a trailer full of Artic Cat 700 four-wheelers. But I don't want to give up my lifesytle, nor should I have to give up my love of hunting.

I've seen the November big bull hunts and it wasn't acceptable to me. The snow covered the valley floor and the elk were up to their knees in it. It was 100 percent success every year! (Of course, we don't talk about the wounding loss). What kind of quality hunt is that? You just as well buy a tag for a ranch and give the rest of us a chance.

I'm all for the $5 credit card fee. What makes you think the rich guy isn't still going to put in the whole family including neices, nephews, uncles, grandpas and cousins? He still can! The only thing you do, is cut me out. I WANT to hunt!! I save for Christmas, taxes and car repairs because I still drive a truck that is 15 years old!!! Give me a chance!!
 
One concern I have is with the having to have 5 points before you can draw. What happens to the young hunters in their first few years of putting in for the draws? This will just diminish the interest that we are trying so hard to instill in them to become hunters and sportsmen and women! Even with the current system, our youth hunters are looking at 15 to 30 years of applying before they have a reasonable chance at drawing a permit, if they are lucky at best! I agree that those who have been putting in for many years should have a better shot at the permits, but should we punish our youth for being youth??
I don't know the answer but if we loose the youth, what will happen to hunting in the future. The Anti's will have an easy ride to shut down the sport we love!
a*r

A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 
Maybe they should allow anyone under 18 to apply for deer, elk, antelope, etc. Let them only get 1 tag but increase their odds at getting a permit so that they can hunt something their first 4 years instead of building up bonus points
 
Had an interesting conversation with someone on the Wasatch front. I asked about the premiumn tags. He said thats easy, the people buying conservation tags want more opportunity. And the people connected with them want to be able to hunt all the seasons. So in a sense it is like giving them a mini Governors tag. Looks bad and smells bad.

Mulehound.
 
LET'S SEE

REMEMBER WHEN THERE USED TO BE AN OPENING DAY OF FISHING SEASON ON STRAWBERRY???

MAN I MISS THAT DAY!!!

BUT THE DWR OFFERED OPPORTUNITY,NOW EVERYBODY AND THEIR BUDDIES BUDDY FISHES ANYTIME THEY WANT,YEAR AROUND,NOW EVERYBODY'S HAPPY I GUESS???(MORE OPPORTUNITY)

WHEN I THINK OF OPENING DAY ON STRAWBERRY 30 YEARS AGO,THE SECOND THING THAT COMES TO MIND IS OPENING DAY OF ELK OR DEER SEASON,I ONLY HAVE TO CONTEND WITH 96,999 OTHER HUNTERS,ON THE YEARS THE DWR OVER SOLD THE PERMITS THEY WERE GIVING MORE OPPORTUNITY,OPPORTUNITY THE HERDS DIDN'T REALLY NEED TO SEE!!!

THE ONLY WAY I SEE YOU CAN SATISFY EVERYBODY IS TO GIVE THEM ALL OPPORTUNITY,MAKE IT A YEAR AROUND HUNT,ONLY SHOOT BIG GAME WHEN YOU SEE IT,PACK THE RIFLE FULLY LOADED,24-7,366 DAYS A YEAR!!!

EVERYBODY AND THEIR BUDDIES BUDDY WOULD BE TICKLED PINK FOR 1 YEAR,THEN IT WOULD BE OVER WITH AND YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT NEXT YEARS BATTLE PLAN!!!

YOU WILL NOT SATISFY ALL THE 'WHINERS' BY INCREASING THE PERMIT NUMBERS ON THE LE UNITS,THERE'D BE JUST AS MANY WHINING THE NEXT YEAR FOR MORE TAGS,CAN ANYBODY SEE THE LIGHT???

AS SOON AS THEY DESTROY THE LE UNITS,MY BONUS POINTS ARE GOING UP FOR AUCTION TO THE HIGHEST,DUMBEST BIDDER,I DON'T AND WON'T SHOOT A 'DINK' BULL ON A LE UNIT!!!

QUALITY STANDS ABOVE QUANTITY ANYTIME!!!

IF YOU HAD YOUR OWN COMPANY AND COULD HIRE 5 PEOPLE(QUALITY) THAT COULD DO THE WORK OF THE NEXT BEST 10 PEOPLE YOU KNEW,WOULD YOU HIRE THEM??? OR WOULD YOU HIRE 20 PEOPLE(MORE OPPORTUNITY) THAT COULDN'T OR WOULDN'T DO THE WORK OF 1 PERSON???

ALL I ASK FOR IS THE ANSWERS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat STILL WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO TURN THEIR LE TAG BACK IN,COME ON,THE OPPORTUNITY WILL BE BETTER IN FUTURE HUNTS IF THE MAJORITY GETS THEIR WAY!!!
 
mule hound

you are exactly right. If there is a premium hunt where the hunter gets to hunt all 3 seasons then that would allow a conservation group to bid on permits for that area and requeast that they are good for all 3 seasons. Thus catering to the rich once again.

I am glad a few of you see what is going on. because of certain people and certain groups, utah is becoming a state for the rich. and certain people want it that way. Thank goodness that there is enough good rational people out there that wont let that happen. What certain people want in essence is a dedicated hunter permit for elk on limited entry units. That is ridiculas. utah already got rid of that problem on deer and now the l.e. deer units are better because it is gone. Lets not give more opportunity to a few wealthy individuals when we can be giving it to average joe hunter.

please continue to see through the smoke screen of certain people and groups and realize that if average joe unites then average joe wins. dont be mislead into believing average joe hunter is being represented good right now, because he is not.

The dwr is trying hard but they are still fighting againts a few who believe they are the savoir of utahs wildlife. And these few individuals believe that average hunter owes them. How ridiculas is that?

Keep up the hope that some day soon average hunter will be heard and represented well.

yours in wildlife

tony abbott
 
More opportunity while maintaing current quality? Utah has approx 900 limited entry elk tags available to the general public.That number includes nonresident tags. Utah has 700+ tags handed out to Landowners, CWMU's, conservation permits and Gov tags. I got those numbers from a credible post on another website and no I havnt verified them. I wouldnt know were to start. Alot of those private tag numbers seem to be secret information. I understand that all those high price tags are available to everyone but you can see were the avarage hunter is losing opportunity in Utah. Every tag sold is one less in the general drawing. Every year there seems to be more conervation tags added and more CWMU's created. It's great for outfitters, guides and landowners. Seems that in Utah the people of influence have found a convenient way around the 10% nonresident Quota. Want more opportunity? Open your eyes. Fishon understands.
 
Tony:

Might you be able to be more specific about who "these few individuals" are.

I would have painted you quite easily with that brush. As the auctioneer at the SWF Banquet and head marketing guy for them you seem to fit that description quite easily.

As a group that derives it's livelyhood from the sale and auction of some of the said conservation permits, I'd suggest that your comments above are rather Clintonesque.

So which is it? Or rather who is it, specifically?

Cheers,
Pete
 
I have heard from reliable sources, that all the conservation permits that are issued, come directly out of the public permits that have been allocated for each unit. I don't know if the CWMU permits are the same or not.
What that means is that for every conservation permit auctioned or raffled at a banquet, that is one permit from that unit that the general public misses out on. I agree the conservation permit program raises a lot of needed money for wildlife, but there needs to be a limit on it or before too long they will have the biggest percentage of the permits the way it is going.
I was told that it was not general knowledge that these permits come out of the public pool.
Anyone else heard this??
a*r

A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 
Concerning the issue of requiring 5 bonus points before being eligible to draw a tag, Antlerrick has a valid point about maintaining the interest for our youth. I see it one of two ways:
1. Our youth currently have plenty of opportunity for hunting. They can apply for the youth hunt, or apply for a L.E. hunt just like everyone else and build points for the future. In the mean time if they are unsuccessful in drawing a tag, then OTC general season hunts still provide hunters regardless of age a great experience. I believe most young kids would be plenty happy with harvesting a rag horn, spike, or cow elk. It will build their interest, confidence, and skills for future opportunities.
I think it falls heavily on the parent and what you teach your children. If parents are telling their kids that they've accomplished nothing until they've killed a 350 bull, or if you instill in them that quality hunts are only available through obtaining a L.E. tag, then we are definitely headed in the wrong direction and I fear for the future of hunting.

2. If you desire to cater more to the youth then it's quite simple. If a young person applies for the youth tag and is unsuccessful then award them with a bonus point that can later be applied toward the L.E. drawing along with everyone else. That way they have a chance of drawing an excellent opportunity at a youth tag but at the same time can maintain pace with everyone else for drawing a L.E. hunt. In this scenario bonus points would not be used in drawing a youth tag, they can only be used in obtaining a L.E. tag from the general drawing.
 
Concerning the issue of requiring 5 bonus points before being eligible to draw a tag, Antlerrick has a valid point about maintaining the interest for our youth. I see it one of two ways:
1. Our youth currently have plenty of opportunity for hunting. They can apply for the youth hunt, or apply for a L.E. hunt just like everyone else and build points for the future. In the mean time if they are unsuccessful in drawing a tag, then OTC general season hunts still provide hunters regardless of age a great experience. I believe most young kids would be plenty happy with harvesting a rag horn, spike, or cow elk. It will build their interest, confidence, and skills for future opportunities.
I think it falls heavily on the parent and what you teach your children. If parents are telling their kids that they've accomplished nothing until they've killed a 350 bull, or if you instill in them that quality hunts are only available through obtaining a L.E. tag, then we are definitely headed in the wrong direction and I fear for the future of hunting.
2. If you desire to cater more to the youth then it's quite simple. If a young person applies for the youth tag and is unsuccessful then award them with a bonus point that can later be applied toward the L.E. drawing along with everyone else. That way they have a chance of drawing an excellent opportunity at a youth tag but at the same time can maintain pace with everyone else for drawing a L.E. hunt. In this scenario bonus points would not be used in drawing a youth tag, they can only be used in obtaining a L.E. tag from the general drawing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-04 AT 12:29PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-04 AT 12:26?PM (MST)

Right now 5% or up to 8 permits (whichever is less) is awarded to the qualified conservation group to raise funds specifically for that species. That is on a unit by unit basis.example

paunsaugunt deer. 150 total permits res/non.res x5%=7.5 rounded up to 8 permits for conservation permits. that comes right out of the draw permits.


I was part of a group (sfw) that marketed the permits very well. alot of money has been raised for wildlife because of the conservation permits.

Last wen. alan clark from the dwr came on my radio show, he is over the conservation permits. he said the dwr really likes the way the program is set up, then i asked him about the possibility of more tags going to conservation groups and he said live on air that he is comfortable with where the numbers are now and does not support an increase.

The reason I asked him that is because there is a proposal out there to increase conservation permits to as much as 30% of total draw tags. Now I want to help make sure that that will never happen. average hunter i believe can live with 5% of the total permits going to rich guy, but i believe that 5% is enough.

I was part of sfw and alot of the good they have done for this state for over 4 years, but some of there proposals including the elk proposal are part of the reasons I left.

We all need to be alittle more involved so that our voices are heard. I dont believe a group with 4,000-5,000 members in utah,or statistically 1% of the people who buy hunting and fishing licenses in utah represents the majority or the average hunter. Thank goodness that the dwr has some good people and that some of you are willing to stand up and fight for those that cant or wont fight for themselves.

yours in wildlife

tony abbott
 
Thanks for clarifying Tony.

Sorry for bagging on you. I wasn't aware that you had left working for the SFW.

Cheers,
Pete
 
Hey Tony,
Thanks for filling us in on the number and percentages. I agree 100% with you on keeping the permit number at around 5%. That is something we can live with, but 30% would be a sad deal for all of Utah's hunters. I'm sure it would raise a lot of money, but it would sure raise a lot of hell also. I also think that the high dollar conservation tags would probably loose a little of their value if there were that many more permits available to the elite few who can afford them.
a*r

A bad day hunting is better than a Good Day at Work!!
 

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