AZ Draw ruleing & our chances just got less now what?

J

JstMeandMyBow

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Wildlife News
July 15, 2004 Court ruling will affect fall draw for elk and deer A decision by a federal judge will affect impending fall hunt draw results for Arizona's elk and deer hunters.

U.S. District Judge Robert Broomfield, in a ruling issued July 13 in the case of Montoya vs. Shroufe, declared Arizona's 10 percent cap on nonresident hunt-permit tags unconstitutional. Broomfield also ordered the state to refrain from enforcing the cap.

Because the cap plays a role in the drawing system used to determine which hunters will receive a permit to hunt bull elk and antlered deer north of the Colorado River, the judge's ruling forces the Game and Fish Commission to find a method to distribute this year's fall hunt permits in a way that won't discriminate against out-of-state hunters.

The commission will consider its options in a special telephone meeting to be held Friday, July 16, noon, at the Wildlife Building on the Arizona State Fairgrounds. At the meeting, the commission will be briefed on the options and is expected to vote to direct the department how to proceed. The Wildlife Building is located at 1826 W. McDowell Rd.; members of the public who wish to attend the meeting are advised to avoid construction by entering the gate at 19th Avenue and Encanto.

Hunters applying for permits to hunt bighorn sheep, buffalo, antelope, turkey and javelina are not affected by this ruling.

Montoya vs. Shroufe began in 2000, when Lawrence Montoya, a self-described professional hunter from New Mexico who also runs a guide service, sued the Game and Fish Department claiming that Commission Rule 12-4-114E, which established the 10 percent cap on nonresident hunt permits, violated the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

In yesterday's ruling, Judge Broomfield agreed and ordered the department to immediately stop using or enforcing the 10 percent cap.

The department will keep hunters informed by posting news about the fall draw on its Web site, azgfd.com.
 
I am going to contact Montoya and ask if it was worth it? The thrill of the hunt has been replaced by the thrill of the DOLLAR$$$$ Thanks USO Outfitters for the fun.
Here's the contact info.
Professional Licensing Service
4204 NDCBU Taos, New Mexico 87571
(800)-845-9929
FAX - (505) 758-1744
[email protected]
 
Yep, my hunting buddy just emailed that to me. It really burns me. I was talking to a AZGF officer I know just this morning, and he said the results would be posted today, so I checked all morning, just to find this out.
 
If that ruling stands, other states in the 9th circus (Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Nevada, Californicate, Alaska and I think Montana) will be affected too! Also, the reasoning of his decision should apply to tag fees as well. Wait and see!
 
Just think of the poor guys out there that have been putting in patiently for years and years, building bonus point after bonus point, finally get drawn this year for the hunt that they have been dreaming about, and they pull it back so that they can redo the draw. I wonder if they are going to notify those that drew a tag but had to take it back?

What a bunch of BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Just think what the ruling will do to all other states that have a cap on out-of-state hunters. This will no doubt set precedent and impact all states that do so. I agree with someones statement that it all comes down to $$$.
 
That is a bunch of b.s. and I am a non-resident. This will make almost every resident of Arizona upset and they better not tell the guys who drew for resident but had to take the tag back because a non-resident now gets his tag. This could make out of state hunters a target of harrasment. Why cant they wait until next year to decide on this. Looks like the non-resident hunters odds will be more favorable and the residents will be getting the shaft. This would upset me also putting in for numerous years like I do in Utah and to have this dumped on me. I think it is only fair that the residents get the majority of the permits.Now we have to wait even longer to see who drew out for permits.
GOOD LUCK TO ALL ARIZONA RESIDENTS ON THIS ISSUE AND PLEASE DONT BURN MY HUNTING RIG TO THE GROUND IF I WAS TO DRAW THIS YEAR.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-04 AT 05:20PM (MST)[p]Thanks George, we all appriceiate your greed!



Wait, this could be good for me. I know that it is unlawful for a non-resident to apply for a resident tag, but is it illegal for a resident to apply for a non-resident tag?

If non-res are given 10% of the tags, I'll get drawn every year for my favorite unit. Last year ony 2 non-res applied for it and there were 200 tags!!!! Woo hoooo!!!!!!
 
WARBIRDUM,

I hope any self respecting hunter would not want to burn your rig down ( We will leave that to the rednecks!) Just kidding!
I run into non-residents when I am hunting and always lend them a hand if needed. This situation is not about non-residents its about the quantity. You are right in your post about residents getting the shaft, our draw odds for prmium elk units just went from bad to dismal. I hope AZAG& F has the balls to fight it.
 
they have been fighting it, i hope they keep fighting it though, i dotn know what good it will do....
im really pissed off now.
 
I know how you residents feel about this I will be very upset if this happens in my state. I have been applying to many years to make the odds any worse than they are right now for a good elk tag.And if it does pass it would surely affect all states I would think. Does anyone even have a clue to when this will be resolved. I need the results so I can plan my season like everyone else on this site that put in for Arizona.Seems strange to me that it has come up this late in the year and so close to the draw.I may be about the only non-resident behind you residents on this but they better be carefull for what they are hoping for because it could be his or her state next.
 
its all about money. this guy montoya could care less, he just wants his clients to have a better chance to hunt in az. forget about the people of arizona. hes in it for the money, its sad.
i wish there was a way to boycot the USO, but as long as there are people willing to shell out money for someone to hunt for them, there will always be a demand. right now rich guys across the country are cheering because now they have a better chance of getting a tag and hiring USO to come do their hunting for them so they can kill it and go home. Im in the process of writing a letter to USO, id recomend everyone else do as well.
also, if you can, show up to the meeting tomorrow.
az79
 
This is definitely bad news, and opens quite a can of worms. I wonder just how lawful it is to take a man's application money and then change the odds and the rules last minute. Had we known this was going to be the case would we have applied for the same units, or applied at all? It sure would have had a bearing on my decisions.
 
USO has a double standard. Its all greed with them. They think its discrimination about the 10%cap, But feel its OK in their own state to have an outfitter preference in the nonres draw allotment. I dont think it will be long before someone sues NM and MT about the outfitter preference on state and federal land if they think a nonres cap is discrimination. This could backfire for USO.
All states you should draw a tag with the same odds if you have the coin to use an ouftitter or not, and get your outfitter afterwards. We as traditional, ethical hunters cannot say hunting is only for the rich man.
 
BTW, You guys know that Valle Vidal tag I drew all on my own?? I get a call from some a-hole named Kaz or something from USO and leaves a message about how i should hunt with them because they have the equipment and horses and BLA BLAH BLAH. I literally yelled out loud FU## YOU and hit delete before the message ended.
 
MY WHOLE THING IS THIS.....HOW DOES ONE ##### TAKE DOWN THE STATE??? UNBELIEVABLE....YOU WOULD THINK OUR GOVT. OFFICIALS COULD DO BETTER THAN THAT.
 
Well, you just have to have faith in our courts. I bet nobody here knows what the arguments were. Anyway, it is out of our hands. The courts were set up as a check on rule by the masses, as popular vote can squash individual constitutional rights. Price diffetential is "discrimination" too, so jacking up nonresident prices violates the ruling too. In all reality, draw odds for the most "in demand" hunts will drop about 30% for residents and triple for nonresidents. Odds for those hunts will still suck. Most other hunts will not be affected, as less than 10% nonresidents apply anyway. It will not be the end of hunting either way. I guess it is wait and see now. Popular opinion does not matter to the courts, so not much going to meetings or complaining can do to change it. One way or the other, it will be interesting.
 
We all knew it was coming. The state should have settled with George at a true 10% cap for out of staters!!!!! Thanks Arizona Game and fish for watching out for our interests!!!!Guess there will be alot more money for new trucks and stuff!!!
Guess who's next WYOMING. Nevada caved already!

My View :( Mainbeam
 
Well what if out of State guides helped foot a healthy bill and the money goes to better the environment for the deer and elk. Water tanks ETC....

They should pay to play.

Boycott hunting New Mexico, and the guides!!!

Each State should be able to set their own rules. What about States that do not allow out of State hunters to hunt??

This is going to be a good one. All of the magazines are clamering for their front row seats!!

Let the games begin!!
 
Mainbeam, you are right. Taulman only wanted a fixed 10% at first and it would have been settled. As much as I despise the fact that he is starting crap in all other states, which I think is ridiculous, your commissioners are to blame in AZ. The system was flawed, many of us have been petitioning them for years, and noone on the board has "ever" considered our pleas. I feel for the true AZ hunters, but the current system is flawed, and should have been fixed years ago and this would have never been a problem..
 
Well I'm in the unlucky position of having to always put in as a Non Resident for a tag. We just got some Elk back in North Carolina but pigs will be flying before they move down to the beach. I'm going to have to say that I don't like what the USO crowd does....and the big money outfitters at all. I can, however, understand the Legal Argument and I have to say that some states are on Crack when it comes to charging a guy 800.00 for a tag on Federal Land and then only charge a local guy 35.00 . Once the gaps and proportions get so big....it invites a natural case for Discrimination. I do however thing non residents should pay more...and the taxpayers of the state should have a benifit in a lottery draw. If the states had kept the parity a little closer, I don't think this case would have ever made it this far.

Cheers,
Roadtrip
 
Whether anyone knows it or not, Mainbeam and Gamekiller are exactly right. USO offered to accept a true 10% cap a couple years ago and our idiot Assitant Attorney General declined in pompus form. Whether we liked it or not, we needed to change our system back then or be forced into it. Hopefully we make the AZGFD and Commissioners more accountable by publicly posting anything they can that we may be able to help from a grass roots level. Basically we were represented by someone who assumed what we would want without asking for public input. This angers me and I hope it angers everyone on this board. Nevada is done whether you know it or not and Wyoming will be in a couple days. UTAH, Colorado etc... are next if you dont hit up your respective commissioners, legislators, anyone who can make a voice heard............ Allen Taylor......
 
Who is USO to accept a 10% cap,, they are only interested in the dollars... In most hunters opinions that I have talked to non-resident should be band alltogether... whats most important here is the legitamate right to protect the hunting opportunities of state residents. I know that the majority of you would agree!!!!!!!
 
I am a non resident hunter and have been hunting Arizona since about 1989 mainly their archery mule deer. I've been putting in every year for those coveted tags both deer and elk and will gladly wait my turn. I think things need to stay the way they are. How much money is enough for these specific guides? States need to be able to regulate their wildlife how they see fit and shouldn't be run by the FEDS. This scares me of the consequences not only in Arizona but other areas and future rulings as well. This ruling if it holds up will be a major loss for the AVERAGE HUNTER and the future of hunting as a whole. It saddens me that money is slowly deteriorating the sport that we all love so much. This is a real sad sad deal if this holds up.
 
bigdeer- If you think you have a problem now, try to prohibit non-residents altogether, and I guarantee this will seem like a tea party. Federal lands are federal lands, plain and simple. Hunting is very different now. If the western states continue this protectionist path the a case will somedday make it to the UNITED States Supreme Court. Then who knows what will happen. Do you really want to go there? I still feel that the current system is taxation without representation in it's truest form. Taxes that I pay support a system where I am not equally represented.

The legion of AZ sportsmen complaining about having any less than the 97% of the draw they currently enjoy mustered a total of about 120 supporters at the commission meeting on Friday. These 120 true sportsmen are probably very close friends because they are probable the same guys that show up all the time, do all the good work for wildlife and the forests and are really the ones that deserve preferential treatment, not the rest that merely hold onto their coat-tails and whine from their keyboard.
 
This mess wont end in Arizona. Dont think that it will. This ordeal is all about the mighty dollar, so they will hit other states, YOUR STATE. Go to every hunting site you have access to, and send and email to everyone you know. Urge them to forward this message to everyone they know, so on and so forth. Using a guide is not a bad idea. Using US Outfitters or anyone associated with them is a bad idea. Do not use anyone having anything to do with US Outfitters. There are other guiding services across the country that are as good or better, so use them instead. As long as they have nothing to do with these guys. Or you can wait until they hit your state before you get mad and decide to do something.
 
I'm somewhat confused as to why the AZGFD.com site says: North of the Colorado River. What about the remainder of the state?
 
OK, here is something for everyone to chew on. These are quotes from US Supreme Court, Baldwin verses State of Montana. A landmark case. (someone should clue in the State of Arizona)

"A State does not "own" wild birds and animals in the same way it may own other natural resources such as land, oil, or timber. But as noted in the courts opinion, ante, at 1861, and contrary to the implications of the dissent, the doctrine is not completely obsolete. It manifests the States special interest in regulating and preserving wildlife for the benefit of its citizens. Whether we describe this interest as proprietary or otherwise is not significant."

"We conclude that where the opportunity to enjoy a recreatinal activity is created or supported by a state, where there is no nexus between the activity and any fundamental right, and where by its very nature the activity can be enjoyed by only a portion of those who would enjoy it, a State may prefer its residents over the residents of other states, or condition the enjoyment of the nonresident upon such terms as it sees fit."

There are other such quotes concerning the price differance between residents and nonresidents which this decision supported that the states were within their rights to charge nonresidents more.

Before anyone gets too excited, I would like to point out that USO sued under the commerce clause. It's my understanding that montoya claimed he was dealing in Trophy horns and hides that he would purchase for resell from his hunting clients, correct me if I'm wrong. Someone should point out to arizona's lawyers that this doesn't hold water as every hunting client would be in pursuit of those very same items to keep for himself. Montoya could purchase those same items anywhere in the USA that were legally for sale.

Unbelievable that Arizona lost this case. Can anyone say politics?
Or stupidity?
 
Don't know why I didn't see this link someone posted before.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/9th/0017082p.pdf

I stand corrected, but I still don't believe that arizona couldn't have argued this case better than they did.
It notes on this case that plaintiffs are professional hunting guides. This is their main livelyhood, not hunting for horns and hides for themselves. Pretty weak arguement. Anyone who applies for a license in more than one state could claim this. How would it sound to the judges if you made your living as an accountant or lawyer?
 
Whats done is done. Now Arizonans like myself can only wait to see what the final outcome will be. Then those of you that live in other states can wait for it to hit you. They are called US Outfitters, not Arizona Outfitters. They are trying to get more business, and this is their method. The more non-resident hunters in any state the better the chance of them hiring a guide. Now sit back and let this happen or: go to huntuso.com and get a list of their sponsors. Drop their sponsors a letter or email showing how you do not approve in their support for USO. This wont work unless we flood these sponsors with messages. Go to other hunting sites and post messages, and send email urging them to forward to everyone they know. Get the word out nationwide. Do not use US Outfitters or anyone associated with them. There are hundreds of guiding and outfitting serviced across the west that are just as good or better than these guys. Throw out some guides you have had a good experience with. As long as there are no connections to USO. How interested in hunting are your kids going to be if they can never draw a permit. Once you leave this world its one step closer to what the anti's want, too bad its not even an anti group thats going to bring this to an end. I know if you have time to sit here and read all these posts you can spare a few minutes to help get the ball rolling. This will also send out a message for any other yahoo that wants to attempt something like this in the future. It may make them think twice about it.
 
OK folks, sorry for my stupidity buy give me the details on this whole mess in a nutshell.

As I understand this, Arizona had a 10% cap on non-resident tags but now they have no cap because some court deemed it illegal? So now NRs and Residents have equal chances of drawing? And it may be illegal to charge NRs more for their tags?

Is this right or am I confused?
 

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