BLM Proposes Banning Recreational Shooting on Arizona Public Lands

1BigDeer

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BLM Proposes Banning Recreational Shooting on Arizona Public Lands -- Ironwood Forest National Monument

Friday, March 16, 2007

The 128,000-acre Ironwood Forest National Monument is under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and is generally opened to dispersed recreational shooting. A management plan just released for public review and comment is likely to change that if BLM's preferred management alternative (Alternative C) is adopted. Alternative C would close the Monument to recreational shooting. Hunting would continue to be allowed for the time being.

The proposed recreational shooting prohibition on 128,000 acres of public land in the Monument is simply a first step toward banning the discharge of all firearms for all reasons, including hunting. If the federal government can ban shooting on an area this vast and rural, it can and will ban shooting on other federal lands. They must be stopped now! Unfortunately, this is the continuation of a patter of discrimination against gun owners across the nation whether it's national forests or other public lands like BLM operated monuments. It's time that gun owners standup and be counted! Until recently, recreational shooting has always been recognized as a legitimate use of most public lands.

The plan contains 4 alternatives: A is the no-action alternative that would keep current management as is; B is the most restrictive management alternative and along with C, would close the Monument to recreational shooting; and D is the most access-oriented and would allow shooting to continue. To review the document go to http://www.blm.gov/az/LUP/ironwood/ironwood_plan.htm.

BLM has scheduled five public meetings to present its plan to the public and allow for comment and discussions. The meetings are as follows:

March 29, 2007: Tucson, Arizona -- Pima County Parks & Recreation, 3500 West River Road, 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.

April 3, 2007: Sahuarita, Arizona -- Sahuarita High School, 350 West Sahuarita Road, 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.

April 5, 2007: Chandler, Arizona -- Chandler Public Library, City Council Chambers, 22 South Delaware Street, 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.

April 10, 2007: Sells, AZ -- Legislative Council Chambers, Main Street, 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.

April 12, 2007: Tucson, Arizona 2:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. --Pima County Parks & Recreation, 3500 West River Road, 2:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m.

Comments on the plan are due by May 30 and can be submitted by mail to Mark Lambert, BLM Planner, at 12661 E. Broadway, Tucson, AZ 85748, or sent via email to [email protected].
 
//The proposed recreational shooting prohibition on 128,000 acres of public land in the Monument is simply a first step toward banning the discharge of all firearms for all reasons, including hunting. If the federal government can ban shooting on an area this vast and rural, it can and will ban shooting on other federal lands. They must be stopped now! Unfortunately, this is the continuation of a patter of discrimination against gun owners across the nation whether it's national forests or other public lands like BLM operated monuments.//


I respect the NRA on some things, but scare tactics like this make me laugh.
 
mtmiller;

On what basis do you feel that this would not be a continuation of closing off Federal controlled land to shooting. Past history shows that once the Feds inact a paticular control on a parcel of their land, they usually follow suit at other locations under their control. You may feel that it is a scare tactic, but I feel that time will show you very mistaken after it is too late to do anything about it.
I have met several district rangers that are in charge of Fed owned national forests, that have stated they were against firearms being discharged in a national forest and would like to see them banned like they are in our National Parks.
It is far easier to stop a new rule that may effect us, then it is to allow the new rule go into effect and try later to reverse it. Even you have to admit that out Fed. goverment does not move too fast on reversing bad or discrimination type laws that only effect a minority of us.

RELH

RELH
 
I was not able to highlight my main point from the quote.

This is the part I find ludicrous.
...a first step toward banning the discharge of all firearms for all reasons, including hunting.

You know some District Rangers that want to see the end of firearms on Federal pubic land. I work for the Federal gov't and have yet to hear or see anything similar to what you have seen. Maybe I have just been lucky.;-)

I am not familiar with the Ironwood area, but from what I quickly gleaned from the DRAFT, there are concerns from recreational shooting in the area. Although I am not intimately familiar with the area I would think there would be opportunities for some areas to be set aside to allow recreation shooting. I would hope if the public does not like portions of the preferred alternative, please make your comments to the BLM. If you think that part of the preferred alternative is in there by a conspiracy of the "Greenies" to end all hunting, then I don't think it is really worth you and me discussing this any further.
 
I also work for the feds...and I've never heard of any District Rangers wanting to ban firearm use on their districts.

I have seen a few places closed to shooting that were dangerous to other users, garbaged up by the local trailer-trash shooting team (you know the guys that shoot TV sets, wash machines, beer bottles, etc.), etc.

I've seen a lot of garbage left all over Arizona by recreational shooters...perhaps a better term would be recreational litter-bugs.

I dont blame the monument for wanting to stop recreational shooting...there are a TON of slob shooters in AZ. Absolute pigs, and it isnt just one or two "bad apples".

If you want to blame someone for more restrictions...blame the pigs that leave garbage all over the desert.

It isnt just recreational shooters either...quail hunters leave empty hulls all over the place.
 
QUOTE - "Although I am not intimately familiar with the area I would think there would be opportunities for some areas to be set aside to allow recreation shooting."

The reason this scares the he!! out of me are statements like the one above. Why does there have to be an area "set aside" for recreational shooting? Is there something wrong with the existing usage plan? Aren't the lands that we all pay for "JOINT USAGE"? Make no mistakes - this IS the first step to reduce shooting and hunting on Federal land. Wouldn't shooting during hunting be considered "recreational"? If so, the areas to hunt could be radically limited to "special use shooting areas only".

RELH said it great!
 
So much for the "Bureau of Land Management - Your Public Lands"
I guess, once again, Our "Public Lands" aren't ours and they are only public to certain people and groups.
--Bob
 
//Is there something wrong with the existing usage plan?//

Obviously. Did you read the Draft?

//Aren't the lands that we all pay for "JOINT USAGE"?//

Not sure what "JOINT USAGE" means, "multiple use"? If that is the case, no, not all public lands are for multiple use. BLM, yes managed for multiple use. That being said, not all uses are allowed on every acre of land. Just like some places you don't allow gas well pads, some places recreational shooting is not appropriate. Domestic sheep grazing is permitted, but not on every acre of public land. Do you agree with these last two examples?

//Wouldn't shooting during hunting be considered "recreational"?//

Yes. They call it hunting. If you find a definition where hunting is considered "recreational shooting" please put me in my place.

Educate yourself and check back.
 
I tell you what...I dont want a bunch of slobs slinging lead all over MY public land and leaving their tv sets, washing machines, home computers, junk cars, paper targets, beer bottles, empty cases, etc. etc. etc. scattered all over MY BLM lands. If people would clean up their messes, turn in the THOUSANDS of dirtbags who leave garbage on public lands, I dont think we'd even be having this discussion.

I bet I pick up at least a ton of garbage every year while out working or recreating on public lands. The BLM and FS would go broke if they had to hire enough employess to pick up after the slobs that use MY public lands as their personal garbage dump.

I'm flat sick and tired of it.

Then, when the agencies want to close down areas because of the problems created by "multiple use" everyone squawks like a bunch of mashed cats. Get off your a$$, take a roll of hefty sacks and start making a difference. Griping on an internet board is not going to solve or help the issue in any way.
 
the BLM stuff in my neck of the woods is some of the most trashed up stuff you'll ever see, doesnt suprise me they want to shut some of it down ,,, slobs ruining it for everyone ,,,,
 
Then why don't they say they are shutting it down due to the dirt bags that leave garbage everywhere. I am also sick of the garbage and believe me if I see anyone I will turn them in. I have even tried to find info in the garbage, letters, addresses, names in the back of backpacks ect. Maybe we should all come up with a better plan to protect our lands from trash then shuting them up won't be the issue. Washington has a program eyes in the woods, My husband AND i ARE looking into sounds like it teaches you how to find and turn in poachers, vandles, and trash leavers.
 
Hear-Hear, elkhuntingcouple. The solution is not to close the area, it's to hold those responsible for the damage. Do we close highways because idiots throw beer cans out. It is vital to keep open areas for folks to shoot, hunt, ride ATV's etc. If the feds can't enforce the rules don't penalize everyone by closing areas. The more laws enacted the fewer the freedoms we all enjoy.

RUS
 
MtMiller - I didn't attack you personally, I merely stated that your statement concerned me. I DID read portions of the draft. It seems to me that mining, grazing and development are the perceived big threats to the monument, not shooting. Alternative A is to do nothing, so it is an option. In alternative B & C the proposal about recreational shooting is to "limit risk to HAZ MAT and risk to public safety". Is recreational shooting, not leaving shot up litter, a HAZ MAT problem and a risk to public safety? I can't tell?

People who leave litter should all be dealt with and they are not all recreational shooters either I would bet.

If my incorrect use of the phrase joint use -vs- multiple use, offended you I apologize.

As populations grow and expand there will be no end to the challenges to our existing shooting and hunting rights. That is the heart of what I'm saying. Once again I believe we need to join together to protect what is important to hunters and shooters, not have the in-fighting that makes hunters and shooters so ineffective, traditionally as a political group.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-07 AT 11:02PM (MST)[p]1bigdeer,

You want me to defend the clowns that shoot beer bottles, tv sets, and then leave a big mess on MY PUBLIC lands?

I dont give a big rats arse how many of those idiots belong to the NRA or how many of them buy a hunting license.

I'm not going to "stick together" with these types just because they belong to the NRA, own a firearm, or buy a hunting license.

We need to kick the unethical, lazy, slugs out of our shooting and hunting sports before they ruin it for those that care.

If that involves in-fighting and hard feelings...tough.
 
I can understand both sides of this issue but I would rather see more shooting ranges built and used than see the trash keep piling up. This last Jan. I was on my way into one of my favorite muley haunts when I noticed a new sign before you enter the state trust land, " absolutely no shooting or atv's no trespassing without written permission" (I'm paraphrasing). I gotta be honest, I was glad to see it. I've been hunting this area during the late archery hunt for 4 years now and it has progressively gotten dirtier and more torn up by atv's. Every time I go in there to hunt I've got more and more bullets wizzing over my head because some jacka$$ doesn't understand the phrase "be aware of your target and beyond". Whether we like it or not the days of taking your chipmunk .22 out in the back 40 and popping some squirrles are over for a good portion of the population. With so many people using the same recreation areas you have to allow for some changes. Its just too damn dangerous in some places and unfortunatley there are WAY too many uneducated gun owners out there. I can take you to no less than 5 locations around Phoenix and show you accidents waiting to happen and some of the most dangerouse behavior you'll every see. I'm a former Marine. When I was in the corps one job I volunteered for was PMI, Primary Marksmanship Instructor. I can tell you now that there is no place safer on earth to shoot a rifle than on a Marine Corps shooting range and I saw safty violations ALL THE TIME. These were United States Marines! Americas finest! Now you expect me to trust any old yahoo that wants to go buy a gun and play quickdraw at a milk jug skylined on the top of a hill (seen it with my own eyes). Thats just the safety side of things, I could go on for hours concerning the trash.
The fact is, in some areas there are just too many people trying to use the same space and target shooting is just too damn dangerous for crowded areas.

Just my 4 cents
Donnie
 
BuzzH - I DO NOT expect you to defend any who litters or breaks any other laws. May be you missed this statement in my last post or I wasn't clear enough when I said "People who leave litter should all be dealt with..."

I never said we should defend anything other than our hunting and shooting rights and keeping access to OUR public land.
 
>I tell you what...I dont want
>a bunch of slobs slinging
>lead all over MY public
>land and leaving their tv
>sets, washing machines, home computers,
>junk cars, paper targets, beer
>bottles, empty cases, etc. etc.
>etc. scattered all over MY
>BLM lands.



The people that do that stuff are ALREADY BREAKING THE LAW. What are more laws and rules, which these losers have no respect for anyway, going to do except keep law abiding citizens from enjoying their public lands?

We don't need more laws, we need the Feds / locals to enforce the ones they already have. I don't see them complaining about the 100,000 backpacks and water jugs left in the desert by "people coming here to do jobs whitey won't do."
 
AZWalker,

Thank you for understanding the issue instead of blindly blaming the BLM for closing down areas where significant safety issues and littering problems are quite common.

Its funny to watch people rail against the BLM while sytematically living in denial about the problems associated with why the agencies are FORCED to take action. Can you imagine the out-rage that the local trailer trash would have if they "accidentally" shot each others kids? They wouldnt blame themselves for shooting toward a road at a sky-lined milk jug and blasting JR's noggin in two. Oh no, it would be the BLM's fault for not having restrictions in place.

I've seen the exact things you have, near Phoenix...I've seen the same things in Wyoming...in Montana...in Colorado...in Idaho. Things are a little worse near the bigger cities for sure, but surely not limited to AZ.

I also agree 100% with how to cure the problem...a controlled shooting range.

I dont have any problem with the BLM shutting down MY PUBLIC lands to recreational shooting where significant problems...safety and otherwise...exist.
 
Sorry 1bigDeer, if you prefer the "no action" alternative that is your right. From what I read in the Draft, I don't like Alternative A for management of recreational shooting. I also don't like the preferred alternative. I think it would be better to identify areas where other resources are not compromised, safety of other users is considered and washing machines can easily be removed after some slobs leave their mess.

Prohibition of hunting was in none of the alternatives. There are smart folks with the NRA that know this as well, but if they want to stir up their supporters and keep the money rolling in, they will call this a hunting issue.

BigDeer, I am glad you are participating in the decision-making on our public lands; although I hope you don't buy into everything the NRA spouts.

Though we as hunters need to stick together, doesn't mean we have to agree on everything.
 

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