The Health Care NAZI

2

202typical

Long Time Member
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3,123
If this don't scare ya nothing will!!!!


Clinton health plan may mean tapping pay

By CHARLES BABINGTON, Associated Press Writer Sun Feb 3, 11:40 AM ET

WASHINGTON - Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton said Sunday she might be willing to garnish the wages of workers who refuse to buy health insurance to achieve coverage for all Americans.

The New York senator has criticized presidential rival Barack Obama for pushing a health plan that would not require universal coverage. Clinton has not always specified the enforcement measures she would embrace, but when pressed on ABC's "This Week," she said: "I think there are a number of mechanisms" that are possible, including "going after people's wages, automatic enrollment."

Clinton said such measures would apply only to workers who can afford health coverage but refuse to buy it, which puts undue pressure on hospitals and emergency rooms. With her proposals for subsidies, she said, "it will be affordable for everyone."



?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-08 AT 12:06PM (MST)[p]OMG, the sky really is falling. . . 02, Armageddon will get you before Hilly does. . .
 
T,
Do you agree with Hillary that if you can afford Health Insurance that you be required to buy it? Not a sky is falling thing with me but it seems kind of UnAmerican to financially punish somebody for choosing not to buy something. Kind of a pretty large tax proposal.

Lots of better ways to get closer to universal care rather then force wage garnishment.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-08 AT 02:32PM (MST)[p]Given both Obama's and Hillary's proposals the one thing that is constantly missing are numbers. If Universal healthcare becomes a reality, what are the proposed monthly premium numbers?

Let's say it's $40.00 a month, why not contribute thru wages?

"The Health Care Nazi", only our very own partisan forum jester could come up with such a post title...well done 202. The reference of Hitler's reign and proposed Universal Healthcare go hand in hand.

I don't get to chose to contribute to social security, disability, state, or federal taxes. "If" since we don't have real numbers, the payroll deduction could save Americans and small business thousands annually, ensure the health of our nation, and not allow Insurers to cherry pick coverage, who cares.

It would be better for all of us to know what kind of numbers we are talking about.
 
I know its hard for you scocialist to grasp. Forcing Americans to pay is just wrong. I know Hill is your girl Foreskin so I can see your biased.

Garnishing our wages is wrong, wether its FICA or SOC or what ever. It all needs to be done away with. It is simple minded thinking like "oh whats the big deal" that gets us where we are today.

No T the sky is not falling. Your girl has not been elected yet!

Socialised healthcare of any form is wrong.




?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
FTW,

Since HIPAA Cherry Picking is no more. In addition do you truly believe that the cost would be $40 a month? I pay $680 on top of the $625 my employer pays.

Anyone who believes that universal care is going to solve all the problems of health care is an idiot. It will only make us trade for different problems like rationing and access. If you also believe Docs, Insurers, Hospitals and the government are going to allow less money to be put into the health care system you are sadly mistaken.

Just so I get this straight, you have no problem with the government forcing an employee to give up money to buy something they have decided they did not want? Find a Constitutional foundation for that arguement.

Nemont
 
Hillary is just standing up there making another hollow promise. Nemont hit the nail on the head there's no way the medical community and the drug companies many of which are writing big fat checks to Hillary's and other politicians campaigns are going to let that happen! Don't you think if this was possible both parties would have stood up there and told you so! There isn't a politician alive that wouldn't be throwing that card out there if it was possible!
 
Proverbs 14:31
He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.
 
Bingo, nemont and boskee.
There is another post today on the hildabeasts "experience" and the shining fact that her only "real experience" other than enabling a cheating husband is her corporate connections theough her lawyering. She was beholding to them back in the 80's just like she will be obliged to spread the mayo for the medical/insurance business if she gets the elected...
 
T that has no relavence what so ever in this thread!


?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
Mark 10:21
Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
 
Again means nothing in this thread. NOTHING!



?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
Ephesians 4:32
Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
 
TF, does any of those scriptures you quoted, that you don't believe, say it is the governments job to take from one and give to another, or does it say that indivuals should do it willingly? Let people keep more of their own money and they will step up and take care of those you 'act' concerned over. I know you have more faith in the government than indivuals, but history shows that is unwise!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
1 John 3:17-18
If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-08 AT 03:05PM (MST)[p]Nemont do you really feel cherry-picking doesn't exist? That statement reminds me of when Ed Meese stated, "There are no children in America that go to bed hungry."

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?DR_ID=41860

I stated quite clearly without knowing the numbers it's difficult to intelligently discuss.

Like all new programs I'm sure there will be problems, problems that don't overshadow the importance of a healthy populace.

Boston is currently a test state for mandated health insurance. According to 202 the GOP's Nazi candidate Mitt Romney's health mandate will reveal pitfalls where they exist on a state level. There are numbers from Boston's health mandate, but who knows if those are close to any numbers for a national mandate.

If you want to wrap yourself in the constitution and live in the late 18th century that's fine. I'm all for using up Brian's entire band width to discuss our 21st century society vs. strict interpretations of the original constitution. Times change and our constitution evolves with those changing times.

I would hope that we could agree that safeguarding the health of our population and addressing the burdening escalation of health costs is important.
 
T, Maybe we should just follow the biblical form of health care.

James 5:16
Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

1 Timothy 5:23
No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.

Mark 6:56
Wherever He entered, into villages, cities, or the country, they laid the sick in the marketplaces, and begged Him that they might just touch the hem of His garment. And as many as touched Him were made well.


If we just had enough faith we would be healed. Do you believe that?

Nemont
 
FTW,

First off there are two market places for private insurance. The individual market and the group market.

HIPAA has made the group market guaranteed issue.

The individual market is high regulated and in EVERY state there is a guaranteed high risk pool for those who cannot buy insurance on the individual market.

If we are going to chuck the Constitution of the debate that is fine with me.

Let's debate health care reform because health care financing is what I do every day of the week.

A health population requires more then simply allowing access to health care. It requires that the population want to do their part. The population doesn't wish to do their and the government is subsidizing unhealthy choices. So we are going to pay taxes to subsidize bad unhealthy choices and then pay taxes to further treat those bad choices.

The last time government stepped into help was a result of Hillary Clinton health care task force. The result was a law called HIPAA, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act which was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on August 21, 1996. HIPAA was the probably one of the costliest bill ever passed. It did have noble intentions and was meant to "help" get and keep more people insured. It has had the effect of costing the system BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars in compliance costs and administrative expense. It has cost not only insurance companies to doctors offices and hospitals an enormous amount of money all which has to be paid by patients.

Universal care doesn't address those issue at all. In addition there is no number out there that comes close to the true cost of providing universal care. $110 billion that is used by Hillary doesn't force coverage and does not include the cost of other government health programs: Medicare, Medicaid, Indian Health Service, Tri-Care etc. All of those programs have funding issues that will have to be addressed. Go ask your Doctor if Medicare reimbursement comes close to paying what it costs to do business? They want to use half the care and only pay 30% of the bill.


Nemont
 
I won't comment on the church chat because I don't understand it but how about this, if you refuse to pay your affordable health care premium then you've signed a waver saying the tax payer is no longer obligated to pay your bills and the health care provider is not obligated to treat you. we require liability insurance on vehicles why should I pay the tab on someone who doesn't want any health insurance? withholding the premium is the only way some people would ever pay, how many people do you think would just cut a check for their taxes on April 15th if that was the way we did it?

Some of you freak out that you might have to pay for someone elses health care then you freak out that somebody may be required to pay their own insurance. nothing is going to please you.
 
You make absolutly no sence Dude.
You must want a nanny state.
If thats what you and T want then move to Canada or France.
One of my best friends is a Canadian. One of the main reasons he moved to the US was because of the lousy Health care and no oportunities to better ones self. The outfitter I go with Bear Hunting in Saskatchewan gave me an ear full on just how screwed up scocilized medicine is in Canada.

Scocialism has been tried over and over and it does not work. The American system works and is the best on planet earth. Period.

I have an employee from England. Says the same thing about their scocialized system. IT SUCKS!!!!!!






?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
Dude,

I am not freaking out, I am already paying it. Every time the government has stepped into the health care arena to "help" it has cost more. Look at mandated coverages, every state has a list of mandates that must be covered, regardless of whether or not the customer wants or needs those coverages.

There is a fairly signficant difference between liablity coverage on a vehicle and universal health care coverage. For instance I can buy unisured/underinsured motorist coverage for a couple of bucks a year; that way I don't really care if you have coverage or not that is your choice.

In addition there is not evidence that says universal care leads to better care, if that were the case nobody in Canada would ever travel south to recieve care at their own expense.

I am not against caring for my fellow man and my neighbor. I also am not against a healthy population but there are better ways to pay for other then garnishment of wages and additional taxes.

Nemont
 
I'm a brother in need. T please send me your D-300 and your Nikon 200-400, it's only right that you help your fellow man.
 
Ok here is the deal , health care is costing us big time I think we can agree on that and it's predicted to get worse. our companies can't stay competitive in a world market and our economy is going to have a lean spell that's pretty much a given. so, if you don't like anyones Idea then what's yours?
 
I've been trying to find ideas to help solve the high cost of health care. Forcing people who can afford to pay insurance, much like people are forced to buy auto insurance to drive seems fair to me.

If someone works and spends his paycheck at the Casino, then goes to the emergency room and says he's broke and has no insurance, that's OK? Raise my rates, I'll pay for him.

I thought this IS about promoting personal responsibility.

This whole health care thing is depressing, so.....

Proverbs 31, vs 6 and 7
"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy heart. Let him drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more."
 
Common Sense 4:18

" If eachith payith there own damn wayith, man will beith just fine!!!"



Pretty simple is'nt it ? You guys keep hamering each other over who's gonna pay, why dont you take a look around and realize that if everyone who's capable got a job and started paying taxes instead of living off them, and all the illegals would start paying taxes as well instead of sending their paychecks to mexico I think it would all work out just fine.
 
Hey T ? you taking up my hammer?LOL

Luke 20:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar (the government) the things which be Caesar's and unto God the things which be God's.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-08 AT 05:31PM (MST)[p]Hardway if you can find a way to get the dead beats off their butts I think you're onto something, we wouldn't need the illegals in the first place if all Americans pulled their weight so that's one problem solved in the process. problem is the chances of that happening are as great as 202 coming up with a solution rather than just blaming libs for the health care crisis.

The thing that has to accepted is we ARE paying for the health care of those who can't or won't pay. so the question is how do we pay the LEAST amount possible? forcing everyone to pay insurance sounds as good as anything I've heard yet, 202 doesn't like it but what's his idea? just whine it seems.
 
Dude.... I've figured it out. Just vote for Huck and he'll get rid of the IRS and then we'll all be paying our fair share of taxes. Even the illegals.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-08 AT 06:54PM (MST)[p]You guys are funny. You are pissing your pants because the Chinese and Middle Eastern Mullahs are bankrolling us because we are spending beyond our ability to pay. Yet you want to turn over to the government 1/5th of our economy to spend more borrowed money on.

The government does not have a good record of containing health care costs or health care spending. Look at medicare and the projections that they have. In addition when the government attempted to reign in medicare costs by freezing reimbursement levels the docs and hospitals flexed their political muscles to get more money put into the medicare budget.

The VA has gotten somewhat better but they have closed facilities and are always in need of more money.

Indian Health services is a joke that does more harm then good. They do a decent job of day to day care but contract health and acute care are rationed as funds become available to pay for care. They are habitually short of staff and rely on foreign born docs to staff their facilities.

Tri-Care is a difficult system to navigate and has some gaping holes in alot of areas of the U.S. They also have a lack of funds and are into the rationing of expensive care.

Medicaid is not very popular with providers especially dentists due to the low reimbursement levels and the slowness of getting paid.

The government has a rather poor record of providing care within what their budget authority is regardless of the program it runs.

Nemont
 
Hardway, we can't abolish the IRS! That would cause unemployment to reach the 20% mark!

Oh wait, we can use them to harvest the lettuce and strawberries this summer!

I like the idea!

Eel
 
Now you're starting to sound like 202 with all the things we can't do, what can we do? nothing is not an option.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-08 AT 09:50PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-08 AT 08:59?PM (MST)

Nemont the threads are bouncing so I didn't see your response right away. Sorry bout that.

Before we start talking about HIPAA and it's cost, why was HIPAA enacted in the first place? It was enacted due to corporate blood thirst and a complete lack of humanity for those most in need. Screw over our own ailing citizens and for what? Shareholder profits, numbers on a friggen spreadsheet!

How many U.S. citizens died over the years improving other peoples portfolios before HIPAA was enacted? Was it 10,000, 50,000, 100,000? Certainly way more died than in 9/11 that's for damn sure.

So yes, I am familiar with HIPAA and it's guidelines, even I have to sign-off on HIPPA confidentiality forms since a division of my company does medical deliveries.

In the end we all benefit from HIPAA in multiple ways, leaving the costs for compliance and administration a non-issue. We the taxpaying public had to initiate HIPAA to protect ourselves from our own damn predatory insurance carriers! Ain't that a beotch!

The fact is we all benefit from EMR's, so if hospitals have to upgrade hardware and software so be it. Welcome to the 21st century.

Enough HIPAA!

It's true the road to hell is paved with good intentions. However our current systems are so totally screwed up and out of focus something needs to radically change.

Universal healthcare doesn't address medicare, medicaid, Indian health concerns etc. But it does address skyrocketing health costs, improving our health as a country, and most of all our economic well being. It will allow radical changes in workers compensation reform and should reduce S.D.I. thru preventive medical care.

The beginning of a 10,000 mile journey starts with the first step. Americans should not live in fear of personal economic collapse should their child, wife, or parent fall gravely ill.

A healthy population will eventually bring down the costs to Medicare and Medicaid. The "ends" so to speak of cost savings will be realized within one generation.

As for Indian health concerns, states which hold Indian gaming compacts should have addressed this issue long before they agreed to put licensing on the ballots. Greedy politicians, greedy tribes, just like medical insurance carrier stockholders only cared about lining their own pockets.

For Universal healthcare to work successfully a multitude of current policies need to change. Immigration, tort reform, corporate reform, and removing a fear based atmosphere of governmental failure. Screw Canada and the European countries, since when do hold these countries as measuring sticks.

Boy, I'm really tearing it up aren't I? Deep breath!

Look, if we put our minds to it we can design a healthcare system that will be the envy of the world. What better gift can we give to the generations to come? To live in the greatest nation on Earth and to never worry should your loved one become ill. We need to give ourselves a swift kick in the ass and remember why we are a "Can Do" country. Instead of drowning in pessimism, cynacism, and apathy.
 
FTW, I may not agree with you very often, but I have always thought you had some sense about you. Now I am not so sure, you put more faith in the government and cheapen your stance by calling someone a facist. I KNOW you can do better than that. Tell me when in the history of the world has a society done better when handing over control to the government and taking it away from the private sector? When we trust the governemnt more than the people, we give up liberty. Nothing is more basic than that.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
I am off of this thread. I have never been called a fascist nor do I believe that I am. I do not worship at the corporate temple as accused.

Nemont
 
Pro when you're right, you're right!

Nemont that was over the top and I really do sincerely apologize. I do value your input and our cyber-relationship. I got a little overheated and want you to know I really do feel bad for that slighted remark it was undeservant and out of line.

I let my emotions get the best of me, I am very sorry.
 
Does any dem see a problem with forced wage garnishment for not buying health insurance.

Can you imagine...
The reason oil is so costly is we dont produce enough. We dont produce enough because people dont buy enough. So I propose that we garnish dems checks who choose to ride the bus that runs on natural gas to subsidize oil so we can help the oil companies out with their oil production woes.

Give me a break.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
AA, we are going to get universal health care, 50 million people dont have any, and it's about time we balance the system instead of allowing people to drive up MY health care by allowing them to plug emergency rooms when they have a cough. The details of any plan are critical. I dont really know enought of the specifics to know what plan is the best, I think this issue really is better left to the guys like Nemont and other's who really understand it. I know this much, the nation wants it, and it's been on the congressional agenda since at least the early 60's it will happen no matter what party you support. Heck, even your man Romney put in place a healthcare programs, it dont work very well but he did it. We should take the best of all the worlds systems and build one that will work for the USA. Complaining about wont get it built. . . it will however make you feel better and that's important, your mental health is important to you physical wellbeing. . .

I know what I want to pay my share, I know that the people of this country can and will have affordable health care. I know there are problems, but the system we now have can/wont last.

In fact, even doctors would like to see some reform, they spend way too much time dealing with paper work and the 50-60 different programs that they have to understand in order to get paid.

I want choices, and in this country no matter what program we get, individuals will have choices. If youre rich, you will, as you now are able, buy whatever coverage you need. Our nation must develop a better system, it can and we should see to it that we do and that is runs smoothly, effectively and efficiently.

If youre so fired up about it, you should step up and help build it/run it.

I spent many years doing just that. I found a couple of issues that burned me up and ended up clear out in WA DC running the programs that I complained about. Truthfully, its an eye opener but it also is the only way to make change. . .Just do it. . .
 
First of all I am not convinced there is a Health Care CRISIS as Dude put it. A lot of this is media hype in an election year. I feel the best aswer is to let the MARKET work it out. Get rid of the governemnt regulations and let the insurance companies fight for those customers that need insurance. Tom Tancredo's idea of AHP's is one solution or some form there of. Fix imigration and tort reform and that will help as well. Putting our healthcare in the hands of the pigs in washington will have dire consequences. Just take a look at what they did with social security and the IRS. Come on you guys can not be serious about letting the Dems gain control of our health care. Pull your head out!!!!




?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
As I said 02, it looks to me like that no matter what you get with leadership, youre going to get some form of government managed health care. this is an issue that crosses party lines and just like with boarder security, the guys that dont commit to changing the system for the better wont get elected.

So, bend over and get ready to get what's coming to you. . . ;-)
 
First they give them Welfare ( which when not abused is a good thing), and then they want to give them health care. Where is the incentive for people to go to school or get a job and better them selves. All that socialized health care is going to do is make the lazy people more lazy.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-08 AT 07:33AM (MST)[p]Hey blue, and other's that have your moral fabric (no disrespect), some people dont ever want to do anything more that breath, and who am i to judge that? Moreover, youre not going to inspire the people who just dont care, to go out and be productive. I came from dirt poor, family scraped by on almost no money, i ate free school lunches and had to stand in line to get the tickest, I managed to go a long way in life without anyone motivating me to compete or improve myself, some of us have it some dont, you cant change everyone. . . I also dont think we can or should let americans fall through the cracks. We cant do everything, but we sure can have a health care system that takes good care of out children and our elderly. . . Dont you think?
 
47a884e725165cca.jpg
 
202 the health care isn't the crisis, paying for it is. at what point when our companies in this nation can't pay the cost on their employees does it become a crisis? it's already hurting them and some are cutting benifits. with many baby boomers now going on medicare and the fact they're living longer the government expects huge cost increases, rather than trying to head this off Bush just cut money from these programs. define what a crisis is and at what point do we admit we have a problem.
 
Kinda reminds me of a guy I know who bellies his kids up to the public hog trough for free lunch at school all summer long while the kids aren't even in school. Then you learn a short time later that he's taking a week long cruise in the Bahamas. Just something that does not feel right considering I'm not bellied up to the free cheese and I cannot afford to go on a cruise. Never been on a cruise, but I guess if I could get the Government to sub my needs, I could afford a few wants.


Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. --Ronald Reagan
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-08 AT 10:28AM (MST)[p]
Solutions

I wonder how many realize that 25% of the uninsured are eligible but choose not to enroll or perhaps don't know they can enroll in medicaid or SCHIP? That would wipe out 11,150,000 uninsured right there just by taking advantage of current programs.

Of the 44.6 million unisured 19% live in household making 300% or more of the Federal Poverty Level. That is another 8,474,000 who live in households where insurance becomes much more affordable yet choose not to purchase it. Affordibility is still an issue with these households and access is an issue. Perhaps a subsidy to assist in purchasing health insurance from the private market or from their employers.

Of the remaining 56% or 24,976,000 of the unisured approximate 5 million are illegal aliens or non citizens ineligible for coverage. (How many advocate universal care of illegal aliens? Just wondering)

So roughly 20,000,000 American citizens need to be given coverage through some kind of system. I would say a public/private partnership would be the way to go. Require a minimum basic and enhanced insurance plans to be guaranteed issue to anyone not currently covered through the above, like they do with SCHIP eligibility, so you don't get people dropping their current coverage to get on this plan. The government would pay the premium on a sliding scale based on income and the carriers would take the risk. The government would limit the both the upside profit and the down side risk through a reinsurance agreement with the carriers.



Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-08 AT 10:19AM (MST)[p]Wow, 1911 how bitter. I dont like people that take advantage any more than you do but I wonder if youre jelous or worried that youre not getting your share? I'm just proud to do what I do, and if some people take advantage of the system so be it, that's the price we pay for freedom. There always are cheaters, should the entire society pay by not getting the services they deserve and pay for, because of a few people that take advantage of the system? that's a doomsday, go no place stagnant platform as true is it might be. . .
 
Come on now Nemont, FTW said he was sorry.

I am at a lose as to why anyone would intentionally turn more control over to the suits in DC. What EVIDENCE is there that they will take good care of us, nad spend OUR money more wisely than we do? Is it Katrina? Maybe it is the war the left bemoans the cost of? Maybe it is the effecient way they build roads/schools/government buildings. Or is it the way they ensure no wasteful spending on education? This IS a classic example of the 'sheep' willingly handing over their freedom at the expense of WHAT? Giving up control is giving up FREEDOM! Spin it any way you want, but it is what it is.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
It is a shame a Facist can not be right in the eyes of the liberal elite know it alls on this site. LMAO

Yep 20 million we tax payers have to insure, oh yea Dude thats a huge crisis.

Media driven crisis. Just like aids was, bird flue was, sars was, iraq was and the list goes on and on and on and you guys continue to feed like its the gospel or the satanic versus in your case Dude.



?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
(How many advocate universal care of illegal aliens? Just wondering)

just wondering how many people like to truly pay the full cost of emergency room visits and continue to substitue that system for a real health care program.

I say no illegal should get the same as the citizens, but we must do something to fix the problem, we can not just close the doors on the people that are here. . .

If you believe we can or should, please give us an outline of the plan and how we would pay for it. . . .
 
Pro,

In a perfect world I agree with you. In the imperfect world of health care financing there are some obstacles to overcome. One is that Washington is already responsible for 50% of all the health care spending going on out there. Two is that that 50% greatly influences what happens to the other 50% of spending.

The only way, IMO, to come to some happy ground is to work with the government through the ways I have suggested.

I will remove my comment from the other post.

Nemont
 
TF good for you, you are the exception (sp) to the rule, there are not many people in those circumstances that you mentioned who have risen above them. I guess my only complaint is there are too many people who want free $h!t and they dont care where it comes form just as long as they get it and don't have to do any thing for it. I enjoy my job and I enjoy working, but why should I work my butt off so some lazy S.O.B can sit on his @$$ and get welfair and free health care. And don't start quoting scriptures I believe the lord expects us to be industreous and do all that we can do and then if we need it we should ask for help. I don't care who you are if you really want to you can do anything.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-08 AT 10:41AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-08 AT 10:40?AM (MST)

T,

How many people with IHS do you see going to the ER for something their grandmother used to care of with chicken soup?

Universal care won't get people to stop going to the ER. The issue of illegal aliens and health care should be dealt with first by better policing and enforcement on the border. Secondly, They should be required to give proof of their status at the ER. It sounds cruel but if illegals are affecting the access to health care then that care has be restricted to only life and death things. Show proof of status, or go without, and be subject to being arrested and deported.

With a health care affordibility crisis going how do you explain that over 11,000,000 American citizen have somehow not gotten enrolled into programs they are eligible for?

Of the 20,000,000 living below the affordibility threshold and unable to get insurance through their employer there are lots of different funding available. Look at the tobacco settlement, we could tax fast food places, put a fee on all saturated fat foods, etc.

Of the 19% who live in households at or above the 300% FPL just a little help would push them into private coverages.

Rather then reinvent the system why not work harder at using the system we have more efficiently while maintain choice?

Nemont
 
T,

Not so much jealous as angry that my pockets get dipped into taking care of someones needs so they can they buy what they want. I'd give the same analogy to the person who uses government assistance to buy their milk, bread, meat, ect., then pull out their own billfold to purchase a case of Miller and a carton of Camels. I think it is a clear moral wrong for someone to dip into my pocket when any of the aforementioned things are going on. While the feeling may be "so be it" for you, I don't feel the same. I work hard for my money and when it is abused I get annoyed. Interesting that you take the time to call me bitter because I am concerned about the fraudulent use of my tax dollar yet you make no such comment about the one making the abuse. Not only is that attitude a slap in the face to those that pay for the welfare, it is a slap in the face of those who have a legitimate need for it.


Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. --Ronald Reagan
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-08 AT 11:01AM (MST)[p]I'm slapping myself right now. slap slap slap!!!

As I mentioned, I was poor and I'm afraid to think of what my life would have been like if I had not had a good lunch at school. I always felt bad having to stand in line for lunch tickets. It made me feel much less of a kid than my class-room peers. Everyone knew who got free lunch because we lined up in the lunch room to get the free tickets. they checked to see that we were on a list and gave us a ticket.

I am willing to help pay for other children who have been subject to similar situations, keep in mind, children DO NOT HAVE a choice, and most, if given the option will go hungry before they say much about it. I think it's horrible for kids to go without a good hot lunch, I'll slap my face and my ars all day long to support subsidized food programs for our kids. Hell, we subidize every other industry in the country, including farming, so why not our most precious? I'm getting away from the point.

Today i'm no sitting on my butt, nor are ANY of the 8 guys I grew up poor with, we all are now paying our way and we all have kids and are raising them to be good solid, kind citizens with a sense of civility that will help them become honorable members of our community. And thank goodness my daughter does not have to be humilitated when she goes to school. . .

Like I said, you can be a half empty guy, or you can be a half full guy, life is way to short for me to spend my time dealing with people who dont care enough or have the energy to do the "right" thing. I'll let that suck your energy and I'll live a happy life, each to their own.

Nemont, most that go to IHS go to the ER, even if they need chicken soup, you are correct. but it's more because of how it's run and the lack of attention given, and the people's lack of education, than it is a social welfare fiscal policy issue - although they do somewhat go hand in had. Par of a universal health care system must include educating our young and other's as to how to use health care, this to me is critical to a system that has a chance at success.

people need to learn to manage their health rather than wait for their heart to give out. they need to take better care of them selves and leave the ER for emergencies.

Also, it think if people did better preventative care (again mostly an educational issue) the financial stability of our care system, and out society as a whole will benifit. . .
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-08 AT 11:00AM (MST)[p]Education is obvioulsy part of the answer. So is empowering the consumer. Ever ask your doctor how much a service is going to costs? Most have no idea what it costs because they are disconected from costs.

Anything else we buy without know the costs and just say send me a bill in a couple of months?

Education is one reason for the 11,000,000 plus eligible but not participating in the current system.

Look what this state did with the Montana Meth Project, which was financed with private money. Imagine if we had a Montana Health Care education project.

There are many many lower costs solutions to the problems then just building a new and expensive bureaucracy. The reason politicians don't want to do them is because they want control of all that money. Doesn't matter the party or the label.

Nemont
 
202 now I'm satanic? Otay

What part of WE ARE PAYING FOR IT NOW don't some of you get? the idea is to pay a lower price not pay something we aren't already paying.


Why won't anyone tell me why we should abolish public schools and go to all private since that would be cheaper? our school system is as socialist as it gets so why would some kind of medical system be any different? I for one would be all for that, I have no kids but my taxes put more than one through school I'm sure. I say lets have a kid tax, divide the cost of the school system by the number of kids and wahla you have your kid tax. sound like a good idea? why not we aren't socialist now are we? and we don't want to pay someone elses bill do we?

Why is education an accepted socialized program but staying alive is not? this makes no sense.
 
Nemont:

"Education is obvioulsy part of the answer. So is empowering the consumer. Ever ask your doctor how much a service is going to costs? Most have no idea what it costs because they are disconected from costs.

Anything else we buy without know the costs and just say send me a bill in a couple of months?

Education is one reason for the 11,000,000 plus eligible but not participating in the current system.

Look what this state did with the Montana Meth Project, which was financed with private money. Imagine if we had a Montana Health Care education project.

There are many many lower costs solutions to the problems then just building a new and expensive bureaucracy. The reason politicians don't want to do them is because they want control of all that money. Doesn't matter the party or the label.

Nemont"

All all for a discussion about such options . . . sounds very reasonable to me!
 
I really miss TimberHunter's posts...at least we could all identify the same items as BS.

Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. --Ronald Reagan
 
Why is education an accepted socialized program but staying alive is not? this makes no sense.

Same squirrel logic that makes one rant and rave about global warming and drive a emmission nightmare classic hot rod.



Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. --Ronald Reagan
 
>Why is education an accepted socialized
>program but staying alive is
>not? this makes no sense.
>
>
>Same squirrel logic that makes one
>rant and rave about global
>warming and drive a emmission
>nightmare classic hot rod.
>
Well stated. I would actually LOVE to see education 'privatized', I believe the more the federal government messes with education, the worse it gets! I would love to get my taxes back that pay for education and be able to spend it on my kids PRIVATE education. The public school system is ANOTHER example of a long line of them of why the government needs to get SMALLER, not BIGGER!

PRO


Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Well Pro you stole both my replies to Dude.
Well said Pro and 1911 that was hilarious.

Do away with public schools would be fine by me. There is no competition for students dollars therefore there is apathy and lousy teachers and administrators just sucking on the public teet. Make schools compete for students and watch the crap teachers and administrators go away. See how simple it is Dude. Yes it really is that simple.




?Justice consists not in being neutral between right and wrong, but in finding out the right and upholding it, wherever found, against the wrong.?
---Theodore Roosevelt,
 
So I could get my money back and spend it on hunting trips rather than your kids education? unless we're socialist remember you don't get my money you pay your own way. still sure you want to pay it alone? if you do I think you're in the minority.

1911 you didn't answer anything, are you for socialized education or not? if you think it's wrong why not cure it with the same system you approve of for health care? the you're on your own plan. if you think socialized education is for the best then why does it scare you in heath care? if you can't define the difference and justify it then you have no thoughts on a solution. this is basic , if you can't get past the fear of socialization and admit we've been socialized for years you aren't being realistic.
 
I won't attempt to answer for 1911, he seems more than able to 'outsmart' dude! But, for me America has indeed slowly become closer to socialism, and it has NOT been for the better. So, I guess I can be like dude and just bend over, or I can stand up and say enough is enough. I'll stand up. We have slowly crept away from the brilliant system setup by the founders of this great nation, and we have crept further away from being a great nation at the same rate. Capitalism works better than socialism in EVERY case throughout history, and no nation has been a better example of this than the United States of America. When we go back to being 'Americans', America will be great again. As we 'evolve' into Europe, we become weak and unable to stand up to the threats on our way of life.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
There is one difference in the application of education vs. government healthcare. The burden ceases for the state at the 12th grade. Anyone who gets educational assistance beyond that had better be able to do it on scholastic merit rather than entitlement because that is the way it generally works with scholarships, grants, ect. I actually have generally good things to say about the public schools. In Utah anyway, there are good teachers, and generally a good end product. That being said the private schools always seem to do better. And the teachers unions sure are afraid of the competition. Because some people do not look out for the best interest of their children, we as a society pick up the tab. I suppose you could correlate that to health care but only as it relates to anyone under the age of 18. I guess an argument against private schools would be looking at how many A$$ politicians seem to come from ivy league schools.

You could also take your argument the other direction and say that based on the precident set for social assistance by the model of public education, we should have EVERYTHING taken care of from the womb to the tomb. Let's not get silly.

One word about your dream government healthcare system. Have you forgotten about Walter Reed Medical Center? C'mon dude, you have to remember that was on Bush's watch. That's the kinda program we can expect.


Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. --Ronald Reagan
 
For one thing education is not a life or death decision. If I choose not get educated that is my own choice. The education system gets paid for me being in school therefore they make every effort to make sure my body is sitting in a seat inside the school house to get counted.

Socialized health care has a vested interest in making sure I don't get served the most expensive and often times life saving services. If I have private health insurance and they don't pay I have a whole host of remedies ie, the Insurance Commissioner, the court system, the Federal and state laws, bad publicity etc etc. None of those are remedies under socialized medicine.

I would rather have the hammer of an Insurance Complaint before the State Insurance Commissioner to get an insurance company to pay then have to face a bureaucrat that has the ultimate authority.


http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-08 AT 12:36PM (MST)[p]Bing Bing Bing...we have a winner!! Well said Nemont.


Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. --Ronald Reagan
 
T, nice thoughts on "this is how the nation feels, this is how the people feel, this is how the doctor feels, this is how my tummy feels, this is how the world feels, this is how the russians feel, this is how Britney Speers feels, bla bla bla."

That is a direct quote.

Give some facts. Let's see....our country boasts more innovation and the fastest acting helath care on the planet.

TA DA....guess what....we win....capitalism without the iron hand of a dem...what a wonder.

Can anyone say windbag....my gosh...I go to work and come back and there are 50 posts and half from T. Get a job, and a brain. Get religion so you can think straight.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
IVE GOT IT!

The way to fix this is create a huge government program!

Yeah, that always fixes everything.

Here in Utah we have IHC (Intermountain Health Care) run by a bunch of Mormons. Rated the best health care program in the Nation and for the world for that matter. Get some Mormons to set up your Capitalistic Health Care Program and you too can have the best health care in the world.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
I'm for it. My taxes paid seem to pay for everybody's insurence but mine. It's about time part of the money, i've paid for others, covers me as well.

Just a thought, my parents have gone thru over half a million from their life savings on health care related costs during the past 4 years. They have great ins. Now they're selling the house to live.
 
I hear no solutions to anything , none of you will address what this is doing to our companies who haven't move out of the country already to compete. the difference between socialized school and medicine argument only has one valid point so far, the age of 18 puts a limit down, to a degree if you don't figure public funding for higher education . schooling is still a socialist program, just like health care I'm paying for others.

It may give some of you a high thinking you're beating back the big bad dems here but I don't think anyone is advocating anything other than ideas that might help. none of you have anything constructive to add,just whining about others ideas.

Bush has cut medicade and medicare funding in the new budget, so in a way our broken system is already coming apart. don't tell me we're not going to see an increase in our insurance cost because of it, by taxes or premiums you're paying . this can't do attitude is what got us here and it's not going to fix it, I just hope somebody comes up with an idea and gets the support to get it acted upon. I don't care what it is we need to try something, if it doesn't work we can learn and do better.
 
Dude,


I don't advocate doing nothing. I outlined several things that would lower the cost of care without sacrificing quality.

Since you know all the problems and solutions let's hear yours. You have offered nothing at all in the way of a solution.

Nemont
 
You may be right that there is no magic bullet that will give us all what we want. The bottom line that seems to continually pointed out here as that government program politicians/administrators have never been the iconic good stewards of our best interest. Look at one of the biggest social programs of all times, Social Security. You work your whole life for this big promise of a safety net and guess what?, now it is not so much a guarantee. Why? Because there is no accountability with the people who have claimed to be saving us from ourselves. Rather than safekeep that money that has come in to the govt. coffers pay day after pay day, it was SPENT!! We can all sit back and banter who's fault it was but in the end it is gone, and there is no SECURITY in social security.

With healthcare it would be no different. There are a lot of challenges faced by everyday working families for health care you bet. Look at what the goverment could do, that it has not done to take care of health care costs in the mean time. Go ask your doctor, whether it be a general practice or specialist what he pays in medical malpractice premiums and it will make you sick. Then figure out who really pays that premium. The list goes on and on. Is healthcare more expensive than it was 50 years ago?, 20?, 10?, 1? Well yes. Hello, anyone seen any difference in costs associated with medical treatment. There are active treatments today that were not in existance even 6 months ago. Does anyone think this stuff grows for free? That is like comparing the cost of driving a motor vehicle present day with the cost your great grandpa incurred. Only he was in a worn out Model A, and you vehicle of choice is a high dollar import. Oh what it cost more now? Well no kidding it costs more now. I think perhaps your grandpa didn't have the option of side curtain airbags on his model A.

Apparently we cannot or should not point out that the emporer has no clothes to dude unless we can dress him for free.




Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. --Ronald Reagan
 
Nemont you made some good points but I didn't see where you had any solutions, what is your plan?

I didn't say I had all the answers, if I did I wouldn't be farming and running stupid cattle I'm sick of right now I'd be a very rich consultant. all I'm saying is we need to do something, I'm open to anything, I mean anything this isn't a partisan thing it's an economic one. we've tried nothing and it hasn't worked, no reason to think it will anytime soon.
 
RE: The Health Care We Need

LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-08 AT 01:47AM (MST)[p]Dude if I may...

Let's talk about numbers, suggested alternatives, current privacy policies, SCHIP, Medicaid, Medicare, Elder Care and few other things. When it comes to SCHIP, Medicaid, Medicare, 2 of these plans are permanent and 1 of these plans will end or be refunded, possible at a reduced rate at the end of this 2009.

SCHIP is a plan that was enacted as part of the Balanced Budget Act of 1997 which alotted 40 billion dollars in federal funding to be divided amongst the states. The states then set up healtcare agencies to help provide coverage for children and in some states adults living 200% below the Federal Poverty Level.

Unlike Medicare or Medicaid, SCHIP funding is originated as a 10-year block grant. An extension was voted in 2007 for funding until 2009. http://www.schip-info.org/

For other information on SCHIP, state contributions and it's fragile status: http://www.cbpp.org/6-5-06health.htm

So let's put SCHIP under the title of "Currently Availble /Broken/Broke." If under the current program as was mentioned "caps" are in place by the state, coverage will be available in limited numbers. Last time I checked all our states are currently under fiscal crisis leaving contribution funding under increasing budget pressure.

Universal healthcare proposals would ensure SCHIP funding and relieve current fiscal pressure from the states and the federal government.

HIPPA, now it has been mentioned that HIPPA guarantees group insurance carriers from "data-mining" or gathering and using medical information in pre-screening applicants or clients medical information. However, there were 23,000+ complaints filed for HIPAA violations in 2006. An approxiamate 75% of those cases were dismissed, however NO insurance carrier had ever been fined under HIPPA for the other 25% of cases. 2007 complaint numbers are not available at this time

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?DR_ID=41861

Outside of those eligible for the currently underfunded SCHIP program, it was mentioned that 19% or 8,474,000 currently are living in households making 300%+ over the Ferderal Poverty line that simply choose not purchase what they otherwise could afford.

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?DR_ID=41860

Eel mentioned caring for his father, and Eel my heart goes out to you on that. You are not alone.

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?DR_ID=41862

We have talked about numbers and in many cases these discussion end up describing socialized medicine or a nationalized health systems. The current Universal Healthcare proposals are neither since you will still have a choice to select coverage from current insurers. This will give you all the protection that currently is in place and with the same protections and legal recourse.

Here is some information, including some "real numbers" and background on Massachusetts Mandated system.

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?DR_ID=41859

Seems to be a rather affordable starting place for even the those living on in the lowest income brackets.

Which brings us to one of my favorite subjects Medicaid. When you hear about stories of losing $ 8-12 Billion cash in Iraq I cannot help to think about the sinister side of Medicaid.

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?DR_ID=41870

As we all know Medicaid and Medicare both have very rigid eligibility requirements and are both recognized as broken systems.

My buddy Pro mentioned this in Thread 64.

"We have slowly crept away from the brilliant system setup by the founders of this great nation, and we have crept further away from being a great nation at the same rate. Capitalism works better than socialism in EVERY case throughout history, and no nation has been a better example of this than the United States of America.

http://education.csm.edu/students/ropitz/Scholarly Papers/funding_education.htm

What can you say about Jefferson guy other than ....he wore a friggin wig.

As for 1911, I can't remember his name but that guy that invented the Internet said, " We need to place a "Lockbox" on Social Security to keep it safe." How the press and his opponents laughed at that guy when he kept insisting at every debate that George was going to take the money out of it.

I hear every supporter and defender of the current Bush administration pointing to George's blunders as evidence of why we all should mistrust the government. I heard the calls to trust people and the private sector, before ever trusting
the government.

How many corporations have been found guilty of malfeasance, fraud, and market manipulation. Corporations are protected by law to maximize shareholder profits. The list of corporations breaking the public trust is long and impressive.

From all the examples of governmental failures, perhaps it's the current people in the goverment that are untrustworthy. I also believe the current numbers are substancially higher than the 50 million that have been quoted here.

Levels of my trust:

1.My fellow man
2.My government
3.Corporations
4.Military Industrial Complex

As for the current Universal Healthcare Proposals, we need it and we need it now more than ever. As is stated in main post "may include garnishments" which can also mean it may not. Or like in Boston, Mass., it might be so affordable, why not attach wages or hold back tax refunds?

In either case, these are proposals and the first steps to addressing our healthcare issues. In hope of relieving the financial duress, inequities, and pitfalls in our current system.
 
RE: The Health Care We Need

Ftwl,

I'd probably list the govt. and corporate trust in about the same slot. The largest difference I see is ultimately, I can shop for a new corporation...the govt. I'm stuck with.

P.S. From its inception, social security has never been set aside, and certainly not invested in the same manner federal law requires private retirement accounts. I blame both parties for that. Egor may have made reference to that "lockbox" however it never existed. That money was taken from your check and never set aside. If it did exist, and it was invested by a panel of 6th graders, we would not be facing shortfalls. Once again I'll say I blame both parties for that.


Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them. --Ronald Reagan
 
RE: The Health Care We Need

Excellent post FTW, health care funding is a major issue and it will get the attention it deserves soon .

Funny how all our love America flag waving clowns never miss a chance to bash our government at every turn, unless we're bombing someone you can't love your country you have to distance yourself from it for your own protection. brilliant
 
RE: The Health Care We Need

LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-08 AT 10:23AM (MST)[p]FTW,

While no Insurance company has been fined under HIPAA does not mean HIPAA has been a cost free law. Ask any hospital or doctors office the burden place upon on them by the law.

In addition it was not just evil insurance companies that had to spend money to comply, defend and document HIPPA compliance. It was every MEWA, (Muliple Employer Welfare Association) and every self funded plan which as ERISA trust were exempt from state laws.

You state that we cannot look to the European's or Canadians for their system because we don't use them as examples. Explain what would be different in an American Universal Health Care System that has been thought up in other countries.

Spell it out how you will put a lid on premiums, taxes or wage garnishments. The poor won't pay the bill because they do not pay taxes. The rich will pay what they are currently paying and buy their own. The middle class will be left paying for the poor and themselves through higher taxes. Name a government program that does not continue to ask for higher and higher budgets.

In the Mass. system the poor get good subsidize rates but who pays the balance of the premium? In addition Mass. has not created a new system they are subsidizing the current one without any cost controls on providers. Want to bet what the rate increase will be or more appropriately how much more money will have to be made available to sustain the viability of that plan after the plan is in place for a full 24 months? It would make the price of gas bet look foolish on my part.


This is a brief list of important concerns about Massachusetts' new Mandatory Health Insurance program.
-- Looming questions remain about the long-term financial viability of the plan.

-- The program grants enormous power to special interest groups to collect health care data on all citizens, and imposes stiff fines on health care providers who fail to fully share "confidential" patient data. It's unclear with whom patient data may be shared or who holds legal ownership of the data.

-- The program ensures public access to basic health care, but it doesn't grant equal access to high-quality health care. Inevitably under any "personal payment" plan, the wealthy will obtain higher quality and timelier health care services, and will have access to a broader range of services and tests.

-- As health costs rise, services for the poor under this plan could be cut, and for those paying the partially-subsidized premiums, costs and deductibles could significantly rise .

-- The program is administered by a "health-care quality and cost council" composed entirely of unelected bureaucrats and political appointments. The council does not answer to the state Health & Human Services department.


As for government help look at what happend through the Medicare Modernization Act, which allowed for not only Part D plans but also Medicare Advantage plans. Medicare advantage allows the insurance companies to take over a persons Medicare coverage and take the risk for those enrollees. Medicare Advantage plans are more expensive to medicare then standard medicare. My point is that whenever government helps it makes care more expensive.

I have attended at least 15 conferences in the past 5 years, probably more. I have listened to presentations from Senators and Congressmen from both parties, from the current and two former Surgeon Generals as well as untold Senior Policy advisors and Health Care Industry leaders. Everyone almost to a person acknowledges that at a minimum there is a health care affordibility problem across this country.

Nearly every one of them had some form of or part of a solution. In the end none have been able to come up with anything that even remotely looked like a viable plan. There are lots of ideas to scrap the current system and put in a cradle to grave national system just like Canada or Great Britain or New Zealand for where ever.

There are many many intelligent, well read, influential and very good hearted people trying to get their hands around the problem. Every time there is even a partial solution some part of the system with vested interests shoots it down.

Since you know everything explain who is going to be able to offer a proposal that will satisfy all the stake holders. It isn't just evil insurance companies that are making money off of the health care system.

Also congress could help out in a significant way just by lifting the cap on the numbers of Medical Residents. The Balance Budget Act of 1997 placed a cap on how many Medical Residents can have access to medicare payments. There is a shortage of Orthopods, Geriatrics docs, Gen. Practioners etc, etc. As the baby boomers age into the medicare system the demand for these specialities will increase however congress will not lift the cap. This is an example of the goverment helping.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the Kaiser numbers of 44.6 million unisured is wrong? They are the most accurate and reliable source of health policy raw data there is. Kind of the gold standard used by everybody.

You didn't put a price tag on anything nor did you offer plan that would guarantee coverage. Explain how if the current employer based plans are allowed to continue to offer coverage and the government will subsidize everyone else that that equals lower costs? Even in the Mass. example the poor don't really pay any significant amount and the demonstrated saving to everyone else was not enough to offset the increased government spending on the subsidy.

Also explain why you have such disrespect for Thomas Jefferson and why the Constitution should no longer be the guiding law of our country. It has served us pretty well up to this point.

There are no true solutions to health care. There are several choices that have to be made. These are societies choices: either have choice in how we spend health care dollars or we can have the government take our money and spend it for us. Our society is going to have to decide which system they want so far we have decided to have choice.

Giving money to the government does not guarantee equal nor even quality care.

Too often people beleive that if we had Universal care that they would have access to all the goodies that are currently available. In addition they think that their access to care would not diminish. Both assumptions are wrong.

I am not saying don't do anything, I am saying that society is going to have to decide which way they want to go. I would urge the voters to consider all the options before just trying something for trying sake as Huntindude suggests. The government does not easily self correct and if we pick the wrong system we will be stuck with that system for many, many years to come.

Also nobody has explains how any of this will save anyone any money.

Nemont
 
RE: The Health Care We Need

Fascism - An authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state, party or society as a whole.

So who is the bunch on here trying to cram healthcare down everyones throat? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Nice try Forskin



"Thanks climate PhD 202" - TFinalshot Feb-05-08, 02:16 PM (MST)
 
RE: The Health Care We Need

If social security had been privatized within the last several years and placed into indexed funds, we all would have lost money in today's market. In the long run you maybe correct but the sub prime credit crunch is evidence of why privatizing has it's associated risks.
 
RE: The Health Care We Need

LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-08 AT 11:14AM (MST)[p]>If social security had been privatized
>within the last several years
>and placed into indexed funds,
>we all would have lost
>money in today's market. In
>the long run you maybe
>correct but the sub prime
>credit crunch is evidence of
>why privatizing has it's associated
>risks.

We would have lost money if we had dollar cost averaged the money in the mediare surplus rather then let congress and the President spend on General fund obligations? I doubt if we had started putting the money in the market even back in the 80's when the dow average about 890 we would be broke. There really is no SS trust fund, it is full of IOU's from the federal government.

Look at what was being said about health care in 1973
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/healthca/hodgson.htm
 
RE: The Health Care We Need

Nemont, HIPAA was set forth to protect consumers and bring the use of paper medical records into the 21st century. It's true it has cost billions, but change, especially modernization always has a price tag. I don't think either of us will argue it's overall benefits. Does it need to be modified in certain areas? Yes.

"Since I know everything" I guess I am deservant of that shot. I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything, but I do know a little about somethings. I tried to preface my views, I hovered for quite a while hoping my word use would not be considered offensive before hitting the send button. It was a gamble and I was wrong. I will state again, I deeply and sincerely apologize for offending you Nemont. I hope you believe me when I say I do value your input.

Pro mentioned our founding fathers, I merely pointed out that Thomas Jefferson felt that education should be fully federally funded. Check the link, I have no problem with Jefferson I just thought Pro should read up on his views. I have no problems with the Constitution it has served us well.

As for the Mass plan it is truly a Beta test and should reveal systemic short comings. I believe the other 49 states are taking close watch at Mass and like all things new, changes will be made to address arising issues. Afterall, it is a brand new systems and only time will tell if has served it's purpose.

The key word that started this fevered post debate is "May" which also means "May Not". I'm just a dumb delivery driver with a college degree, I never claimed to being an expert in designing a Universal Healthcare System.

Is that everything? No, Kaiser's data. This hits close to home since I am vendor for the Kaiser Foundation. Well, I am not sure if Kaiser's data includes those on programs like COBRA, recently laid off workers in limbo, or accurately counts the daily inflow of illegals. I do agree that Kaiser is the gold standard, as such I have referenced them exclusively.

Given your post, we are basically in agreement that something has to be done. At least reviewing U.H. proposals are a step in the right direction. They will be scrutinized with a fine tooth comb and hopefully a viable plan may come to fruition. The important thing is that we are able to at least consider alternatives which I believe is a step in the right direction.

Are we cool? Is our bet still on? I really am sorry!
 
RE: The Health Care We Need

>Are we cool? Is our bet
>still on? I really am
>sorry!

The only thing I took personal was the fascist remark.

In alot of this I am playing devils advocate. In the area of health care financing I know a little bit. Most people, including all the Presidential candidate, who spout off that we need universal care have spent almost no time looking at anything of value. Is the an affordibility crisis, of course there is. But if you read the link to the story from 1973 you will see the problem is much more complex and important then just having Hillary "fix" the problem.

Health Care costs are not the only reason GM is having a hard time competing. GM workers have been given a great plan for so long that they have an entitlement mentality. That is the single biggest problem across our country. I firmly believe this: if we empowered consumers with knowledge of costs, an incentive to manage their own health ie exercise, lose weight etc paid for preventive health ie cancer screening etc. and had a "backstop" catastrophic cap paid for by the taxpayers that there would be an amazing transformation in the health care industry.

The problem is that the stakeholders either have no interest in less money going into the system or having to take control of their health.

Nemont
 
RE: The Health Care We Need

You two are both a class act, and the best debaters around here. entertaining and informational, good job.
 

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