Region W, 4 point mule deer or better?
- Thread starter mobertok
- Start date
BigJohnson
Member
- Messages
- 94
Oct 1-14 is for kids, any deer.
>Where does it say any deer
>Oct 1 - 14 is
>any deer for youth ?
>Sounds like a good idea
>but I'm confused as so
>are the people at fish
>and game that I called
>
It's right here in the Final Regs in black & white:
82 Oct. 1 Oct. 12 General Antlered mule deer four (4)
points or more on either antler
or any white-tailed deer
82 Oct. 1 Oct. 14 General youth
license
Any deer
>Oct 1 - 14 is
>any deer for youth ?
>Sounds like a good idea
>but I'm confused as so
>are the people at fish
>and game that I called
>
It's right here in the Final Regs in black & white:
82 Oct. 1 Oct. 12 General Antlered mule deer four (4)
points or more on either antler
or any white-tailed deer
82 Oct. 1 Oct. 14 General youth
license
Any deer
elks96
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,791
This will completely screw the units! It will only take a few years, maybe even 1 to shift the genetics in the unit! Simply put if you kill only the 4 pointers, the only bucks left will be little and do most of the breeding!
Look at some units where the 4 point rule went into place, they struggle for generations to produce anything more than threes and little crabby 4s.
Sorry but greedy people who do not want to hunt hard will screw this unit up!
I sure hope anyone for this point restriction has to watch a 35" 3x3 walk.
Also can guarantee there will be a lot of 3 points left to rot in the field.
It is a stupid management plan!
Look at some units where the 4 point rule went into place, they struggle for generations to produce anything more than threes and little crabby 4s.
Sorry but greedy people who do not want to hunt hard will screw this unit up!
I sure hope anyone for this point restriction has to watch a 35" 3x3 walk.
Also can guarantee there will be a lot of 3 points left to rot in the field.
It is a stupid management plan!
elks96
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,791
>Yes sir!
>Brand new! Hopefully this will keep
>some bucks walking around for
>a couple years instead of
>4,000 little guys getting holes
>pocked in them every year!
>
It will mean fewer big bucks and a shift from great genetics to a lot of 3s. It is a horrible plan and will result in a decrease in buck quality!
>Brand new! Hopefully this will keep
>some bucks walking around for
>a couple years instead of
>4,000 little guys getting holes
>pocked in them every year!
>
It will mean fewer big bucks and a shift from great genetics to a lot of 3s. It is a horrible plan and will result in a decrease in buck quality!
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,341
>This will completely screw the units!
>It will only take a
>few years, maybe even 1
>to shift the genetics in
>the unit! Simply put if
>you kill only the 4
>pointers, the only bucks left
>will be little and do
>most of the breeding!
Do you honestly think all the 4pts will be killed? They won't leave this restriction on too long anyways and the doe contributes to the buck quality too you know. You are over reacting elks.
>Look at some units where the
>4 point rule went into
>place, they struggle for generations
>to produce anything more than
>threes and little crabby 4s.
And where exactly is this and what proof do you have APRs did it?
>Sorry but greedy people who do
>not want to hunt hard
>will screw this unit up!
How is that? The 4pt restriction will make the hunting harder.
>I sure hope anyone for this
>point restriction has to watch
>a 35" 3x3 walk.
A 35" 3x3 with no brows or stickers? Doubt that...
>Also can guarantee there will be
>a lot of 3 points
>left to rot in the
>field.
Lots?
>It is a stupid management plan!
Guess you should have attended all the meetings they had talking about this. A little late to the game now.
>It will only take a
>few years, maybe even 1
>to shift the genetics in
>the unit! Simply put if
>you kill only the 4
>pointers, the only bucks left
>will be little and do
>most of the breeding!
Do you honestly think all the 4pts will be killed? They won't leave this restriction on too long anyways and the doe contributes to the buck quality too you know. You are over reacting elks.
>Look at some units where the
>4 point rule went into
>place, they struggle for generations
>to produce anything more than
>threes and little crabby 4s.
And where exactly is this and what proof do you have APRs did it?
>Sorry but greedy people who do
>not want to hunt hard
>will screw this unit up!
How is that? The 4pt restriction will make the hunting harder.
>I sure hope anyone for this
>point restriction has to watch
>a 35" 3x3 walk.
A 35" 3x3 with no brows or stickers? Doubt that...
>Also can guarantee there will be
>a lot of 3 points
>left to rot in the
>field.
Lots?
>It is a stupid management plan!
Guess you should have attended all the meetings they had talking about this. A little late to the game now.
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 7,989
Respectfully elks96, I totally disagree with our comments/believes.
I know what Utah DWR and other's have stated about antler restrictions and genetics. Just because they have said it, printed it, published it, written Doctoral Dissertations about, and those statements have been repeated and are now taught in Graduates School's syllabus, as science, does not make it true.
Like so damn many of the myths about mule deer that have become science, the nonsense about the dangers and negative consequences of antler restriction are grossly unfounded.
Ie:
You can't transplant mule deer.
You can't save mule deer by feeding them in the winter.
It only takes 4 to 6 bucks per hundred does to keep the does breed.
Coyotes have no significant impact on fawn survival.
Cougar populations have insignificant effect on mule deer populations.
Mule deer will not use under passes/over passes during migration.
This list could go on but you get the idea.
All these so called scientific teachings are agency propaganda used by our fish and game departments are social/economic/political arguments and are nearly always biologically false, or at the very least biological half truths.
DC
I know what Utah DWR and other's have stated about antler restrictions and genetics. Just because they have said it, printed it, published it, written Doctoral Dissertations about, and those statements have been repeated and are now taught in Graduates School's syllabus, as science, does not make it true.
Like so damn many of the myths about mule deer that have become science, the nonsense about the dangers and negative consequences of antler restriction are grossly unfounded.
Ie:
You can't transplant mule deer.
You can't save mule deer by feeding them in the winter.
It only takes 4 to 6 bucks per hundred does to keep the does breed.
Coyotes have no significant impact on fawn survival.
Cougar populations have insignificant effect on mule deer populations.
Mule deer will not use under passes/over passes during migration.
This list could go on but you get the idea.
All these so called scientific teachings are agency propaganda used by our fish and game departments are social/economic/political arguments and are nearly always biologically false, or at the very least biological half truths.
DC
elks96
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,791
Tell me how forcing people to shoot bugger bucks actually makes more big bucks? I know you have a following but it makes absolutely no sense that you will increase the number of big bucks by forcing the same number of people to shoot only bigger bucks!
I am willing to bet that this year there will be a significant decrease in the number of big bucks in the winter grounds come the 3rd week of November. Do you really think that the point restriction will suddenly mean fewer bucks will get killed and that there will magically be an increase in bigger bucks. AP restriction have shown that it has very little effect if none on the quality of deer.
Ferris mountain. And green mountain are both areas where there is a major 3 point gene. Especially the ferris side. Having hunted that units many times it is amazing how many mature bucks are 3s or barely a crab claw 4.
If you really cared about buck quality and the quality of hunting in W you would work with the blm to close roads and create more walk in areas.
Also under the current management pan there are tons of big bucks in these units. They are there and they are hard to find but I can honestly say that Region W has bucks in it right now that will score nearly as good as anywhere in the country. They get big because people tag put and go home!
As for my 3x3 example, my target buck for this fall will be 5 maybe 6 years old, 2 years ago a clean 3x3 29-30 wide, last year he was a perfectly clean and smooth 3x3 32-33 wide. I believe I first saw him when he was 3 and at that time he was 24 3x3.
I have watched those meeting you mentioned and I have also submitted letters, and recommendations to both the biologist and the officer. I never heard back from anyone. I also realize that most of the meeting were attended by old guys who want it like the old days and good old Harry Licks, who is all for extreme limitations to keep his deer from the hands of out of staters and anyone not living in the little Snake!
Unit 22 COLORADO os a great example. It went 4 point of better for 4 years it took nearly a decade for a solid 4 point gene to show up, but still so,e areas of the unit specifically the areas further away from private land have a pretty dominate 3 point gene!
>>This will completely screw the units!
>>It will only take a
>>few years, maybe even 1
>>to shift the genetics in
>>the unit! Simply put if
>>you kill only the 4
>>pointers, the only bucks left
>>will be little and do
>>most of the breeding!
>
>Do you honestly think all the
>4pts will be killed? They
>won't leave this restriction on
>too long anyways and the
>doe contributes to the buck
>quality too you know. You
>are over reacting elks.
>
>
>>Look at some units where the
>>4 point rule went into
>>place, they struggle for generations
>>to produce anything more than
>>threes and little crabby 4s.
>
>And where exactly is this and
>what proof do you have
>APRs did it?
>
>
>>Sorry but greedy people who do
>>not want to hunt hard
>>will screw this unit up!
>
>How is that? The 4pt restriction
>will make the hunting harder.
>
>
>>I sure hope anyone for this
>>point restriction has to watch
>>a 35" 3x3 walk.
>
>A 35" 3x3 with no brows
>or stickers? Doubt that...
>
>
>>Also can guarantee there will be
>>a lot of 3 points
>>left to rot in the
>>field.
>
>Lots?
>
>>It is a stupid management plan!
>
>Guess you should have attended all
>the meetings they had talking
>about this. A little late
>to the game now.
I am willing to bet that this year there will be a significant decrease in the number of big bucks in the winter grounds come the 3rd week of November. Do you really think that the point restriction will suddenly mean fewer bucks will get killed and that there will magically be an increase in bigger bucks. AP restriction have shown that it has very little effect if none on the quality of deer.
Ferris mountain. And green mountain are both areas where there is a major 3 point gene. Especially the ferris side. Having hunted that units many times it is amazing how many mature bucks are 3s or barely a crab claw 4.
If you really cared about buck quality and the quality of hunting in W you would work with the blm to close roads and create more walk in areas.
Also under the current management pan there are tons of big bucks in these units. They are there and they are hard to find but I can honestly say that Region W has bucks in it right now that will score nearly as good as anywhere in the country. They get big because people tag put and go home!
As for my 3x3 example, my target buck for this fall will be 5 maybe 6 years old, 2 years ago a clean 3x3 29-30 wide, last year he was a perfectly clean and smooth 3x3 32-33 wide. I believe I first saw him when he was 3 and at that time he was 24 3x3.
I have watched those meeting you mentioned and I have also submitted letters, and recommendations to both the biologist and the officer. I never heard back from anyone. I also realize that most of the meeting were attended by old guys who want it like the old days and good old Harry Licks, who is all for extreme limitations to keep his deer from the hands of out of staters and anyone not living in the little Snake!
Unit 22 COLORADO os a great example. It went 4 point of better for 4 years it took nearly a decade for a solid 4 point gene to show up, but still so,e areas of the unit specifically the areas further away from private land have a pretty dominate 3 point gene!
>>This will completely screw the units!
>>It will only take a
>>few years, maybe even 1
>>to shift the genetics in
>>the unit! Simply put if
>>you kill only the 4
>>pointers, the only bucks left
>>will be little and do
>>most of the breeding!
>
>Do you honestly think all the
>4pts will be killed? They
>won't leave this restriction on
>too long anyways and the
>doe contributes to the buck
>quality too you know. You
>are over reacting elks.
>
>
>>Look at some units where the
>>4 point rule went into
>>place, they struggle for generations
>>to produce anything more than
>>threes and little crabby 4s.
>
>And where exactly is this and
>what proof do you have
>APRs did it?
>
>
>>Sorry but greedy people who do
>>not want to hunt hard
>>will screw this unit up!
>
>How is that? The 4pt restriction
>will make the hunting harder.
>
>
>>I sure hope anyone for this
>>point restriction has to watch
>>a 35" 3x3 walk.
>
>A 35" 3x3 with no brows
>or stickers? Doubt that...
>
>
>>Also can guarantee there will be
>>a lot of 3 points
>>left to rot in the
>>field.
>
>Lots?
>
>>It is a stupid management plan!
>
>Guess you should have attended all
>the meetings they had talking
>about this. A little late
>to the game now.
elks96
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,791
Tell me how you will recruit more big bucks by forcing everyone to target big bucks?
It simply does not ,AKs bigger bucks. All it does is temporarily reduce take for a year or 2.
Show any population data that supports this idea. The only place where it truly works is when you completely limit take at the same time.
I can see the writing on the wall for region W. It will soon be a place where us NR will only get every 4 to 5 years, and residents will hammer the bucks until,even that is not enough and the entire state will fall like a house of cards!
The best part about WY is the ability to hunt a ton of places and still have many options. It is what allows WY to have great bucks and allows people to actually enjoy a hunt!
Soon hunting WY will be like every other state. Pick your unit, your weapon, cram a ton of hunts into a 9 day season, and still wonder why there are not many quality Bucks unless you get a tag that is once in a lifetime!
Sounds like a great future for WY!
>Respectfully elks96, I totally disagree with
>our comments/believes.
>
>I know what Utah DWR and
>other's have stated about antler
>restrictions and genetics. Just
>because they have said it,
>printed it, published it, written
>Doctoral Dissertations about, and those
>statements have been repeated and
>are now taught in Graduates
>School's syllabus, as science, does
>not make it true.
>
>Like so damn many of the
>myths about mule deer that
>have become science, the nonsense
>about the dangers and negative
>consequences of antler restriction are
>grossly unfounded.
>
>Ie:
>You can't transplant mule deer.
>You can't save mule deer by
>feeding them in the winter.
>
>It only takes 4 to 6
>bucks per hundred does to
>keep the does breed.
>Coyotes have no significant impact on
>fawn survival.
>Cougar populations have insignificant effect on
>mule deer populations.
>Mule deer will not use under
>passes/over passes during migration.
>
>This list could go on but
>you get the idea.
>
>All these so called scientific teachings
>are agency propaganda used by
>our fish and game departments
>are social/economic/political arguments and are
>nearly always biologically false, or
>at the very least biological
>half truths.
>
>DC
It simply does not ,AKs bigger bucks. All it does is temporarily reduce take for a year or 2.
Show any population data that supports this idea. The only place where it truly works is when you completely limit take at the same time.
I can see the writing on the wall for region W. It will soon be a place where us NR will only get every 4 to 5 years, and residents will hammer the bucks until,even that is not enough and the entire state will fall like a house of cards!
The best part about WY is the ability to hunt a ton of places and still have many options. It is what allows WY to have great bucks and allows people to actually enjoy a hunt!
Soon hunting WY will be like every other state. Pick your unit, your weapon, cram a ton of hunts into a 9 day season, and still wonder why there are not many quality Bucks unless you get a tag that is once in a lifetime!
Sounds like a great future for WY!
>Respectfully elks96, I totally disagree with
>our comments/believes.
>
>I know what Utah DWR and
>other's have stated about antler
>restrictions and genetics. Just
>because they have said it,
>printed it, published it, written
>Doctoral Dissertations about, and those
>statements have been repeated and
>are now taught in Graduates
>School's syllabus, as science, does
>not make it true.
>
>Like so damn many of the
>myths about mule deer that
>have become science, the nonsense
>about the dangers and negative
>consequences of antler restriction are
>grossly unfounded.
>
>Ie:
>You can't transplant mule deer.
>You can't save mule deer by
>feeding them in the winter.
>
>It only takes 4 to 6
>bucks per hundred does to
>keep the does breed.
>Coyotes have no significant impact on
>fawn survival.
>Cougar populations have insignificant effect on
>mule deer populations.
>Mule deer will not use under
>passes/over passes during migration.
>
>This list could go on but
>you get the idea.
>
>All these so called scientific teachings
>are agency propaganda used by
>our fish and game departments
>are social/economic/political arguments and are
>nearly always biologically false, or
>at the very least biological
>half truths.
>
>DC
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 7,989
So....... was the famous 3 x4 gene on the Kaibab Az. unit caused by antler restriction?
Are spike x 6 point bull elk caused by antler restriction?
Are willow antlered seven year old bucks, caused by antler harvest regulation?
I'm as gulity as anyone but elk, you are letting your confirmation bias, use emperical data to draw your conclusions. I do the same thing, if I'm not careful. I want to believe something because it supports what I want to be true.
Please don't allow your bias to undo and undermine a short term solution to a deer herd that needs a few more buck added to it, after your recent winter loss, for what every your reasons are.
DC
Are spike x 6 point bull elk caused by antler restriction?
Are willow antlered seven year old bucks, caused by antler harvest regulation?
I'm as gulity as anyone but elk, you are letting your confirmation bias, use emperical data to draw your conclusions. I do the same thing, if I'm not careful. I want to believe something because it supports what I want to be true.
Please don't allow your bias to undo and undermine a short term solution to a deer herd that needs a few more buck added to it, after your recent winter loss, for what every your reasons are.
DC
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 7,989
LAST EDITED ON May-11-17 AT 11:40PM (MST)[p]I'm sticking my nose into something that is none of my business. So just a final comment on antler restriction and it's reported genetic consequences.
The Henry Mountains, one of the world class mule deer units in North America, was, for a number of years, managed under antler restriction.
A visit there in early August, will give you some empirical data that should give you pause to think.
DC
The Henry Mountains, one of the world class mule deer units in North America, was, for a number of years, managed under antler restriction.
A visit there in early August, will give you some empirical data that should give you pause to think.
DC
DirtyTough
Active Member
- Messages
- 445
Washington has had an APR in place for years. It is 3 point or better. And there are a lot of big mature 2 points running around doing some of the breeding now. I doubt a year or two with an APR in place will have a very big impact. But f left in place I believe it will be like Washington where you start having more and more mature bucks that aren't legal to hunt doing the breeding.
Regards, Branden
Regards, Branden
wytex
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,142
They tried this same strategy for the Snowies for a few years and now, population is up, buck /doe ratios are up and fawn/doe ratios are up. Took the 4 pt restriction away this year.
Buck quality has gone up during the restriction and overall mule deer are doing better so guess we'll wait and see.
Buck quality has gone up during the restriction and overall mule deer are doing better so guess we'll wait and see.
elks96
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,791
I gues my bigger concern is the goal for the region and actually for all of WY. The sad part is everyone, especially the locals I know in the region assume that every where else has big bucks and that the reason they are not killing big bucks is because everyone kills to many little bucks.
The truth is there are as many if not more trophy class bucks in in W as there are in almost any unit in the west. The only exceptions would be top trophy units.
I feel that many people falsely assume that hunting is always better on the other side.
The best thing that WY residents have going is the choices and flexibility they have in choosing when and where to hunt! It allows many great bucks to live as people have options and every year they can hold out looking for a big buck. In Colorado when you have not had a tag for a couple years the first decent buck a person sees gets shot, very few truly wait out for a trophy because it maybe several years again before you draw.
Sadly the WY system is setup to fall like a stack of cards and the most attractive reasons for hunting WY will be gone. Instead you will see people elbow deep in short seasons, you will get 1 maybe 2 weekends to hunt and the first buck you see that is decent will hit the ground because it has been 2 years since you drew and might be 4 before you draw again.
One person said they needed better bucks. I have had the W tag 3 times. killed a 196, 182 and on my third year I killed a 3 point that was over 10 years old. Last fall ,y wife and I chased 7 bucks in different areas that were all over 180 and one that broke 200. As far as I know only 1 of the 6 was killed and the biggest was spotted on the winter range.
The truth is there are as many if not more trophy class bucks in in W as there are in almost any unit in the west. The only exceptions would be top trophy units.
I feel that many people falsely assume that hunting is always better on the other side.
The best thing that WY residents have going is the choices and flexibility they have in choosing when and where to hunt! It allows many great bucks to live as people have options and every year they can hold out looking for a big buck. In Colorado when you have not had a tag for a couple years the first decent buck a person sees gets shot, very few truly wait out for a trophy because it maybe several years again before you draw.
Sadly the WY system is setup to fall like a stack of cards and the most attractive reasons for hunting WY will be gone. Instead you will see people elbow deep in short seasons, you will get 1 maybe 2 weekends to hunt and the first buck you see that is decent will hit the ground because it has been 2 years since you drew and might be 4 before you draw again.
One person said they needed better bucks. I have had the W tag 3 times. killed a 196, 182 and on my third year I killed a 3 point that was over 10 years old. Last fall ,y wife and I chased 7 bucks in different areas that were all over 180 and one that broke 200. As far as I know only 1 of the 6 was killed and the biggest was spotted on the winter range.
2lumpy
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 7,989
And......... it's nearly criminal, in my opinion, that an honest to goodness, scientific study has never been done by one of our great research universities.
It isn't black hole science to put together a valid study, that would tell us exactly what happens to mule deer genetics, after an extended antler restriction management tool has been used.
We all have our opinions, and they are worthless, except to argue for or against our personal hunting needs and wants.
It think it's absolute bullsh!t that, after all these years, and the terrific decline in our mule deer populations in the west, that a Federal Grant has been not been secured and some of these issues resolved rather than continue to see the mule deer numbers decline and continue to speculate on solutions and outcomes.
Antler restriction for mule deer needs a twenty year research study. Any bets that it will never happen?
DC
It isn't black hole science to put together a valid study, that would tell us exactly what happens to mule deer genetics, after an extended antler restriction management tool has been used.
We all have our opinions, and they are worthless, except to argue for or against our personal hunting needs and wants.
It think it's absolute bullsh!t that, after all these years, and the terrific decline in our mule deer populations in the west, that a Federal Grant has been not been secured and some of these issues resolved rather than continue to see the mule deer numbers decline and continue to speculate on solutions and outcomes.
Antler restriction for mule deer needs a twenty year research study. Any bets that it will never happen?
DC
WiscoKid
Active Member
- Messages
- 314
It's a good rule.. Yes there are mature 3 pts, but they will have never broke the 200" mark anyway. This saves a vast majority of the forkies who are dumb, we're legal to harvest, and who had the last choice of bedding spots. A certain percentage of every age class survives regardless of the regulations and by saving forkies and young threes, statistics say you will have more mature bucks.. It's simply a numbers game. Hunters can't or won't practice trigger control, and this rule forces them to. It's a net positive over the long term.
elks96
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,791
Spcan you show where this is God over the long term? I really just do not buy it! It may cause a temporary increase in bucks that live a little longer, but you still have the same number of people out attempting to kill the same number of bucks. You may shift the kill to a slightly older buck, but now every buck over 3 points will be hunted hard and have a lower chance to escape and live. Now people will be forced to hunt exclusively for bigger bucks, which will create more little bucks, but will not really create more bigger bucks.
I would love to see data from Region W on harvest stats. How many bucks of each age class were taken, how many bucks loved, etc. Where is the true science on this?
After all we should be using science to manage our herds. Not just perceptioms from those who think a big buck should be behind every bush.
Maybe the real message here for everyone is, our deer herds suck so bad in W that one one should bother hunting? Should this be a warning to NR that the numbers really suck and it is not worth your time or money?
I know I am laying Devils advocate, but I wish management decisions were made on true science!
>It's a good rule.. Yes there
>are mature 3 pts, but
>they will have never broke
>the 200" mark anyway.
>This saves a vast majority
>of the forkies who are
>dumb, we're legal to harvest,
> and who had the
>last choice of bedding spots.
> A certain percentage of
>every age class survives regardless
>of the regulations and by
>saving forkies and young threes,
> statistics say you will
>have more mature bucks.. It's
>simply a numbers game.
>Hunters can't or won't practice
>trigger control, and this
>rule forces them to.
>It's a net positive over
>the long term.
I would love to see data from Region W on harvest stats. How many bucks of each age class were taken, how many bucks loved, etc. Where is the true science on this?
After all we should be using science to manage our herds. Not just perceptioms from those who think a big buck should be behind every bush.
Maybe the real message here for everyone is, our deer herds suck so bad in W that one one should bother hunting? Should this be a warning to NR that the numbers really suck and it is not worth your time or money?
I know I am laying Devils advocate, but I wish management decisions were made on true science!
>It's a good rule.. Yes there
>are mature 3 pts, but
>they will have never broke
>the 200" mark anyway.
>This saves a vast majority
>of the forkies who are
>dumb, we're legal to harvest,
> and who had the
>last choice of bedding spots.
> A certain percentage of
>every age class survives regardless
>of the regulations and by
>saving forkies and young threes,
> statistics say you will
>have more mature bucks.. It's
>simply a numbers game.
>Hunters can't or won't practice
>trigger control, and this
>rule forces them to.
>It's a net positive over
>the long term.
The reality of it is, the people shooting the small bucks don't get away from the roads now, they don't want to, or unable to put in the effort to get the older deer. The 4 points that get shot from the road are still going to be shot from the road. The guys that go miles from the truck aren't shooting the small bucks anyway,so they still won't be shooting the small bucks. The difference, in my opinion is, the young, dumb bucks will get another year or two to learn how to avoid people.
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,341
LAST EDITED ON May-14-17 AT 11:05AM (MST)[p]^^^^What gas said.
Elks, an APR isn't going change how hunters hunt. The guys that bust their butts to kill big bucks, will still bust their butts. The rest will kill less deer. Harvest success will drop and they will not leave the APR on for more than two or three years tops. Your statements about genetics are pure opinion, based in zero facts.
Elks, an APR isn't going change how hunters hunt. The guys that bust their butts to kill big bucks, will still bust their butts. The rest will kill less deer. Harvest success will drop and they will not leave the APR on for more than two or three years tops. Your statements about genetics are pure opinion, based in zero facts.
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,341
>Someone needs to take a reading
>comprehension refresher, nobody said it
>had to be a 4x4.
>4 points on "either" antler,
>so a 3x2 with brow
>tines makes it a 4x3
>legally. Right? ?Point? means any
>protrusion from an antler one
>(1) inch or more in
>length.
This is correct.
>comprehension refresher, nobody said it
>had to be a 4x4.
>4 points on "either" antler,
>so a 3x2 with brow
>tines makes it a 4x3
>legally. Right? ?Point? means any
>protrusion from an antler one
>(1) inch or more in
>length.
This is correct.
nontypical
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,192
Elks96: Age has ZERO to do with genetics. Popeye's son at age 1 still has the same genetics he will at age 10. EVERY single doe he breeds at age 1 will be getting the same exact genes they would from him for the next ten years. And don't forget that the does have 50% of the genes their offspring will have. Your opinions on genes getting expunged from the herd couldn't be more inaccurate, Elks96.
APR's absolutely work if used correctly over a short period of time. In fact, you should be happy that they are imposed in your hunting area! In all other instances that I'm aware of, whenever apr's have been imposed, LESS hunters hunt those areas! G&F will verify this if you ask them.
Oh, and by the way, wth do you have against old guys??!! Is your dad old? How about your grandpa?? Excuse me if they are no longer with us...I apologize. Just making a point. Us old guys still feel like our opinions are valid; whether you do or not...
APR's absolutely work if used correctly over a short period of time. In fact, you should be happy that they are imposed in your hunting area! In all other instances that I'm aware of, whenever apr's have been imposed, LESS hunters hunt those areas! G&F will verify this if you ask them.
Oh, and by the way, wth do you have against old guys??!! Is your dad old? How about your grandpa?? Excuse me if they are no longer with us...I apologize. Just making a point. Us old guys still feel like our opinions are valid; whether you do or not...
elks96
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,791
>Elks96: Age has ZERO to do
>with genetics. Popeye's son at
>age 1 still has the
>same genetics he will at
>age 10. EVERY single doe
>he breeds at age 1
>will be getting the same
>exact genes they would from
>him for the next ten
>years. And don't forget that
>the does have 50% of
>the genes their offspring will
>have. Your opinions on genes
>getting expunged from the herd
>couldn't be more inaccurate, Elks96.
>
>
>APR's absolutely work if used correctly
>over a short period of
>time. In fact, you should
>be happy that they are
>imposed in your hunting area!
>In all other instances that
>I'm aware of, whenever apr's
>have been imposed, LESS hunters
>hunt those areas! G&F will
>verify this if you ask
>them.
>
>Oh, and by the way, wth
>do you have against old
>guys??!! Is your dad old?
>How about your grandpa?? Excuse
>me if they are no
>longer with us...I apologize. Just
>making a point. Us old
>guys still feel like our
>opinions are valid; whether you
>do or not...
My issue is not with all old guys, but anytime you talk about putting in seasonal road closures, or limiting vehicle access they all get up in arms as if they will never get to hunt again. In region W the access is very easy with roads all over the place. Even in areas where there are no formal roads the ATVs can easily and do drive across country, sometimes miles and miles. I feel that this is one of the biggest factors affecting hunting quality in the area. There are some areas for walk-in in W but those get hammered by the guys actually walking.
When this was brought up at a meeting the cry was from the older guys and how this will lock them out.
That is my beef with the older guys and my beef with with younger guys is they seldom show up and never provide input.
I would love to see the Wildlife managers work with the BLM managers and create areas where all vehicle access is closed for larger areas except for game retrieval at set times. I have seen similar areas set up in other states.
>with genetics. Popeye's son at
>age 1 still has the
>same genetics he will at
>age 10. EVERY single doe
>he breeds at age 1
>will be getting the same
>exact genes they would from
>him for the next ten
>years. And don't forget that
>the does have 50% of
>the genes their offspring will
>have. Your opinions on genes
>getting expunged from the herd
>couldn't be more inaccurate, Elks96.
>
>
>APR's absolutely work if used correctly
>over a short period of
>time. In fact, you should
>be happy that they are
>imposed in your hunting area!
>In all other instances that
>I'm aware of, whenever apr's
>have been imposed, LESS hunters
>hunt those areas! G&F will
>verify this if you ask
>them.
>
>Oh, and by the way, wth
>do you have against old
>guys??!! Is your dad old?
>How about your grandpa?? Excuse
>me if they are no
>longer with us...I apologize. Just
>making a point. Us old
>guys still feel like our
>opinions are valid; whether you
>do or not...
My issue is not with all old guys, but anytime you talk about putting in seasonal road closures, or limiting vehicle access they all get up in arms as if they will never get to hunt again. In region W the access is very easy with roads all over the place. Even in areas where there are no formal roads the ATVs can easily and do drive across country, sometimes miles and miles. I feel that this is one of the biggest factors affecting hunting quality in the area. There are some areas for walk-in in W but those get hammered by the guys actually walking.
When this was brought up at a meeting the cry was from the older guys and how this will lock them out.
That is my beef with the older guys and my beef with with younger guys is they seldom show up and never provide input.
I would love to see the Wildlife managers work with the BLM managers and create areas where all vehicle access is closed for larger areas except for game retrieval at set times. I have seen similar areas set up in other states.
nontypical
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,192
Not so sure closing more roads would deter the cross-country idiots that already break those laws, but I agree with your other thoughts.
IMO, ATV off-road use is the BIGGEST factor in the loss of mature bucks in most high-desert ecosystems!
IMO, ATV off-road use is the BIGGEST factor in the loss of mature bucks in most high-desert ecosystems!
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,341
>Not so sure closing more roads
>would deter the cross-country idiots
>that already break those laws,
>but I agree with your
>other thoughts.
>
>IMO, ATV off-road use is the
>BIGGEST factor in the loss
>of mature bucks in most
>high-desert ecosystems!
This^^^
>would deter the cross-country idiots
>that already break those laws,
>but I agree with your
>other thoughts.
>
>IMO, ATV off-road use is the
>BIGGEST factor in the loss
>of mature bucks in most
>high-desert ecosystems!
This^^^
Conrad8899
Active Member
- Messages
- 254
I will have to agree.. Close sum roads... Cut down the atv utv use... Make sum walk in areas only.. There is no way all the atv and utv. Traffic is from nonresidents... Residents are just as guilty...
elks96
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,791
>Not so sure closing more roads
>would deter the cross-country idiots
>that already break those laws,
>but I agree with your
>other thoughts.
>
>IMO, ATV off-road use is the
>BIGGEST factor in the loss
>of mature bucks in most
>high-desert ecosystems!
I agree that just making areas will not work. It would take a serious effort to patrol, and enforce. I do like the idea that certain areas are off limits to all ATVs during the season unless you have a filled tag and are returning to retrieve the animal in a specific window. I do know the one walk in area I was in last fall did not have any off road travel evidence. It was a state owned walkin area that was mixed with some private land. It was nice to hike all day long and not hear or see any evidence of ATV hunters.
I would hope that WY take a serious look at the issue and make some serious efforts to catch and prosecute. I know it may not be cost effective but plane flying high could call down to officers on ground. Have a couple officers and a plane that can move around. It would not take long and a few tickets to really change the willingness of most ATV users.
>would deter the cross-country idiots
>that already break those laws,
>but I agree with your
>other thoughts.
>
>IMO, ATV off-road use is the
>BIGGEST factor in the loss
>of mature bucks in most
>high-desert ecosystems!
I agree that just making areas will not work. It would take a serious effort to patrol, and enforce. I do like the idea that certain areas are off limits to all ATVs during the season unless you have a filled tag and are returning to retrieve the animal in a specific window. I do know the one walk in area I was in last fall did not have any off road travel evidence. It was a state owned walkin area that was mixed with some private land. It was nice to hike all day long and not hear or see any evidence of ATV hunters.
I would hope that WY take a serious look at the issue and make some serious efforts to catch and prosecute. I know it may not be cost effective but plane flying high could call down to officers on ground. Have a couple officers and a plane that can move around. It would not take long and a few tickets to really change the willingness of most ATV users.
The first thing that needs to be remembered when debating this kind of thing is this... Wyoming game and fish has not, does not, and probably NEVER will not manage any heard with a genetic or "trophey" class agenda in mind. As a matter of fact there is one sure fire way to basically end any conversation you are having with anyone from the game and fish and that is to bring up the word genetics!
So that being said I would think that it is very hard to argue that a point restriction does insure that more bucks make it through hunting season. That is their goal and I am sure it will be achieved to some extent.
To the more hot topic about if it is good for a trophy class I tend to believe it does help a little. Back when I was not old enough to hunt yet and right shortly there after the area of H that we hunted was always 4 point or better for what seemed like forever. All I know is what I saw in my own little piece of earth, but there were big bucks and a lot of them....
So that being said I would think that it is very hard to argue that a point restriction does insure that more bucks make it through hunting season. That is their goal and I am sure it will be achieved to some extent.
To the more hot topic about if it is good for a trophy class I tend to believe it does help a little. Back when I was not old enough to hunt yet and right shortly there after the area of H that we hunted was always 4 point or better for what seemed like forever. All I know is what I saw in my own little piece of earth, but there were big bucks and a lot of them....
Oh and plus 1,000,000 about what Nontypical said about genes. Haha it never ceases to amaze me how either people have no idea how genetics are passed down (from the male and the FEMALE) or people are really so he11 bent on proving their point that they will say anything to get is acrost.
>The first thing that needs to
>be remembered when debating this
>kind of thing is this...
> Wyoming game and fish
>has not, does not, and
>probably NEVER will not manage
>any heard with a genetic
>or "trophey" class agenda in
>mind. As a matter of
>fact there is one sure
>fire way to basically end
>any conversation you are having
>with anyone from the game
>and fish and that is
>to bring up the word
>genetics!
>
>So that being said I would
>think that it is very
>hard to argue that a
>point restriction does insure that
>more bucks make it through
>hunting season. That is their
>goal and I am sure
>it will be achieved to
>some extent.
+1 Spot on!
>
>To the more hot topic about
>if it is good for
>a trophy class I tend
>to believe it does help
>a little. Back when I
>was not old enough to
>hunt yet and right shortly
>there after the area of
>H that we hunted was
>always 4 point or better
>for what seemed like forever.
>All I know is what
>I saw in my own
>little piece of earth, but
>there were big bucks and
>a lot of them....
I tend to agree but a lot has changed in that area of H from then to now.
I tend to believe that if the goal is to increase the trophy size of a herd you limit the take of older age class not younger. Make it open to 3 point of less and LE for anything bigger. Utah did that in the early 90's with its elk herd and it was a dramatic shift. Before the change much of Utah elk was general tags for any bull. Then they switched to general tags only good for spikes. Prior to that Utah was not thought of as a Trophy elk state. By 2000 they were taking B&C bulls. By 2002 they were taking multiple bulls over 400".
>be remembered when debating this
>kind of thing is this...
> Wyoming game and fish
>has not, does not, and
>probably NEVER will not manage
>any heard with a genetic
>or "trophey" class agenda in
>mind. As a matter of
>fact there is one sure
>fire way to basically end
>any conversation you are having
>with anyone from the game
>and fish and that is
>to bring up the word
>genetics!
>
>So that being said I would
>think that it is very
>hard to argue that a
>point restriction does insure that
>more bucks make it through
>hunting season. That is their
>goal and I am sure
>it will be achieved to
>some extent.
+1 Spot on!
>
>To the more hot topic about
>if it is good for
>a trophy class I tend
>to believe it does help
>a little. Back when I
>was not old enough to
>hunt yet and right shortly
>there after the area of
>H that we hunted was
>always 4 point or better
>for what seemed like forever.
>All I know is what
>I saw in my own
>little piece of earth, but
>there were big bucks and
>a lot of them....
I tend to agree but a lot has changed in that area of H from then to now.
I tend to believe that if the goal is to increase the trophy size of a herd you limit the take of older age class not younger. Make it open to 3 point of less and LE for anything bigger. Utah did that in the early 90's with its elk herd and it was a dramatic shift. Before the change much of Utah elk was general tags for any bull. Then they switched to general tags only good for spikes. Prior to that Utah was not thought of as a Trophy elk state. By 2000 they were taking B&C bulls. By 2002 they were taking multiple bulls over 400".
Yup no denying what happened in Utah that is for sure!
man could you emagine if game and fish only took say 2 or 3 of the areas around here and managed just those couple for a trophy class elk and see what could happen... Not saying I would agree or disagree with doing it, but it sure would be neat to see what might come out of those areas!
man could you emagine if game and fish only took say 2 or 3 of the areas around here and managed just those couple for a trophy class elk and see what could happen... Not saying I would agree or disagree with doing it, but it sure would be neat to see what might come out of those areas!
nontypical
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,192
No weapons of any kind on an ATV should take care of that issue.
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,341
>No weapons of any kind on
>an ATV should take care
>of that issue.
No, that's not the answer, this is an open and concealed carry state and that shouldn't be infringed on because people can't stay on designated roads and trails with ATVs.
If everyone just turned these people in (I personally do not see this abuse, but I don't hunt W) and law enforcement was tougher, it wouldn't be a problem.
>an ATV should take care
>of that issue.
No, that's not the answer, this is an open and concealed carry state and that shouldn't be infringed on because people can't stay on designated roads and trails with ATVs.
If everyone just turned these people in (I personally do not see this abuse, but I don't hunt W) and law enforcement was tougher, it wouldn't be a problem.
elks96
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,791
>>No weapons of any kind on
>>an ATV should take care
>>of that issue.
>
>No, that's not the answer, this
>is an open and concealed
>carry state and that shouldn't
>be infringed on because people
>can't stay on designated roads
>and trails with ATVs.
>
>If everyone just turned these people
>in (I personally do not
>see this abuse, but I
>don't hunt W) and law
>enforcement was tougher, it wouldn't
>be a problem.
Region W has roads and 2 tracks all over the place. That is the result of 60+ years of energy explorations, seismic testing, ranching, etc. Even limiting vehicles to existing roads only alleviates a small portion of the issue. Add in existing roads to the new ones being added all the time by illegal ATV use and it gets pretty bad.
The problem with reporting illegal ATV use is 2 fold in this area. It is pretty remote and when I call in an issue it is likely to take an officer 1/2 a day to make it there even if they are already on the nearest paved road. Secondly there is no good way to identify individuals or the machines. After all I could report that it was a green side by side, but unless I get something really obvious there is no way to charge.
I have often wished that all ATVs need a plate just like a car or truck. That this plate be displayed just like a license plate on a truck or car and large enough to be seen from a distance.
Maybe someday.
>>an ATV should take care
>>of that issue.
>
>No, that's not the answer, this
>is an open and concealed
>carry state and that shouldn't
>be infringed on because people
>can't stay on designated roads
>and trails with ATVs.
>
>If everyone just turned these people
>in (I personally do not
>see this abuse, but I
>don't hunt W) and law
>enforcement was tougher, it wouldn't
>be a problem.
Region W has roads and 2 tracks all over the place. That is the result of 60+ years of energy explorations, seismic testing, ranching, etc. Even limiting vehicles to existing roads only alleviates a small portion of the issue. Add in existing roads to the new ones being added all the time by illegal ATV use and it gets pretty bad.
The problem with reporting illegal ATV use is 2 fold in this area. It is pretty remote and when I call in an issue it is likely to take an officer 1/2 a day to make it there even if they are already on the nearest paved road. Secondly there is no good way to identify individuals or the machines. After all I could report that it was a green side by side, but unless I get something really obvious there is no way to charge.
I have often wished that all ATVs need a plate just like a car or truck. That this plate be displayed just like a license plate on a truck or car and large enough to be seen from a distance.
Maybe someday.
Millsworks
Active Member
- Messages
- 481
Walk in areas definitely help if in an area that is large enough.
Can't say antler restricted areas work as well with mule deer. But, whitetails in the area's I've hunted 100% increased in age class, horn size ,and saw more bucks.
I don't think the majority of hunters can regulate themselves. After walking and hunting hard for a week without seeing a buck will cause most to shoot the first legal buck they see.
That's what happens here in my back yard, unfortunately. It saddens me that the average age whitetail buck shot here in the East is less than 2 years old. Many are sporting there first set of antlers.
Can't say antler restricted areas work as well with mule deer. But, whitetails in the area's I've hunted 100% increased in age class, horn size ,and saw more bucks.
I don't think the majority of hunters can regulate themselves. After walking and hunting hard for a week without seeing a buck will cause most to shoot the first legal buck they see.
That's what happens here in my back yard, unfortunately. It saddens me that the average age whitetail buck shot here in the East is less than 2 years old. Many are sporting there first set of antlers.
Wyoming Hunting Guides & Outfitters
Urge 2 Hunt
We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.
