SFW to propose 5% tags for a convention?!

Silentstalker

Long Time Member
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3,135
Have any of you heard about this? The rumor is that the Conservation groups of SFW, RMEF, MDF, NWTF, and FNAWS are asking for another 5% of the public's tags for a convention in the spring of future years. The only way the public would get a chance at these tags would be to attend and donate to the groups. They will be proposing this to the RAC's at the next set of meetings.

Is anybody besides me sick of these groups taking more and more of the public's permits? I would be okay with this if it were the 5% they already get but if it is an additional 5% for a total of 10% then I am opposed to it. Can anyone clarrify this for me?

I am the first in line to help the conservation of habitat and the future of wildlife but the tag numbers are hard enough to get as it is. I hope they are not trying to take more.

Have a great day.

Chad
 
About half the tags will come out of the nonresident's current 10%.
You don't have to donate to any group.You simply apply for as many or all the tags that are approved.You pay a $5 app fee,no points.no waiting periods.Instead of application fees going to Nevada the conservation groups split the funds for their projects.This will help raise the $5 million A YEAR needed in matching funds to get the federal money for sagebrush restoration on federal lands.(and many other projects that are needed.)
These projects need to get completed in the next 4 years while we have a wildlife friendly president.
You simply attend the convention apply in person for what and as many permits as you want.This will bring thousands of nonresidents to Utah, as well as give the average resident hunters alot more chances to draw tags.We will have tons more oppertunity for tons more tags than ever before, for a mere $5
a pop.Kind of like the sportsman draw x over 100 tags if you want.
WIN FOR WILDLIFE!!!!
WIN FOR SPORTSMEN!!!!
WIN FOR CONSERVATION GROUPS!!!!!
WIN FOR LIVESTOCK THAT WILL GRAZE ON RESTORED LANDS!!!!!
BECAUSE IT WILL BE HUGE WILDLIFE TYPE EXPO IT WILL HELP THE UTAH ECONOMY.LIKE THE ELK FOUNDATION CONVENTION ONLY 5 TIMES BIGGER.
LOOSE FOR NEVADA DRAWING COMPANY!!!!ALL MONEY STAYS IN UT.

ATTEND YOUR RAC AND HEAR TOTAL PROPOSAL BEFORE WE JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS. IT WAS PRESENTED TO NORTHEAST RAC AND THEY PASSED IT.
THE ONLY GUYS THAT VOTED AGAINST IT WERE STOCKMEN.GO FIGURE!!!

338
 
Where is this proposal posted at?? Newspaper or the DWR site or??? Gotta read it to see what it is about.
 
Merry Chrismas SS. :)

Oh my Gawd! Another RAC meeting?

I am at a loss for words. ;-)

I can't even think of anything to say.

5% of NR tags? Boy that should go over well with USO (we do have Karl Malone working on that one) and make us Utahns the bastard non-resident of the west.

I thought I remember SFW saying they were not trying for more conservation tags?

I thought the whole reason behind the elk changes was to provide more opportunity?

I too would like to read something official before getting all worked up.
 
Merry Christmas to you and yours KTC!

338 I can't see how taking 5% more tags from the general tags is good for sportsmen. How many are you going to ask for next year? Or the year after that? I say take your 5% percent you currently get and continue to sell them to all the rich guy's. Leave the draws alone! Every year we continue to have more and more tags taken away from sportsmen and used to further the causes of SFW, MDF, etc. If they want support they need to seek donations, not steal the public's permits. I don't understand this proposal at all. Just my 2 cents! Have a great day!

Chad
 
There is no loss in tags to the average sportsman. Instead of sending 5 bucks to Nevada, we apply in person at this convention/expo. Tags will cost the same if you draw. Res. and nonres. will have same oppurtunity at tags which helps Utah in the USO situation. Plus it gets the conservation groups working together more then ever before. You wont have to pay any entrance fees to any convention in order to apply
 
This proposal is good in that it takes the $5.00 application fee and dumps it into Utah wildlife and also brings tourism dollars.

Now the bad, since I have been a volunteer for a conservation group will I be exempt from this drawing?? Who will do the drawing, are we going to put names in a barrel and pull out the winners??? Will these vouchers be transferrable I could see a scenario where a person would hire people to apply and then purchase the drawn tag then re sell it to a paying client??
What if a hunter lives a long way from Salt Lake is it fair for them to reduce their chances at drawing by 5% or make them drive to Salt Lake to keep the same odds.

The reason that really sends me over the edge is that the AR-301 hunt was shut down by one of these " sportsmen " groups because of waiting periods and bonus points, Now they want to take 5% of all tags and remove the bonus points and waiting periods rule. Now all of the sudden since it will benefit them it is ok to not have points or waiting periods, What about a guy like KTC that has been putting in for ever for one of these tags and to be told that the guy that drew last year also drew this year.

The conservation tag allotment is close to 300 tags already
now these groups want to essentially control 188 more general public tags, if you would like to show that you are not just for the rich put up 5% of the conservation tags to a $5.00 raffle at your banquets. Don't make the general public jump through any more hoops to have a shot at drawing a tag.
 
This strikes in an odd way.

This would be like me having to travel to Denver and go to a convention to hunt Colorado? In all fairness, this is not right to a non-resident. Hell, a resident for that matter. Why should a guy from St. George have to travel to Salt Lake? To draw a public wildlife tag? What if the guy is in the hospital? Has to work? Has a sick kid? Cannot afford the time or money to travel a long distance and spend the night?

This whole thing, if I am understanding it right, is very self-serving and limits opportunity and fairness of the allocation of a public resource.

I am absolutely FOR waiting periods if you hunt an LE. I personally did not like the 301 because of this very reason. Now, they find another way around it? Many have waited, some are waiting, and hopefully one day I will wait.

I hope this is not true and just some sort of joke. A convention attendance scheme to hunt public lands. Give me a break. I personally don't feel like congregating with the camo clad masses to draw out. I like $5, a stamp, and my sanity.

What is this the next best thing to the Peppermill and Rainbow? Utah's gambling experience courtesy of the RAC? Just like Wendover walk in with money and walk out broke. At least Wendover feeds ya all of the beer you can stand. Will drinks be served?
 
338, I think you did a good job of briefing us. For those people who believe it will take more of there (pubic tags) away. What about thinking of our kids and there chance to hunt 10-30 years from now. We are loosing winter range/habitat and our range conditions are poor in many areas from drought. If you think we can continue to offer the same number of permits in 10-15 years that we offer now with out a huge investment in habitat, especially winter range I think you're crazy. Think of the winter range we have lost the last 15-20 years. If we can get matching federal funds. It may be a good time to try this. At least listen at the RAC's and then decide. None of these permits will be auctioned. It will be a draw. I see the main shaft is the non-resident. About 1/2 of non-resident tags would be done at the convention. If we don't have enough habitat to sustain herds in 5-10 years and they cut herd size. They will cut permit numbers. With 1 million more people in the state in 10 years, what will our odds for drawing going to be then????? Less than 10% of sportmen and women go to banquets and help with the cause. This may reward those who are willing to get off there butts and do something. I hav'nt heard the whole scoop yet. However, let's be open minded. Greg
 
I don't understand why these groups try to screw everything up! I recall that limited entry permits and general permits were raised a whole bunch this year, and you know what I am stupid enough to pay it just like the rest of us because I love our wildlife and our state.

You know if the DWR needs to raise 5 million dollars why dont we all donate 5 or 10 dollars this way the draws dont get screwed up any more than they allready are!!!!

I would like to know how many and how much they get donated to them every year through the draws.
 
Huntin 101,

You make some great points about the condition of range conditions. They absolutly need an overhaul and lots of help. No one on this site is against enhancing habitat! We simply don't want to see anymore tags taken from the general public for this purpose. Resident or non resident. No one should have to attend a convention to get an opportunity at these tags. If these groups want to take the tags they are already alotted and put them up for a drawing for 5$ a pop then lets get it on! Just dont take away any more opportunity. There are plenty of other ways to raise money. Maybe they should cut back the salaries of some of these groups. Just a thought.

Chad
 
Just got home from the RAC DIDN'T SEE ANY OF YOU THERE!!

Some info
1- BILL CHRISTENSEN from the elk foundation did a great job with the presentation.
2- no membership required to any group to apply for tags.
3- no entrance fee to convention required.
4-you can apply only once per unit- one to one odds. the rich guys can't put in any more times than us
5-you can apply for all units and spicies once.
6-you don't have to be involved at all.
7- half the tags come from nonres allication so utah residents
could and will draw them (some)so there are MORE tags for residents if they come apply.
8- all the money goes to conservation groups to get things done.
9-right now I can put in for 1 limited entry tag and 1 once in a life time in utah.If this passes I could apply for approx. say 50 more chances if I want.so my oppertunity just increased a ton to draw,notice I didn't say odds cause I din't know how many people
really want to support the future of wild life in utah.
10-you can spin this any way you want but if you haven't seen the proposal for yourself go to a RAC meeting and see,hear,
question,ponder.I'm more convinced tonight than last night.

BUT PLEASE FOCUSS ON THE FUTURE.DON'T GO THINKING OF ONLY YOURSELF. WORRY ABOUT THE FACT YOUR ONLY GOING TO DRAW ONCE ANYWAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM.
THE # ONE CONTROLLING FACTOR FOR THE FUTURE IS HABITAT.
DO WE HAVE A WINDOW OF OPPERTUNITY NOW!!!!
DO WE WANT TO PAY OUR OWN WAY OR HAGGLE OVER WHO GETS THIS TAG OR THAT TAG.THE FEDERAL LAND AGENCIES HAVE PROVEN WITH OUT QUESTION WHERE THE STAND.ARE WE WOULDN'T BE IN THE MESS WE'RE
IN NOW.
ARE YOU (WE) AS SPORTSMEN AND WOMEN GOING TO CONTINUE TO WATCH
THE FEDS DO NOUTHING WHILE OUR DEER AND ELK HERDS CONTINUE TO DECLINE,LOOSE HABITAT,DECREASE TAGS.ECT....
I HOPE NOT!!!
WE'LL SQUABLE OVER 100-150 TAGS WHILE THOUSANDS OF ACERES DIE
EACH YEAR.JUST SO YOU DON'T DRAW A TAG BEFORE ME MENTALITY.
I HAVE NEVER DRAWN A LE.TAG
I PUT $20 DOLLARS IN A BOTTLE TONIGHT SO IN 06 I HOPE TO HAVE $500 SAVED TO SPEND OR WHAT EVER THEY WILL LET ME.

THE SOUTHEAST RAC PASSED THIS TONIGHT WITH ONLY ONE OPPOSED,
YEA YOU GUSSED IT THE CATTLEMAN ON THE RAC.LATER THE DWR SHOWED
A PROJECT OF REMOVING PINION & JUNIPER AND PLANT SEEDING.AND I THINK IT WAS ON HIS ALOTMENT.
THE STOCKMEN AREN'T GOING TO DO HABITAT.

WHO IS?????
YOU AND I ARE BECAUSE NOBODY CARES MORE THAN YOU & I
PLEASE DON'T TAKE OFFENCE, I BELIVE THIS IS A VERY GOOD AND IMPORTANT THING OR I WOULDN'T BE HERE AFTER MIDNITE.
I HAVEN'T GIVEN ALL THE DETAILS CAUSE I HAVE TO WORK EARLY.
(I HAVE A FAMILY AND A BIG WIFE TO FEED !!!!)



338
 
So the popular vote shot down Initiative One and now this is what they are trying to do to backdoor the popular vote decision??

I read it and I saw all the tag allocations and it is not osmething that has me jumping cartwheels over.

Plus it is deceptive in the fact that it states 95% of the public draw tags will remain in the draw prosess but WAIT a minute if they already have 5% and now want another 5% for this.......... to me thats already cutting the tags down to 90% for the public tags and in the FUTURE they will want more and then a little more and before ya know it.........

See ya in Brigham City thursday nite.
 
That would cut NR tags by half! We get one out of 20 tags? That seems a little unfair. But I get the privilege of giving up all my hunting time to come from Ohio so I get a chance at the "missing" half on the NR tags? I get 2 weeks vacation a year, between family, side buisiness, hunting at home, and one elk hunt a year I would have to eliminate the elk hunt to try to come out and draw a tag, which I would not be able to use because I used all my vacation time to get it!

Not to mention everyone does not have an equal chance at a tag, joe rich guy can buy 1,000 chances, think joe car mechanic can?

There is no other way to interpret what you said other then those with more cash to spend get better chances at tags taken away from NR.

That plan is a load of bull

DonV
 
338 as for not seeing us there, here in Ohio there is a RMEF banquet coming up, how about you mail be the $100 for a seat and fly up? Heck you can even stay at my house for free and aftwards I can take you to Walmart to buy a deer tag and you can go straight out hunting, no draw, no taking half your tags away.

Other changes you mentioned are good.

Guys as a NR I have been trying very very hard and sacrificing a great deal to try to hunt out west, I have been turned down for about 100 out of 100 tags. It has been 6 years and I have seen odds get much worse just in that time. Taking away half my chances make it so hard to pull a tag I most likely never, ever, will.

So much for me ever making it your state to hunt with Robb!

It is good you can only apply for each unit once but there can be many units, how much would it cost to put in the maximum chances? ie put in for every hunt I possibly could.
 
I agree with silent stalker, I am very much for habitat improvement and see the reasoning behind it but having to attend a convention to apply is very very biased.
 
You can read Don Peay's perspective in a letter on the SFW website. I'm someone that has been dead set against the consevation permit concept from the beginning. I agree that its a great way to raise money for important causes. I just hated the fact that it took opportunity away from all hunters in favor of the few. That being said , I think this proposal is a great Idea. Maybe the consevation orgs have been listening to the complaints. Its hard to gain support from the blue collar , working class if he feels he's just getting sold out. Rob its just taking 5% of the public permits. That other 5% has been gone for years through legislative action and it's not coming back. This proposal puts the 188 permits in anybodies hands not just the wealthy. Its a fair way to all to raise alot of money for habitat.The 50% of the permits coming from the nonresidents is confusing. Maybe 338boy could explain. It doent seem fair to me and in the after math of USO could be an issue. I know that nonresidents or should I say affluent nonresidents have ample opportunity in Utah but the 50% is really discrminating .Or is it? A nonresident can come to Utah after he failed to draw and have an equal chance at the consevation permits. All the tags would be a long shot for all, but it would be a fun way to raise some big money for a great cause. Yup I like it.
 
Well boy, all you did was cement my thoughts that this, once again, is completely stupid.

They need money? Charge $10 to apply and take the $5 off the top. More money, more tags, more opportunity.

Just because you have 2 avenues to draw doesn't mean squat. Take the tags, then you, me, and 20,000 other people can attend the convention, and your odds of drawing the conservation tags suck worse than the regular draw. Sure apply for everything. So will everyone else.

Backdoor to Initiative 1. Sounds like good reasoning to me. Why do conservation groups have a monopoly on the state owned wildlife? You shouldn't HAVE to belong. It's optional.

We whine about DWR waste. What about conservation group waste? Looks to me some fat could be cut there.

"Just taking 5%" Are you kidding me? Have your boss take away "just 5%" of your salary and tell me it is "just 5%."
 
I'd like to read the proposal for myself, where can I do this? Are you really saying I have to attend a convention to apply for these tags? Can you apply without being there? What about the guy who has to work that night etc? This sounds like one of the most unfair proposals I've heard in a long time. This would unfairly limit peoples oppertunity to apply for these tags. You can apply for a tag at age fourteen. How is a fourteen yearold going to get to one of these conventions? I could go on but first I'd like to get these questions answered.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-04 AT 09:23AM (MST)[p]RAC Meeting Agenda - Fill the Delta Center
Email Sent By Don Peay on December 12th, 2004

National, Regional, and State leaders of RMEF, SFW, SFH, MDF, NWTF, and Utah FNAWS and FNAWS had an awesome two hour meeting to finalize the agreement on a proposal that will be made to the Utah RAC boards this week, and the Wildlife Board on Jan. 4, 2005.

In a nutshell, 5% of total Utah permits (50% of these permits will come from resident pool, 50% from non-resident pool) will be taken out of the Internet drawing beginning in 2006. The remaining 95% of the Utah permits will still be on line, with all the bonus points and waiting periods etc as is done currently for Utah big game drawing.

Hunters will have to come and apply in person for 188 if Utah?s awesome permits at this joint National/Regional Convention in SLC May 3-8, 2008 - best dates we could get for the Salt Palace Convention Hall. Dates are mid April for 2007 and beyond. You can see all the application rules in attached Word document.

Bottom line, this has the potential to save the Conservation Industry millions of dollars in Airline, travel, hotel fees and three weeks of time.

It has the potential to bring a whole bunch more sportsmen to be involved in conservation (you have to come to the convention to apply for 188 permits)

It has the potential to bring tens of millions of dollars to Utah tourism and conservation funding.

It has the potential to bring tremendous awareness to hunting and conservation issues.

It has the potential to UNITE conservation groups like never before, and everyone wins, a rising tide lifts all boats.

It has the potential to bring in a super star or two like Karl Malone and George Strait to fill the Delta Center.

The Boards of the National Groups will meet in Jan. to discuss and finalize their groups level of participation in this Western States Big Game and Gobbler Conservation Convention. Some groups may still have a National Convention east of Mississippi or else where, but the Utah Convention would become a major Western Regional Convention.

There are a couple more awesome opportunities that will hopefully come out in the Utah Legislative Session - more on that in Jan.

This event will become the "Superbowl" week for sportsmen that love to hunt big game and gobblers in the western United States.

Everyone who has looked at this in detail sees it as a huge win/win/win event for conservation, business, sportsmen.

Bill Christensen of RMEF and Troy Justenson and Jon Bair of SFW will be making the presentation to the RAC Boards this week around the state of Utah.

Jon Leonard of State NWTF will help in northern RAC. I hope the RAC boards vote in favor of this proposal. The meetings are Monday night in Vernal, Tuesday in Green River, Weds, in Beaver, and Thursday in Brigham City and SLC. Check dwr Website for sure.

I will be in DC this next week. I have some very high level meetings with key Bush Admin. Folks. Weds. Night Susan and I are the two people from Utah at President and Laura Bush?s Christmas party in the Whitehouse. Some additional awesome things could come out of this weeks meetings.

If you can, get out and support the RAC meetings. The potential is huge, if everyone can see the big picture and check all the egos in at the door.

It should be mentioned that Doug Eck helped bring the major groups together three years ago in Seattle for their Seattle fundraiser. This model has proven it can work. It puts a lot more money on the ground for wildlife.

Don


There ya go. No joke. I will save my $20 membership fee, walk in apply, and get the hell out. I will do what I have to to hunt, but no double dipping my pocket.

I cannot believe this stuff is proposed with no input from the "sportsman's voice."
 
What a bunch of dog droppings.Maybe Nevada, Idaho,New Mexico,Arizona,Wyoming and Alaska can do the same thing?Non residents get it porked to them again,thats my feelings....Devlin
 
Thanks ktc
I agree with all your comments. There has to be a fair way to raise this money where everyone has the same opportunity to draw these tags. We're talking about our natural resources being available to everyone, not the people who are able to make it to a convention. I'm all for raising money for habitat and hunters opportunity but I dont want to have to drive fifteen hours to do it. If this does pass there needs to be a way to apply through the mail .
There also needs to be a cap on how many tags can be awarded to this type of a draw.
Bottom line- I'm sure these peoples hearts are in the right place but it doesn't seem fair to me to reserve these tags for the people who are able to make this convention.
 
One more thing. ;-)

10% to non-residents (which is right), 5% to conservation (ok with that), 5% to "special elk" (which is BS), now 5% more to conservation. That is 25% of YOUR tags being taken away. 25%! Nonresidents are taking it in the shorts even worse.

I hope as a Utard I can enjoy hunting neighboring states without problem. You guys can hate Utards, but don't hate me because I do not agree with this. Ego or no ego, the allocation of tags which I have spent years applying for, building points for, are dwindling fast. They make elk changes to provide opportunity, then opportunity goes away just as fast as it comes.

Go to the RAC. Get mad, throw a fit. It won't matter, because the decisions are made and no one cares what a grunt thinks. Remember the elk changes?

Come on Don. Change the application amount to $10 and skim the $5 off of the top. It accomplishes more without all of the hoopla and back patting. I don't need a superbowl, nor do I care to meet Karl Malone (I would like to meet George Strait, but not at a fiasco like this), people are well aware you are going to the Whitehouse Christmas Party, I just hunt because I want to. I contribute to your group to "help." Now this? No one will cut tags to help deer, but there will be a convention instead. I just don't get it. I guess I cannot see the "big picture."
 
I agree it would be better to simply raise the app fees $5 a pop. Lots of extra cash then.

Or maybe simply allow everyone to apply for all species? Everyone would put in twice the apps (or more) so that is twice the app fees. Just a thought.

The way I read it NR would loose 25% of there tags, considering poor odds, which were made a lot worse by CC apps, this makes any good tag hundreds to one.

They need more bow tags to give more guys time to hunt without harvesting a lot of game.
 
Not only did they ask for it, SFW got it.

After getting beat at his own game this year with the conservation tags by his former banquet and fund raiser person. The Don King Pen went to the UDWR after all the conservation organizations fought for the tags and had it 'all worked out' amongst themselves as directed by the Wildlife Board, went and got 13 additional elk tags awarded to his organization SFW. This because we are going to increase the elk tags this year and drop the 7-8 year old age classed to 5-6 and we are going to all of a sudden have some many more extra tags that there will all of a sudden be more conservation tags for elk on all of the units.

Of course this is all just rumor mind you.

Un real........
 
How did this group obtain more tags without going through the auction process with all the other groups?? I really hope this is not true
 
You mean the Superbowl, Karl Malone, and George Strait are coming to SLC? Am I supposed to be excited, or is this just another big build up to get us to buy in?

I think there has been enough Karl Malone name dropping by Don. The only benefit I see that Karl brings to hunting is taking someone's wife home so they have more time in the field. Otherwise, let's send someone to Washington that is educated in wildlife management.

I would imagine George Strait's name was mentioned because Don was singing "I got some ocean front property in Arizona" as he was drawing up this proposal. :)

As I read through Don's message, I couldn't help but notice how many times the word "potential" comes up. This makes me laugh because everyone on this board is a potential President of the United States. If that doesn't scare you, I don't know what will. :)

When the big debate was on about quality and opportunity for Utah's elk, there was a lot of guys concerned about the amount of tags that never found there way into the public drawing because of the different groups and landowner permits. I guess no one was listening.

It looks to me this is just another way to cut opportunity in an effort to recover from Initiative 1 as previously mentioned. Keep one thing in mind, once something is given out in this game, it is awfully hard to take it back.

I hope I have some real "potential" to draw an elk tag next year. This is getting rediculous.
 
From my view, it is not this proposal (and others) that are the problem. It is the whole RAC meeting process. They (sportsmens groups) do what they want, control the agenda and are fully aware and count on the fact that the majority of sportsmen will not be able to attend. They do not have to deal with the majority voice.

I have heard it a million times how I (and thousands of others) do not care about Utah's wildlife because I can't attend all of the meetings. Isn't it obvious that there is a flaw in the RAC process? How can public policy be made without knowing, or at least attempting to know the opinion of the majority?

Here's an idea (or a nightmare to the sportsmens groups): Idaho has a system on their website that allows them to ask the public for input (a poll) on upcoming proposals. Make this option available to all previous big game license holders (residents and non-residents) to voice their opinion before a vote is made on the proposal at a RAC meeting. Also make the results of the vote available for all to see. Now you have a true sportmen's voice.

If these proposals still pass then we really have no room to complain because at least the DWR "attempted" to collect the public's opinion.

Don't like the RAC process? Share your opinion/ideas with someone that has the power to do something about it: http://www.governor.utah.gov/goca/form_governor.html
 
I dug this out of the archives. PEAY TO HUNT, by runner. It seemed to me we had argued this before and we had.


1.Plan to take 30% of limited entry tags and make them conservation tags to go to the highest bidder.(againts the dwr's wishes)Right now it is 5%
2. Each sportsmen in the state can only hunt 1 brown animal a year. example: either deer or elk not both.
3.Rich man can "PEAY" and have many tags in 1 year including multiple of the same species.
4. CWMU's get 2 months to hunt with weapon of choice while average hunter gets dictated when and how they can hunt.
5.If you "PEAY" enough you can hunt all 3 seasons on limited entry elk.
6.As Don himself said on this site, "bioligists don't manage wildlife politicians do".

Looks like #1, #5, #6 have come to pass. Depending on how #1 is structured, it appears #3 is good to go too. I laughed at #1 when this was posted and thought this guy was nuts. Then I am told, Nah, that will never happen. Is this the big picture?

Complain to, or about, the RAC? Hah! Good Luck! Go say all you want. They have decided and the RAC is a formality that says we looked at public input. Sportsman groups and the RAC are working as one. The RAC does what they are told to do.

I really like the elk changes for "potential" opportunity. We lost 10% of the tags people. 5% to this and 5% to "premium" elk hunting. Gawd I hope I can draw next year.

Could someone tell me why one person, or a small group that had a great meeting, is controlling each citizen of Utah's wildlife?
 
For those wanting to raise application fees.It's agood idea,but it's not legal to charge more for the app than the actual cost to process them.(Contact Marty Bushman at DWR for info)

DonV I've already been to OHIO this year and hunted.Got my tags at JIM'S BAIT SHOP IN PROCTERVIL hunted near there.Email your phone # to me I'd like to talk about trading an elk hunt with you.

ktc I'm still trying to do a fundraiser to buy you a pavahant tag.I've recived about as much money as the DWR has recived from the donation check off box on the applications.Hang in there I think there is chance these guy's will come through.(send donations to po box 787 Castle Dale Ut. 84513)
I'm glad you joined a conservation group.

Besides conservation groups who is doing anything for wildlife?The DWR does what they can with a limited budget.

Lets spred the wealth here a little RMEF BILL CHRISTENSEN ,FNAWS RYAN FOUTZE ,MDF INCLUDING TONY ABBOTT,NWTF, SFW JOHN BAIR, DON PEAY AND GOV ELECT HUNTSMAN,AND MANY OTHERS SUPPORT THIS.BUT WE ATTACK DON PEAY.

AMERICANS LOVE SUCCESS BUT THEY HATE SUCCESSFULL PEOPLE!!!!!!

Lets face it hunters are strange people nobody thought we could unite sportsmen to get prop 5 passed several years ago but we did
and we got it done.WHY because sportsmen UNITED.
These conservation group leaders have enough gumpshin to get off their a's to help wildlife,they spend more time working for us than they do hunting,and we're pissed.
Who's mad about all the wild turkey?Who's mad about all the bighorn's?Who's mad about all the coyote's we're killing this winter? who's mad abought the super quality elk we have?Who's mad that fawn crop's are up this year?The answer to these questions is NOBODY !!,But we're mad at the guys that are making it happen.If we're mad at them them let's be mad at them ALL,not just one.



There are other way's to raise funds for habitat, this is one way also.All the sugestions mentioned by all of you have been discussed with no results.
What we want to do, and what we can do is sometimes miles appart.
If this is ALL of our wildlife then let us take responsibilty and ALL of us help to protect and improve it.History proves habitat is needed before wildlife thrives.
In the long term wildlife benifits the most with the proposal.As it should be.

boy
 
Gentlemen, we all seem to agree that the habitat needs some help, correct? Now to conserve and protect habitat takes money, correct? And it seems to be a common thread that losing more tags is ridiculous, correct? If the SFW, MDF, RMEF, and others want to really help the habitat and animals then I have a challenge to them. According to the Utah Gov't website, the gross taxable sales in Utah in 2003 was $32,560(in millions). If they use their pull and lobby and get the legislature to impose a statewide sales tax increase of 1/2 of 1%, that would total $162,800,000. Now mind you, I'm a plumber so someone check my math and correct me if I'm wrong. Since the wildlife in Utah belongs to the "People" I figure that the people should help support and nurture it. According to the DWR website, their annual budget is about $48 mil and 46% of that comes from the sale of tags and licenses. How about we let the rest of the non-permit buying public who also own the wildlife they enjoy looking at help pay that bill? If these groups really care about habitat and the animals then lets get to the legislature. I've had it with give us more tags to auction or whatever. Hell I've got several friends from out of State who really enjoy coming out to hunt but with the cost of the hunt the poor dirt farmers can't afford to go to some damn convention to gamble on a tag. What is the cost of even getting in the door at the convention? Another way to help raise revenue is the wildlife liscense plates. I pay $25.00 a year that goes straight to the DWR. How many others help in this way. Greed begets greed and power begets power but the wise and righteous man uses his greed and power to benefit all. Thanks for letting me vent. And once again, just my .02 cents.
 
338,

There are several problems with this proposal in my mind.

#1 Conservation groups had 5% already, now they want 5% more. Where does it end? I will lay down odds that it doesn't stop at 10%.

#2 If it is ALL of our wildlife and we ALL need to support it and get involved, why do they want to exclude almost all the non residents and a lot of residents that may not be able to attend. If there is no cover charge to get in to the convention, or cost to apply, why exclude the public at large? If we could ALL aply you could raise POTENTIALLY a lot more money!

#3 If getting the 5$ application fee back to Utah is such a big deal why don't these groups band together and get the regular draw? If they are really after that 5$ from Nevada I am sure plenty of the sportsmen could volunteer to help with the draws. I know KTC, Bobcatbess, and I would love to help draw. We would do it for free also!

As far as Don P goes, everyone gets mad at him because he is the driving force behind all of this. There are plenty that support it because they dare not get in his way.

Any time you steal from the general public you are wrong. Stealing these permits from the general public is wrong. Take your normal allotment and ask for more as permits are added but don't take from the public. My main issue with this is that they are taking tags that don't belong to special interest groups and I can see this growing until they have a substantial amount of tags. The overall idea behind it is fine with me. I just hate to see the public lose at the RAC's every time.
 
boy,

Thanks for your interest and efforts in buying me a Pahvant conservation tag. I thank you very much.

However, just have them put it in the public draw and I will go after it that way.

Thanks again for your thoughtfulness.
 
SS

2- All our wildlife to me means residents of the state.

1- the proposal has a five year cap.With a net loss(if fixing deer habitat is a loss in your eyes)of 2 1/2 % tags to residents + chances at non res tags = gain for residents.No one will be excluded if they choose to attend and apply.The convention will last several day's including sat& sun.
This could establish a presadence if the USO thing comes to utah.

If all have to apply in person this will mean more tags for residents because more residents will apply.

Lets look at some facts.
1- Last year at the legislature. A bill was introduced,$250,000 over the next ten years.For turkeys
They released over 100 turkeys this week in carbon county I don't now how many state wide.
2- Two years enough cattle grazing permits were bought to double the bison herd, as drought conditions allow.
3- Quota lion tags implamented on wasatch front 81 lions dead in two years,(dwr said they could not kill 10.(go look at the deer herd there now.)
4- Prop 5!!!!
5- State wide coyote bounty .
6- $500,000 to wildlife services for coyote control.Saw them flying the manti high country last week .57 dead coyotes last year there.
7- Early 90's too many deer hunters, sportsmen march on capital tags cut 60%
8- SPORTSMEN FOR BUSH bet you can't guss where that came from.(there were enough sportsmen in Ohio to swing the vote there.)
9-Dedicated hunter program.
10-3,000,000 to fence and put cross-unders near Beaver Ut.
(thousands of saved deer)
11-Conservation permit program .(about 4 million last year for projects)
12- 1993 DWR budget about 23 mill last year about 43 mill.

Yea this DON PEAY guy is real dangerous.I'm sorry these accomplishments are so offencive to so many .

R.A.C.'S

I'm behind some real reform here much is needed.
1- Five rac's with about 15 members each 2 sportsmen on each rac.
75 people 10 sportsmen rep's.IF sportsmen generate 95% of the funding then why don,t they have more say in hunting rules and policy?

As mentioned eairler if the genral public would support wildlife
we could support a lot of things.I don't think they are going to voulenter much support.Just like sportsmen haven't voulentered as much as is needed.
It comes back on us every time.So we use the the thing we love most to protect the thing we love most.And yes there is a sacrifice to accomplish some things.
I'm waiting to draw my first LE tag (who ever dies wiyh the most points wins)
I spent the day in the coal mine to make a living.
I have 4 kid's in collage.I'd rather hunt than ANYTHING and I mean anything,(ask my wife about that.)I think I'm a pretty average guy trying to be involved to make things better.The last perfect guy to walk this earth is where I turn when nobody else can help me.
With that in mind even if we don't agree on everything I'd like to wish you and all of you MERRY CHRISTMAS.

338
 
Prop 5 has been turned upside down with the way SFW went thru the legislature to make it Law on the super high new hunting fees. Now it would take 65% of the popular vote to get our resident fees reasonable again. Never happen, we are screwed and it will only go UP again and again just like this 5% new tag scam. More for them hiding behind the Habitat Issue and less for us....... ya make some great debate 338 and we can feel your passion about it and thanks for being up front and logical.

The whole Habitat Issue is basically turning into another Marketing catch phrase, kinda like 'Can Ya Hear Me Now' or 'Brilliant' or 'I'll Be Back' it is basically just a if ya don't agree your anti wildlife and habitat.
 
boy,

Don has done some good things and has influence.

Look at the original post heading. Why are people pissed off? Because this is a dream by a few guys in a good meeting and passes the Northern RAC and we wonder if it is rumor! Is Don and the RAC representing us? No!

On #3 you state Don fixed the Wasatch and lion problem. You can only hunt there with a bow buddy. Secondly, I hunt the Wasatch and it sucks where you can hunt with a rifle! Same place the over-priced range maggots were released. Too many tags mean anything?

I cannot gut one more "coyote" story.

Are you telling me hunters determined the presidential outcome? Ohio had bigger fish to fry. I would gues the city folks in Columbus, Cinncinnati, Cleveland, Akron, and Dayton determined that outcome.

We try year after year to draw out. We get on MM and explain our thoughts, trying to get ifo, study the draw sheets, hoping to draw. Hell, I have planned my LE elk hunt every year for 20 something years, but have not gone yet. You say the guy with the most points wins when they die. You say something needs to be done. Take more tags away from the public to make money. That will help.

Earlier it was mentioned people are jealous. People are not jealous, they just get tired of being hinted at their stupidity, selfish because they don't follow the leader, and we all know who the ONLY 2 people from Utah are going to the Whitehouse Christmas Party. We have been told this over and over and over. We are told we can rub elbows with Malone. Wow. Bring Kirilenko in and maybe I will slightly care. Probably not though. Boozer is from Alaska, maybe he can be our next wildlife superstar that gets to hunt our public lands with our permits while we sit on the bench and watch with our points in our pockets.

Gawd I like SS on my side. ;-)
 
This is good stuff, and I thought I needed the Bob and Tom show for a good laugh in the morning!!

Around 20 or so years ago a retiring wildlife biologist from Arizona wrote, "Wildlife agencies and groups have historically been unable to overcome political problems in time to deal with important controversial issues. And most politicians are too uninformed or ignorant about wildlife issues to make sound decisions.... Hunters, ranchers, and preservationists will continue to fiddle with inconsequential and divisive issues while the landscapes around us are consumed."

He must have had a vision of this thread when he wrote that.

Inconsequential and divisive issues?? Hmmm, like elk tags, banquets, arguments in RAC meetings...

The most powerful player in the Utah wildlife scene only occasionally mentions wildlife between his boastings and name droppings... Hunters are divided and will likely remain so, and while these arguments are going on, while the RAC meetings are going on, and the banquets, and the Christmas parties in Washington DC...

Another couple of acres of good habitat was bulldozed under up on Traverse Ridge and no one noticed... or another couple of elk were run down by a pack of wolves, and another nice buck was run over by a truck going 75 mph.

Another quote by this wildlife biologist: "Do you really believe, looking at the vastness of the land, that agencies, biologists, or politicians really have anything positive to do with wildlife management? Do you honestly think the little knot of people shuffling papers, making power plays, worrying about agency politics and spending their days in offices, totally isolated from nature, really have anything to do with the amount of forage, or the number of deer?"

Go plan your banquets, go fight over your tags, go get Karl Malone's autograph and meet Kobe's wife, uh I mean Karl's wife, and go to your Christmas parties and shuffle papers and stare out your office window... and do all your other INCONSEQUENTIAL and divisive things... while the landscapes around you are consumed.

Well, thanks for the comedy fix and someone save me a place in line to meet Karl. I don't want his autograph, I want the cell phone number for Kobe's wife. Damn KTC, you are a trouble maker aren't you? This site has you they don't need me anymore. :) :)
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-04 AT 04:29PM (MST)[p]Dawg

You and only you could get me to post on this site, hell I have not even looked at this site in 3 months and when I do I see the same things I saw 3 months ago and 3 years ago. Dawg I know what makes the world go round and so do you "MONEY" it's a damn shame but it is the truth. I think the convention is a pretty good idea and in concept I support it. Now with that being said it has alot of tuning needed.

I spoke with Miles Moretti the DWR director about this idea and he informend me that it is something the Govenor elect "huntsman" likes. Tourism and driving buisness to Utah is a priority for him. The DWR answers to the govener and the GOV said look into making this happen. The rac's are a process that this needs to pass as well as the wildlife board. I think the idea is a good one but the bottom line needs to be is it good for wildlife? or is it bad for wildlife? This is not about my chance's of drawing or yours, this is about an event that would bring millions of dollars to utah's economy and wildlife.

I see pros and cons of an event like this, as you may already know I represent the Mule Deer Foundation and they are active in looking at this event from all sides, I believe the rac's are only voting on this as a concept but I may be wrong. Remember when the big todo about hunting on Antelope Island went around the state? Well the rac's and wildlife board voted on it to happen in concept, yet I don't recall any permits being issued.

I definatly believe We as sporstmen need to look into this convention and see what good and bad may or may not come from it.

By the way, it sure is nice not posting on the internet and spending that time with my kids. After all, that is all I am in this for anyway.

Tony Abbott
 
338,

You make some great points and have done some great things with all that money. I am sure none of us helped with any of those projects, it was just you and Don! Some of us help too. I still think it is wrong to take permits from the public. I don't like the fact that they can take 5% last year, 10 % this year and 30% in 7 years. How do we know it will end here? I am not against habitat or this convention, just don't take the permits from the public!?

As for the RAC's, I agree with you. They need reform. We all get up and voice our oppinions and then they vote the way they want anyway. It is tough to attend them all and miss time with my little kids and know that my voice really doesn't make a difference. Have a great day and Holiday season!

Chad
 
What do you mean it isn't about the chances of drawing a taf Fishon? It is exactly what it is all about. Another chance to draw an awesome tag. Come to our superbowl to draw a tag. We are only taking 5% of the tags. Hogwash Fishon.

No one that I can see is against conservation or helping wildlife, but where does the line get drawn? Good for Utah's economy? I thought that was what the Olympics was for.

I have heard of Socialized Medicine, but this has the looks and smell of Socialized Wildlife. Utah's wildlife is not controlled by democracy, just one small entity.

I wonder how the faithful feel about turning the Salt Palace or Delta Center into a wildlife casino? Put a $5 slot machine in the doorway where you check your ego, change the wheels to have big bucks, bulls, and rams, first guy to get three in a row wins. Now there is an idea for Huntsman. Build a Harrahs in downtown Salt Lake City to keep the local folks in town. Good for the economy and tourism.

What do you mean troublemaker Dawg? I just want a straight answer so my head quits spinning. A guy has to wonder what direction we are heading. A few months ago we fought about opportunity, opportunity supposedly gets expanded, like your brother Fishon wanted, ;-) :), now he says this is good and it isn't about me, you, or him drawing a tag? It is all about wildlife? Good grief.

Tell me another coyote story please.
 
It seems that everyone, including me, have complained about the general hunts in Utah. Something NEEDS to be done. No matter what is done, not everyone will be in approval. It looks like that something is going to be habitat improvement. I'm just glad that someone is going to try something. That shows that they realize that change is needed. This drawing proposal has the potential to raise a TON of money. I know it'll get a few dollars from my pocket. Hopefully it will all be used as it should be.
 
Oh wonderful, Lets just make it so we apply for years to get bonus points for a draw that has no chances. Don P is a moron, and must me getting pocket money from someone to support such trash. I know he reads this and yes i am calling you out as a person that has no respect for the majority vote. You are as bad as any crooked politician.
The only way to do this fairly is what was brought up, raise the application fees. Why the hell should someone have to spend time and money to come to a convention to draw tags that they once had a shot at drawing from thier home. I am all for habitat but take the politics out of it for gods sakes. Are you so retarded that you cannot see that sportsman will not have a problem with spending a little more on an application to still have a legitimate shot at getting a tag? You really think its fair to make a guy travel halfway across the country to have to apply for these permits in person? Do you really feel you have the nads to make this happen even though the majority of the hunters dont want to drive across the country (or thier own state) just to apply for this?
PM me in private if you want but i really want to hear you tell me this is good for the average hunter. Your no better than Taulman.
 
Better yet, lets do this and see if you think its such a dandy idea. Lets only take the tags from the Resident pool and use them, the nonres guys just raise the application fee so we dont have to spend 7-8 hundred dollars to go and have a chance at them. Just dont ruin our chances of ever drawing. Keep in mind we have years invested in the drawing just like everyone else. Keep it up and you will have nonres guys looking at the options. Hmmmm, spend 400 on a plane fair, 200 on motel, 100 on rental car, OR I CAN JUST SEND USO 100 dollars for attorney fees to make it so there is no nonres pool, keep it up retard. Then lets make the convention in Alaska since you think its so fair.
Like its been said, the average guy with 2 weeks vacation cannot come to have a chance at these tags, just Mr Moneybags will but then again he is already lining Don's pockets along with hall the other F&G rulemakers.
 
Schmalts I have to say I,m 100% behind you on this one.I hate to say it but the same thing crossed my mind about USO,I can see them getting a windfall in donations to there legal fund.Lets hope they leave non residents out of this,I think you have some great ideas.....Devlin
 
Once again, this is only my opinion and not just directed at Peay but all who push crap rules like this through. I am just sick of seeing the wealthy get more chances to get tags, and only the wealthy can afford to go to these conventions if you are a nonres.
 
Schmalts,

How do you really feel? ;-)

I don't blame you a bit for your feelings. You can fill out a power of attorney, directed to the SLC wildlife convention, and I will put you in on your behalf. Even a Power of Attorney can over ride the "be there rule."

I joined this group because they needed money to "get things done." Who knows or gives a rat's ass at this point.
 
>Schmalts,
>
>How do you really feel? ;-)
>
>
>I don't blame you a bit
>for your feelings. You can
>fill out a power of
>attorney, directed to the SLC
>wildlife convention, and I will
>put you in on your
>behalf. Even a Power of
>Attorney can over ride the
>"be there rule."
>
>I joined this group because they
>needed money to "get things
>done." Who knows or gives
>a rat's ass at this
>point.

You got mail
 
Just in case this power of attorney thing dosen,t fly I,m thinking maybe us non residents might charter a bus and we could brown bag some tuna fish sandwiches and drive straight thru...12 hours....put our money in the drawings have a tale gate party in the parking lot..hot dogs on buns with potato chips,then get back on the bus and head for home,12 hour drive straight thru.We should be able to do this for under 100$ I would think.....Devlin
 
Why does the SFW run the Utah DWR? Why can't we fire every Utah DWR puppet and just let SFW run the show.

THE ONLY BOBCAT LOOKING FORWARD TO THE NEXT SFW BANQUET AND WATCHING MOVIES OF PEOPLE SHOOTING COYOTES.
 
To nonresidents.

If you are applying in utah for elk it's because of our super quality. (5 to 10 year old bulls in every LE unit)
If you are lucky and draw in 5 years at $5 dollars a year,you have done nouthing for ut.
4 of the $5 dollars stay in the nevada draw company.Even when you pay your non res license fee you've done very little for utah's wildlife.How much money does it take to generate these type,and quality of animals every year .(not to mention the 15-20 year investment and sacrifices residents have made to get here)
I've hunted AZ,OH,COL,WV.Never complained about thier rules for non res.

A multi millionare died.
St.Peter met him at the perly gates.
St.Peter asked him about his life.This was his response.
I've been very successfull had more money than I could spend in ten life times.I traveled all over the world,had anything I wanted.
St.Peter asked him if he had done any good with his money?
He said he gave $5 to the boy scouts once.
St.Peter said he needed to talk to GOD,and he'd be right back.
St.Peter soon returned Handed the guy a $5 bill and said.

GOD told me to give your $5 bucks back and tell you to go to HELL !!!
 
To Non-Residents,

338boy said that, not me. Please, do not treat me like an arrogant Utard when I hunt your state. I welcome you and hope that I would recieve the same welcome. Afterall, I just like to hunt without the political BS and segregation.
 
Boy's I kept it clean intil the nonreses made very low personal attacks on a very good friend of mine.

338
 
Guys, It was at the northern rac in Brigham City last night. Very few sportmen were there. I believe we need to raise alot of money the next 5-10 years or herds will decrease and tags will decrease. We are not having more conservation permits. This is a draw that will provide alot of money for wildlife and hopefully expand opportunity in 10 years instead of take away opportunity. I think it's a good idea. I also think it's not fair for non-residents. I put in for hunts in 6-7 states. I have to buy a $141.00 license for Nevada and $111.00 for Arizona, to get bonus points. In Idaho I have to buy $128.50 license to just put in for draws. I don't like this either. Utah now has a pretty good product to offer. We are loosing winter range fast in many areas. In 10 years we are suppose to have one million more people. Thats more building,people, roads, and less wildlife and hunting tags if we don't have winter range. Sportmen are about 25-30 years too late. Now sportsmen groups are trying to salvage what winter range we can get with matching money. I would also be mad if I was a non-resident who had to come to salt lake to draw for 1/2 of the tags offered. Some states don't offer more than 5% non-resident tags like Oregon. No rifle non-resident tags Kansas whitetail. One thing Utah could do is allow non-residents to apply for CWMU hunts. This proposal is good for wildlife but bad for non-residents. There maybe afew ways around it. We'll have to see. Greg
 
This whole system need some serious reformation, from the DON apparently running Utah wildlife decisions ( could this whole idea possibly have anything to do with SFW's one brown animal proposal?? well if you come to the expo you can apply for whatever you want untill you run out of $5.00 bills )

To the RAC process. I would urge all of you to pick up the book
WITH RIFLE IN HAND and tell me that Teddy Roosevelt did not call exactly this situation back in the early 1900's. So much money is made off of wildlife that greed and corruption is the rule and not the exception.

I had a good friend ask me the other day, when was the last time you saw a HUNTERS WELCOME sign?? OK so when was the last time you saw a POSTED CWMU or POSTED PRIVATE PROPERTY, KEEP OUT, NO TRESSPASSING sign??

Wildlife has become a commodity just like stocks and bonds
THE DON has said it many times that BIOLOGISTS don't manage wildlife POLITICIANS do. What a sad commentary, I remember the last really big buck I saw I didn't ask myself if I thought it was worth $81,000.00.

Sorry for the rambling nonsense. The american wildlife system is set up just like the Constitution: all men are created equal. You must allow for equal access to these permits to everyone, Not just the people that can go FILL THE DELTA CENTER but Joe dirt farmer from Parowan as well.
 
>To nonresidents.
>
>If you are applying in utah
>for elk it's because of
>our super quality. (5 to
>10 year old bulls in
>every LE unit)
>If you are lucky and draw
>in 5 years at $5
>dollars a year,you have done
>nouthing for ut.
>4 of the $5 dollars stay
>in the nevada draw company.Even
>when you pay your non
>res license fee you've done
>very little for utah's wildlife.

You dont get it do you? we are not complaining to the extra money needed, Wake up and smell what your pushing.
What we are mad about is losing the opportunity to even apply for these tags now. Its easy to see all you want is a chance at the nonres pool since you already go to such conventions. If it was only about raising extra money a 5$ increase would work just fine but no, lets play crappy little games to screw nonresidents from getting a fair chance of an already small percentage of tags

And if you are talking about me insulting a personal freind of yours, good, you got the point. I wish i could talk to him and you in person to really make you look like greedy fools in front of everyone but its too damn much typing here.
 
I would like to see SFW step back and decide if this is really the right thing to do.

People are mad and rightfully so. I have heard feedback from people near and far and they are not happy. Arizona pissed of USO and look what happened. Give non-residents a fair shake. The same shake I expect when I put in out of state.

I think those in the meeting should take a hard look at what has been proposed. Everyone has a desire to help wildlife, but this is not the way.
 
> This whole system need some
>serious reformation, from the DON
>apparently running Utah wildlife decisions
>( could this whole idea
>possibly have anything to do
>with SFW's one brown animal
>proposal?? .

The one brown thing proposal came from a divsion employee>
SS made the same acusation and JK CORRECTED HIM.

check it out

http//www.monstermuleys.info/deforum/DCForumD7/4192.html

page 4 of elk forum arcives # 50 then JK's response a few post's later
>
 
I think we have beat this one to death. I am out of here! Merry Christmas to you all and maybe Santa will bring you all a special tag in the next few months!

Chad
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-04 AT 09:56PM (MST)[p].....but you started a great fight! :)

Oh, and by the way. Fishon, HowndDawgJr sends his love and would like to spend some time Christmas with you and the in-laws breaking bread and talking about the good old days. ;-)

Merry Christmas to all, and to all, a good night.
 
Just a few facts.

A big article just came out how Montana how they have cut elk tags from 2,800 to 140, and will soon be zero because wolves and grizzlies are killing all the elk. Where is all the whining about that loss of opportunity??

How many critics have talked to your congressman or senator about getting this train wreck fixed?

Second, Utah cut 100,000 deer tags because of 3 things. 1. Loss of habitat (houses on winter range) 2. Decline in deer forage on federal lands (pinion juniper chaining banned by tree huggers while sportsmen sat in the cofee shops, now internet chatrooms and #####) 3. Treehuggers shut down predator control.

Where is the complaints, or better yet, the solutions to get back Montanas elk herds, or Utah deer herds?

Utah has restored over 65,000 acres of federal lands this year. There is a plan for restore nearly 1,000,000 acres of mule deer habitat, who is going to find the funding for the $100 Million to do it?

If Utah and other western states don't fix millions of acres of habitat, and buy critical winter ranges, the ability to have more deer declines by large numbers. And if predators aren't controlled, and this is a poliltical fight with anti-hunters, predators will run us all out of business.

Ten years ago, some Utah ranchers wanted to cut Utah's elk herds to 30,000 elk. Today they are at 60,000, with a goal of 69,000, and with continued habitat investment it may go to 85,000. Who turned this train wreck around?

Just this year, the wildlife board approved increasing elk herds by 30% on the panugitch lake and dutton units because those dirty rotten SFW and RMEF jerks spent hundreds of thousands of dollars making more habitat for everyone. The ranchers even agreed to increase the elk, there is more food. that is more hunting for everyone, not less.

Utah's deer herds are improving. KTC, there are over 25 bucks in the Voice that is going to print and will be out around Jan. 5 that are over 30 inches, and these bucks came of general sesaon public land units, where ten years ago, the biggest buck was a two point. Several bucks over 35 inches were taken by average joe hunter on public lands. Where is the beef?

It is very simple math gentleman. We can unit and invest in habitat and fight the predator control wars and hunting can get better and more abundant for all hunters residents and non-residents. Or we can watch it decline.

Utah had 600 trophy bull tags ten years ago, now there are 1385, and the quality is up as well. This is alot more opportunity, not less.

The general season deer hunts are better, and will get a lot better.

The limited entry deer units are getting a lot better - the books cliffs was closed to hunting by those bad SFW guys, and now after ten years of habitat and predator control there were some incredible 30 plus inch bucks taken by average joe hunters.

There is a lot more 300 to 500 percent more turkey hunting.

There is 500% more sheep hunting.

So someone, please tell me where RMEF, SFW, FNAWS, NWTF, MDF are taking away your opporutnity? There is 200 to 500% more, not less.

Finally, I know a lot of you all could care less about celebrities - you are equal Americans as they are.

However, celebrity sells, and sportsmen ought to be damn glad a few of them are willing to get in and work to make rules to help all of us common folks.

Pamela Anderson takes off her clothes to help the anti-hunters raise money to end hunting and trapping, and grow predators so they kill all the game, that is the anti-hunting agenda.

Karl Malone and George Strait can do whatever they want, wherever they want. They don't need us, we need them. If you really know how rules and America works, we all out to be damn glad a few guys care about us little folks. karl Malone gets a hell of a lot more attention than 10,000 of us idots on monster mulies, like it or not, that is how America works.

Finally, show me where it says in the US constitution, the bible, or the book of mormon where you were guaranteed the right to apply for a hunt for $5 on the internet?

Come on down to the big convention, help raise a lot of money, help raise a lot of awarenes for hunters, and in the end, there will be a lot more hunting for all of us.

That is the proven track record of FNAWS, RMEF, SFW, SFH, MDF, NWTF, creating more game and more hunting opportunity for everyone, even the 85% of the hunters who dont' belong

None of these permits will be auctioned for the rich guys. Everyone has equal access to these permits. One application each. $5 per person. No discrimination against residents or non-residents. Sounds pretty fair to me.

In fact, as one RAC member said, "this is more opportunity to apply. Right now I can only apply for a goat and a deer. If this is passed, now I can come and apply for a sheep and a moose, and a bison, and an elk, and an antelope." I guess if someone wants to quite drinking pop, or beer, or smoking, or someting, they can save a few extra dollars each year and come and apply and invest in wildlife's future.

Four of the five RACs approved the proposal as is. the other won approved it with some modifications.

Glad to answer any honest questions.

Don Peay
 
One more clarification that is factual.

There will be a total of 5% of the permits available for drawing at this national convention.

Of these permits, half comes from the resident pool, half comes from the non-resdient pool.

That means that of the total permits offered in Utah currently - 2.5 percent of the residents permits go into this national convention drawing, and 25% of the current non-resident permits go into the drawing. So it is incorrect to say non-resdients lost 50% of there drawing opportnity in the normal draw. They lost 25% on the internet, they kept 75% of what they have, but they can come and apply for all these permits if they desire.

And, once again, there is a whole bunch more super quality hunting permits for Utah residents and non-resdients than there was ten years ago.

The goal of these groups is to increase Utah's deer herds from 275,000 to 425,000. Increase elk from 60,000 to 85,000. Increase sheep from 5,000 to 10,000. Increase turkey from 20,000 to 100,000.

that is more, not less, and they way you can do it is invest in habitat restoration, habitat acquisition, and predator managment.

Conservation groups raising and investing money and getting into the fights is a major part of the making more for everyone.

Don
 
Don, I for one appreciate that someone with some clout is working towards better hunting in Utah. If this works as you have planned, the changing of 5% of drawing tags will be made up for later by increasing tag numbers. If we keep things like they are now, I don't see anything in the future but decreasing tag numbers and loss of more than 5% of the hunting opportunity. Like I said before, no matter what happens, there will always be those who are opposed to change.
 
Don you crooked politicain.... What right do you have to make a change like this to the nonres percentage of tags without anyones input. It pisses me off a arrogant jerk like you can pull more than 20% more of the already scarce nonres tags and let anyone including residents have a crack at them, and thats who will get most of them because the nonres guys cannot come to your puppet show so you good buddy Malone and the other rich knobs can scarf up more tags.
I hope USO makes a fool of you like the arrogant idiots in AZ when they get fed up with your crap. I truely believe you just helped USO make more nonres freinds although many wont say it here because they are afraid to get shunned.
Its bad enough that the nonres elk tags are so scarce in the best units that in 10 years i applied twice for units that didnt even have a tag because your system is so retarded you dont even let us know if tags are available or not in past years.
Then you have the balls to come here and talk like an arrogant king totally side stepping my questions. Why did you feel that you can just dictate what happens without anyones input. Your no representitive, just a power hungry kingpin doing whats best for your rich buddies. I cannot believe you own states hunters have not tossed you sorry ass out on the street.
I told you in the past that it would be so easy to get hunters input by making a short poll when the applications are done online but you ignored question as well because you dont care what the people want, just Carl Malone and your rich buddies. You are the worst thing that there is for hunters that have kids that want to hunt someday. You will price the common man out and make UT a private preserve for the rich.
I never made a post this blunt and am sure it will get nuked but your a freaking joke.
 
>One more clarification that is factual.
>
>
>There will be a total of
>5% of the permits available
>for drawing at this national
>convention.
>
>Of these permits, half comes from
>the resident pool, half comes
>from the non-resdient pool.
>
>That means that of the total
>permits offered in Utah currently
and 25% of the current non-resident permits
>go into the drawing.
>>
>And, once again, there is a
>whole bunch more super quality
>hunting permits for Utah residents
>and non-resdients than there was
>ten years ago.
>
>

Don are you retarded? In one quote you say your pulling 25% of the nonres tags away (most WILL GO to residents at the Malone worship party)
but then have the balls to say there is a whole lot more opportunity to hunt elk?? You got some spalining to do Lucy..
Are you telling me the 25% of the nonres tags will only be awarded to nonres guys who come to the show?? I bet not, but i need to know if your totally screwing the nonres guys or not but i bet the majority of the shows attendance will be residents so... if anyone can get these tags how can you say you helped the nonres guys have more hunting opportunities? Or will you just come and make another arrogant post about how smart you are to make all the rules without anyones input.
There isnt one nonres that would pitch in 5$ more to apply to help out but instead you pull this crap.
 
Schmalts your the man.They still don,t get it.We have no one to represent us at there meetings so they do what they want to non residents then tell us this is good for us,Bull manure....Devlin
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-04 AT 09:00PM (MST)[p]





Quote 1 >So someone, please tell me where
>RMEF, SFW, FNAWS, NWTF, MDF
>are taking away your opporutnity?

As a nonres you are screwing us, some of us live across the country, this is not just some afternoon drive you idiot, why did you have to involve the nonres tags?????????

Quote 2 : > They don't need
>us, we need them. (celebs)
>If you really know how
>rules and America works, we
>all out to be damn
>glad a few guys care
>about us little folks.
>karl Malone gets a hell
>of a lot more attention
>than 10,000 of us idots
>on monster mulies, like it
>or not, that is how
>America works

We dont need them, you need our money and thats it. Why dont you bother to ask our opinion on if we would like 25% or our chances given to the few who can make it to your stuipid convention. Once again, why did you involve the nonres portion of these tags??

Quote 3 : Come on down to the big
>convention, help raise
>a lot of money, help
>raise a lot of awarenes
>for hunters, and in the
>end, there will be a
>lot more hunting for all
>of us.
Hey arrogant moron, why dont YOU send me plane fair, and call my boss and tell him to give me some time off work to get back a chance at the tags you screwed me out of applying for, hello.... we all dont live within a couple hours of your stupid convention.

Quote 4 : >None of these permits will be
>auctioned for the rich guys.
> Everyone has equal access
>to these permits. One
>application each. $5 per
>person. No discrimination against
>residents or non-residents. Sounds
>pretty fair to me.
Sounds fair to you???? Equal access?? LOL your living in some totally scewed dream land!!Lets have the nonres portion of the tags held only at local RMEF banquets so us poor losers who dont have Karl Malones money can still have a shot at them. Or lets have the convention in CANADA and then lets here you say we all have equal access. You are so surrounded by your rich buddies you lost touch how the common man even lives dont you?? You said these wont be for only the rich? You really think the average guy who can barly afford to come out there and hunt if he was lucky enough to draw a tag can come to this convention!!!!! Oh, well heck i will just buy a 400$ plane ticket plus motel and rental to go to UT and burn valuable time and vacation days to play DON PEAYS permit slot machine.... Oh but it will stimulate the economy in UT... WTF, when we draw a tag (not no more) that doesnt bring in enough money into the area when we buy gas, food, ect... sounds like a typicle politition talking, have to appeal to the business owners to push your garbage.

Quote 6:Finally, show me where it says in the US constitution, the bible, or the book of mormon where you were guaranteed the right to apply for a hunt for $5 on the internet?

Do you forget who pays federal taxes for federal land? Do you forget who pays your salery? Show me where it says in your job description that you should take something as sacred of a tradition as hunting and turn it into some glitzy convention extravaganza. The hicks living in little cabins in the hills of UT themselves shouldnt have to leave thier own city to get back thier lost chances to draw these tags. Once again, guys like you that just prooved your all about showbiz and celebs and the new american way of doing business are the worst thing that will ever happen to hunting. All you had to do is ask the hunters if they would rather give extra money when they apply. but once again, you dont care what we think, total arrogance.

Quote 6 "I dont here anyone yelling about the wolves killing off the elk in other states" Cut and paste this to your browser address...
http://www.hunttalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18846

Quote 7: >>Glad to answer any honest questions.
>
>
>Don Peay
You didnt answer any of mine... Why involve the nonres tags when you know damn well the huge majority of the nonres applicants cannot go to your convention? You didnt answer anything, you just sidestepped the biggest question.
Please all noresident hunters, tell me if i am wrong or not, we have Don Peay looking at these posts, let him know how you feel about this big desicion he made without anyones input from the nonres community. Heck if your afraid to do it here do it to his private message board.
Peay your really out of touch with the reality of how the nonres hunters live, wake up.
 
Don,

I appreciate you clarifying your true demeanor. Its amazing someone like you can head an organization, bash sportsman and act like a total jacka$$.

And your quote 'pinion juniper chaining banned by tree huggers while sportsmen sat in the coffee shops'. Was a true classic!

So keep showing the coyote videos at your banquets; you are sure to get a few more cheers.
 
dkpeay---- I've debated with you on many topics.

The way you have presented this issue in your two previous post makes alot of sense and helps explain some of the uncertainty brought up by most of us.

Thanks for taking the time to confirm what .338... has been attempting to explain.

Robb
 
Robb,

glad to answer any questoins, we solicit a lot of input to make things as good as possible.

Here is the potential growth of sheep permits in Utah over the next five and ten years.

First, you know FNAWS spent about $70,000 on cutting PJ and reseeding out in your country.

On Dec. 27, DWR and FNAWS are going to Montana to get 25 sheep for south slope of the Uintas. FNAWS spent $125,000 there this spring, clearing the way for that transplant.

New or additional Sheep tags in Utah in the next five years

Unit # tags

Timpanogas 3
Rock Canyon 5
Dirty Devil 4
Little Rockies 2
Sheep Creek 2
Newfoundlands 5
Beaver Damn 2

That is 23 more tags, close to a 40% increase of today.

Also, if things go right, Montana will give Utah another 25 bighorns next week, and they will go on Nebo - FNAWS spent $50,000 on Nebo to get that mountain ready.

The little rockies and dirty devil herd could rival the san rafael, which is nearly 20 permits a year.

If the north San Juan comes back, and the herds do well on Nebo and the South Slope of the Uintas Utah could approach 125 sheep tags a year.

When UFNAWS started, Utah had 9 total permits and those herds were at jepordady for catastrophic die off as occured in the San Juan. Over the last 20 years hunters have lost 400 desert sheep permits because of domestic sheep caused die off in the san juan. That is a lot of lost opportunity.

People said we were crazy back then thinking Utah would have 50 sheep tags a year, now it looks like 125 is possible. It just takes alot of time and effort.

Realistically, Utah elk could go to 85,000 head, which could add an additional 1,000 superior trophy tags a year, nearly a 100% increase from just a couple years ago.

Turkeys are becoming much more abundant.

Buck/doe ratios are getting better on general season units as well, which means more big bucks for 97,000 hunters to dream about and chase, not everyone will get one, but they are there again.

Glad to answer any more questions.

All of the groups, NWTF, FNAWS, RMEF, SFH, MDF believe this national convention can bring a tremendous amount of money and attention to fix lots of habitat and keep predator control. That means more hunting for everyone, res. and non res.

Come on down to FNAWS in SLC on Feb. 12. Get yourself a Dall sheep to go with that Bighorn.

Don
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-04 AT 11:34AM (MST)[p]

Once again, you ignored my question but answered something else?? then dont even bother coming here to this site, this site is for hunters, not side stepping politicians. Your a fricking joke.
Guys, i hope you see now what he really is. He will ignore any questions that doubt his intenet and ways of doing his plan. Then he will only answer questions to those he know the person by first name. " Robb,come on down and get that other tag to go along with the other one you got" he says to his "buddy". see what i mean, he will only listen to his buddies surrounding him.
Shame on any hunter that hunts any state other than his own for not shouting out against this sickening way of deciding who gets a hunting opportunity. Just sit here and read this and lose out your hunting rights, or start fighting back now. This is not the way to raise money for hunting.
 
When will these Organizations realize that these tags are not their property. The people of the respective states own these tags and the big game they represent, The respective wildlife agencies are put in place to manage the wildlife we love for the people of these states period. Now since a good portion of the general puiblic apparently opposes anyone other than the agency
that is supposed to be managing wildlife for them sticking their hands in the pie we are lazy shortsighted and just plain idiotic.
Don I will say it once again the Utah DWR manages wildlife for us Utahn's not SFW not the RMEF not the FNAWS or any other private group, THESE TAGS BELONG TO THE PEOPLE UF UTAH AND NONRESIDENTS WISHING TO HUNT IN UTAH!!! It is not up to you to determine what kind of hoops we need to jump through to get a shot at what is already ours. Since you brought up my rights about my $5.00 internet application you are only bringing up the obvious about what sends most of us over the edge with people like yourself, why not say that SFW will fight to make sure that you have a $5.00 internet application process instead of putting distance between SFW and the average joe hunter.
 
I have to admit, I usually just read the post and never respond.
However, this issue of convention tags, just does not sit right with me.

That being said, I don't know Don, and I will, and would never judge anyone from someone else's words. It seems to me that him, and his organization, is trying to do what is best for the future of the wildlife. In Utah, and in the west in general. However, I also think that some of the residence from Utah see this as a way to get some resident tags back.

Let's face it. NR will give up 25% of their LE tags for this "raffle", and will be very lucky to "draw back" 3-5% of them. Very Lucky! Residence may say that if you show up you will have an equal chance. No one can tell me that this wasn't thought of when this plan was originally discussed. That NR's would likely not be able to come to the convention as easily residence. I for one NR would be happy to donate $25.00 To help this fund, and I'm not even asking for a right to partake in this raffle. I'm Just asking that the NR pool of tags be left alone, as only the wealthy NR and residence, for the most part, would be able to attend this convention to take advantage of these tags. I think most, or many of the NR would feel the same way. I am all for your cause. But I am not for the way you are going to try and generate the money.

As for the residence who complain that all the NR do is pay their $5 (of which the state only gets one dollar of) and never helps with projects. I say this. We as NR did not make the rules. We must abide by whatever a state says, or not participate at all. Shame on us for taking advantage of a $5.00 application fee. Finally, if I read this right. The Bush administration is going to match funds donated to Habitat restoration. I am assuming the majority of this is on Federal Lands. Where do you residence think that money will come from? Every tax paying American, and I for one am getting tired of Federally funding Habitat restoration that only benifits the residence and "their animals". If you don't want us there to hunt, then take all the tags for yourself, and fund your own restoration projects, with no help from federal funds, above and beyond what is paid to the feds by your own state.

Marty
 
Marty nice (rational) post thank you.

We're dealing with 30 years of bad land management.All western states.

If nonreses.. lose about 50 tags now(5 year project) and we increase elk #'s
'and we add 1000 tags to the state,there is 100 tags a year increase for ya'll. 10% of stase tags
If rese's do the same(sacrifice a little) they to gain in the future as well.
We the conservation groups will steer the fed's .Get the work done ASAP. For a small sacrifice now we get large return's in the future.

Your talking to a resident who has never drawn a L.E tag(20 years and max points on two species).I should be complaining about the guy's who have drawn already,who haven't had a waiting period.Some of them will draw some of these tag's.And that's not fair to those who have max points,( who've never drawn.)I think this is a small price to pay.I also have some kids to think about their future,along with your kids.

But mostly I'm reminded of 30 years of bad land management, that if not restored soon, deer herds will continue to decline.

HISTORY PROVES NOBODY CARES ABOUT WILDLIFE MORE THAN THAN SPORTSMEN.

WE'RE PAYING THE COST'S. WE'VE ALWAYS PAID THE COST'S. AND WE'RE ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE TO PAY THE COST'S.

If local groups didn't lead the way the fed's would sit on their a's.And the Bush money would not be there in the firts place.

Call your local BLM-FOREST,CIRCUS OFFICE AND AKS THEM HOW MUCH MONEY THEY SPEN'T ON WILDLIFE RANGE RESTORATION EACH YEAR!!They will tell you they've had no funding .Now it's here because of sportsmen and Bush LET'S USE IT!!!

338

Thanks again
 
338, you need to see that by him talking 50% or the resident tags it will take 200% increase in tags to have the same draw odds for those of us that cannot come to the convention.
If you think this is wrong tell Don Peay
mailto:[email protected]
 
I have already proposed a minimal sales tax increase which would net about 162,000,000 extra dollars. Another thought would be for all these well intentioned large organizations to put their money where their mouth is. Why don't you(big organizations) take the 5% allotment you already have and increase your "donation" to $10.00 a ticket at the convention then donate all the money to the habitat restoration? Win-Win for everybody. The organizations can keep the booty they make for the $20 entrance fee and they raise the extra money needed for the habitat. No additional tags lost either. I fail to understand the assumption to generate money must mean that the average Joe must take it in the keester. I have just proposed two viable options to the loss of more tags and if these "organizations" are truly "for" the common man, they will back down from any additional tags are alloted and think of other viable alternatives. Or is it that the average Joe is not in their interest at all?
 
STATE WIDE TAX INCREASE FOR WILDLIFE "GET'ER DONE"

schmalts my email's to DON will be to thank him for his vision hard work and efforts in yours and my behalf!!!!!!
 
338

I think the ultimate goal of the plan is great. I just can't believe that the only way to fund this is by raping the NR of their tags. Maybe there will be more tags available in 5 more years, but if there is one thing that I have found to be true in my life that once you give something up that you already have. You rarely ever get it back...i.e..NR tags.

5,6,7 years from now when "there are more animals" and the DWR is going to issue more tags, what are the odds that the residence aren't going to want all the tags for themselves. From all of the post that I have seen on MM, it seems to me that most NR are content with 10% of the tags, and most residence seem to think that is an accepable number. Reading your earlier post on this subject, 338, makes me beleive that your in favor of less of no NR tags. So why shouldn't I call my representives in Washington and tell them that I don't beleive that federal monies should be spent in Utah on habitat restoration on federal land because it is only going to benefit resident sportsmen. I know that I can speak for every NR out there when I say that we are all for habitat restoration in every area in the country. Not just Utah. But there absolutely has to be a different way to raise these funds by these organizations.

Marty
 
I'm not opposed to nonres tags at all and I think the split in ut is fair.I just have been bent out of shape since the USO thing started.I've been in a conservation group(one or another) for 20 years( working for Utah).Back when there were only a handfull of le tags,or units.I'm focussed on returning deer populations to max possible.As utah has unlimited summer range for deer,we're only limited by winter range,and it's dead in alot of areas.Tell your congressman we're 20 years behind.And you want to hunt here.A pissing match (like boycotting conservation groups) does none of us any good.Creating contraversy in the congress is tree hugger mentality and has gotten us here today.We feel the window of oppertunity is very short (BUSH),We've looked at what is the fastest way to raise the most .This makes some unhappy for a short time.If we miss the window it will make ALL of us unhappy forever.

338boy
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-04 AT 08:07PM (MST)[p]My last post on this issue. It is detailed, but there are not simple solutions to complex and large problems.

Marty, first, you don't need to bother calling Washington. There was 1.9 million in the Bush Utah BLM budget for elk and deer habitat restoration, it was cut in the final budget by Congress. The country has a $500 billion deficet, and young men are being killed because not enough body armor. Easy decision, more money so hunters can hunt more deer, or body armor for US Marines, I vote with the congress, give those young men everything we can.

Someone else suggested a slight tax increase. SFW spent $25,000 on a PR campaign for Initiative One, a 1/20 of a percent sales tax. TNC spent $1 million, the voters of Utah just last month rejected this at the ballot box 55% against, 45% in favor. This would have been $55 million for habitat. Moot point, voters of Utah said no.

Utah Governor put $4 Million a year into state wildifle budget for the past 8 years. This is sales tax money, not hunting license money. Someone ask the DWR how come this $4 million doesn't go into habitat?

SFW has asked the legislature for $2 Million more for habitat restoration on federal lands in upcoming session Jan. 05.

600,000 acres of sage brush died due to drought. Environmentalists shut down chaining 15 years ago. Another 400,000 acres could be treatted. SFW has worked with Bush Admin. to get back into this business of mule deer habitat restoration for two years now. I believe close to 60,000 acres was treated this year, and the chains came out for the first time in 15 years!! Some believe sportsmen can't win, we are.

One more problem is the BLM is mostly using bullhog which is costing $200 an acre to treat PJ, a chain will do it for $60. ASk the BLM why they are not using the chain more, it is more cost effective and a lot cheaper?

As far as the peoples wildlife, if you ask the anti-hunting groups that are well organized and funded - they don't sit and fight the people trying to get their agenda done and trash the celebrities that raise them money and media - the publics wildilfe is for the wolves and grizzly bears to eat. The elk hunt in N. Yellowstone was just cancelled, not enough elk, only 12 calves per 100 cows, you need 20 to survive. Grizz and wolves just doing their job, hunters no longer needed.

Now, as far as non-resident oppornity loss or gain. When UFNAWS was started, there were 9 total sheep tags in Utah, and those sheep herds had a catastrophric threat - 2 domestic sheep herds right in the middle of the San Rafael. IN 1986 over 600 Desert Bighorns died because the BLM let a domestic sheep grazer put their permited sheep right in the middle of the San Juan herd. Yes, OUR public land, our public wildlife gone and not the BLM or DWR could or did anything about it.

The public land we all pay taxes on. About 80-90% of the grass allocated on public land is to livestock, not wildlife. The only way to grow herds of wildlife is make federal lands more productive or buy grazing permits when ranchers want to sell. Some ranchers don't like Don Peay because I have helped buy around $4 million worth of grazing permits, and converted the use for more elk, more bison, more sheep, more deer. SFW members donate money, we negotiate the deals and then go throught the laborious process of getting forage allocated to wildlfie. Anyone want to come to work and do this?

The Results Marty, for Non-Resident Hunters:
Zero non-resident tags for sheep then. TAking 10% of the available tags and doing auctions and fundraisers, FNAWS has raised $3.5 million for Utah and started 23 new herds. This past year Utah issued about 55 total sheep tags.

Here are the names of all the non-residents who had Utah tags this year: Billy Dunbar, Alaska; Roger Donahue, New Hampshire;
Randy Lilenquist, Arizona, Al Burke, Wisconsin, Chad Farace, Maryland, Hale Krychec Wyoming, Don McComber Wyoming, David Connor Nevada; Toyvil Manson Florida, and one other, name escapes me. That is going from 0 to 10 a year. Residents sheep hunting opportunity up 500%, Non-resdients up 1000%. Thanks FNAWS and a handful of DWR employees.

Elk in Utah. There used to be 600 trophy tags - 60 for non-residents. Now there are 1350 trophy tags - 135 for non residents. With investmetn in habitat, some biologists think Utah could grow another 20,000 elk, that is 1,000 additional trophy tags from today, nearly a 80% increase from today. that is more, not less.

Several deer units were closed, and after a lot of investment and predator control, a lot of that sponosored by conservation groups there were close to 1,000 awesome deer tags, 100 non residents this year from units that were closed, rebuilt and reopened. Another case of take action, invest, make more.

Turkeys, used to be around 300 permits total, NWTF invested tons of money - SFW got $50,000 a year from legislature, this year over $135,000 spent to bring in 1,400 more birds to Utah. This year, about 1800 turkey permits.

The lists goes on and on and on. MOre opportunity, percentage wise 200 to 500 percent more hunting, and the quality (bigger bucks, bulls and rams) is getting better as well. These groups have made the huge difference.

Let me give you two quotes:

"Utah is going out of the deer business, and there is nothing we can do about it." Mike Welch, Utah DWR Big Game Manager, norhern RAC meeting about 1995.

"The BLM is not interesting in fixing mule deer winter range, we have other priorities." about 1999 when DWR biologists asked to fix deer range south of beaver unit.

So here we are today. With Bush, who has made it very clear, it is a priority to restore rangelands and in fact changed a law via Congress, "the healthy forest initiative" there is a window and a need to fix at least one million acres.

If this is done, Utah can build deer and elk numbers, which means more tags, perhaps thousands more each year.

the US Congress cut funds for 2005, cut the $1.9 Bush had in his budget for Utah projects. The DWR already has $4 million in sales tax money each year, apparantely their priorities for other things are higher, because they have about $45 Million available, and only spend $1 Million on habitat.

Needs each year for the next ten years: 100,000 acres, $100 per acre, $10 Million a year.

Sources: $1 Million DWR. $1 Million from Conservation Permit funds Utah currently has. SFW Request $2 Million from Gov. Huntsman, outgoing Gov. Walker put $200,000 in her proposed budget. BLM, Looking to find somewhere to make up for $1.9 million congress cut. Sen. Bennet got $3.5 Million but that is for entire west, not just Utah, maybee $500,000 gets to Utah.

Shortfall, $6 to $7 Million a year for ten years.

Wolf advocate groups contribution - zero, they got to keep all their money for Public relations and lobbyists to get wolves in to kill everything sportsmen have paid to restore.

NWTF, SFW, FNAWS, RMEF, MDF proposal, allow everyone who wants to come on down the convention, donate what they want, apply for what they want, 1 application for each person, no advantage to rich guys. Hold a concert, maybee raise $1 Million more.

Create huge awarness, get sportsmen excited, maybee get the attention of Congress so they don't cut the funds next time.

Utah has a decision, invest now, or see opportunity lost.

The Conseration Groups have a very strong track record that could be spelled out in very gorry detail about every project funded, all the deals negotiated, etc. go to SFW website and see $6.6 million in projects.

Invest now. Reverse downward trends of habitat and herd sizes. More opportunity for everyone.

Anyone else read this in detail and notice voters already said no, congress cut Bush's proposed budget, legislature has already given $4 million a year. DWR has their priorities for their $45 million a year budget.

Utah needs $6 to $7 million more a year for ten years.

RACS agreed with Conservation Groups proposal, a good start towards a big project.

Out, and done with MM, there is a lot of work to be done. I hope I have outlined some issues facing Utah wildlife and Utah Wildlife habitat. As I said originally, I will answer questions about issues from people who ask reasonably. Name calling and ignorance will not get a response from me, call someone else.

Several emails have come saying in essence "thanks for answering questions, now that i fully understand it, pretty good idea."

There are a whole bunch of great sporstmsen involved making a difference. About 10-15% of those who hunt belong to groups. Since all the results of these groups benefit everyone who hunts, we think it is high time everyone who wants to see trends go up, not down, to get involved.


don
 
OK Don.... I realize you stated above that this would be your last post on the subject but I am still unclear on whether non-residents would be able to confer a power of attorney to a representative to apply for these tags? If yes, can you direct us non-residents on who to contact? I am sure it would be another lucrative venture for the state to provide this service for an additional fee...
 
Dang I ckecked out of this discussion a tad too early!

Don, do you ever get tired of patting yourself on the back? It is funny how SFW gets credit for everything positive in this state. I guess you are the only organization that does work for wild life. I happen to belong to 3 or 4 groups that do quite a bit of good.

The point your missing Don is not the potential of what Utah could have in 10 years but why are you taking the publics tags? No matter what your justification it is wrong! Create new tags through the RAC process but DO NOT take tags from existing allotments for the public! You are hosing the NR guy's and stealing from the residents as well. If there is no cover charge to get into your pep rally then why can't NR apply through the mail? If what you are truly after is more funds to be matched by the Government then open it up! I guarentee you would get more applicants which would further your cause!

Most of us are not against this convention we are just sick and tired of SFW pulling tags from the public in the name of conservation. When will it end? How big of a percentage will you ask for when this is done? It seems to go up every year. The idea behind this is not bad, just the way your going about it! Have a great day!

Chad
 
Thanks Chad for summing up the bottom line on this issue. Further, I would like to add that I too, am very concerned with conservation and the protection of our fragile ecosystem therefore I would like to place a stamp on a recycled envelope and put it in the mail rather than be a part of vast, pollution creating migration to Utah. I am really digging for this one. Devlin
 
It all comes down to this, he finds it easier to get 10,000$ from 10 celebs and rich guys than to get 1$ from 10,000 average guys. Its taking the easy way out to make him look like a hero for raising fast cash with high profile conventions. The cash can be raised, and easy, but the F&G and SFW are taking the wrong road. He will be patting himself on the back like he did here after the convention. The sad part is he could be doing it in a way where we all can thank him but he wont. Its all against the tradition of what we were all taught by our fathers and grandfathers. Hunting is no longer just a great pastime and challenge against animals witts, its now a challenge to get a way of even getting rights to go hunting because no one is speaking up about this but guys like me.
This is the wrong way to raise money. keep the showbiz and glamore and bigshots out of hunting, or at least stop making it an advantage for them over the common man.
 
It is my guess that most non-residents who are against this convention to salvage hunting opportunity 10 yrs from now were not applying for hunts in Utah 12 yrs ago. Twelve years ago. Buck to doe ratios were 3-5 in many units. A trophy bull in almost all units was a rag horn. Conservation groups got involved since then. SFW has given us a voice in politics, to get things changed around. As the previous post's of Don Peay noted we have come along way with a long way to go. I complain to myself about giving Nevada over $200.00 a year just to by a license and apply for hunts. Arizona $111.00. Idaho 128.50 just to apply. Very few states give 10% to non residents. Most states you need to pay much more to apply. Utah's groups are trying to provide a future for our kids to hunt in 20 yrs from now. I'm glad we still have some hope for the future. Twelve years ago we had very little.
 
>It is my guess that most
>non-residents who are against this
>convention to salvage hunting opportunity
>10 yrs from now were
>not applying for hunts in
>Utah 12 yrs ago.
>Twelve years ago. Buck
>to doe ratios were 3-5
>in many units. A
>trophy bull in almost all
>units was a rag horn.
> Conservation groups got involved
>since then. SFW has
>given us a voice in
>politics, to get things changed
>around. As the previous
>post's of Don Peay noted
>we have come along way
>with a long way to
>go. I complain to
>myself about giving Nevada over
>$200.00 a year just to
>by a license and apply
>for hunts. Arizona $111.00.
> Idaho 128.50 just to
>apply. Very few states
>give 10% to non residents.
> Most states you need
>to pay much more to
>apply. Utah's groups are
>trying to provide a future
>for our kids to hunt
>in 20 yrs from now.
> I'm glad we still
>have some hope for the
>future. Twelve years ago
>we had very little.

I have been applying for 10 years and have 9 points for Elk. I waited my turn and now a resident or rich nonres can fly into the convention and pull a tag that i have been try for 10 years to get. I tell you were the 5% of the pulled tags should go, To the highest bonus point holders. I believe don quoted that with his vision we can draw a tag avery 5 years, but this system prooves it all wrong. Maybe every five years if you come to his jerk-athon
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-04 AT 07:53PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-04 AT 07:50?PM (MST)

Schmalts,
I'm with you. I attended the RAC meeting and alot of what Don has said above is not true!! The proposal lets you put in an unlimited number of applications for the same hunt. Who is that geared for do you think? The rich can basically buy their bonus points. How does that make you feel? This proposal just plain sucks for the average resident hunter. And another thing the money earned from these tags is not guaranteed to stay in Utah!!! I heard it first hand at the meeting. Our only hope for opposition is to email our wildlife board members or show up to the wildlife board meeting in January because what I've heard it passed the RAC's.
 
Now were talking! you should all be pissed if you have bonus points in UT!! you waited your turn so dont let someone step in front of you because he has a pocket full of $5 dollar bills.
Personally i would rather get my elk tag the old fashion way and hand out the 5$ bills at the titty bar supporting something better looking than Peays plan.. LOL
But really, use the link in the beforehand post and contact those and all of them with your feelings. Cut and paste the message like i did. Stand up for this or see the SFW and others take more tags after Don shows how much money he can squeeze out of his rich buddies. If we wait and Don shows the F&G the easy (but ethically wrong) way of getting money it will be too late. There is a better way than his plan.
Heck here is the link again
http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/wb-members.html
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-04 AT 08:52PM (MST)[p]>Schmalts, why don't you tell us
>how you Really feel?

Damn right! either you know there is some truth to my madness or you find me entertaining. Hell, Maybe Peay should hire me as a speaker at his convention. Slip me a San Juan elk tag and a few 5$ bills and i will turn to the dark side...
You know, i really got to hear it for myself from you guys who are for his tag robbery. If the convention was held in Milwaukee can you be man enough to admit you still think its a great idea and would be for it? Honest answers please.
 
I just e-mailed them all and sent their addy's to all my buddies. It is time the Board knows we don't like this plan. Send in those e-mails guy's. This plan is flawed if for no other reason than they are utilizing public permits. I also did not think lottery type things were legal in this state. Have a great day.

Chad
 
Personally, I think the majority of Sportsmans have no idea what is going on. I think a letter to the editor of local newspapers will help.

Did you hear that BESS? I bet the local paper in Altamont would even print your letter in CAPS!

THE ONLY BOBCAT WONDERING WHEN MR. PEAY WILL RUN FOR GOVERNOR OF UTAH WITH KAUUUL MALONE AS HIS FIRST RUNNING MATE!
 
First, I will send my letter to the Wildlife Board voicing my displeasure of the new thought. Second, Mr.Peay I have a few questions for you.

1. I realize that Initiative 1 didn't pass however, with your clout and influence, I failed to see any print or television ads pushing for wildlife habitat. Apparently you and the rest of the "big" organizations didn't feel that the issue wasn't important enough to their cause. Was it becasue the tax money wouldn't fund their "machines"? If you felt that the issue was that important, where was the "sell"? If you don't succeed I guess its better to just quit and take the easy route by getting the cronies on the wildlife board to cough up more tags.

2. You didn't address my second question of why doesn't your organization and the rest of the "biggies" just put the existing 5% into the kitty and charge $10 a pop instead of $5? Hell, if all these people can afford to come to the convention in person and put in what's another five bucks? You can even combine your convention with ole' Doug Miller's and probably get more entrants.

3. I would like to know how many other ideas to raise needed money were addressed and what were they? The think tank should be expsnded beyond SFW's executive council before brought to a RAC, don't you think? You have heard enough and know what the public perception of the RAC is, "The RAC's mind is made up even before the meeting". Well I have attended enough RAC's in my life to know that this perception holds more water than many would like to admit and this rubber stamp of the proposal would seem to echo that sentiment. I will admit that I didn't attend the RAC because of employment commitments but listening to the outcame I'm glad I didn't attend.

If you would like to answer these questions privately, you can PM me or e-mail me at [email protected]. Your responses and any further possible dialogue will be kept private.
 
All Utah sportsmen should get involved in one way or another, so that their opinion will count. The deer and elk are ours. SFW is a big driving force for decisions made in Utah. How we choose to allow nonresidents to hunt is up to us. How they choose to let us hunt in their states is up to them. I could live without them in Utah, but I would not want to be excluded from their states.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-04
>AT 08:52?PM (MST)

>
>>>If the convention was held
>in Milwaukee can you be
>man enough to admit you
>still think its a great
>idea and would be for
>it? Honest answers please.
I take the silence as a big no from you residents
 
How about letting non-residents buy these tickets (applications) at a booth where ever UTFNAWS, SFW, Utah RMEF exhibit???? I am all for supporting wildlife conservation activities because if we (hunters) don't do it ourselves it will never happen.

The convention sounds very interesting but as a high school teacher (and not in Utah) I get two personal days off a year. I would rather use those days on the mountain than in an airplane. I do, however, attend national FNAWS and would love to be able to fill out my entry there.
 

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