Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

schmalts · Dec 18, 2004

Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-04 AT 07:08AM (MST)[p] Are they helping you hunt?? I am not sure anymore.

I never thought it would come to this but we all need to start thinking real deep about our hunting opportunities dwindleing away unless you only hunt in your own state or have too much money.
Recently it was brought to our attention that as a nonresident hunter you will have 50% of UTAH's nonresident limited draw tags will be given away at a drawing only if you go to a convention held in UT. This means that most of those tags will end up in the hands of only those with enough money to fly out to the convention or those who live nearby (residents}.
There is 2 problems with this. The first is that it is making it so only the rich nonresidents can apply for these. Only the rich or someone living near the state line will have the time and money to go to such a thing.
Second, Don Peay is screwing the nonresident chances big time. He is taking 50% of all the tags from the limited drawing (currently 25% plus now an additional 25%) but only 2.5% of the resident pool. Of these 50% he is taking out of the nonres pool who do you think will be able to win them?? the answer... The rich nonres who can go to the convention, and the residents themselves.
So now you have to ask yourselves, unless you live in UT and can go to his little show is MREF helping you get out hunting in UT??
Shame on RMEF for taking these tags this way. unless the 50% of tags will only be given to nonres guys who go to the show this is a scam that Don Peay thought no one would see through.
You might as well forget about drawing tags like in the good old days when you just did your homework and sent out money in an envolope. Now you have to fly out to UT and worship Dons Buddy Karl Malone and stimulate the local economy to make it right in his eyes.
I suggest all nonresidents contact the UT F&G and voice your opinion on this. We are ALL FOR RAISING MONEY for wildlife but this is not the way to do it. He could have raised money a lot of other ways that gave nonres applicants a fair chance.
USO's attorney fee fund is looking better every day thanks to Don Peay. He will divide the hunting population even more

theridge · Dec 19, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Damn rich people. Where is Hitler when we need him?

ElmerFudd · Dec 19, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Damm Karl. Even hit on his best friend and surrogate son's wife.

GJM · Dec 19, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-04 AT 10:21AM (MST)[p]Never did support RMEF and never will, out here in NV they kicked in the lions share of funds for the Steptoe Valley Wildlife Refuge for elk management(originally the 3-C ranch), and low and behold they are turning it into a west nile mosquito trap bulding reservoirs for ducks, the only thing they did for the elk was to leave the elk fence up so they can run them into it during the cow season and blast them! Damn, I almost forgot, they did plant about 40 acres into natural something that they don't even feed on! Your right the RMEF is for the rich and that's not me!...Greg

fatrooster · Dec 19, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Don't forget. They also will not take a stand for or against USO or about whats going on with the resident nonresident tag situation. People say that they don't get involved in politics. Isn't that what thier organization is all about? Working politically to purchase land and better the enviroment for elk. Don't they like the support of hunters and sportsmen? Will they support us?
I feel the same way about the National Rifle association.
Both of these organizations are afraid to take a stand in this situation because they are afraid it will hurt them fianancially. And it probably would in some ways. But it just goes to show you that everything revolves around money.
I believe that the RMEF and the NRA both stand for great causes and have done great things. Now I ask them to show thier true colors.
I also ask, what bussiness do these States have in issuing hundreds of the tags (that are meant to be given out in a fair drawing system) in auctions and fund raisers. Yes these fund raisers and auctions are doing some good things. But we just keep putting a bigger price tag on our game. One day we will have a hard winter and a big winter kill. Tags will be cut back. These organizations will be used to the money generated by these fun raiser and auction tags. They will have to support all of the extra staff and offices that have been added to accomodate everything that this extra tag money has supported. Who is gonna pay the price to support all of these things. The sportsman. Fewer tags will be available to the public or tag prices will increase etc., etc. These organizations need to get thier money someplace else and not rely on the selling of tags. We are headed into more trouble. We are definitley turning hunting into a rich mans hobby. I may be talking out of my but a little but it does not take Albert Einstein to figure out where we are headed. Sorry for getting worked up. fatrooster.

schmalts · Dec 19, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

dont be sorry for getting worked up, you damn well should be. Thank you for responding to this, but take it one syep further and contact everyone you can about Don Peays plans and how you feel about it. when the time comes you cannot hunt because your middle class you will be sorry you didnt.

ElmerFudd · Dec 19, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

http://www.sfwsfh.org/currentevents/site.pl?page=121204

Put in a joke reply, but looked it up, and here is the story. 50% of the 5% will come from the nonresident pool, that is currently 10%. It reduces the nonresident pool by 25% to 7.5%. Starts with the 06 draw. It may have been O.K. if it were 5% across the board, so nobody's chances were hurt too much but........

schmalts · Dec 19, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-04 AT 01:32PM (MST)[p] But lets look at it this way, they took 50% of the nonres tags, and 5% or the res tags, then take them to his convention where it will probably be 90% residents VS 10% nonres or even less. what chances will the nonres have to ever hunt in UT again thanks to Don Peay. Unless his splendid plan allows 200% more nonres tags by 06 he just shafted all of us nonresidents. Is RMEF our friend? I dont think so, unless your a rich man. If they have any morals they will not accept these tags under Don Peays ideas. The least they could do is make it that half the tags at he convention go to nonres only. That would balance it out but still make it so only the rich nonres will get them, Thanks again Don.
BTW, Let don know how you feel by email mailto:[email protected]

alsatian · Dec 19, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-04 AT 02:38PM (MST)[p]I don't know if I know enough about this initiative to comment on the initiative itself. I will comment on the idea of the sport of hunting becoming more and more expensive. To the extent this happens, some hunters will be excluded from the sport. There are dwindling numbers of hunters already, reducing the number of hunters still further isn't going to be healthy for the sport. Without a good number of people out there advocating for the sport and correcting errors ("why do they hunt these animals just to put their head on their wall?!!!" -- a very common misunderstanding of non-hunters), sport hunting will be outlawed. While the US Constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms, it doesn't guarantee the right to hunt.

Anything that increases the barriers to hunters either entering the sport or remaining in the sport is BAD, in my opinion.

Maybe the whole point of the requirement to attend the convention is to make the angle better for the permit middlemen? What is to prevent an agent representing me -- and hundreds of other nonresidents -- at the convention and submitting my application in lieu of my being physically present?

schmalts · Dec 19, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Well lets here it Don, What about his question? If someone shows with a power of attorney are you going to tell him he cannot put in for someone??

COSA · Dec 19, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Utah is similar in size to NV. I'd be a little pissed off if I had to drive 9 hours down to Vegas, or 2 1/2 hours down to Reno for a convention. I believe there were good intentions for the conservation orgs. But it is really wrong to make people jump through hoops to get an opportunoty at tags. I assume it will be in Salt Lake, How about the folks that live in the Southern part of the state, where most of the good tags are. A lot of people do not have weekends off, live far away, or maybe can not afford travel expenses after Christmas. So are they supposed to use their valuble vacation time to come to some convention. I think the only fair option would be to allow everyone to attend the convention/apply for tag online, for the entrance fee, or even double the entrance fee, IF YOU WERE REALLY FOR RAISING MONEY FOR WILDLIFE. Or are the kickbacks from booth sales an issue. I am not from Utah, this would never be allowed in Nevada. Something really stinks in my opinion. It is not fair that my state is going to be a free for all, and now Utah has nonres tags at 7.5% + convention tags. There is way too much politics and corporate money involved in a convention. Everyone is winning except the average sportsman.

ElmerFudd · Dec 19, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

No, they are going to take 25% of the nonresident tags, and only 2.5% of the resident tags. 50% of 5% of the total is 2.5% of the total. Taking the 2.5% from the 10% leaves 7.5%. Yes, nonresidents are getting screwed, but not quite as bad as you say.

"In a nutshell, 5% of total Utah permits (50% of these permits will come from resident pool, 50% from non-resident pool)"

Annd it is not just RMEF, "RMEF, SFW, SFH, MDF, NWTF, and Utah FNAWS and FNAWS" are all listed.

fatrooster · Dec 19, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

OK, I just went back and read what people said on another post entitled "SFW proposes 5% tags for a convention." I also read what Don Peay said. I have to apologize for what I said in my previous reply in this post. At least until I can learn more. I like many of the things that Don Peay had to say. If I am not seeing the light then maybe you guys can help me out. Is he blowing smoke or is he sincere. What do you think shmalts?
fatrooster.

DonV · Dec 20, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

I agree with Schmalts, this is BS

schmalts · Dec 20, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Fatrooster, Don keeps ignoring the question about if we can give power of attorney to have someone apply, or why didnt he allow the 5$ tag sales over the internet to keep discrimination form the average Joe. I agree he has great ideas, but put them into a poor plan to once again push the average guy away from applying to hunt. There is NO REASON why you need to go to the convention other than the fact he is afraid of poor attandance otherwise. Email him and ask him, once again he sidestepped the question in the other thread (4 times now) showing his true colors. I find it so sickening i never posted such a bashing against someone like that. I am enraged at his plan to make this a political zoo on his part. The sad part is that he is on the right track but the wrong road.
When the time comes all of us poor folk cannot hunt he will be some superstar because other superstars will be the only ones hunting. mark my word on it.
You got AZ and NV and other states raising prices throught he roof, and now you got to jump through hoops just to apply!
I like UT a lot more a couple years ago before someone shot a 400 bull. Now they are getting an ego like AZ that brought on the USO lawsuit. All anyone wanted from that lawsuit was a even 10% and the same arrogance that Don Peay is displaying got them shafted and hurt all of us. UT is letting Don Peay lead them down the same road.
Thats my thoughts, since you asked.
I would request that all of you email don with the link i provided to see if he responds to the question "can we apply by power of attorney" Why not by mail?

Devlin · Dec 20, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Hey Smaltz...I was thinking about these poor disabled hunters...How are they going to make it back there???? Let's here what Don has to say about that one!...Devlin

Colville · Dec 20, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

After 2 threads and a hundred posts... it's real simple, the nexus of money and membership to the "convention". This process guarantees volume attendance. That means sales of products by vendors, it means you can charge vendors more for their slot, parking revenues, it means more membership apps taken, more dollars collected for pet programs and $ dropped for causes du jour, of course all held in trust by RMEF et all, minus overhead, salaries etc until they put it to use.

RMEF is a great idea on paper. Unfortunately RMEF comes first now. It's too big and long past being a grass roots phenomenon. The process of grabbing tags is part of power consolidation. It drives their ability to push membership, to lobby the G, to direct (in what they determine is the appropriate interest) public wildlife and habitat policy. And that could be good. Except.... They don't give a damn about you. If they need to step on your rights to grab your public resource in order to shore up their power, done. If you don't believe they'll shoot for more tags next year and the year after you are on crack. This is not about Altruism. This is about money and power. I'll grant they still do some great stuff with the money. Just don't think they're looking out for you. You still have to do that.

I don't care what the conservation group is. There's a threshold where something starts to stink. That threshold is crossed when you are told, "I'm sorry, we have to take this public resource from you so that we can distribute it in a way we find most effective (for conservation group X) but you'll just have to trust that it'll come out in the wash, it's for your own good." Nothing ever comes out in the wash. And almost every time someone takes something from me with "it's for your own good" I know someone just stepped on my balls. Either public resource remains the peoples exclusively owned right and property or you have the whole damn camel in the tent. I'm not in your state, but you guys will have to put a new initiative to the people and collect your signatures to demand that the public?s wildlife resource NEVER be restricted in application, application method or place or offered in control of anything but the governing wildlife agency of the state.

NR's getting a giant F job in this. RMEF needs to receive a campaign of letters, and its sponsors, from those in your state of like mind... ala USO. Time to chat to RMEF sponsors, your State house/senate reps etc.

Again, this isn't really about the RMEF. It's just about allowing a non government entity to PIMP public resources for their benefit. Even if the wash over includes some public good you have to find your way there without standing on the heads of either the citizens of the state or the NR applicants expecting a fair shake. I'd say making a citizen drive 4 hours or NR fly cross country to apply for public resource so that RMEF gets a huge volume count that they'll tout as "the size of their constituency" thereafter, has a real odor to it. Back to the peanut gallery.

wileywapati · Dec 20, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Perhaps it is time to take the middle man out of the equation
start donating money and putting in time directly for the wildlife agency in your own state.

schmalts · Dec 20, 2004

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Collville, awsome post. you did it in a way that i wish i had the tact to do it.

elkslam · Feb 13, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

That just flat sucks they already raised tag prices for 2005 now we have less of a chance of drawing a nonresident tag. The price of hunting tags is becoming outrageous. Nevada's tags for is a little to pricey for the normal working man. Utah is going to be the same way it all boils down to $$$$$$. Everyone wants to shoot a 400 class bull so why not stick it to the hunters. The you have guys who will pay thousands of dollars for a tag and they think that man i am a true hunter oh the have to pay a guide also (nothing against guided hunts). The season last 90 days probably man that is tough hunting. I believe that for elk to be allowed in the record book it should be a do it yourself hunt with a normal priced tag no auction tags allowed. I would rather get to hunt every year. I believe some areas have made trophy bulls to accessable. They need to make it a little tougher the way elk hunting should be.

txhunter58 · Feb 14, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Colville said: Again, this isn't really about the RMEF. It's just about allowing a non government entity to PIMP public resources for their benefit.

I agreee with this statement. However, I am not so quick to quit the RMEF. In fact I went to one of their banquets locally this past Saturday.

First of all, you mention Don as the main culprit, he is not an officer in the RMEF is he? Secondly, how many tags are actually going to RMEF? Third, has anyone tried to contact the RMEF headquaters and ask them about this??? I just sent them an email stating that I was very much against it and asked them for a reply. Has everyone else that is pissed sent them a tactfully worded email stating that you want them to stop this practice. I have usually found them to be responsive if lots of members kick up a ruckus.

Fatrooster said: Don't forget. They also will not take a stand for or against USO or about whats going on with the resident nonresident tag situation. People say that they don't get involved in politics. Isn't that what their organization is all about?

NO! This is not what they are about. They state very plainly that they are a nonpolitical organization that has a sole purpose of obtaining habitat for elk and other species. 90 cents out of every dollar collected goes for habitat. They don't spend a single dollar lobbying for anything. To me this is smart, no matter which side of an issue you take, you always alienate someone. If they stick to their STATED sole purpose and stay out of the politics, they are smart in my book.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that they have to participate in a program such as is happening in UTAH. This program is WRONG and if enough people kick up a fuss, I suspect they will stop their participation. Instead of quiting them, why don't you promote a email campain to see if we can make a change that way.

Are we also clear that it is 25% of nonresident tags NOT 50% that is being taken away. 25% is bad enough!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

NMRaptor · Feb 14, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

How about just move to Utah.
-Raptor

schmalts · Feb 14, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Even more of a joke, I heard that if you win one of these raffle tags you still have to than pay the nonres fee for the tag on top of it!! You guys need to write everyone on the RAC and Board about this. Rumor has it Don Peay sold this to them the same way he tries to explain it here. He hides the fact that 25% of the LE tags will be lost next year. Make them aware of it
Here is a link to the place you can email the RAC and Board members (2 seperat links) but just type something up and cut and paste it so you can mail these guys fast!! it still can be changed!!

txhunter58 · Feb 14, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-05 AT 08:45PM (MST)[p]Link?? please provide.

Also, this link started about RMEF and now you are promoting writing someone else? Sounds like a good idea to me though. Have you written RMEF yet?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

schmalts · Feb 14, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/
Try putting this in your browser adress. Then click on both the RAC members link, and the board link. They all have hot links to email them. Sorry, i forgot.
Yes, i emailed every corporate sponsor that RMEF has. If you go to thier webpage they have a sponsor list. Another good place to let them know this is wrong.

txhunter58 · Feb 15, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Thanks for the link. Also, good idea about contacting sponsors. Will send more emails today.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

schmalts · Feb 15, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

I got a reply from one of the RAC members. I will not say who or what he said until i have his blessing.
The short of it... He said they were sold a bunch of goods and forced to vote without knowing the actual figures and details. he said he will try to kill this when it gets a re-vote soon.
So.. PLEASE contact these guys and help sway the vote to kill this!! this is our only chance and this guy is on board!

AZ402 · Feb 15, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Lyle T. Button RMEF Arizona State Regional and Dan Hunter RMEF AZ State Volunteer chairmen are both friends of mine. I will contact them both and ask them about RMEF's position with USO. I will dump RMEF from my donation list if they are even on the fence with USO. I may have to put all my time and money into the Arizona Elk Society, who I know is looking out for the Resident hunters............

Founder · Feb 15, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Ok, I had to catch up on the talk. My opinion is, this Super Convention is a good thing. There are valid concerns in regard to the NR tags. But, this Super Convention could do HUGE amounts of good for the hunting world---by uniting conservation groups and showing lawmakers and others that we are a HUGE force in this country.

My personal opinion is that a large percentage of people who attend the Convention will be non-residents. SCI, MDF, and RMEF conventions draw people from all over, not just residents of Reno, NV. This will be no different.
I would dare guess more than half of the attendee's will be non-residents.

Instead of trying to put an end to the Big Event, maybe the mindset should be on trying to make it work for everyone (if possible).

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

txhunter58 · Feb 15, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

I would think most reasonble people would agree with you that the convention itself will be a good thing. The ONLY bad thing from our point of view is how many tags they are pulling and from where. If they pulled ALL the tags from residents, it would still only be 5% of their total. Just seems like 25% of nonresident tags is excessive when we only get 10% to begin with.

Thanks for the link Schmalts. I emailed all the RAC chairmen with my concerns. Unfortunately, like our concerns about higher tag prices, the residents generally look out for themselves, so don't know how responsive they will be to nonresident concerns.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

RLH · Feb 15, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

when the rmef first started i joined up. i liked the magazine mainly. had some nice photos in it. went to a couple banquets and stuff. but then it started to remind me of herbalife or amway or some other phony pyramid crap. their charter said one thing, but you see them taking a different direction. seems like the guys on the board were paid a good sum to be on it and i didn't like that either. they were getting a lot of land donated to them, etc. but the only folks i ever saw that got to use all this prime country they had, were celebrities. tell me, does anyone here personally know even one person who has ever got to hunt on any of these tracts that have been donated to them? i know that it's supposed to be for habitat improvement, but the only folks i ever hear of being able to hunt on the different places they control are all celebrities, so they can film them for their tv show. so who gets to hunt there? somebody does. does uso get to guide on these different places? just some questions i'd like to see answered. seems to me like the rmef does some token stuff for joe hunter, but that most of everything they do is geared to improve the opportunities for guys that are in the click. that's my take.

schmalts · Feb 16, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

>Ok, I had to catch up
>on the talk. My opinion
>is, this Super Convention is
>a good thing. There are
>valid concerns in regard to
>the NR tags. But, this
>Super Convention could do HUGE
>amounts of good for the
>hunting world---by uniting conservation groups
>and showing lawmakers and others
>that we are a HUGE
>force in this country.
>
>My personal opinion is that a
>large percentage of people who
>attend the Convention will be
>non-residents. SCI, MDF, and RMEF
>conventions draw people from all
>over, not just residents of
>Reno, NV. This will be
>no different.
>I would dare guess more than
>half of the attendee's will
>be non-residents.
>
>Instead of trying to put an
>end to the Big Event,
>maybe the mindset should be
>on trying to make it
>work for everyone (if possible).
>
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com

Brian, I agree but it goes on deaf ears. I tried contacting and talking with many at SFW and RMEF and they just tap dance around the real issue. I keep telling them they are liers when they say this will benifit everyone and proove it with simple math but they will not admit the nonres are getting a royal screwing
I am talking the majority of nonres who cannot affored money or time to attend a convention so far away.
Do the math and tell me the nonrmal nores are not getting screwed, i have not had anone proove me otherwise so i do not want to hear about how good this will be for EVERYONE.
the math.. take 10 times the percentage of tags from nonres, then when tag numbers increase in the future we get back 10 times less percentage. Even if LE tags went from 1000 to 1500 tags in the future the nonres are still in the hole.
this isnt just a nonres issue, its res alike that had enough of this.
there are many other issues that nonre sface on this. Like the fact this will push a lot more LE elk units to less than 3 tags making it almost impossable to draw as a 2 man group. Then the fact our bonus points become that much more meaningless. a lot of us put in for up to 11 years and it is wrong to have 25% more guys walk in front of us and get these tags. Had the SFW and whoever made this master plan took the tags percentagewise equal from res and nonres it would not have been so shocking. this is a bad deal for nonres and res alike. there has to be a better plan to make money, no one wants to look at anything but the easy way, and thats take it from the rich guy and let him cut in line.

Silentstalker_work · Feb 16, 2005

RE: Nonres hunters, Boycott RMEF

Founder,

You are absolutly right that this convention is a great idea. It could benefit wildlife tremendously. I doubt anyone would dispute that. That fact that they are taking 188 tags from the general public is wrong. These groups already get 340+ tags to raise money for wildlife. There is absolutly no good reason to give them 188 more. Let them rearrange or assign the tags they already have. In a state like ours, Utah, it is hard enough to draw a tag and taking more and more tags from the public is wrong. We are not against conservation or habitat improvement. I am totally against the abuses in the conservation tag program. Let them have the convention. Heck, I will even attend and support wildlife but I will not stand by idly and let them take more tags. Have a great day.

Chad