B
P
Pappabull
Guest
Yup, and with them calving now that picture will be played again and again and again. The calves are so vulnerable not only for the wolves but for the bears also. Just once I would like to see a picture of an elk kicking a wolf right in the chops.
There is just one thing that we have to remember, according to the wolf lovers and that is that "Wolves kill only the old and sick". I think I once saw a wolf walk up to an elk and ask "Are you old or sick?" When the answer was no the wolf just walked away without any lunch.
Pappabull
There is just one thing that we have to remember, according to the wolf lovers and that is that "Wolves kill only the old and sick". I think I once saw a wolf walk up to an elk and ask "Are you old or sick?" When the answer was no the wolf just walked away without any lunch.
Pappabull
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,529
Sure they Do! It just does away for the need for us to hunt them! They do our job for us, so we don't have to. Sounds logical to me, from a wacko, animal rights point of view.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
G
girlbowhunter
Guest
Yeah Im a wolf lover, Id like to sleep in one of there hides and taxi a full mount for the corner of my living room. Now that would be beautiful!
People Eating Taste Animals
People Eating Taste Animals
C
Chef
Guest
Couldn't help but think of how much of a lead I would hold on that running wolf.
Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"
Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"
OH DEAR GOD!!!!! WHY GOD WHY????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wait a minute....Was this wolf killing an elk in the Park? WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT WOULD EVER HAPPEN??? How many of you have hunted in the Park? If I saw that in my favorite hunting area I would be very disappointed but really the wolves are no different than someone coming into your favorite area and taking a few here and there. I would rather we talk about shooting some lowlife that poaches than killing a wolf in the Park. It seems selfish to me that we as humans want to hawg all the fun. I am all for open season on wolves when they step out of the Park, but for God's sake let's let things live when they are inside the Park!
Wait a minute....Was this wolf killing an elk in the Park? WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT WOULD EVER HAPPEN??? How many of you have hunted in the Park? If I saw that in my favorite hunting area I would be very disappointed but really the wolves are no different than someone coming into your favorite area and taking a few here and there. I would rather we talk about shooting some lowlife that poaches than killing a wolf in the Park. It seems selfish to me that we as humans want to hawg all the fun. I am all for open season on wolves when they step out of the Park, but for God's sake let's let things live when they are inside the Park!
HunterHarry
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,001
LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-05 AT 07:55PM (MST)[p]I'm with you.
"Let things live while inside the park"
Things like Elk.
"Let things live while inside the park"
Things like Elk.
U
usa
Guest
That would be great..... if they stayed in the park, but they just multiply and move on.
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,529
Zigga said:
"I am all for open season on wolves when they step out of the Park"
I don't really think many of us begrudge wolves that live in the park, but your statement is not rooted in reality. There will NEVER be an open season outside the park. Sure, they will eventually allow some token taking of wolves, but not enough to make a big difference. Too many lawsuits.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
"I am all for open season on wolves when they step out of the Park"
I don't really think many of us begrudge wolves that live in the park, but your statement is not rooted in reality. There will NEVER be an open season outside the park. Sure, they will eventually allow some token taking of wolves, but not enough to make a big difference. Too many lawsuits.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
After reading these threads to my wife, a wildlife biologist and avid hunter herself, she added a few things I thought I'd include here.
The title of this thread is an example of the main problem with the wolf-elk debate. People need to remember that WOLVES AND ELK DO MIX -they evolved together for thousands of years....they are the purely natural predator and prey. Anyone who knows anything about predator/prey relationships knows that you can't have one without the other and still have a healthy ecostystem. Bringing the wolves back to the Yellowstone Ecosytem is the greatest animal success story of all time - and not just for the wolves. The positive impact they have had on the entire ecosystem (including plants and many many other animals) is something too many of you are simply ignoring or not aware of. Anyone who thinks that the Park is better off with overgrazed land, unhealthy animals due to poor nutrition from overcrowding, and lack of predators needs to do some serious reading. Why not start with Aldo Leopold (the greatest outdoorsman of all time who advocated for bringing wolves back to balance nature) - he's written tons of great hunting stories and has a true sense of what appreciating nature (ALL OF NATURE) is all about.
The title of this thread is an example of the main problem with the wolf-elk debate. People need to remember that WOLVES AND ELK DO MIX -they evolved together for thousands of years....they are the purely natural predator and prey. Anyone who knows anything about predator/prey relationships knows that you can't have one without the other and still have a healthy ecostystem. Bringing the wolves back to the Yellowstone Ecosytem is the greatest animal success story of all time - and not just for the wolves. The positive impact they have had on the entire ecosystem (including plants and many many other animals) is something too many of you are simply ignoring or not aware of. Anyone who thinks that the Park is better off with overgrazed land, unhealthy animals due to poor nutrition from overcrowding, and lack of predators needs to do some serious reading. Why not start with Aldo Leopold (the greatest outdoorsman of all time who advocated for bringing wolves back to balance nature) - he's written tons of great hunting stories and has a true sense of what appreciating nature (ALL OF NATURE) is all about.
C
CUTTHROAT
Guest
I have seen about an hour of un-edited footage of wolves in the Lamar Valley as they attempted to kill elk. Many times during the footage elk would stop and face the wolves. They were not really panicked. Finally the wolves took down a cow. Upon further inspection it had a very arthritic back leg. It didn't seem to slow it down much, but just enough I guess. The wolves couldn't ever catch most of the elk they chased.
A second series of footage showed the wolves able to get down a very skinny, sickly raghorn from under a pine tree. He didn't even run.
From hours of footage I saw they were only able to get one arthritic cow and an already dying bull. It opened my eyes to the notion that wolves were killing machines. Mature, healthy elk can take care of themselves.
Of course calves are a different story, I'm sure. I don't know anything about that. Does anyone have an idea (based on science) how wolves impact elk calves?
A second series of footage showed the wolves able to get down a very skinny, sickly raghorn from under a pine tree. He didn't even run.
From hours of footage I saw they were only able to get one arthritic cow and an already dying bull. It opened my eyes to the notion that wolves were killing machines. Mature, healthy elk can take care of themselves.
Of course calves are a different story, I'm sure. I don't know anything about that. Does anyone have an idea (based on science) how wolves impact elk calves?
B
bobcatbess
Guest
HUNTERHARRY
WOULD YOU PLEASE SHOW Zigga A PICTURE OF YOUR WOLF???
DON'T WORRY Zigga,THE PIC HAS BEEN EDITED A LITTLE!!!
NOT SURE WHAT HE BLACKED OUT,LOL!!!
THE ONLY bobcat THINKING IT'S NOT THE SICK & WEAK ELK I'M WORRIED ABOUT,IT'S THEM 10-12+ YEAR OLD BULLS IN THE L.E. UNITS THAT ARE DIEING OF OLD AGE I'M WORRIED ABOUT!!!
WOULD YOU PLEASE SHOW Zigga A PICTURE OF YOUR WOLF???
DON'T WORRY Zigga,THE PIC HAS BEEN EDITED A LITTLE!!!
NOT SURE WHAT HE BLACKED OUT,LOL!!!
THE ONLY bobcat THINKING IT'S NOT THE SICK & WEAK ELK I'M WORRIED ABOUT,IT'S THEM 10-12+ YEAR OLD BULLS IN THE L.E. UNITS THAT ARE DIEING OF OLD AGE I'M WORRIED ABOUT!!!
W
wideone
Guest
I was studying a pack in Wyoming this winter.. There were between 11-13 wolves, depending on the week.. They did prefer older elk and calves, but they did kill mature healthy animals also.. I don't think you'll find any biologists out there that will say they don't kill the healthy; however, some animal nut might..
The interesting thing is that even though there was a large pack in the area, (as well as another pair of wolves) the game and fish who I worked closely with, (and who privately hated the wolves) told me that at the end of their elk counts, the numbers, as well as the calf/cow ratio was up from the previous year in that area.. So, in my humble opinion, yes, wolves are opportunistic killers,(like humans) however I do believe that there is MUCH more that goes into this equation than just the wolves and the elk themselves.. But, no one can control weather, and poachers are hard to catch, so many individuals like to target what they can.
just .02
The interesting thing is that even though there was a large pack in the area, (as well as another pair of wolves) the game and fish who I worked closely with, (and who privately hated the wolves) told me that at the end of their elk counts, the numbers, as well as the calf/cow ratio was up from the previous year in that area.. So, in my humble opinion, yes, wolves are opportunistic killers,(like humans) however I do believe that there is MUCH more that goes into this equation than just the wolves and the elk themselves.. But, no one can control weather, and poachers are hard to catch, so many individuals like to target what they can.
just .02
O
outtabreath
Guest
Where does the hatred of wolves come from? Everyone wants to kill them. I wish all the wolf hunters out there would atleast eat what they shoot. If it is just for fun and a fur rug, well, I think thats pathetic. If you are about protecting cattle from the bloddthirsty savages, just keep in mind that over half of our adolescents have rear ends bigger than some economy cars. The cattle are plentiful and so are the burgers. I just don't get the wolf killing thing. Self defense is one thing....but come on.
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
I don't think it is a hatred for wolves that causes most hunters to be concerned. Wolves very simply put compete directly with hunters for hunting opportunities. I know that Sportsmen for Fish & Wildlife of Wyoming never has called for the erradication of wolves but firmly believes Wyoming's wolf management plan should have been approved. 10 out of the 11 experts approved Wyoming's plan, why didn't the USFWS? It sure smacks of an ulterior motive to me.
You asked about eating wolves, I have a friend which claims wolf meat is some of the tastiest meat around. I believe his wife didn't like it once he told her what it was she had eaten. Early history shows that the native americans also liked wolf (or dog) meat. Face it though, times have changed from when vast areas of open space allowed for wildlife to freely roam this continent. Zigga claims that wolves and elk have co-existed for a long time.
First off, elk were a plains animal that moved to the mountainous areas because of hunting pressure and human expansion once predators were removed.
Second, the wolves that existed with elk in the Rockies was the Rocky Mountain wolf. The Canadian wolf is from an environment which is further north and consequentially is a much larger animal. That size is certain to have an advantage when it comes to killing animals within the Rocky Mountain Region.
Third, early journals account for very little animals in most of the arid west. Once large predators are restored to these ecosystems which have been altered what will happen to wildlife numbers? Should wolves and other large predators remain protected they will have severe impacts on not just hunting but on the American system of wildlife management that has worked for almost a century. Once hunters no longer can hunt and state agencies can no longer generate money from selling hunting licenses what will happen? Some states (like Wyoming) generate almost all of their money directly from the sell of hunting/fishing licenses. Who will support all wildlife once this occurs?
You asked about eating wolves, I have a friend which claims wolf meat is some of the tastiest meat around. I believe his wife didn't like it once he told her what it was she had eaten. Early history shows that the native americans also liked wolf (or dog) meat. Face it though, times have changed from when vast areas of open space allowed for wildlife to freely roam this continent. Zigga claims that wolves and elk have co-existed for a long time.
First off, elk were a plains animal that moved to the mountainous areas because of hunting pressure and human expansion once predators were removed.
Second, the wolves that existed with elk in the Rockies was the Rocky Mountain wolf. The Canadian wolf is from an environment which is further north and consequentially is a much larger animal. That size is certain to have an advantage when it comes to killing animals within the Rocky Mountain Region.
Third, early journals account for very little animals in most of the arid west. Once large predators are restored to these ecosystems which have been altered what will happen to wildlife numbers? Should wolves and other large predators remain protected they will have severe impacts on not just hunting but on the American system of wildlife management that has worked for almost a century. Once hunters no longer can hunt and state agencies can no longer generate money from selling hunting licenses what will happen? Some states (like Wyoming) generate almost all of their money directly from the sell of hunting/fishing licenses. Who will support all wildlife once this occurs?
O
outtabreath
Guest
Smokestick,
I'm sure that your wolf -eating friend is like one grain of sand on a beach. Ok, so its concern over hunting opportunities. Last time I heard there were more elk than any time in the last century. It must be because the wolf has all but been eradicated. I believe the jury is still out on the ( elk/wolf) co- existence debate. It just seems like people really have bad feeling for the critters and take great joy in killing them. They probably kick their dogs too. I love hunting as much as anyone on this site, but pulling the trigger and watching a beautiful animal die is not the part that really does it for me.
I have reverence for elk( and really all creatures). If you kill something without the intention of eating it and with no sense of reverence, well in my book, you're a numbskull who should stay at home with your Soldier of Fortune Magazine. and last time I looked at the drawing odds I was reassured that there is no shortage of hunter's dollars. So, I doubt the wolf will be a major factor in the imminent economic crash of the West. I bet it will have a litte more to do with water.
I'm sure that your wolf -eating friend is like one grain of sand on a beach. Ok, so its concern over hunting opportunities. Last time I heard there were more elk than any time in the last century. It must be because the wolf has all but been eradicated. I believe the jury is still out on the ( elk/wolf) co- existence debate. It just seems like people really have bad feeling for the critters and take great joy in killing them. They probably kick their dogs too. I love hunting as much as anyone on this site, but pulling the trigger and watching a beautiful animal die is not the part that really does it for me.
I have reverence for elk( and really all creatures). If you kill something without the intention of eating it and with no sense of reverence, well in my book, you're a numbskull who should stay at home with your Soldier of Fortune Magazine. and last time I looked at the drawing odds I was reassured that there is no shortage of hunter's dollars. So, I doubt the wolf will be a major factor in the imminent economic crash of the West. I bet it will have a litte more to do with water.
W
wideone
Guest
Smokestick,
That is true, they are definitely bigger wolves.. Two of the wolves I saw this winter were in the 130 lb. range, with most of them averaging around 90-110 lbs.. I think that the biggest problem,(especially in Wyoming) is that there has been an ongoing mistrust between most people living there and the government.. I think that it would have been a totally different story if the wolves would have made it down on their own; unfortunately though, here we are with a TON of wolves. You can be sure there are a few in Colorado and Utah now. The trick is going to be rather or not us humans can sit down and come to some sort of agreement that will allow wolves to roam, and hunters to hunt.. I really do think it can happen, but it's going to take work and patience.(and participation)
I do have to say that I have a TON of respect for wolves though.. I have gotten a signal on a wolf one day, and the next morning I watched the pack walk across the road in front of me, which was over into the next drainage, which took me an hour and twenty minutes to drive. When they want to move, they don't mess around.. I've also watched them sit around and play with each other, not a care in the world. One of the pups LOVED to harass Bison. He'd jump over a fence and run straight towards them, only to turn on the brakes five feet away, drop his front end, and wag his tail.
I just wish more people could see that side of wolves, or just see a wolf,period...
That is true, they are definitely bigger wolves.. Two of the wolves I saw this winter were in the 130 lb. range, with most of them averaging around 90-110 lbs.. I think that the biggest problem,(especially in Wyoming) is that there has been an ongoing mistrust between most people living there and the government.. I think that it would have been a totally different story if the wolves would have made it down on their own; unfortunately though, here we are with a TON of wolves. You can be sure there are a few in Colorado and Utah now. The trick is going to be rather or not us humans can sit down and come to some sort of agreement that will allow wolves to roam, and hunters to hunt.. I really do think it can happen, but it's going to take work and patience.(and participation)
I do have to say that I have a TON of respect for wolves though.. I have gotten a signal on a wolf one day, and the next morning I watched the pack walk across the road in front of me, which was over into the next drainage, which took me an hour and twenty minutes to drive. When they want to move, they don't mess around.. I've also watched them sit around and play with each other, not a care in the world. One of the pups LOVED to harass Bison. He'd jump over a fence and run straight towards them, only to turn on the brakes five feet away, drop his front end, and wag his tail.
I just wish more people could see that side of wolves, or just see a wolf,period...
B
bigbone
Guest
Wideone,
What have the wolves done for the moose in the teton and jackson areas south of the park? I heard that they have had to close the moose hunts down?
What have the wolves done for the moose in the teton and jackson areas south of the park? I heard that they have had to close the moose hunts down?
jkhunterid
Member
- Messages
- 38
While you are checking on the moose, check on the elk numbers in the park and migrating off since the wolf reintroduction. Check your tag numbers from before and then now.
I don't understand the mentality that all these moose and elk belong to you people and that the wolves are just killing them all. Who cares if the moose and elk numbers outside the park are dwindling unless you want to be the one to kill these animals yourself. Some areas go up in numbers, some go down, it's everchanging. In order for there to be a balance, which is what the Park needed, there are going to be ups and downs in all animal numbers when you add a predator like the wolf. I see the Park as a living breathing animal that is going through all sorts of changes and will continue to be for a period of time unkown to man long after we are gone. I'm sure in a few years the moose and elk numbers will rise again. Don't be in such a hurry. Nature never has been perfect. I would rather hunt elk and moose that are wild and majestic because they know that the big bad wolf could be right around the corner. If you wolf haters feel so strongly about this issue, then take the law into your own hands. Who is going to catch you?
D
D13er
Guest
Zigga,
You are an idealistic fool. This isn't 1492 and the west isn't wild anymore.
JB
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
You are an idealistic fool. This isn't 1492 and the west isn't wild anymore.
JB
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
jkhunterid
Member
- Messages
- 38
Zigga,
I don't hate wolves. Idaho has always had some wolves. What I hate is that a bunch of beauracrats forced us to release Canadian wolves into Idaho. Historically the predators and the prey had large areas to move and migrate to. Once we moved in and started building our homes the ecosystem was changed. Now a bunch of idiots are trying to tell us that the smaller systems they are managing are the whole deal. Unless you advocate poisoning most of the people in the west you aren't going to have a "balanced" system. If you want to feed your dogs and cats to the wolves and pass on any hunting that you do,then have at it.
I don't hate wolves. Idaho has always had some wolves. What I hate is that a bunch of beauracrats forced us to release Canadian wolves into Idaho. Historically the predators and the prey had large areas to move and migrate to. Once we moved in and started building our homes the ecosystem was changed. Now a bunch of idiots are trying to tell us that the smaller systems they are managing are the whole deal. Unless you advocate poisoning most of the people in the west you aren't going to have a "balanced" system. If you want to feed your dogs and cats to the wolves and pass on any hunting that you do,then have at it.
W
wile
Guest
Good informative post, but don't be too hard on your antagonists. I doubt they have even heard of Leopold, and most of their ethic is derived from an industrial model where Elk are not much more than cattle that need to be "managed." I would say the "Hunting Industry" needs an ethic reformation before the G&F depts of this country have to ear tag our "game" and hunting becomes like a Namibian "game preserve" (with apologies to hunting writers with deadlines to meet).
R
Rock
Guest
Get over it !
W
wideone
Guest
Bigbone,
Yes, the moose numbers are down.. I have looked into this, spoken with biologists, and have been out in the field myself, to come to my own conclusions.. We found two moose killed by wolves this year.. Did we miss some? Probably.. Are wolves The ONLY problem. NO.. I spent time between Jackson and Jackson lake, and in one day I counted 21 moose.. Don't know if that's a lot, or a little, probably depends on who you're talking to.. I do believe drought has taken a toll, as well as grizzlies.. Most of all, the numbers of moose hit by CARS, yes, us humans, exceeds any other source of mortality..
Yes, the moose numbers are down.. I have looked into this, spoken with biologists, and have been out in the field myself, to come to my own conclusions.. We found two moose killed by wolves this year.. Did we miss some? Probably.. Are wolves The ONLY problem. NO.. I spent time between Jackson and Jackson lake, and in one day I counted 21 moose.. Don't know if that's a lot, or a little, probably depends on who you're talking to.. I do believe drought has taken a toll, as well as grizzlies.. Most of all, the numbers of moose hit by CARS, yes, us humans, exceeds any other source of mortality..
D13er,
Idealistic fool?.....Thanks for the compliment. I was expecting someone to burn my house down and kill my family. You guys are all very gracious. Thank you. Your are right when you say the west isn't wild anymore, but you know what, we are all dealing with it. Just like the Park isn't wolf free any more and I am dealing with it. Apparently a lot better than the half of you that don't like wolves. If reintroducing wolves were up to me, I never would have allowed it because I hate it when we play God and it was a hornets nest from the very beginning. I think too many wolves were reintroduced in too short amount of time. But nobody is perfect. This issue is not much different than the abortion issue because you will not make everyone happy ever. And name calling sure doesn't hide anyones ignorance. I am embarrassed for you. Can we all just have intelligent conversations please? Let's just agree to disagree. Truce?
Idealistic fool?.....Thanks for the compliment. I was expecting someone to burn my house down and kill my family. You guys are all very gracious. Thank you. Your are right when you say the west isn't wild anymore, but you know what, we are all dealing with it. Just like the Park isn't wolf free any more and I am dealing with it. Apparently a lot better than the half of you that don't like wolves. If reintroducing wolves were up to me, I never would have allowed it because I hate it when we play God and it was a hornets nest from the very beginning. I think too many wolves were reintroduced in too short amount of time. But nobody is perfect. This issue is not much different than the abortion issue because you will not make everyone happy ever. And name calling sure doesn't hide anyones ignorance. I am embarrassed for you. Can we all just have intelligent conversations please? Let's just agree to disagree. Truce?
On this website click on Buffalo versus Grizzly. It has nothing to do with elk but these are great pictures of our predators in the Park which is the topic we are on. Forgive me if this was already on MM.
http://miketercek.com/
http://miketercek.com/
D
D13er
Guest
and your point is........???????????
JB
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
JB
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
B
bobcatbess
Guest
Zigga Zigga
WILL YOU PLEASE CHECK INTO SEEING IF SOMEBODY CAN CLONE SOME PRE-HISTORIC CREATURES SO WE CAN REINTRODUCE THEM???
YA SEE,WE HAVE WAY TOO MUCH GREEN GRASS THIS YEAR & COULD ACTUALLY LET SOME OF THEM BIG BEASTS TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SITUATION!!!
BESIDES,CAN YOU IMAGINE THE DECINEGRATION OF A MODERN DAY VEHICLE TRAVELING AT 90+ MPH & HITTING A 30 TON ANIMAL???
THE ONLY bobcat THINKING I'D CALL YOU A WOLF LOVIN HIPPIE BUT I'M NOT SURE YOU'RE A HIPPIE & I ONLY CALL EM AS I SEE EM!!!
WILL YOU PLEASE CHECK INTO SEEING IF SOMEBODY CAN CLONE SOME PRE-HISTORIC CREATURES SO WE CAN REINTRODUCE THEM???
YA SEE,WE HAVE WAY TOO MUCH GREEN GRASS THIS YEAR & COULD ACTUALLY LET SOME OF THEM BIG BEASTS TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SITUATION!!!
BESIDES,CAN YOU IMAGINE THE DECINEGRATION OF A MODERN DAY VEHICLE TRAVELING AT 90+ MPH & HITTING A 30 TON ANIMAL???
THE ONLY bobcat THINKING I'D CALL YOU A WOLF LOVIN HIPPIE BUT I'M NOT SURE YOU'RE A HIPPIE & I ONLY CALL EM AS I SEE EM!!!
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
Outtabreath,
Don't knock something until you try it. Many people in the world eat dog meat. Maybe you would like eating a wolf if you tried it too.
You mentioned that "It just seems like people really have bad feeling for the critters and take great joy in killing them. " So far no one has been able to kill wolves except for the USFWS, Wildlife Services, and a few ranchers. Hunting predators might not float your boat but how else do you manage them? Do you simply allow them to reproduce and reproduce until they come to some imaginary balance? You mention that you have reverence for elk yet you claim that you hunt them. Can not someone also have reverence for wolves and want to hunt them as well?
As wolves take more and more of the surplus wildlife populations hunting will cease. Once you can no longer hunt, where will state wildlife agencies obtain their funding? In many instances hunters are playing the role of the predator. The only areas where big game populations were causing problems were areas where hunting wasn't allowed and ungulate populations exceeded beyond their carrying capacity, degrading range conditions and reducing the diversity of all wildlife. Rather than allow hunting to occur, some nittwitts thought it would be great to return predators back to a system where they knew they would not stay. Now that they are present, they want to force their expansion to include all of Wyoming so that wolves can be forced into Colorado as well as other states. Hunters can be managed to accomplish specific outcomes whereas predators, wolves in particular, are killing machines that work 365 days a year.
Don't knock something until you try it. Many people in the world eat dog meat. Maybe you would like eating a wolf if you tried it too.
You mentioned that "It just seems like people really have bad feeling for the critters and take great joy in killing them. " So far no one has been able to kill wolves except for the USFWS, Wildlife Services, and a few ranchers. Hunting predators might not float your boat but how else do you manage them? Do you simply allow them to reproduce and reproduce until they come to some imaginary balance? You mention that you have reverence for elk yet you claim that you hunt them. Can not someone also have reverence for wolves and want to hunt them as well?
As wolves take more and more of the surplus wildlife populations hunting will cease. Once you can no longer hunt, where will state wildlife agencies obtain their funding? In many instances hunters are playing the role of the predator. The only areas where big game populations were causing problems were areas where hunting wasn't allowed and ungulate populations exceeded beyond their carrying capacity, degrading range conditions and reducing the diversity of all wildlife. Rather than allow hunting to occur, some nittwitts thought it would be great to return predators back to a system where they knew they would not stay. Now that they are present, they want to force their expansion to include all of Wyoming so that wolves can be forced into Colorado as well as other states. Hunters can be managed to accomplish specific outcomes whereas predators, wolves in particular, are killing machines that work 365 days a year.
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
Wideone,
I am certain that there is a place for wolves. I can equally appreciate their beauty and respect the role they play; however, there are some groups as well as individuals which are seeking to use the wolf for their gain. I have been involved with the wolf issue here in Wyoming for some time now. Most would admit that wolves have reached and in fact now exceed number necessary for recovery in the Yellowstone tri-state area. I personally believe that had we really wanted to do something to benefit wolves in this region we should have done something to benefit the species which was known to be present prior to the introduction of Canadian Wolves. The Rocky Mountain Wolf should have been protected by those which claim to support the Endangered Species Act yet they did nothing to protect them. They have an agenda and it is to redefine the west. They intend to use wolves to eliminate hunting as well as public land grazing. Once this occurs, many of the ranching community will be forced to sell their private property as they will not be able to maintain a successful livestock business with only one component. Those that hate private landowners need to understand that once they are forced to sell wildlife will suffer greatly. Several water systems will cease, development or urban sprawl shall increase, and wildlife habitats will be further fragmented. The West will once again become a desert, primarily devoid of wildlife as what water remains shall be sucked off for larger urbanized areas. These same groups/individuals believe that "nature" should run itself. Those that have spent any time with nature know all too well that nature is chaotic at best, and often deadly. Either way, their vision for the future doesn't have hunting nor will it have wildlife. Look at what was here in the West when Lewis & Clark passed through. I highly doubt they would have killed an eaten their transportation had there been abundant wildlife for them to eat.
I am certain that there is a place for wolves. I can equally appreciate their beauty and respect the role they play; however, there are some groups as well as individuals which are seeking to use the wolf for their gain. I have been involved with the wolf issue here in Wyoming for some time now. Most would admit that wolves have reached and in fact now exceed number necessary for recovery in the Yellowstone tri-state area. I personally believe that had we really wanted to do something to benefit wolves in this region we should have done something to benefit the species which was known to be present prior to the introduction of Canadian Wolves. The Rocky Mountain Wolf should have been protected by those which claim to support the Endangered Species Act yet they did nothing to protect them. They have an agenda and it is to redefine the west. They intend to use wolves to eliminate hunting as well as public land grazing. Once this occurs, many of the ranching community will be forced to sell their private property as they will not be able to maintain a successful livestock business with only one component. Those that hate private landowners need to understand that once they are forced to sell wildlife will suffer greatly. Several water systems will cease, development or urban sprawl shall increase, and wildlife habitats will be further fragmented. The West will once again become a desert, primarily devoid of wildlife as what water remains shall be sucked off for larger urbanized areas. These same groups/individuals believe that "nature" should run itself. Those that have spent any time with nature know all too well that nature is chaotic at best, and often deadly. Either way, their vision for the future doesn't have hunting nor will it have wildlife. Look at what was here in the West when Lewis & Clark passed through. I highly doubt they would have killed an eaten their transportation had there been abundant wildlife for them to eat.
O
outtabreath
Guest
Smokestick-
Maybe its tasty as hell. I'd try it if someone put it in front of me. Hell, I'll eat just about anything that comes outta the woods. I think your missing my point though. First, I really don't think most people that talk about popping a wolf's head off are really thinking about cutting it up and putting it in the freezer. Do you? . You asked how they should be managed...thats a good question. Historically, mankind has been just awesome at managing things. Especially NATURE. Hunters and ranchers talk about killing coyotes as if they are shooting at beer bottles. Scum of the earth little varmints that need to be kept in check. Well, look at the results of that approach. Coyotes are not going extinct anytime soon.You asked "do we allow them to reproduce and reproduce until they reach an imaginary balance?" And I answer with a question, do we poison and kill them until they become imaginary?
Maybe its tasty as hell. I'd try it if someone put it in front of me. Hell, I'll eat just about anything that comes outta the woods. I think your missing my point though. First, I really don't think most people that talk about popping a wolf's head off are really thinking about cutting it up and putting it in the freezer. Do you? . You asked how they should be managed...thats a good question. Historically, mankind has been just awesome at managing things. Especially NATURE. Hunters and ranchers talk about killing coyotes as if they are shooting at beer bottles. Scum of the earth little varmints that need to be kept in check. Well, look at the results of that approach. Coyotes are not going extinct anytime soon.You asked "do we allow them to reproduce and reproduce until they reach an imaginary balance?" And I answer with a question, do we poison and kill them until they become imaginary?
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
Have they been poisoned or killed to the point that they are imaginary? Your own argument refutes your claim. Coyotes, little varmits, and beer bottles are very numerous despite all of the hunters and ranchers shooting them indiscriminately.
Many predators are taking via hunters and not eaten. Some states require you to take them while others allow them to be taken without the intent of consuming their meat. It is great that you believe everything you kill you should eat. I agree that most people which have talked about killing wolves are unlikely to eat them; however, I still believe wolf populations must be regulated and managed just like any other animal. Predators can not reproduce unchecked without having significant impacts on hunting. I am a hunter which advocates hunting.
Many predators are taking via hunters and not eaten. Some states require you to take them while others allow them to be taken without the intent of consuming their meat. It is great that you believe everything you kill you should eat. I agree that most people which have talked about killing wolves are unlikely to eat them; however, I still believe wolf populations must be regulated and managed just like any other animal. Predators can not reproduce unchecked without having significant impacts on hunting. I am a hunter which advocates hunting.
B
bobcatbess
Guest
Zigga Zigga
ARE YOU A WOLF LOVIN HIPPIE???
OR WHATS YOUR TITLE???
HOW MUCH GREENBACK DO YOU PLAN ON INVESTING IN THE WOLF PLAN???
REMEMBER,WHEN I SEE A MULEY BEING HARASSED BY A BIG COYOTE I DON'T SHOOT RUBBER BULLETS!!!
DON'T EVEN TRY TO BE A bobcat AROUND HERE,UNLESS YOU LIKE BEING HATED!!!
A WOLF LOVIN HIPPIE WOULD BE LIKED ALOT MORE!!!
THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHAT THE HELL A Zigga IS???
ARE YOU A WOLF LOVIN HIPPIE???
OR WHATS YOUR TITLE???
HOW MUCH GREENBACK DO YOU PLAN ON INVESTING IN THE WOLF PLAN???
REMEMBER,WHEN I SEE A MULEY BEING HARASSED BY A BIG COYOTE I DON'T SHOOT RUBBER BULLETS!!!
DON'T EVEN TRY TO BE A bobcat AROUND HERE,UNLESS YOU LIKE BEING HATED!!!
A WOLF LOVIN HIPPIE WOULD BE LIKED ALOT MORE!!!
THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHAT THE HELL A Zigga IS???
A Zigga is exactly the same as a D13er, but the name was already taken.
I know of 2 instances in the last 4 years where wolves showed up along the Idaho-Montana border outside the Park and both times they were "kept in check" by a helicopter. Houses are about 9 miles apart in this area. Not unlike the video that led to this thread, wolves disappeared behind a hill out of site and the only thing to be seen again was the helicopter. No livestock were killed or even harrassed, no elk or moose were killed and to my knowledge no dogs and cats were fed to them either. There is little or no tolerance for wolves when they show up in most areas. A lot of imaginations run wild thinking that wolves are spreading like cancer and ruining hunting areas. I hunt in a wolf populated area and miraculously I still kill a bull every year. In fact, now I am putting in for a second elk tag. If you are worried about wolf overpopulation either contact your Governor or start shooting them. I'll send a great picture of wolf versus helicopter.
I know of 2 instances in the last 4 years where wolves showed up along the Idaho-Montana border outside the Park and both times they were "kept in check" by a helicopter. Houses are about 9 miles apart in this area. Not unlike the video that led to this thread, wolves disappeared behind a hill out of site and the only thing to be seen again was the helicopter. No livestock were killed or even harrassed, no elk or moose were killed and to my knowledge no dogs and cats were fed to them either. There is little or no tolerance for wolves when they show up in most areas. A lot of imaginations run wild thinking that wolves are spreading like cancer and ruining hunting areas. I hunt in a wolf populated area and miraculously I still kill a bull every year. In fact, now I am putting in for a second elk tag. If you are worried about wolf overpopulation either contact your Governor or start shooting them. I'll send a great picture of wolf versus helicopter.
O
outtabreath
Guest
All I know is that if I don't get drawn, I'm blaming the Wolf.
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
I'm not blaming the wolf for anything; I am just stating the facts. Wolves eat what we hunt. When they have reduced ungulate populations to the point where they can no longer sustain themselves who will go? It will be the hunters that are forced to stop hunting in those areas not the wolves. Once the hunters stop paying for hunting licenses who, will pick up the slack? Certainly not the leaf-lickers, bunny-huggers, wolf-lovin-hippies, etc. They currently do not contribute to wildlife management yet they insist that wolves be returned to their "traditional" stompin' grounds.
Wolves are contributing to low moose populations in Wyoming. Wolves are also impacting elk herds. Several areas will not meet the necessary reproductive rates needed to sustain their populations. Several have already been in the low teens and more than likely will begin hitting single digit numbers.
You may still be able to hunt in areas where wolves are living with elk/moose; however, the overall age of the animals you are hunting is lowering.
Zigga, you should not be encouraging people on this site or any other site to start killing wolves if they do not like the current situation. That is highly irresponsible and could lead to you being liable for your comments. The ESA is clearly being manipulated by some for their personal agenda. The only way we can change this is to demand that the ESA is amended or repealed. Breaking the law only makes Sportsmen look bad and plays directly into the hands of groups such as the National Humane Society, PETA, Defenders of Wildlife, etc. Judging from the number of posts and the posts you have made, I suspect that you both are probably more closely affiliated with the later groups than any hunting groups.
Wolves are contributing to low moose populations in Wyoming. Wolves are also impacting elk herds. Several areas will not meet the necessary reproductive rates needed to sustain their populations. Several have already been in the low teens and more than likely will begin hitting single digit numbers.
You may still be able to hunt in areas where wolves are living with elk/moose; however, the overall age of the animals you are hunting is lowering.
Zigga, you should not be encouraging people on this site or any other site to start killing wolves if they do not like the current situation. That is highly irresponsible and could lead to you being liable for your comments. The ESA is clearly being manipulated by some for their personal agenda. The only way we can change this is to demand that the ESA is amended or repealed. Breaking the law only makes Sportsmen look bad and plays directly into the hands of groups such as the National Humane Society, PETA, Defenders of Wildlife, etc. Judging from the number of posts and the posts you have made, I suspect that you both are probably more closely affiliated with the later groups than any hunting groups.
T
thatcherwyo1
Guest
First of all Zigga, "Shoot em if you don't like them". Give me a break. I know some that have already taken that rout, even though it is irresponsible, and to encourage that will lead to greater problems for the hunters. Maybe that is your motivation, I don't know. Believe me those of us here in Wyoming have already been chomping on the Government's ear for a while and nothing has happened. Personally I think a season similar to mountain lion here in WY would be a good start. Would I eat it, no. But it would look good in the Trophy room, if I ever get a trophy room. Bigbone not only have the moose populations in Jackson been hurt but the moose populations here in SW WY (over 200 miles south of the Park!!!) have been devestated by the combination of Wolves and drought. Used to be able to drive the Hamsfork road and see 20 moose in about 50 miles. Now you are lucky to catch 5 or 6. bobcatbess, I read on a different post you were concerned with the advancement of wolves and them getting to Utah. Already happened. I know for a fact of a pack of 10-13 wolves roaming the hills in Rich Co. just SE of Bear lake. I imagine they are already into the Logan area mountains also. I don't think every wolf needs killed. Thin them out back to the park. The balance of nature in this day in age is no longer up to mother nature. We took that out of her hands decades ago with technology and development. We now have the responsibility to manage animals. No other super predators need apply.
Happy Hunting
Thatcherwyo
Happy Hunting
Thatcherwyo
T
thatcherwyo1
Guest
Looks like a good time. Government agents get to have all the fun.
Good Hunting!!!
thatcherwyo1
Good Hunting!!!
thatcherwyo1
H
HoytHntr
Guest
How many pt's does it take to draw that hunt?
W
wideone
Guest
They finally darted that wolf, after it gave them some grief.. He's one of the wolves in the Lamar Valley, from the Druid pack I believe.. He's a big 'un...
D
D13er
Guest
If they're not shooting they're just wasting jet-A.
JB
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
JB
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
B
bobcatbess
Guest
SO,I TAKE IT THATS MARTY STAUFFER FILMING THE WHOLE SHOW RIGHT???
THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING HOW MUCH EACH WOLF WILL COST US IN THE END??? (AND NO I'M NOT GIVING MY GENERAL DEER TAG UP BECAUSE MR. WOLF IS HUNGRY,YA SEE I LIKE DEER CHOPS TOO!!!)
THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING HOW MUCH EACH WOLF WILL COST US IN THE END??? (AND NO I'M NOT GIVING MY GENERAL DEER TAG UP BECAUSE MR. WOLF IS HUNGRY,YA SEE I LIKE DEER CHOPS TOO!!!)
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
Where are you getting your information? Last I heard Park visitation has been down every since the introduced wolves. First, it was blamed on the economy. Is it the drought that is now keeping people away from the Park?
Wolves have cost more money that they will ever generate. The part that really makes infuriates is that those that want wolves are not paying for any part of their impact on wildlife populations.
The Park isn't the issue either. What is at issue is that wolves are expanding. The USFWS chose to reject Wyoming's wolf management plan because it stopped them from being able to spread their disease throughout the entire Rocky Mountain Region. Pretty amazing that when you look at DNA there isn't much genetic difference between a dog and a wolf. In other words a wolf is nothing more than a feral dog. Does that warrant species protection?
Wolves have cost more money that they will ever generate. The part that really makes infuriates is that those that want wolves are not paying for any part of their impact on wildlife populations.
The Park isn't the issue either. What is at issue is that wolves are expanding. The USFWS chose to reject Wyoming's wolf management plan because it stopped them from being able to spread their disease throughout the entire Rocky Mountain Region. Pretty amazing that when you look at DNA there isn't much genetic difference between a dog and a wolf. In other words a wolf is nothing more than a feral dog. Does that warrant species protection?
B
bobcatbess
Guest
WELL ZIGGA
NOW YOU CAN BE MAD AT SMOKESTICK TOO!!!
THERES PLACES FOR WOLVES,UTAH AIN'T ONE OF THEM,IF YOU CAN'T SEE THAT OPEN YOUR EYES!!!
HOW MUCH OF THE MONEY GENERATED IN THE PARK IS ACTUALLY GOING TOWARDS PROBLEMS CAUSED BY THE WOLVES???
I DON'T SEE HOW WE CAN AFFORD THEM IN MANY WAYS!!!
I KNOW YOU'RE A WOLF LOVER,YOU NEVER DID TELL ME IF YOU'RE A HIPPIE???
THE ONLY bobcat NOT CALLING A HIPPIE A HIPPIE UNTIL THEY ADMIT THEY'RE A HIPPIE!!!
NOW YOU CAN BE MAD AT SMOKESTICK TOO!!!
THERES PLACES FOR WOLVES,UTAH AIN'T ONE OF THEM,IF YOU CAN'T SEE THAT OPEN YOUR EYES!!!
HOW MUCH OF THE MONEY GENERATED IN THE PARK IS ACTUALLY GOING TOWARDS PROBLEMS CAUSED BY THE WOLVES???
I DON'T SEE HOW WE CAN AFFORD THEM IN MANY WAYS!!!
I KNOW YOU'RE A WOLF LOVER,YOU NEVER DID TELL ME IF YOU'RE A HIPPIE???
THE ONLY bobcat NOT CALLING A HIPPIE A HIPPIE UNTIL THEY ADMIT THEY'RE A HIPPIE!!!
Hey, I'm not mad at anyone. I totally respect other peoples opinion. If we all thought alike then I guess we would all know everything. I am only on this topic because I live right in the middle of the wolves and hunt with them and am only going by personal experience and what the local paper tells me. I'm not telling you whether or not Utah should have wolves because, I AIN'T IN UTAH! When I was a kid, Yellowstone Park bored me because we would see buffalo and elk all the time. Now I go 5 or 6 times a year hoping to see wolves. I saw one during rifle season and one in early June, both outside the park obviously. The last 4 years of archery season have been the best ever. No, not because of the wolves! Why?... I don't know. I just haven't seen them do enough damage to the elk population outside the Park to start worrying about them. I'll be the first one to ##### if they affect my hunting. The Northern herd was grossly overpopulated 10 years ago. Like I said before, the wolves do get their peter slapped when they are outside the Park no matter what people are telling you. I choose not to live in fear of what the wolves may do "some day". I live in the now and hunting has never been better here.
B
bobcatbess
Guest
ZIGGA ZIGGA
MAYBE THE SITUATION IS DIFFERENT WHERE EVER YOU LIVE???
HERE IN UTAH I KNOW OF VERY FEW PLACES THERE WOULDN'T BE CONFLICT BETWEEN THE WOLVES AND PRIVATE LAND OWNERS!!!
OUR GAME HERDS MIGRATE,IN TURN THE WOLVES WILL MIGRATE TO LOWER GROUND WHICH IS MOSTLY PRIVATE!!!
A 500.00 COW OR HORSE KILLED BY A WOLF WILL IMEDIATELY BE A COW OR HORSE WORTH 12,000.00,THE RANCHER WILL WANT COMPANSATION,WHERE WILL THE MONEY COME FROM???
OUR DEER HERD IS ALREADY IN TROUBLE & BELOW OBJECTIVES & NO I'M NOT BUYING THE WOLF ONLY EATS THE WEAK & SICK!!!
IF THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY DAMAGE TO THE ELK HERD UP THERE WHY HAS THAT YELLOWSTONE HUNT BEEN CUT TOO I HEAR ABOUT 5 PERMITS???
I'M NOT AGAINST THE WOLVES WORLD WIDE,THERE ARE PLACES FOR THEM & PLACES NOT FOR THEM,WE SURE AS HELL CAN'T AFFORD THEM HERE,TOO MUCH CONFLICT,TOO MANY UTARDS THAT WILL SHOOT THEM ON SIGHT,ANYTIME OF YEAR NO MATTER WHAT THE LAW SAYS,I'M NOT SAYING BREAKING THE LAW IS RIGHT CAUSE IT AIN'T,JUST TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS!!!
THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING IF SOMEBODY OUT THERE CAN CLONE SOME PRE-HISTORIC CREATURES,WE COULD ALWAYS RE-INTRODUCE THEM TOO!!!
MAYBE THE SITUATION IS DIFFERENT WHERE EVER YOU LIVE???
HERE IN UTAH I KNOW OF VERY FEW PLACES THERE WOULDN'T BE CONFLICT BETWEEN THE WOLVES AND PRIVATE LAND OWNERS!!!
OUR GAME HERDS MIGRATE,IN TURN THE WOLVES WILL MIGRATE TO LOWER GROUND WHICH IS MOSTLY PRIVATE!!!
A 500.00 COW OR HORSE KILLED BY A WOLF WILL IMEDIATELY BE A COW OR HORSE WORTH 12,000.00,THE RANCHER WILL WANT COMPANSATION,WHERE WILL THE MONEY COME FROM???
OUR DEER HERD IS ALREADY IN TROUBLE & BELOW OBJECTIVES & NO I'M NOT BUYING THE WOLF ONLY EATS THE WEAK & SICK!!!
IF THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY DAMAGE TO THE ELK HERD UP THERE WHY HAS THAT YELLOWSTONE HUNT BEEN CUT TOO I HEAR ABOUT 5 PERMITS???
I'M NOT AGAINST THE WOLVES WORLD WIDE,THERE ARE PLACES FOR THEM & PLACES NOT FOR THEM,WE SURE AS HELL CAN'T AFFORD THEM HERE,TOO MUCH CONFLICT,TOO MANY UTARDS THAT WILL SHOOT THEM ON SIGHT,ANYTIME OF YEAR NO MATTER WHAT THE LAW SAYS,I'M NOT SAYING BREAKING THE LAW IS RIGHT CAUSE IT AIN'T,JUST TELLING IT THE WAY IT IS!!!
THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING IF SOMEBODY OUT THERE CAN CLONE SOME PRE-HISTORIC CREATURES,WE COULD ALWAYS RE-INTRODUCE THEM TOO!!!
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
Zigga,
I too live in Wyoming. From what I hear and see there is a lot to question the validity of you statement. Wolves are impacting elk but they have definitely hurt moose populations. I also have a degree in wildlife management. The cow:calf ratios are so low in many units around the Park that those herds are not able to sustain themselves. It isn't just the Northern elk herd which has been significantly reduced. Hunting opportunities will begin to fade. When you can no longer hunt in Western Wyoming where will you hunt? Where will all of the other hunters hunt? The Eastern half of Wyoming can not sustain all of the resident hunters, even if all of the private property was opened up. Do you understand that wolves will force Wyoming into a draw system for elk? Wolves will end moose hunting and could significantly impact big horn sheep hunting as well.
The only time wolves get into trouble is when they kill livestock. They can harass wildlife, even run them off of the feed grounds and there is absolutely nothing that can be done. Fortunately, livestock producers didn't have their heads burried in the sand when wolves were introduced otherwise we would have no relief.
I too live in Wyoming. From what I hear and see there is a lot to question the validity of you statement. Wolves are impacting elk but they have definitely hurt moose populations. I also have a degree in wildlife management. The cow:calf ratios are so low in many units around the Park that those herds are not able to sustain themselves. It isn't just the Northern elk herd which has been significantly reduced. Hunting opportunities will begin to fade. When you can no longer hunt in Western Wyoming where will you hunt? Where will all of the other hunters hunt? The Eastern half of Wyoming can not sustain all of the resident hunters, even if all of the private property was opened up. Do you understand that wolves will force Wyoming into a draw system for elk? Wolves will end moose hunting and could significantly impact big horn sheep hunting as well.
The only time wolves get into trouble is when they kill livestock. They can harass wildlife, even run them off of the feed grounds and there is absolutely nothing that can be done. Fortunately, livestock producers didn't have their heads burried in the sand when wolves were introduced otherwise we would have no relief.
R
Rock
Guest
Guy's & Gal's
Everything you read is about how bad the wolves are or how good they are. The fact is that wolves are going to be here alot longer than you & me. Your message has been heard,seen,and pushed to even calling names!Like I said before GET OVER IT !!.
Why is it that everyone is focus on what the wolves have taken what about that SOB poaching in your state & your best hunting spot. I bet he takes more from you and me every year than the wolves do.
ROCK
Everything you read is about how bad the wolves are or how good they are. The fact is that wolves are going to be here alot longer than you & me. Your message has been heard,seen,and pushed to even calling names!Like I said before GET OVER IT !!.
Why is it that everyone is focus on what the wolves have taken what about that SOB poaching in your state & your best hunting spot. I bet he takes more from you and me every year than the wolves do.
ROCK
C
cpsandman
Guest
Interesting debate. Some good info I did not know on the wolf up there but urban sprawl scares the $%!@$%@ out of me more then the big bad wolf when it comes to wildlife populations. My fellow Utard BESS knows what I mean...how many times a year does the old KSL news show some poor Elk, Moose, Deer stuck in someones backyard in the foothills? Reporter: "Can you tell us what you saw?" Homeowner: "Well me and the Mrs just got home from church when we heard a ruckus in the back yard. You can imagine our surprise when this 'ol moose steps out from behind the bushes. We never thought this would happen at our house. Don't moose live up in the mountains?" Reporter: "Yes they do but isn't your house on the mountain?" Homeowner: "I guess you could say that but heck there's a Super Walmart just 5 minutes away..." SCARY!
CPSANDMAN
"The Buck stops here...I hope!"
CPSANDMAN
"The Buck stops here...I hope!"
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
Rock,
It isn't that wolves are good or bad. Wolves are wolves. They eat red meat 365 days a year. No management of wolves allows their numbers to continually increase. When it comes down to maintaining hunting or maintaining wolves which do you think will win that argument? I have no doubt which will win the debate. Those that desire to end hunting also know which side will win the debate. They will argue that we (in the USA) no longer need to hunt for sustenance. Wolves are natural predators and can manage our wildlife for us.
Until the USFWS allows states to manage wolves I will not get over it. Those that desire to take away your hunting privledges don't sleep and those that want to protect the future of hunting had better wake up. Otherwise, we may be the around to see the last generation of hunters. Once you can no longer hunt, how long before they call for your guns? Rest assured that is their true agenda. They don't care for wolves otherwise they would have sought to save the Rocky Mountain wolf rather than taking the easy road an INTRODUCING the Gray wolf.
If Sportsmen do not protect our hunting/trapping heritage who will? Defender's of Wildlife, P.E.T.A., the Sierra Club?
I have said it before; wolves pose the greatest threat to our continued hunting heritage. Sit back and watch it happen or do something to stop it from occurring. King Edward needs to be dethroned.
It isn't that wolves are good or bad. Wolves are wolves. They eat red meat 365 days a year. No management of wolves allows their numbers to continually increase. When it comes down to maintaining hunting or maintaining wolves which do you think will win that argument? I have no doubt which will win the debate. Those that desire to end hunting also know which side will win the debate. They will argue that we (in the USA) no longer need to hunt for sustenance. Wolves are natural predators and can manage our wildlife for us.
Until the USFWS allows states to manage wolves I will not get over it. Those that desire to take away your hunting privledges don't sleep and those that want to protect the future of hunting had better wake up. Otherwise, we may be the around to see the last generation of hunters. Once you can no longer hunt, how long before they call for your guns? Rest assured that is their true agenda. They don't care for wolves otherwise they would have sought to save the Rocky Mountain wolf rather than taking the easy road an INTRODUCING the Gray wolf.
If Sportsmen do not protect our hunting/trapping heritage who will? Defender's of Wildlife, P.E.T.A., the Sierra Club?
I have said it before; wolves pose the greatest threat to our continued hunting heritage. Sit back and watch it happen or do something to stop it from occurring. King Edward needs to be dethroned.
R
Rock
Guest
Smokestick
I eat red meat 365 days a year. Are you going to figuer out how to manage red meat eatting guys like me? I think what has everyone down about the wolves of the WILD. Wolves don't care how big the bull is or if it's non-typical like all us hunters do. Smokestick I feel like theres bigger fish to fry out here. If it's not the wolve soon it will be the bear,Mt.lion,etc.when will it stop! Then what the hell are you going to itch about.
Have a great 4th of July!!!!!!
Rock
I eat red meat 365 days a year. Are you going to figuer out how to manage red meat eatting guys like me? I think what has everyone down about the wolves of the WILD. Wolves don't care how big the bull is or if it's non-typical like all us hunters do. Smokestick I feel like theres bigger fish to fry out here. If it's not the wolve soon it will be the bear,Mt.lion,etc.when will it stop! Then what the hell are you going to itch about.
Have a great 4th of July!!!!!!
Rock
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
Rock,
Even though you eat read meat 365 days a year you are restricted in the amount of game you can take. Do you believe that wolves can be regulated like hunters are? Hunters can and will see reduced hunting opportunity because of wolves. Wyoming has long lived with grizzly bears being over their original recovery objective. Grizzly bears are limited in their abililty to impact ungulate populations because they primarily take only new born calves. Wolves kill all age classes, and have been shown to have a higher taking of bull elk than was originally thought.
You are correct when you state that wolves don't care whether it is a B&C bull, cow, or calf. They simply do what wolves are programed to do, kill. In fact, if a Sportsman did what wolves do they would lose their hunting priviledges for life. Wolves do not always consume what they kill. In fact several times they have simply killed to kill. When I was getting my degree in wildlife management they talked about the predator cycle; search, locate, pursue, kill, and consume. Then the cycle resumes again. However, a theory exists that this cycle can be short-circuted resulting in surplus killings where little if any of the animals killed are consumed. This results in considerable wasting of wildlife.
You also got it backwards; first it was the coyote, then it was the cougar, follwed by bears (both black and grizzly), and now it is the wolf. Wolves are being used as a tool to end hunting as well as public land grazing. Don't believe it? Sit back and watch as hunting opportunity continues to decline and ranchers are forced to sell to developers.
What possibly could pose a greater threat to hunting than wolves?
Even though you eat read meat 365 days a year you are restricted in the amount of game you can take. Do you believe that wolves can be regulated like hunters are? Hunters can and will see reduced hunting opportunity because of wolves. Wyoming has long lived with grizzly bears being over their original recovery objective. Grizzly bears are limited in their abililty to impact ungulate populations because they primarily take only new born calves. Wolves kill all age classes, and have been shown to have a higher taking of bull elk than was originally thought.
You are correct when you state that wolves don't care whether it is a B&C bull, cow, or calf. They simply do what wolves are programed to do, kill. In fact, if a Sportsman did what wolves do they would lose their hunting priviledges for life. Wolves do not always consume what they kill. In fact several times they have simply killed to kill. When I was getting my degree in wildlife management they talked about the predator cycle; search, locate, pursue, kill, and consume. Then the cycle resumes again. However, a theory exists that this cycle can be short-circuted resulting in surplus killings where little if any of the animals killed are consumed. This results in considerable wasting of wildlife.
You also got it backwards; first it was the coyote, then it was the cougar, follwed by bears (both black and grizzly), and now it is the wolf. Wolves are being used as a tool to end hunting as well as public land grazing. Don't believe it? Sit back and watch as hunting opportunity continues to decline and ranchers are forced to sell to developers.
What possibly could pose a greater threat to hunting than wolves?
D
dabassmasta
Guest
couldn't agree more, try not to pay too much attention to some, especially those that refer to themselves in the third person.
SMOKESTACK,
We all know your side! Some of us are saying that wolves will SOON be regulated and the sky is NOT falling. Montana, Idaho and Wyoming are all working very hard to keep a balance. Wolves will not ruin your hunting, I friggin promise. If they do, then fight for your right for high fence hunting because that seems like what anti wolvers seem to really want. Get over it already!!!!!!!!!! How can some of you sleep at night with the amount of fear you seem to be dealing with? Wake up and smell reality and the the B.S. and fear the wolf haters are pumping you full of.
THE END
We all know your side! Some of us are saying that wolves will SOON be regulated and the sky is NOT falling. Montana, Idaho and Wyoming are all working very hard to keep a balance. Wolves will not ruin your hunting, I friggin promise. If they do, then fight for your right for high fence hunting because that seems like what anti wolvers seem to really want. Get over it already!!!!!!!!!! How can some of you sleep at night with the amount of fear you seem to be dealing with? Wake up and smell reality and the the B.S. and fear the wolf haters are pumping you full of.
THE END
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
ZigZag,
Please define soon?
When do you think wolves will be de-listed?
How can you promise that wolves will not ruin hunting? Do you know something that the rest of us don't?
I'm unsure where you got the idea that anti-wolvers want to hunt high fences. Perhaps someone you know and trust can read you these posts and explain them as apparently you aren't getting all of the information correct.
First of all, I am not anti-wolf; however, I am pro-states rights. Wyoming should be allowed to manage their wildlife resources how they want to not how King "Edward" dictates it.
Perhaps that is too difficult for you to comprehend, but I will keep fighting to educate Sportsmen. You can try and lull me as well as others to sleep but it isn't going to happen.
No one is pumping me full of anything. I have a degree in wildlife management and have actively managed wildlife for almost 15 years. Here are a few things I can promise you and anyone else:
1-Wolves do have an impact.
2-They are directly competing for a limited resource.
3-Wolves will always trump hunters when ungulate populations are depressed.
4-It will be difficult if not impossible for wolf numbers to be reduced to the original goal of 30 breeding pairs evenly distributed among the tri-state area.
5-Short of King Edward being sent packing, wolves will not be de-listed anytime soon.
And you can take that to the BANK.
Far from THE END!
Please define soon?
When do you think wolves will be de-listed?
How can you promise that wolves will not ruin hunting? Do you know something that the rest of us don't?
I'm unsure where you got the idea that anti-wolvers want to hunt high fences. Perhaps someone you know and trust can read you these posts and explain them as apparently you aren't getting all of the information correct.
First of all, I am not anti-wolf; however, I am pro-states rights. Wyoming should be allowed to manage their wildlife resources how they want to not how King "Edward" dictates it.
Perhaps that is too difficult for you to comprehend, but I will keep fighting to educate Sportsmen. You can try and lull me as well as others to sleep but it isn't going to happen.
No one is pumping me full of anything. I have a degree in wildlife management and have actively managed wildlife for almost 15 years. Here are a few things I can promise you and anyone else:
1-Wolves do have an impact.
2-They are directly competing for a limited resource.
3-Wolves will always trump hunters when ungulate populations are depressed.
4-It will be difficult if not impossible for wolf numbers to be reduced to the original goal of 30 breeding pairs evenly distributed among the tri-state area.
5-Short of King Edward being sent packing, wolves will not be de-listed anytime soon.
And you can take that to the BANK.
Far from THE END!
eelgrass
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 31,422
SMOKESTICK,
Very well put! I hear you loud and clear! A lot of us hear you loud and clear!
You don't have to have a degree in wildlife management to figure out that wolves will impact hunting opportunities.
The environmentalists are operating under the authority of the Endangered Species Act. When wolves are established to their satisfaction, they will move to the next step (I don't know what that is but I'm sure they have a plan). It won't stop until the only hunting left will be on Playstation.
Steve
Very well put! I hear you loud and clear! A lot of us hear you loud and clear!
You don't have to have a degree in wildlife management to figure out that wolves will impact hunting opportunities.
The environmentalists are operating under the authority of the Endangered Species Act. When wolves are established to their satisfaction, they will move to the next step (I don't know what that is but I'm sure they have a plan). It won't stop until the only hunting left will be on Playstation.
Steve
SS,
Lucky for you wolf haters, this is my last post on the w-word. (Didn't want to scare anyone)
It sounds like you are very frightened yet I am glad you strive to educate sportsmen. Congratulations on the wildlife degree.
You said,
"First of all, I am not anti-wolf; however, I am pro-states rights. Wyoming should be allowed to manage their wildlife resources how they want to not how King "Edward" dictates it."
I say,
"I agree." That ball has been rolling. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I pump hundreds of dollars towards RMEF and other organizations every year, wish I could pay more but I do need to eat. Have you read the last BUGLE magazine? You should have got it in the mail a couple weeks ago!!! Contact your mailman immediately if you haven't received it yet!!! They have a very strong voice thanks to people like you, me, us and they have an excellent idea on how to make elk hunters happy. It's a work in progress.
You said,
"Wolves do have an impact."
I say,
"Who doesn't know that?"
I have seen wolves on my favorite public hunting grounds. Have you? Where elk numbers are at right now, you would have to be a blind, deaf and dumb moron to get skunked every year. That is where the high fence comment came in. If you have a high fence, then the wolves can't get to your elk and you can shoot them yourself without any competition. Get it???
You said,
"It will be difficult if not impossible for wolf numbers to be reduced to the original goal of 30 breeding pairs evenly distributed among the tri-state area."
I say,
"Stop living in fear and give FWP, organizations like RMEF and others a chance to speak their voice and do their job of providing a future for elk in a sustainable fashion. Complaining over and over on this website ain't cuttin' it".
I'd love to predict the future but it sounds like the anti-wolfers have it all figured out. I have to go now and work extra jobs to pay for my 350" bull that I am getting mounted from this coming September. The only difference between you and I is that I am optomistic and feel that my donations are going to a good cause. Are yours???
You said,
"Good riddance zigzag."
I say,
"Zigzag out."
Lucky for you wolf haters, this is my last post on the w-word. (Didn't want to scare anyone)
It sounds like you are very frightened yet I am glad you strive to educate sportsmen. Congratulations on the wildlife degree.
You said,
"First of all, I am not anti-wolf; however, I am pro-states rights. Wyoming should be allowed to manage their wildlife resources how they want to not how King "Edward" dictates it."
I say,
"I agree." That ball has been rolling. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I pump hundreds of dollars towards RMEF and other organizations every year, wish I could pay more but I do need to eat. Have you read the last BUGLE magazine? You should have got it in the mail a couple weeks ago!!! Contact your mailman immediately if you haven't received it yet!!! They have a very strong voice thanks to people like you, me, us and they have an excellent idea on how to make elk hunters happy. It's a work in progress.
You said,
"Wolves do have an impact."
I say,
"Who doesn't know that?"
I have seen wolves on my favorite public hunting grounds. Have you? Where elk numbers are at right now, you would have to be a blind, deaf and dumb moron to get skunked every year. That is where the high fence comment came in. If you have a high fence, then the wolves can't get to your elk and you can shoot them yourself without any competition. Get it???
You said,
"It will be difficult if not impossible for wolf numbers to be reduced to the original goal of 30 breeding pairs evenly distributed among the tri-state area."
I say,
"Stop living in fear and give FWP, organizations like RMEF and others a chance to speak their voice and do their job of providing a future for elk in a sustainable fashion. Complaining over and over on this website ain't cuttin' it".
I'd love to predict the future but it sounds like the anti-wolfers have it all figured out. I have to go now and work extra jobs to pay for my 350" bull that I am getting mounted from this coming September. The only difference between you and I is that I am optomistic and feel that my donations are going to a good cause. Are yours???
You said,
"Good riddance zigzag."
I say,
"Zigzag out."
D
D13er
Guest
Zigga,
I just can't come up with a better definition for you than "idealistic fool". You are what you are.
JB
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
I just can't come up with a better definition for you than "idealistic fool". You are what you are.
JB
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
SMOKESTICK
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
ZigZag,
I never said "Good riddance zigzag", that came from you.
I have also seen a wolf in the wild near Jackson. It isn't that wolves are bad as much as it is the USFWS refuses to allow Wyoming to manage woles they way the people of Wyoming want them managed. You should be able to understand that concept.
Sorry I haven't read the Bugle magazine since the name change. I won't say anything negative about the RMEF as I know they do good things for elk and wildlife in general. However, I will state that they have been weak on this issue. Perhaps they are finally realizing that without elk to hunt they will lose a lot of their members.
I hope you get your 350 bull that you are working so hard to raise money to mount. Perhaps this may be your last chance at killing a great bull. What about the next generation? Do you think about them? I am equally sure that my son would like an opportunity to kill a 350 bull as well.
As far as the ball rolling, it hasn't been the RMEF in Wyoming that has been rolling the ball it has been a coalition comprised of several diverse groups. I have been and will continue to educate Sportsmen so that they can refute claims such as yours. You see, I don't just sit around and complain on this site or any other. I have been working to ensure that Wyoming has the ability to manage wolves as they see fit. King Edward may wish to dictate and mandate that wolves be allowed to roam throughout all of Wyoming but I intend to do everything I can to thwart his attempts to further that agenda.
And just for the record, it isn't the w-word you need to be careful of it is the p-word.
I never said "Good riddance zigzag", that came from you.
I have also seen a wolf in the wild near Jackson. It isn't that wolves are bad as much as it is the USFWS refuses to allow Wyoming to manage woles they way the people of Wyoming want them managed. You should be able to understand that concept.
Sorry I haven't read the Bugle magazine since the name change. I won't say anything negative about the RMEF as I know they do good things for elk and wildlife in general. However, I will state that they have been weak on this issue. Perhaps they are finally realizing that without elk to hunt they will lose a lot of their members.
I hope you get your 350 bull that you are working so hard to raise money to mount. Perhaps this may be your last chance at killing a great bull. What about the next generation? Do you think about them? I am equally sure that my son would like an opportunity to kill a 350 bull as well.
As far as the ball rolling, it hasn't been the RMEF in Wyoming that has been rolling the ball it has been a coalition comprised of several diverse groups. I have been and will continue to educate Sportsmen so that they can refute claims such as yours. You see, I don't just sit around and complain on this site or any other. I have been working to ensure that Wyoming has the ability to manage wolves as they see fit. King Edward may wish to dictate and mandate that wolves be allowed to roam throughout all of Wyoming but I intend to do everything I can to thwart his attempts to further that agenda.
And just for the record, it isn't the w-word you need to be careful of it is the p-word.
S
skyland
Guest
For all you wolf huggers try having this in your backyard.........
How big is a wolf's paw?
Dogs killed by wolves:
http://www.cowboysandcattlecountry.0catch.com/wolfattackdog.htm
Dog with family children before being killed by wolves:
After:
Sally's granddaughter, before being killed by wolves:
After:
Lamb killed by wolf:
Calf killed by wolves:
Colt (young horse) killed by wolves:
Gravesite for all three dogs:
Horse killed by wolves:
Article about 24-year-old woman killed by 5 grey wolves: http://www.wolfpark.org/Articles/Wyman.html
This URL contains graphic photos of "wolf meals" and "wolf fun," also known as "sport killing:" http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/2004/articles11/my_official_Oregon_wolf.htm
How big is a wolf's paw?
Dogs killed by wolves:
http://www.cowboysandcattlecountry.0catch.com/wolfattackdog.htm
Dog with family children before being killed by wolves:
After:
Sally's granddaughter, before being killed by wolves:
After:
Lamb killed by wolf:
Calf killed by wolves:
Colt (young horse) killed by wolves:
Gravesite for all three dogs:
Horse killed by wolves:
Article about 24-year-old woman killed by 5 grey wolves: http://www.wolfpark.org/Articles/Wyman.html
This URL contains graphic photos of "wolf meals" and "wolf fun," also known as "sport killing:" http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/2004/articles11/my_official_Oregon_wolf.htm
I can't believe it took this long to get someone to send something like this. Now all we need to do is have all pitbulls killed and any other neighbors dog that looks like it might growl at someone. These articles have didly to do with wolves released in the Park. Sure wolves are going to kill things they shouldn't but so do vehicles, dogs that aren't tied up, horny bull moose, etc. Should we kill and destroy all of those as well? And someone might even be missing a 3 year old child that was left unattended for hours on end in the middle of the wilderness area by some negligent parent. The thread is called, wolves and elk don't mix. I can post a picture of a mule that killed a mountain lion if you are that desperate.
D
dabassmasta
Guest
wolves need to be kept in check and when the pack grows and takes too many deer and elk, then it's time to regulate. Now for the subject of "wolves and elk don't mix", what a @#$%@#% stupid comment. Did wolves and elk not coexist before the white man came over here? What's next, man and water don't mix because man poisons the water? That is even dumber than BC's wannabe comments.
eelgrass
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 31,422
Personally, I have read Aldo Leopold, and I think he would approve of modern day wildlife management methods, and the technological advances made, in the face of an ever growing human population. What other choice is there?
He would understand that to a large extent man has replaced the wolf as the dominant prey species. But one could argue the point forever........
It's neither here nor there now! We've got wolves and they will continue to expand into the forseeable future. Regardless of how cruel or inhumane it is to the wolf!
Congratulations! I only hope that we all learn from our mistakes!
Steve
He would understand that to a large extent man has replaced the wolf as the dominant prey species. But one could argue the point forever........
It's neither here nor there now! We've got wolves and they will continue to expand into the forseeable future. Regardless of how cruel or inhumane it is to the wolf!
Congratulations! I only hope that we all learn from our mistakes!
Steve
shortmag
Active Member
- Messages
- 216
Gettin' sick of the wolf BS which seems to be prevalent on this site. I live near an idaho unit with wolves (and a newly documented pack) and a cow elk hunt was added for implementation this fall. If the wolves are so bad how come we will be able to harvest cows in a unit previously a general season antlered hunt? It seems the wolves may have changed elk behavior but are not impacting populations. Why all the wolf bashing? Is it real or just something to complain about or rationalize not killing a bull every year? Our F+G has objectives to meet and the elk population exceeds the objectives. This doesn't seem to track with the other enteries on this site. Please one of you whiners clue me in.
R
Rock
Guest
Smokestick
You say what could pose a greater threat to hunting than the wolves. I say its the man that wants to play god. So tell me smokestick have you yourself seen a wolve kill just to kill or did you read about it in a book. I think the only thing I got backwards is that wolves did not stop me from going hunting last year it was all 5 states that would not give me a TAG!
Rock
You say what could pose a greater threat to hunting than the wolves. I say its the man that wants to play god. So tell me smokestick have you yourself seen a wolve kill just to kill or did you read about it in a book. I think the only thing I got backwards is that wolves did not stop me from going hunting last year it was all 5 states that would not give me a TAG!
Rock
