Stanbury Bighorns dying of old age.

[ridgetops]

I'd like to start this post off by stating that I'm very disappointed that the DWR has recommended only 3 tags again this year on the Stansbury unit.
Here's some facts:
In 2010, I was the first one to ever hunt Bighorns on the Stanburys, along with the expo tag holder.
At the time the biologist told me that the three oldest rams on the unit were (1) nine yr. old and (2) eight yr. olds.
I ended up killing one of the eight year olds, which became the new state record.
Nobody has killed that nine year old to date.
The biologist also said that there were at least 30 rams in the 5 to 7 year old range in 2010.
I personally saw at least that many during my hunt.
Most sheep will live to about 12-15 years.
Right now the Stansburys has at least 30 rams that are over ten years old.
With the big fire of 2009 that burned off around 50 thousand acres and then another one in 2013 that burned another 40 k, the sheep have moved and expanded their range. Which I'm sure is now hard to keep counts on the herd.
Another problem is that several of the hunters in the last couple years have shot very young rams, which would give the appearance that there are not very many older rams.
Which is not true.
I will be emailing the local Biologist, RAC and Wildlife board members to see if we can at least have (4) tags this year to let at least one other max point holder through the system and then at least (6) tags next year. Especially when the Newfoundland unit is getting (10) tags right now.
If more tags are not given out real soon, several rams will be dying of old age.
That's a fact.




There's always next year

 

[Zeke]

I've said it many times, The damn F&G has a propensity to give an odd number of tags which they do with such regularity that it must reflect some grudge against max points holders.
This is especially true when there's a unit, like you described, which could easily support 2 or 3X the current tags.

While it's encouraging to hear your report, it's disappointing that so many rams will be lost and never hunted.

Sometimes I have to just shake my head and wonder why.
Zeke

 

[littlebighorn]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-15 AT 12:57PM (MST)[p]Ridgetops,
I too am perplexed about the tag allocations, given the number of rams we saw on your hunt and subsequent trips to the unit. I believe you probably know that mountain as well as anyone, given the amount of time you spend out there. My digging indicates that the DWR uses a formulas based off their last flight data to make tag recommendations, but sometimes that doesn't represent what is really there. I think it is important for you to share your thoughts with the RAC and even bend the ear of the state sheep biologist to perhaps sway their thinking. It wouldn't hurt to also have others including MM followers to also get involved in writing emails, etc. I am glad to add my own. What region is that unit in?

Part of the problem also lies with hunters, who don't understand how important it is with sheep to go after the old rams. Sheep tags are so rare that leaving old rams to die doesn't make any sense. Many, if not most inexperienced bighorn sheep hunters seem to assume that the longer the horn the better the trophy, regardless of mass or age. Statistics from other states show that same trend in some sheep units.
I've plead with more than one such hunter to back off of lamb tipped rams in favor of broomed mass.
Anyway, good post Koby.
Hopefully others will get involved. I'll try to do my part.

 

[littlebighorn]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-15 AT 09:27PM (MST)[p]Here are the Central RAC Members. It appears the Stansburys is in this region. I am currently writing an email to each member. If ?ou feel so inclined, getting involved is the only way things change.
CENTRAL REGION

Gary Nielson, Chair
[email protected]
220 South 200 West
Nephi, Utah 84648
?Sportsmen

Richard Hansen, Vice Chair
[email protected]
45 East 600 North
Nephi, Utah 84648
?At-large

Matt Clark
[email protected]
968 Fir Ave
Provo, Utah 84604
?Sportsmen

Timothy Fehr
[email protected]
2596 Eagle Cove Drive
Park City, Utah 84060
?At-large

Larry Fitzgerald
PO Box 250
Eureka, Utah 84628
?Agricultural

Sarah Flinders
[email protected]
Forest Service
2037 S. Blue Grouse Circle
Springville, Utah 84663
?Forest Service

Michael Gates
[email protected]
2370 South 2300 West
Salt Lake, Utah 84119
?BLM

Karl Hirst
[email protected]
1103 East 720 North
Orem, Utah 84097
?Sportsmen

George Holmes
Wasatch County
155 S 2100 E
Heber City
Ut 84032
?Agricultural

Kristofer Marble
[email protected]
3809 Buchanan Street
Cedar Valley, Utah 84013
?At-large

Greg McPhie
[email protected]
690 S 4800 East
Heber City, Utah 84032
?Elected official

Danny Potts
[email protected]
415 South 1000 West
Salt Lake City, Utah 84104
?Non-consumptive

Christine Schmitz
[email protected]
561 East 3200 North
North Ogden, Utah 84414
?Non-consumptive

Jacob Steele
[email protected]
Confederated Tribes of the Goshute Reservation (CTGR)
HC 61 Box 6104
Ibapah, Utah 84034
?Native American

Here is an email I threw together. Ridgetops expresses it even better than I do. Feel free to use any part that might help relay your feelings.

Dear RAC Member,
I am writing regarding a concern that the proposed Stansbury Bighorn sheep permit numbers have not increased beyond 3 permits. I was able to accompany both tag holders in 2010 when that unit first opened. During that hunt we saw dozens of 5-6 year old rams that still seem to be roaming that mountain along with older and younger rams that are now mature and pushing their limited life span. But taking only 3 (if every ram taken is mature) would still leave many Rams to die of old age.
I know how precious a Rocky Mt Bighorn ram is to many hunters and it is sad to think that hundreds of Utahns who really want that once in a lifetime opportunity to hunt sheep will never be able to do so because tags are so sparingly allocated.
I have been on that mountain every year since that initial hunt and my observations are that there are still dozens of mature rams there, many of which will never be harvested given the present tag limit.
Please consider at least adding one more tag.
Sincerely,

 

[deerslayer88]

Heck driving to bendover a couple months ago me and the wife spotted 8 rams from the road that were all over 7 years old.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams

 

[billythekid]

post a pic of your state record

 

[heartshot]

billythekid,

His hunt was superbly documented in the 2010 Hunt Adventure Challenge at this link:

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID50/22.html#.VRrigv4cS2w

 

[Zeke]

Yep! There's that "sick" ram again.
Sweet OLD trophy ram.

LBH hit the nail on the head... much of the info the biologists use comes from hunters and their bagged game. If they're killing young rams, the F&G thinks there are not enough older-class rams to support more tags.

The other bad issue of killing a young ram is the fact that the hunter actually killed 2 rams, the one he shot and the old ram he should have shot which will die of old age.

Zeke

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

Hey ridgetops,
I wonder if the tag numbers have anything to do with plans to transplant sheep.
If they are trying to build the herd to a certain size, then plan to move a large number of sheep to new areas.
That may be a reason why the tag numbers don't jump up.

Just guessing.

I also am not sure if giving those tags out would mean the mature rams get killed.
Like so many have said, if the extra tag goes to a guy who wants to shoot a young ram, what good did the extra tag do?

Kind of a hard subject.

Good post though.
Its a subject that might at least bring some consideration to tag holders.
Maybe convince them to shoot an older ram.

Still sad to see them die of old age, so many guys waiting a lifetime to get the chance to hunt one.

So, I have sent you pics in the past. Not sure when the last time I sent you stuff was.
But, maybe a plan would be to send the massive accumulation of pics to the DWR to help them more accurately get numbers on mature rams.

I had a 10 year old ram get passed by three different hunters last year.
All shot younger rams.
I am not one to judge. The tags were not mine to decide.

I just wonder if more tags means the mature rams don't die on the mountain.

I would have to trust you on the number of sheep over 10, but if its 30 rams, it sure seems like another tag to two over the next couple years would not hurt.

 

[greatwestern]

Glad to see you guys advocating for age class harvest here...but as BT points out, more permits will certainly not guarantee that those old rams will be killed by hunters...some guys just aren't very sheep savvy, and its not necessarily any fault of theirs, in general terms.

Does UT do competent surveys? Aerial and Ground? I know a couple of my friends here subscribe to SFW, whom I believe receives sheep allocations to sell at expo? If so, why not request that a portion of funds raised be designated to surveys if the state does not do them already...or perhaps in addition to?

Forgive me if I am asking redundant questions, I don't know very much about Utah's sheep program.

Ridgetops, always great to see your big Blackhorns...I will never forget the great video you guys took in the aftermath of the shot, with the sheep charging down the escarpments and chimneys...have seen it live many times myself, and your footage captures how amazingly athlethic these animals are when they are compelled to go for it, for whatever reason

Great topic,

Cheers'

Adam

 

[littlebighorn]

As always, GW makes a good point.
Perhaps even more important than a tag increase might be a required "Sheep Orientation Meeting" for all tag holders. It would help to try to educate all sheep hunters on the need to harvest older rams. Years ago there was an age requirement on Utah sheep, and an orientation course, but that went out the window.
It would not be hard to instigate a required online sheep age orientation course (kind of like the billy/nanny course for goats) before applying for a sheep tag. That would certainly at least bring the topic to the table for sheep hopefuls. Spot on Adam.

 

[Zeke]

Yes LBH and GW, that's a great idea! Let's bring back the mandatory orientation class!

Down through the years, I've attended many classes in a couple different States and they're educational and important in content. If nothing else, the class could cover some aging techniques and the biological reason for targeting the older rams.

Zeke

 

[ridgetops]

Thanks for the email addresses Rick. I sent a message to each one of them.
Sorry for the delayed response but I've been out of town.
Thanks for all the comments.
It may be a risk that more hunters may end up killing more younger rams but would just like to see more people have the awesome opportunity that I was able to have.
I think it's worth the risk.


There's always next year

 

[Zeke]

You're right ridgetops. There's always that risk but I think it could be successfully mitigated with some comprehensive education.

Good luck to all you guys who will get to hunt sheep this year. We don't know who they are yet but Christmas is coming!
Zeke

 

[greatwestern]

You're absolutely correct Z, education is key here.

Since our dear ol' Game and Fish Dept. refuses to implement an orientation course for those successful in drawing bighorn permits, we at NMWSF have chosen to send out a mailed "crash course" to permit holders on the subject of selecting mature rams for harvest.

Not nearly as good as a mandatory orientation seminar, but perhaps it will help toward the goal of killing proper rams for those who decide to hunt unguided.

Thanks again for bringing this up guys, awareness goes a long way toward further learning

 

[DW]

It's easy for me to suggest this because it will take no effort on my part. I have a pile of colorado sheep points and 1 day I will draw, and I'm smart enough to realize u guys have way more knowledge and skill at aging sheep than someone like me. Why don't u guys put a little photo tutorial together on another thread to educate guys like me, and I'm sure plenty others, that will someday draw? Realize I'm suggesting this in a sincere way and not a condescending way as I think it will do alot of good. Thanks fellas.

 

[Zeke]

That's a great idea DW.
I'll get some pics together and either start a thread or contribute to someone else's thread. (I changed computers and don't have any pics on this one yet but I can fix that)
I just like looking at sheep pics and we should/could end up with several close-ups of horns and I know GWestern and others have tons of field pics to share.
I started a sheep pics thread a while ago but it didn't have posted ages on most of the pics so this could be totally new and different.
Remember, aging a ram based on horn confirmation and/or rings is part art and science.
Zeke

 

[treedagain]

Zeke. it could be like the info given to Lion hunters to help better manage the Tom vs. female ID issues. i know when i drew my tag i studied every pic of rams with known age and score i could find and when it was all said and done i knew the age and score of my ram (within a point) before i pulled the trigger.

How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait

 

[Zeke]

Not to Brown-nose you, Treedagain, but you could hardly think of yourself as average! I had no doubt, long before you hunted that ram, that you'd do everything in your power to become educated.

Most, or many guys, would not go to the trouble unless it was packaged and handed to them. That's why all of us, you included, think a MANDATORY class is the BEST way to go. Best for the hunter, best for the resource!

Zeke

 

[DW]

Here's my only contributing photo to the new thread as its the only sheep pic I have on my phone. I know they're young but how young? 3,4...6?

 

[Trammer]

I am not disagreeing with this post, it is a good one but should be fact checked. First Rams do night normally live to be 12-15 years old, they typically rut kill between 8 1/2 and 11 1/2. The average age at death, as well as highest probability of death comes at 10 years old.( I can show you the charts from the studys if you wish) That is one reason I coined the term Class 5 Ram. Everyone else uses 4 classifications for Rams Class 1 being a Ram in its first Quarter or 2 1/2 years of life...a Class 4 being 7.5 plus years old. So when a Ram reaches 10 1/2 or 11 years old I refer to it as a class 5 Ram because it has outlived its natural life expectancy. I always hunt sheep with the goal of maintaining a Class 5 average or NO IMPACT harvest. Sheep hunting, when done this way, leaves the unit the same or better than you found it.It maximizes the productivity or production of the unit as well as the size and age of the Rams taken. Every one wins.

The other problem I have with the post is. I am not sure how relevant your experience from 2010 is. I am sorry if that sounds rude. It is not intended to be. Its just that sheep numbers do swing wildly especially if the Lions are into them.

Another question your post raises; my experience is that Utah generally overhunts its Rocky and Calis. You will be hard pressed to find a single 10 year old Ram in the Newfoundland Mountains or in Range Creek/Nine Mile.The DWR overharvests in those units to be certain. So help me get my brain around why the DWR would drastically under-harvest on Stansburry? I hate to answer my own question because a gaggle of buffoons is what they are and that may be the answer.

As for influencing the age of the rams taken I have always proposed a Fee be assessed for sub-adult Rams and similarly a bonus like a refund of your permit fee could be given for Rams 9 1/2 years old or better and even a Bonus paid out like $1000. if your Ram is Class 5. Wouldnt it be great if your ONL hunt were free and the State even paid you...if you killed the right ram?

 

[ridgetops]

Trammer, I should have done my research better. Your right, rams do live on average around that 9-12 year range. I'm guessing I was being overly optimistic. Knowing that they don't live much past 10 is more depressing than ever. I have spent a lot of time on that mountain looking at sheep since 2010 and have been out during the hunts with many of the other hunter since then. I was out on opening day last fall and saw several class 3 and 4 rams.

Here's what was said at the Central RAC meeting last night when questioned about the low tag numbers.
Quote:
The biologist said when they flew 2 years ago they counted 10 class 3 and class 4 rams. Six have now been harvested since then and he knows of another 8 year old that died. He said they have had a "little disease issue" and they didn't get to fly this year because of weather so until they fly next year he wanted to stay conservative on tag numbers.

That's so wrong but it looks like the Stansburys will stick with 3 tags this year.
I need to backpedal a little on my guessing of the number of mature rams over 10. I'm sure my estimates were a little high.
But I'm willing to bet my house that there are over 30 rams over the age of 7, which is considered a trophy and should be hunted.
Just because the DWR can't find many of the mature rams during (1) fly over, doesn't mean that they are not there.

 

[ridgetops]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-15 AT 07:19AM (MST)[p]In the picture above:
I would think the ram in the middle is a 3 year old and the other two are 4s.

There's always next year

 

[Zeke]

If they wander out past that white stripe, they aren't going to get any older either!
Zeke

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-15 AT 05:52PM (MST)[p]Trammer, I have a question for you.

Understand, this is not to start an argument.
I am simply trying to understand your position.

You stated "You will be hard pressed to find a single 10 year old Ram in the Newfoundland Mountains or in Range Creek/Nine Mile."

I found this a bit of an interesting statement.
I am curious as to why you feel this.

I understand that this data is from the hunt before last, but looking at the DWR harvest data from 2013 from the newfoundlands, the DWR says they killed?..
1 ram at age 11.5
4 rams at age 10.5
1 ram at age 9.5
2 rams at age 8.5
And 2 rams at 7.5

looking at the data from 2012
There was 1 10.5 and a couple 9.5 ect.

I have not seen the data from 2014, but I went on a couple of those hunts myself and saw many of the sheep that were killed.

I also have spent a lot of time out there.
I have already been out to the Newfoundlands several times this year.
I am no sheep expert, and no doubt, I do not have your experience or skill.
That is why I am trying to understand your perspective. For my own eduction.

Do you believe that the DWR ages the sheep incorrectly?

I personally believe that I could put you on several rams at 10 years of age, on the newfoundlands.
But this may be my ignorance. Perhaps I am aging sheep poorly.

I am willing to be wrong.
I would like to be smart enough, and experienced enough to be accurate.
For now, I just try to gain understanding.

I value your opinions. I understand you have an intense passion.
But, I am finding myself conflicted with the data.

Ridgetops, I also admire your passion for sheep.
Good on you for caring enough to make the post. Also, impressive putting your mouth where your money is, going to the RAC meetings, asking the questions. Trying to understand all sides of the situation.
We need more fellas like you out there.
You are welcome in my camp any day.

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-15 AT 08:08PM (MST)[p]Double post. Oooops.

But, I will use this space to ask a question.

I will state that I do not know that answer.
I have a legitimate desire to know. I go back and forth on this ram.
In the times that I have watched him, I have found it hard to come up with a consistent guess.

Trammer, if you would do me the honors of making your best guess, I would appreciate it.

The photos are not the best, but I tried to provide a right left and rear view for accuracy purposes.

It may be the body size thats throwing me for a loop.

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

I realized after posting that the photo was a bit small in the frame.
So, I am going to repost a larger rear image.

Also, ridgetops, I apologize, my reply came in above yours, even though I posted it after your post.
It looks kind of funny because you go "middle and the other two" and there are three images in that post.
Just looks kind of funny.

 

[Trammer]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-15 AT 08:58PM (MST)[p]Bighorn Tracks, thank you for the great and accurate data. In 2013 Jimmy Bawden, Ken Murdock, myself and Jeremy Harness guided the famous Rick Warren to the 11.5 year old ram. It was quite a challenge as we were batting clean up, as all the hunters had tagged out and left the unit before we got there. I understand that the other 10.5 year old rams were taken on the opening weekend because many of the hunters camped and prescouted for days or week before the season opened. With the 8 and 9 year olds being creamed off next; mid hunt. Generally the 2 guys holding out till the end, that left just before we got there, took the 7.5 year olds. Now with the unit to ourselves we did kill the oldest ram on the unit: The 11.5 year old pictured below. We turned a friend of mine (who was guiding a hunter in 2014) on to our 2nd choice ram from 2013 and I understand that it became the #1 ram from 2014 (the second pic I will post) Lets see what the stats look like from 2014: When the turtles at the DWR get around to doing them I predict 1 ten year old 1 9 year old and everything else 8.5 or younger...

 

[Trammer]

I would post some pics but cant get the uploader to work. Sorry

 

[sticksender]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-15 AT 09:11AM (MST)[p]BIGHORNtracks, I can take a stab at it. Harder to guess without a good side view, but if you post one it would help. Edited this post for content and pic deleted.

 

[sticksender]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-15 AT 09:07PM (MST)[p]duplicate

 

[sticksender]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-15 AT 09:08PM (MST)[p]duplicate

 

[sticksender]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-15 AT 09:08PM (MST)[p]duplicate

 

[sticksender]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-15 AT 09:07PM (MST)[p]duplicate

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

Sticksender, I am going to give you a slightly better side view to work with.
I blew it up to a more viewable size.

The photo is still not a very good photo. Long distance, poor light.
But it may be the view you were looking for.

Trammer, thanks for trying. I am looking forward to your reply.

 

[sticksender]

BIGHORNtracks, ok thanks yes the side view picture helps a bunch.

So based on the side view you just posted, I'd say the ram was 7.5 years old.

 

[sticksender]

I'll post a couple more pics of young rams that may be of interest when it comes to aging. Here's a picture I took of a yearling ram (almost 1.5 yrs old). This was in October so he still has a little way to go before his growth ring sets. You can see a couple lambs in the background and some ewes. The lamb tips on bighorns in the lower rockies should grow to about 3-4 inches by winter. Then by the next winter, after his first full year, the horn lengths on a ram will have grown to maybe 8-12 inches.

Again this pic I took in early October so this 1.5 yr-old was not quite done growing yet for the year.

 

[sticksender]

This is a 2.5 year-old ram. This pic I took in early October, so once again, this ram will grow a little more length before he stalls out for the winter and his 2.5 growth ring sets up and darkens along the horn base.

 

[sticksender]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-15 AT 09:33AM (MST)[p]As you know, for each successive year thereafter, the growth ring spacing gets progressively closer together. Looking for that regressing pattern helps in picking out any false rings and to age the ram correctly.

Here's a pic I took in late Dec of a 3.5 yr old ram. You can see the dark growth ring forming at his horn base.

 

[SHEDYGAGA]

7.5? Really?
I don't know about that. How old do you think this ram is?

I know a bit about this ram. I know the year he got his collar, and his age at the time of the collaring.
He is still alive, and this photo was taken nearly a year ago.
I would be interested to see what you believe his age to be.
If he is ever killed, I would be looking to see where the division of wildlife put his age.
This post is becoming interesting.

 

[DW]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-15 AT 09:54AM (MST)[p]Keep em comin men! Turnin into a good thread! Shedyagaga I'm guessin 9.5 at the time of the pic? Bighorntracks ram, I'd say 8.5? Thanx for postin the pics men!

 

[sticksender]

DW- I'll see what other useful aging pics I might have. Here's a dead 5-1/2 year old ram killed in mid-Dec.

Notice how at each true growth ring, the horn makes a very slight angular "turn". Especially when looking at the inside surface of the horn curve. This can help in discerning the true growth rings from false rings.

 

[DW]

Thanx sticksender. I got the "false ring" from 1 of the previous pics, what causes a "false ring"?

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

Sticksender, thats kind of cool.
This ram is dead.
It died the same year this photo was taken.

The DWR got a hold of it and aged it at 6.5 years old.

I got a kick out of how similar it is to your photo.
Obviously, you don't see the sharp change in angles on my photo, like you do in your photo.

You are counting that first ring at 2.5 years.
I wonder if they are counting it at 3.5 years.

Glad you posted that pic. Good similarity.

I am going to have to get my hands on some photos of sheep that are dead and the age assigned to them and post them here.
I know they find a few dead sheep heads on Antelope island each year.
The DWR gets them, plugs them and returns them.
I know where a couple are.

It would be interesting to get a nice, close up photo posted and see if the age guesses are the same as what the DWR said they were.

 

[SHEDYGAGA]

6 and a half year old ram sectioned. Almost 7 when he died.

 

[sticksender]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-15 AT 03:36PM (MST)[p]Here's another example of a 2-1/2 y-o ram, this one from southern Colorado. This pic I took in late Dec, when he was about done with his 2nd full year of horn growth. Interesting to note also, because he still has almost his full 3-4 inches of original lamb tips with very little broomed off, he's actually close to being a legal ram under CO's 1/2 curl rule, yet he's only 2.5 years old.

 

[sticksender]

DW- The regular dark growth rings that go all the way around the horn represent each year's period of dormancy in the winter. The false rings are anomalies that happen in the midst of a normal horn growth season that could occur for various different reasons. They usually are not as dark and often don't go all the way around the horn.

 

[Trammer]

I would say the oldest ram that anyone has posted is the collared ram. It is very had to see the rings. My guess would be 11. Is he a Newfy Ram? The best ram pictured is the one with 3 photos in 1. I think if those photos were taken during 2013, I think, that it is Rick Warrens ram so he is dead. What year were those pics taken and is it a Newfy ram?

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

Trammer, I took those pics at the end of 2014. (speaking of the ram with the three pics in one) Just a couple months ago.
As far as I know, he is still alive, but I have not seen him in 2015. I wouldn't have though, since I have not spent any time in the areas he typically inhabits.
Yes, it is a Newfoundland ram.
He is usually a ram that you have to do a bit of hiking to find.

My last several trips out there have been spent looking for an older ram that I call 8ball.
Cant find him. I think he may have died of old age. But I will keep looking for him. There is a lot of country out there that he could be hiding in. Very difficult to travel through.

My next trip out, I will be setting two trail cams in the area of the ram in the photo.
See if I can keep tabs on him through the summer.

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

A couple more Newfoundland rams that made it through the hunting season.
This ram is one that I have struggled to age.
He is easy to relocate. His nose can be spotted from a mile away.
He has false annuli ( I believe) that makes it hard to tell how old he is.

This ram I believe to be an 8 year old ( Dec 2014) but could be one older.
Again some false annuli up high.

Trammer, I am sure you have seen this photo.
It a ram that was harvested this year. 2014.
I called him Willy wonka due to the two red ear tags he wore. The tags had matching white W's on them. I watched him a week before the hunt. He was killed on the opener.

Not 100% sure, but I believe he was aged by the DWR at 9.5 years old.

 

[Trammer]

BigHorn Tracks, you do have pics of what are the best rams on the Newfys. Here is my point. With 10 permits on the Newfys do you think there are 10, 10 year old plus rams for the hunters to take?

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

I see your point there Trammer.
My answer would be no. In all the time I have spent out there, I would not say that there are 10 rams over 9 years old. But there are some.
But, I am not that good at judging age. Also, I find new rams every time I go out there.

I have heard people say that you can see every sheep on the mountain in one weekend.
But I don't believe that at all. I still come over a ridge and find a new ram that I have not seen before.

I actually do believe you. I don't think that there are lots of old rams.
But, I have not seen that guys are concerned with shooting old rams.

I know a guy who has a lot of sheep points. Been putting in for years and years.
His attitude is "I would like to get a good ram, but I am not going to get skunked. I will kill whatever I find."

I have been trying to talk him out of that idea for years now.
But he has not ever scouted sheep. Has no idea where to find them, and no idea how to judge them.

Not that I do wither. Thats not a criticism of him.
I am just saying that one day, he will draw that tag. Completely unprepared. Then be in panic mode for a couple months trying to get ready for a sheep hunt.
Trying to tell that guy to only harvest a 10+ year old ram is going to be like beating your head against a wall.

I like your thinking. At least the idea of NO IMPACT hunting.
Imagine what a perfect world it would be if mule deer and elk hunters did the same. There would be no need for limited entry units.

I guess that what I see is that even if there were 10 rams, over the age of 10 years, how do you get the guys to hunt those rams vs the 7 and 8 year old rams?

Like you said. That ram that I posted the pic of, he is much bigger than 7 of the 10 rams that were killed out there this year.

Ridgtops post totally got hijacked. So, lets bring it back around to his point.

Lets say the DWR cuts the newfoundland tags to 3, like the stansburrys.

In one year, 7 rams that would have died get to live longer.
That could make a significant impact on hunters two years down the road.
At least on the age of the rams available for them to choose from.
But they still have choice. And from what I have seen, thats a big hurdle.

Good talk. I am enjoying this.
Hopefully folks who draw tags this year will get some important ideas from this discussion.

 

[ridgetops]

>BigHorn Tracks, you do have pics
>of what are the best
>rams on the Newfys. Here
>is my point. With 10
>permits on the Newfys do
>you think there are 10,
>10 year old plus rams
>for the hunters to take?
>

This is the point I'm trying to make. Does there need to be a 10+ year old ram for every tag holder on any unit?
I saw No.
Why risk the chance that only half of those older rams will get killed by hunters and the others will die of natural causes.
If your looking at score, if that's your kind of thing.
Most rams will not increase in score much past 8 1/2 years anyway.
I believe there should be at least 10 rams on the Newfoundlands the are over 8 1/2 years old, which I'm sure there are.

There's always next year

 

[BIGHORNtracks]

Hey ridgetops, have you seen the KING TUT ram since the hunt?
I know the hunter from Kaysville had photos of him that were taken in August or September.
Great skyline pics of him.
I know he was hoping to see him during the hunt, but I never met up with him after the opening week.
I don't know what ram he ended up killing.
I don't believe photos of KING TUT should be on the internet, so check your pms.
I have been looking for him. But he is a very elusive ram.

 

[SHEDYGAGA]

If you are going to count age rings for every sheep to determine its worthiness to kill, what do you do when you encounter a ram like this?

Good luck counting the rings on that guy. I have photographed him many times.
I have been inside of 50 yards distance to him. The rings are so slight, that counting them is nearly impossible. A what point do you determine a mature ram?
I have no idea how old this ram is. I would bet that most guys would just shoot him.

 

[ridgetops]

Bighorn, I sent you a PM.


There's always next year

 

[smitho]

Hey guys this is a really interesting and educational thread. Seems to be alot of knowledge and experience here. One question i had that might be a little off topic is about the accuracy of the aging being done when rams are checked in after harvest. Now im from CO but ive been present when several rams were checked and i did not feel the CPW employees checking these rams were very knowledgable at all. A couple times the ladies from the front desk checked in the harvests and didnt seem to know what they were doing. Since then i kind of take the information provided online with a grain of salt.

 

[smitho]

Hey guys this is a really interesting and educational thread. Seems to be alot of knowledge and experience here. One question i had that might be a little off topic is about the accuracy of the aging being done when rams are checked in after harvest. Now im from CO but ive been present when several rams were checked and i did not feel the CPW employees checking these rams were very knowledgable at all. A couple times the ladies from the front desk checked in the harvests and didnt seem to know what they were doing. Since then i kind of take the information provided online with a grain of salt.

 

[smitho]

Hey guys this is a really interesting and educational thread. Seems to be alot of knowledge and experience here. One question i had that might be a little off topic is about the accuracy of the aging being done when rams are checked in after harvest. Now im from CO but ive been present when several rams were checked and i did not feel the CPW employees checking these rams were very knowledgable at all. A couple times the ladies from the front desk checked in the harvests and didnt seem to know what they were doing. Since then i kind of take the information provided online with a grain of salt.

 

[smitho]

Hey guys this is a really interesting and educational thread. Seems to be alot of knowledge and experience here. One question i had that might be a little off topic is about the accuracy of the aging being done when rams are checked in after harvest. Now im from CO but ive been present when several rams were checked and i did not feel the CPW employees checking these rams were very knowledgable at all. A couple times the ladies from the front desk checked in the harvests and didnt seem to know what they were doing. Since then i kind of take the information provided online with a grain of salt.

 

[ridgetops]

I know what you mean.
When I took my ram in, they first aged it at 6 1/2. I convinced him to recount those rings and he crossed out the 6 1/2 and wrote 7 1/2. I counted at least nine rings. So he crossed out 7 1/2 and wrote 8 1/2 for the final record/guess. That really happened.

There's always next year

 

[smitho]

Sorry for the quadruple post. Wish I could say it makes me feel better that it wasn't just me. Like I said , just gotta take those stats with a grain of salt

 

[TMas]

Agreed here. The California ram I killed was aged by the dwr at 9 1/2...then he changed it to 10 1/2 after he recounted for the third time. A week or two later I got information back from the biologist on the ear tag...he was 12 1/2 and scored 175 5/8. Growth rings can be very misleading, especially on older rams.

 

[Zeke]

Even the "experts" can't always get it right even with the horns sitting in their lap! I've seen that first-hand too.
If anyone says its always cut-and-dried, they haven't tried to age very many.
Zeke

 

[littlebighorn]

+1 on it not being an exact science and difficult at times.

Also, given the welfare wages the DWR workers are making and the high turn over, it's no wonder that there are sometimes less than experienced people in their offices to do the task. The officer that measured my ram is a former B&C scorer, and he was within a few 8ths of my official score. He was also good on the age.

My experience is it is much easier to tell on young rams than on old ones with stacked annuli.

 

[ridgetops]

Tmas,
that means your ram in that 2007 trail cam picture was 7 at that time. He was a pretty good looking ram then. I think most hunters would have taken him then, if given the chance.


There's always next year

 

[DW]

11.5?

 

[sticksender]

I'd say you're correct on the age. Do you have any measurements on that whopper?

 

[DW]

X

 

[Trammer]

I really do agree with Utah DWR policy on number of tags given. I understand that they take the number of class 4 rams sighted (they have to use that number because you cant tell an 8 year old from a 12 year old in the helicopter) and then run it threw a sightablity
model and every unit should or does have a a sightablity model. Rams in the beaverdam with relatively open country, Mohave Desert habitat or the Newfys too. Sheep cant hide from the copter there. So the model may be 90% for some units or 50% for other units Like the North San Juan: its a safe bet what ever is seen in the north san juan can be safely doubled.
So in the Newfys if 9 class 4 rams are seen on the survey it goes to figure there are 10 in the unit and 1 was missed. Tag numbers cannot or should not exceed the number of class four rams seen on the survey as extrapolated by the sightablity model. Realizing of coarse that all the rams will be a year older by next years hunt.

The ##### I have is that UDWR does not follow their own policy and deviate from it often in units like NEWFYS and Range creek. It really is the same way the dorks at DWR have systematically destroyed many of our elk hunting units as well. Why manage for 5 year old bulls? Ever? Why cant you let the elk or the rams grow up before we shoot them?

 

[Homer]

...name a desert sheep unit that doesn't have most rams dying of old age??....

 

[DW]

I don't sticksender, don't know anything about it.

 

[Sandbrew]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-30-15 AT 04:59PM (MST)[p]I believe the last ram pictured is a pick up from an unhunted area in Colorado 195-198 B&C if I'm not mistaken. I have a pictures of that ram alive and was lookingfor him when I had the Colorado tag in 2008. He was found dead sometime after that.

 

[DW]

Pics came off cdpw website so could be.

 

[Trammer]

I generally agree with you Homer. In some units, most rams are dying of old age, possibly even most units. But, the dying of old age comes largely from the failure of sheep hunters and guides more than it does from DWR policy or management. If the average hunter took a 9+ year old ram like the model calls for, that wouldnt be happening. If generally the 5,6,7,8 year olds werent taking the bullet and the 9,10,11,12 year olds were..the whole dynamic changes...Noone wants rams dying of old age and doesnt everyone want a 10 year old to be there for him when he draws a tag?....The only solution that I see to the problem is a financial fee/reward program like I mentioned before while still being legal to shoot any sheep.

 

[Dr_Hunter]

This is by far the best thread on MMs right now! Thanks guys. This was very educational and informative. I have 15 points now for Bighorns and have been putting in for the nine mile unit. I think I may reconsider now and put in for a CA bighorn... Still not sure though. I need to make some trips out to those units and check them out. Thanks for pics and tips.



I don't think there is any other quality
so essential to success of any kind as the
quality of perseverance. It overcomes
almost everything, even nature.
-John D. Rockefeller

 

[NVBighorn]

>I generally agree with you Homer.
>In some units, most rams
>are dying of old age,
>possibly even most units. But,
>the dying of old age
>comes largely from the failure
>of sheep hunters and guides
>more than it does from
>DWR policy or management. If
>the average hunter took a
>9+ year old ram like
>the model calls for, that
>wouldnt be happening. If generally
>the 5,6,7,8 year olds werent
>taking the bullet and the
>9,10,11,12 year olds were..the whole
>dynamic changes...Noone wants rams dying
>of old age and doesnt
>everyone want a 10 year
>old to be there for
>him when he draws a
>tag?....The only solution that I
>see to the problem is
>a financial fee/reward program like
>I mentioned before while still
>being legal to shoot any
>sheep.

What/whose model calls for the average hunter to kill 9 plus year old rams?


[font color="blue"]I don't make the soup,I just stir it.[/font]

 

[NVBighorn]

LAST EDITED ON May-13-15 AT 02:47PM (MST)[p]Sorry for the multiple posts. Damn technology

 

[NVBighorn]

LAST EDITED ON May-13-15 AT 02:46PM (MST)[p].

 

[Trammer]

Nevada Bighorns, Utahs model does. Because basically, permit numbers cannot exceed 10% of the rams in the unit and/or the number of class 4 rams in the unit. So ram numbers and class 4 ram numbers and permit numbers are all maximized when old rams are taken. Historically, when the model is working; like when the San Rafael, Potash for deserts or range creek and newfys for rockys were being managed successfully (before Utah F&G destroyed these units with bad policy..there was a time when your average San Rafael or range creek ram taken was a 10 year old. Utah sheep managers used to show off the graphs and charts with pride. Now since UFNAWS and UDWR have made bad decisions about sheep management and age class etc has plummeted the charts and graphs are rightfully hidden in shame in some obscure DWR file...if they are even being tracked at all...

 

[Homer]

hmmmmm....the only way to have hunters killing 10 year old rams regularly would be to increase the number that die of old age......hunters aren't that efficient....

 

[Trammer]

they should be that efficient.That kind of efficiency only requires the average hunter find 10 rams before shooting one. I normally see about 50 before deciding which one to shoot and then only after studying the film of several class 5 rams.Hunters who go out and shoot the first adult ram they see need to understand that they cause as much harm as a poacher. When their ram dies of old age and they shoot a future hunters ram....sheep conservation goes downhill really fast..I get that sometimes rams are taken with out knowing the age...

 

[GeorgeE]

Amazing thread...

'Ike'

Bowhunter...

 

[FlyFool]

Thanks For all the info guys. Trammer, just wondering if you were able to figure out the pic upload? Would like to see the pics of the Warren ram from 2013 if you can. Thanks.

 

[FlyFool]

Thanks For all the info guys. Trammer, just wondering if you were able to figure out the pic upload? Would like to see the pics of the Warren ram from 2013 if you can. Thanks.

 

[greatwestern]

LAST EDITED ON May-22-15 AT 06:20PM (MST)[p]Aging and judging scores of rams from photos is a fool's game...rams need to be scrutinized live from every possible aspect to determine true annuli and a score bracket

How big and of what age is this dude eh? He's got all the paradoxes going for him

**edit---I like the idea behind your Class V designation Trammer, though I wonder why haven't you suggested it to the 'officials' of wild sheep society who may have the influence to get such implemented as a relatively rare but definitely extant phenomena?

Maybe you have already, but right now, descriptions of "class 5 rams" are kind of an inside joke throughout sheep country...you know what I mean

 

[DW]

Agree greatwestern that's true of most big game, tough to nail it with pics alone. But I enjoy the game and believe it helps in the end. Thanx for the pics. I think your comments are trying to lead a person in a direction but I'm going to give it my best guess without being influenced by em. Gray faced, Roman nose, big blocky body, heavy, broomed horn.......11.5. Again I'm a rookie here lookin for veteran tutelage

 

[greatwestern]

LAST EDITED ON May-24-15 AT 03:48PM (MST)[p]Pretty good guess D, within a couple years anyway...I am more happy about your observation of the old dude's overall physical characteristics, in body, face, and horn. You're on the right track

Maybe it came off a bit short (was already pretty flustered with the fickle photo upload on here), but the point I was making is that while photos can be a great supplemental tool to utilize, they generally don't tell the true story...it always amazes me when interwebz experts want to make definitive claims, and even argue about an animal's stats based on a few photos. Its a joke, especially with sheep...way too many variables. I'd elaborate, but this thread has been derailed enough times already. But I will point out that annuli don't always graduate evenly; a bad year in a ram's life, due to some ailment or poor range conditions will obviously retard horn growth during that period, resulting in an "uneven" looking placement of that season's annulus along the length of the horn axis, which many automatically interpret as a being false ring.

**edit---and for whatever its worth here, the ram pictured above was growing his 14th year and measured 189 5/8 official.

 

[DW]

No, not short at all. Thought you were implying he looked older than he was when you eluded to him having characteristics of an older ram. Thanx again for the pics and the lesson.

 

[greatwestern]

Nah D, wasn't playing games with anyone...just wanted to provide a few relatively decent close range photos from a few aspects no

I'm still curious about Trammer's classifications though? Would this ram be a Class VI? What about the AB ram Val Geist documented over the years that finally died when he was 21? What class would that dude be in?

The "classification" system is pretty rudimentary and full of flaws, I think rams should be called by the year of their age itself

 

[littlebighorn]

The white face on that magnificent ram was the first sign of age I saw. Kind of like a white faced lab that is on it's last leg. Too bad all old farts don't white out!
I think annuli are Nature's gift with aging sheep. Perhaps more than any other animal they give us a decent INDICATION of age.
As far as classification goes, making an educated guess while flying over an animal is less than exact and "rudimentary". The experience of the rater, the distance of the animal, the cover and speed of the aircraft are all troublesome variables. It's far less precise than a trained eye behind an expensive glass. But I'm just glad we are trying our best to manage these beautiful creatures. Using a classification system is probably a step up from a guess.
I think the bottom line is that, as lucky tag holders, we need to do our part to maximize the hunting opportunity and health of every herd. If that means hiring a guide, getting experienced help, or spending extra time getting to know the unit sheep, then so be it. It's a small sacrifice to effort harvesting the seniors of the unit, like the picture GW posted.

 

[Zeke]

Great discussion!
I, too, like the idea of a class "V" ram. They've served their purpose and are ripe for the trophy hunter's wall, and when removed, have no effect on the herd health.
Zeke

 

[Trammer]

Greatwestern, the reason for the class V is because it serves as a forecast of future life expectancy. A class V ram has a much different life expectancy that a class 3 or 4. Life expectancy for a class 3 is almost 100%. The ram may fall to a lion but a 6 year old ram will not rut kill. A tapering off in life expectancy does occur in class 4 rams, especially 9 and 10 year olds. But when a ram exceeds 10 years old his chances of living through the next rut is 50/50. Its a coin toss, with a class V ram, if he will be alive a year from when you see him. Thats why, he should be shot, and not a younger ram. A 14 year old ram, is in the same class as an 11 year old. Mathematically both rams enjoy about the same probability of survival to the next rut.Both are walking dead...that is another reason why sheep hunting is different than hunting antlered game. Everyone knows that antlered game goes downhill in antler size later in life. I understand deer peak at 7 or 8 years old and elk at 8 or 9...sheep peak the day they croak..

 

[isayNUNYA]

While we are on the subject, antelope island rams are definitely dying of old age. While hunting deer on the island a few years ago counted 52 rams from one glassing point. I ended the day with a count of 71 rams. Counting 43 more rams than what the island biologist said where on the island. Coyotes on the island are terrible and I suspect they take a number of old rut worn rams.
A shame we feed a 60 thousand dollar sheep to a coyote.

 

[isayNUNYA]

While we are on the subject, antelope island rams are definitely dying of old age. While hunting deer on the island a few years ago counted 52 rams from one glassing point. I ended the day with a count of 71 rams. Counting 43 more rams than what the island biologist said where on the island. Coyotes on the island are terrible and I suspect they take a number of old rut worn rams.
A shame we feed a 60 thousand dollar sheep to a coyote.

 

[isayNUNYA]

While we are on the subject, antelope island rams are definitely dying of old age. While hunting deer on the island a few years ago counted 52 rams from one glassing point. I ended the day with a count of 71 rams. Counting 43 more rams than what the island biologist said where on the island. Coyotes on the island are terrible and I suspect they take a number of old rut worn rams.
A shame we feed a 60 thousand dollar sheep to a coyote.

 

[isayNUNYA]

While we are on the subject, antelope island rams are definitely dying of old age. While hunting deer on the island a few years ago counted 52 rams from one glassing point. I ended the day with a count of 71 rams. Counting 43 more rams than what the island biologist said where on the island. Coyotes on the island are terrible and I suspect they take a number of old rut worn rams.
A shame we feed a 60 thousand dollar sheep to a coyote.

 

[isayNUNYA]

WOW!
Dont know how that happened

 

[greatwestern]

^its prolly these stupid phones no? Or youre on primitive computer service like I am...or maybe its the website itself?? seems to suffer from its fair amount of problems

Rick, I do think that judging any age class ram from the air is foolish business, and that might be where the "class" system came about to begin with...biologists zipping overhead at a million miles an hour in combination with old school bios observations thru shabby optics

Trammer, thanks for elaborating, I appreciate your perspective...though while I agree with your general sentiment, I cannot agree with a universal application of such

At the burden of repeating myself, wild sheep are too varied and subject to localized phenomena to generalize upon, in age or score values.

Please don't take it the wrong way, I'm sure you know what I mean

 

[Trammer]

isayNUNYA, refer to UTAH DWR complete and total incompetence and lack of accountability. Utah DWR fails much of the time; because in truth, they are accountable to no one.If what you say, about the 71 rams is true, Utah should be issuing about 7 antelope island tags per year while maintaining it as an incubator herd for transplants; because old harvestable rams are not transplanted anyway.It does make complete and total sense to anyone who knows jack squat about how Utah DWR and their private fundraisers; SFW and UFNAWS operate; that some Cali units Like Newfys would only contain 20% 10 year old rams per permit issued while Antelope Island would contain 400% 10 year old rams per permit issued. Any sheep hunter with a lick of sense is left thinking WTF??? WTF??? and where is Utah UTFNAWS? And Where is SFW? MIA thats where I have found them both to be the last 10 years or so. Oh, they are not MIA, they are whoring out publicly owned sheep at Arctic Red and their new Stone Sheep concession in Canada for an 80% profit...