Changing Elk Tag Numbers in Utah

[whs]

Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: Changing Elk Managment

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In the centeral Rac it was brought up to look at other ways of mananging elk. Which I really like the idea. My question is this how many would support the idea of having draw only all elk hunts here in Utah?

With this there would be basically no over the counter tags at all. Now bare with me an let me explain. First of the number of spikes taken are counted in the herd counts for bulls harvested, With that it affects all the data here in Utah. So that inreturn accounts for lower tag numbers on limited entry units.

Arizona is a prime example of this, The offer no over the counter tags for elk. The offer anterless and any bull tags and then they do offer a few any elk tags. Now with this there herd is stated to have reached almost 35,000 in numbers. With that they offered in 2005 the following amount of tags.
Any weapon 5,840
Muzzleloader 508
Archery 2,679
Total 9,027
Archery 2,679
Now those tag numbers are for just Any bull tags. Now lets look at Utah. Utah elk herds have reached in numbers of 58,000
Any weapon 1,066
Muzzleloader 265
Archery 455
Premium 49
Total 1,835

Now If we eliminated the general season hunt we would be able to start allowing for more any bull elk tags. Now if you don't know much about elk in Arizona they produce great record book elk year in and year out. Now I like having a chance at good size bull. And I do believe that Utah can give out more tags, but we need to eliminate the general season hunt to do so. There is a few people with me on this topic that would like a chance at a big bull more then once in a lifetime. With this we can offer more tags and still be able to keep the quality high.


So here is the question who would support the elimintaion of general season hunts to offer more any bull tags in the draw process?

 

[huntin100]

I personally would support a change, more like Arizona. Even if they had a general spike hunt every other year on some general units. They would be able to double the limited entry permits,in afew years. Still have some spike hunting for meat only hunters and give kids a chance to shoot a spikes. You would need to look at carrying capacity per unit, harvest, and other factors. Many things could be done to provide more opportunity and maintain great quality imo.

 

[Deerlove]

Good idea also take the rifle hunt out of the rut like az does so we can increase the tags sold. Also issue more archery tags.

 

[257Tony]

They should get rid of ALL general season hunts, screw being able to take your kids hunting, and screw being able to hunt every year. Wouldnt it be better if we just hunted like every 5 years, but we would have a better chance of getting a "trophy" because as you knw, its all about rack size! Time spent in the outdoors with friends and family dont mean SQUAT! And who likes Elk summer sausage anyway??

 

[whs]

Well Tony,

I hope your not one of those that complain about not being able to hunt a mature bull in your lifetime. I respect your feelings but there are alot of hunters that are complaining about not getting a tag. Then the state lowers the age class and then they still complain. Now here comes along a way to allow quanity and quality and then they don't want to give up anything.

 

[whs]

Here is just another states stats to support allowing more numbers.

Here is some stats on New Mexico, Now with these numbers it includes all bull tags, some are point restrictions with 5 point or better. The tag numbers are as followed.

Archery 5,025 Either sex tags
Archery 1,750 Bull tags
Muzzleloader 3,480 Bull tags
Muzzleloader 35 Either Sex tags
Any weapon 5,865 Bull tags

Total 11,095 Bull tags
5,060 Either sex

Now this total does not count anterless tags.
Also in 2002 the states est. elk population was at 71,665
All this data is off every states DWR webpage


They are pushing 16,000+ limited entry bull tags a year, now we here in Utah are pushing 14,300 any bull tags and 11,000 spike tags and then 1,800 limited entry tags.

 

[PleaseDear]

Ray,
Certainly appreciate your time and effort giving all the numbers and stuff from other states.

Personally, I get sick and tired of having to 'draw' every and any species no matter where we seem to apply.

I like the way we have it now. If you don't draw LE go ahead and buy ya a General elk tag and go spend some time on the North or South slope enjoying the outting and the hunt.

It seems like when one of us starts to compare other states to ours.... we only put in the information that seems 'better' than ours.

There is plenty of fellow hunters in Az. that don't hunt every year like we can here in our state of Utah.... I want to be able to hunt elk every year without having to draw... or not draw....

Just my take, not trying to challenge you at all.

Robb

 

[DonVathome]

I like no rifle rut hunts (or very very few tags) and more bow tags - lowers success so more guys can hunt.

I think most states should issue a lot more bow tags, NM does a good job of this, WY lacks bow only tags, UT and AZ could use some more.

my 2 cents.

 

[whs]

Robb,

I agree with you as well. I think our system is fine. And I do go up to the north slope every year and have a grand time. I do look forward to the time I get to draw the limited entry elk tag, and don't have a problem waiting my time. What I do get tired of is hearing people whine that they did not draw. And they act like the state owes it to them to give them a tag. The draw is a chance nothing is forsure. It makes me sick that the DWR keeps caving into these people. I want to be able to have a chance at a great bull at least once in my life.

My thinking is this way of doing the elk hunt will allow both quanity and quality. But again I have no problem with our system now. Just trying to point stuff out to the whiners.

 

[elkantlers]

No over the counter tags! Bad Idea. 257Tony has it right.

 

[Silentstalker]

I would be against going to an all out draw. The negatives out weigh the positives. The mentality of most Utahn's is that cow or doe hunting is not cool and if you eliminate the bull tags to the general public you will lose a lot of hunters because antlerless would be most of what's available. Besides that, there is room to increase permit numbers as it stands now. Last year they gave out a large number of increased tag numbers and the average harvest age class actually went up. There is still room to increase the opportunity without giving up the quality. Hopefully when the elk committee reconveines? they will find a way to satisfy EVERYONE. Ya right. Good luck to those of you who drew!

Chad

 

[woodruffhunter]

Tony and Robb are absolutely right. I like having balance in the hunts. My biggest goal in the outdoors is not harvesting a 350 bull, rather spending and involving my kids as much as I can.

If they have to wait 5 years to hunt, there is a chance they will lose interest. I think there is every type of opportunity for elk in Utah. Why change a good thing????

 

[PleaseDear]

Yip and Yap all we want, Utah gives us basically Aug thru Dec. to be out in the woods chasing something to harvest and eat.

Dedicated Hunters have a great fall to be out and about.

Elk hunters can go from Aug thru Dec. bow hunting or another weapon of choice for quite a while too....

Throw in a antlerless tag and it is wonderful and cheap entertainment.... for your $$$

Mix and match weapon of choice like mzzy deer and bow elk or bow deer and mzzy elk..... it is fun....

Alot of the 'other' states that seem so much better, take all your points no matter what choice ya draw... big bull unit, general bull type unit or a cow hunt... I don't want to lose all my points for a North Slope bow elk tag... haha

Maybe lowering the tag allocation cap or doing it 1st come with in a shorter time frame... no leftover tags anymore.... but still have the general tag opportunity....

Robb

 

[2_Point]

The guy who posted on the other website had some pretty good points. Utah gives out 35,000+ bull tags. Arizona gives out 9,027. Maybe Arizona should try Utah's management style.

Why do guys want to move the hunt out of the rut? Most of the late hunts had better success rates than the early hunts on the same units. The DWR lessened many units' late permits because of the late season success rates.

I think we should just leave the system alone.

 

[Deerlove]

2pt a late hunt for me would be at the end of Oct not in Nov.

 

[Dahlmer]

Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:06 am Post subject:

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Utah has a real problem on their hands now and the longer they let it go the more difficult it is going to become to fix it. In 2005 about 60,000 people applied for less than 2,000 LE Elk tags. If applicants continue to grow at the current rate then in about 4 years there will be more than 100,000 people applying for about 2,000 tags....it will take at least 50 years for all of these people to draw a tag. Those are not good odds.

Leaving the system as it stands today and getting rid of spike tags will create a management nightmare as the bull to cow ratios will become far to high and in the end will not likely create greater opportunity for hunters. The habitat can only hold so many elk and if too many of them are bulls it will be reflected in the health of the herd.

The state currently has two groups of hunters (neither of which is right or wrong) and only one is being provided opportunity as they define it. Lowering the overall age class of bulls is not going to significantly affect the current system. It will only create unrest and ultimately will not provide either group of hunters what they want.

I propose that the state manage the elk hunts more similarly to the deer hunts. While they maintain certain LE hunts in areas where there currently are no spike hunts (ie Pahvant, SW Desert, Book Cliffs, etc.) other units become branch antler bulls only (ie brow tines). Give hunters the opportunity to choose how they define opportunity.

For those who define opportunity as the chance to hunt then its general branch antler bulls. These hunters will have the opportunity to hunt more frequently for mature bulls, however they will have to fight more hunters and will not be able to hunt during the rut or a during late season. There chances of killing a 300 class bull or better are also significantly diminished.

For those who define opportunity as 350+ bulls, they can spend there efforts applying for Premuium hunts but forgo the opportunity to hunt the general season. They will still have early, late and premium seasons and will have to fight fewer hunters but will rely on the hunting gods to smile upon them to draw a tag.

I don't believe that the DWR set out to create a once in a lifetime hunt for mature bulls 15-20 years ago when they began shutting areas down and reopening them as limited entry units, but that is what Utah has become. I personally just recieved my 12th annual "unsuccessful" letter. In 12 more years when guys with the maximum points have 20+ years invested into their LE Elk tags it is going to be much more difficult and unpopular to make the chages that will have to made. I am 31 and should draw within the next 3 years, but I will likely never hunt an LE unit in Utah again. If we as hunters want to have opportunity in any form it is going to require that we all give something up or none of us will get anything at all.

The state should also require the tag be paid for with the application and then the money returned upon reciept of the "unsuccessful" letter. Just about every other state out their does this and Utah used to as well. There are tons of people putting in their wives, kids, and dog who don't hunt simply to increase their odds of having a tag in the family. If they had to pay up front a lot of these folks would stop applying.

Anyway, something to chew on.

 

[huntin100]

Alot of good points Dahlmer. Things could and should be done to provide more opportunity and maintain quality. I agree with money up front. Reduce tag fee for kids.

 

[rutnbuck]

Quit making all that noise. I am sleeping this is retarded!!
Just play the game and quit your bawling and belly-acheing. Or do ya want to stand in time out?

Rut

Women love me!! Fish shudder at the mention of my name!!
It's not the quack but the flight of the wild duck that leads the flock to destiny!!
Quack Away!!

 

[Silentstalker]

Dalmer,

Why should my wife and kids not be able to hunt LE elk? Who designated you as thr rightful owner of the elk herds. EVERYONE is entitled to the opportunity to hunt LE elk. Your right,The system is screwed up beyond belief, but eliminating families opportunities to apply is wrong.

 

[JakeH]

silentstalker, you wouldnt be eliminating families opportinities to apply, they could still apply they would just have to pay up front. That way you would eliminate those guys that put there wives (who havent hunted in there lives) in every year, And it is still ok if they do put them in.


MM Member since 1999. Jake H

 

[Dahlmer]

I never said your wife and kids can't hunt SilentStalker...I'm talking about those who have never hunted and have no interest in hunting....like my wife.

 

[whs]

LAST EDITED ON May-11-06 AT 02:26PM (MST)[p]""Leaving the system as it stands today and getting rid of spike tags will create a management nightmare as the bull to cow ratios will become far to high and in the end will not likely create greater opportunity for hunters.""

If you take a look at the other states that offer only bull hunts and have no spike tags. Their bull to cow ratio is 20-34 bulls to 100 cows. This is the objective of the ratio that they want in Utah. A few areas here in Utah are pushing over 50% bulls to cows. Some say the proof is in the pudding. If other states are able to offer both quality and quanity on elk tags then I am sure Utah can as well. It just has to have the support of selfish hunters. In regards to sending all fees with the application, I am all in favor of that.

 

[DallanC]

Change the system back so you have to pony up ALL of the tag fee up front at the time of the application and you will see MASSIVE drop off in the # of people applying.

We probably have only 50,000 true hunters in the state for elk but those 50,000 are putting in their wifes, parents, siblings etc etc for more chances to draw.

The $5 app fee is a JOKE. You want a tag step up and plunk down the ENTIRE fee cost up front.


-DallanC

 

[inline]

People talk about increasing the tags every year and they show that they increased tags last year and the havest age went up. So it must not be having any impact. You can't judge the impact of the increase off of one years data. It will take two or three years to know what effect the increased harvest it is having.

These same people that are camplaining about having to wait so long will be the ones whinning in 10 years when there aren't any more big bulls around because we are killing them all before they mature. Due to all the tag increases.

 

[2_Point]

The facts reported by the DWR show there are 25-30 bulls per 100 cows on the Public Land OPEN Bull units. General season units.

Some of Utah's Limited Entry units hold herds with 1 bull per 1 cow (San Juan and others). For every Year in age class you manage for decreases opportunity by 50%. So if you have a herd with 500 bulls in it you can offer 400 tags for 2 year old raghorns or 200 tags for 3 year old bulls or 100 tags for 4 year old bulls or 50 tags for 5 year old bulls or 25 tags for 6-7 year old bulls.

To carry so many bulls which will meet the high age objectives, many cows are shot out of the herd because the range canonly carry a certain number of animals. After a time, the bulls on the unit will out number thew cows. It is unfortunate that the state of Utah is forced to manage elk by number (B&C).

I also agree with the pay-to-play. Put up the money and those who want to hunt will find a way to pay for the application.