New Elk Tags Utah LE

PleaseDear

PleaseDear

Long Time Member
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This is from an Email via Don Peay to John Bair on what the Elk committe has 'decided' to do on the future of LE elk in Utah....

Once in a Lifetime LE elk tags for the Joe Lunchbox hunters and selllng 'inches' to the high rollers....

or......

Utah will remain #1 for big bulls........

Robb




"In a major victory for hunters who love to hunt BIG bulls, or go on hunts with their friends and family who get BIG BULL permits, the Utah Elk Working Group tonight recommended to the Wildlife Board to increase each elk unit average age of bulls harvested by ONE full year.



The committee also adopted starting an experimental plan to take some management bulls (mature 5X5 or 5X6 bulls) from unit where there are almost 100 bulls per 100 cows. Removing these bulls will allow for more cow elk to stay on the units to produce yearling elk.



The committee also recommended to have the 27 elk units be managed as follows:



Not more than 6 units be in the 6-7 year old average age class

The majority of the units be in the 5-6 year average age class

Not less than 4 units in the 4-5 average age class.



AS current, the elk plans had units at 3-4, 4-5 and 5-6 average age.



If this had NOT passed, the Pavant, San Juan, and other world class units would have seen a 2 to 2.5 year drop in average age of bulls harvested.



The Manti and Wasatch units would have gone from current 7 year old bulls down to 4. Now, these units can stay up around 6 year old bulls, which means there will be some 8-9 year old bulls on the units.



If the Board adopts, this new plan will keep Utah the number ONE trophy elk state.



Additional hunting opportunities will be gained by having management bull hunts, and via habitat improvement projects that will allow for increased herd sizes in some units, where it won't hurt mule deer or impact ranchers.



Steve Perry, Ryan Foutz, James Gilson and other SFW members did a great job. Sir William Christensen of the RMEF did a great job as well. Support from the Utah Bowmen?s Association (UBA) and the CWMU association was also key to the victory.



The DWR is in favor of the recommendations, so it should be easy for the Board to accept. The DWR actually proposed these recommendations after listening to committee comments for 5 different meetings. Craig McLaughlin, DWR coordinator did a nice job as did Director Karpowitz.



For those who just want to kill a bull ? go to Colorado !!"
 
God how I love UTAH the home of the dwr and there million tag cow elk hunts every year now the sfw join's in with if you don't like what we're doing go to colorado to hunt!!!!!! wow I am glad I moved to Wyoming!!!!
 
ww!!! ww!!! ww!!! ww!!!

ww!!!

DID YOU HEAR THAT???

IF YOU WANT TO KILL A PISSCUTTER BULL GO TO COLORADO!!!

NOW DON'T GET PISSY WITH ME!!!

THIS IS THE UDWR TELLING YOU THIS!!!

I'VE ALREADY TOLD YOU!!!

WE'RE GONNA RAISE THE AGE CLASS & WE DON'T CARE IF THE OPPOTUNISTS LIKE IT OR NOT!!!

MAYBE YOU CAN PUT IN FOR A 3 X 4 BULL,4 X 5 BULL OR A 5 x 6 BULL PERMIT???

THAT OUGHT TO BE ENOUGH TO PISS YOU OFF???

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING YOU MIGHT WANT TO GO TO COLORADO FOR A PISSCUTTER!!!
 
AWHOLELOTTABULL!!!

THERES TOO MANY OPPORTUNISTS THAT NEVER DID ONE DAMN THING TO HELP WITH L.E. TROPHY UNITS!!!

BUT BOY ONCE THEY SEE SOME 320" BULLS SURVIVING THEY WANT TO KILL THEM!!!

THE ONLY bobcat SUGGESTING ONCE & AGAIN:FOR ALL YOU OPPORTUNISTS THAT WANT TO SHOOT A PISSCUTTER,WELL GO BUY YOURSELF A GENERAL TAG & GO DO IT & QUIT YOUR BEACHING!!!
 
I'm not sure I heard what I just read.

Did SFW just tell me they were working for trophy hunters on this commitee? I thought it was "Sportsman" for Fish and Wildlife!

As always it was sugar coated....Here is a management hunt for the rest of you.

Are there any area's where the elk population hasn't impacted in some fasion the deer herds? I remember a past director of the DWR, John Kimbal as a regional biologist back in the 80's say "you can have elk or deer or some of both, but not alot of both. Love elk, don't get me wrong but have we gone over the edge when hunting is all about inches of antler?

Did the RMEF just single out and endorse a trophy mentality? (kiss that membership good bye)

Did Don just tell the Wildlife Board how to vote? A Wildlife Board that represents all sportsmen and citizens of Utah along with the wildlife?

But I heard this loud and clear...........Don just told the SFW market pool to GO TO COLORADO!

And before all you "guides and outfitters" start pointing fingers at opportunists.............go look in the mirror.
 
RE: ww!!! ww!!! ww!!! ww!!!

Yeah BESSY I heard that loud and clear. The DWR should just as well put a tag for unicorns. You will probably have a chance of hunting one of those once in your lifetime as well.

THE ONLY ww THAT IN 24 HOURS WILL BE LOOKING DOWN INTO BLACK CANYON WITH A BOW IN HAND. DO YA HEAR THAT BESS I WILL BE HUNTING?? NOT WAITING FOR A TAG FOR A MYTHICAL ANIMAL I WILL BE HUNTING.
 
Pretty typical. Lets just make the whole state once in a lifetime. Does the public have a say or is it all about SFW and their agenda. Obviously, big money won and the guides and outfitters are all happy and will stay in big business with all the elk shoots. Also there are guys with a lot of bonus points that are happy because of their own selfishness. They are thinking more about themselves than the big picture here. Big horns means big money for everyone except the typical guy and his family making an average income. This is a sad day for the average Sportsman. I'll say it again. Take most of the gun hunting out of the rut!!!! Our hunts currently are like put em in a corral and shoot the biggest and the best!! 100% success rates are not hunts!!!Actually let some archery hunters have some of the rut. And get rid of the money tags and conservation tags. What a joke.
 
Glad to see SFW, I mean the elk committee save ther "Conservation" tags, I mean elk herd! This is truly a loss for the Sportsmen and a win for Conservation tags. If the sportsmen of utah actually got to hunt these elk the overall size would indeed drop. This would kill the Conservation tag sales which is what drives this organization. Pretty sad when someone who supposedly serves the sportsmen of this state is telling everyone to go hunt Colorado. What a pathetic leader. What a sad day.

Chad
 
Chad, why do you want to take Utah back in time to the 80's? I can't see any negatives to this proposal. Like BESS says if you want a pisscutter get an open bull tag or go to Colorado or Idaho where the herd bulls are dinks. Are you saying you want Utah to go back to that kind of quality? What about all the people with 13+ points, do we say to bad all you get now is a pisscutter?
The majority of the management tags will go to archers and those who are happy with pisscutters can go for these tags. This way the bull-cow ratios improve w/o ruining the quality.
I also dont know what is meant by "sportsmen" actually getting to hunt. Aren't all the people hunting now "sportsmen"? Or are they just killers?
 
I get so tired of hearing everyone complain about not drawing an elk tag. There was never a problem when we didn't have such big bulls. But now that we are taking big bulls everyone wants there tag now like a bunch of little kids. So you cry and wine to the division, so they will raise that tag numbers and kill off the big bulls. So when I have waited my turn and draw my tag I will be hunting a 300 bull. I don't think that is right it is selfish I would rather wait a few more years and at least have a chance at a good bull.

I think this is great news. If you want to hunt a bull sooner put in for one of those 3-4 age class units and you can go hunt your little bull now. But don't take away everyone's chance at a big bull.

Inline
 
Most of you will never get a chance at one of these bulls. Our kids will likely never draw a tag. By increasing the age classification by one year eliminates a lot of tags for each one of you that have never drawn. The problem is it would lower the overall size of bulls also. The DWR and the last elk committee did several great things by questioning the sportsmen to see what they would like to see. The overall majority of hunters in this state would rather get a chance to hunt at the cost of a little quality. I am not sure why you guy's think that it is either 400 bulls or pisscutters and nothing in between. There is room for increased permits without negativly effecting the herd. I absolutly do not want to go back to 1980 elk herds. Controlled increases of tags will not do that. Putting the age classes back to extremely high ages is going to negativly effect the herds. San Jaun has over 100 bulls per 100 cows. This herd is set up to crash. If the majority of Sportsmen were for this exclusive management than I would just accept it but they are not. A lot of you guy's are totally for it, and that is fine but you do not represent the majority of hunters in this state. I know not everyone can be happy the way this whole thing has been set up, but it does not mean we should just look the other way so certain groups can capitilize on Conservation permits at the cost of a lot of hunting permits to the public.
 
Silent stalker I agree with you about the fact that some increases are needed, but like you said controlled increases. There is no way you can raise tags one year and realize the impact that it had the next year. All we have done for the last couple years is raise tags each year. I would just like us to give it some time to see what kind of impact we have having with these increases before we raise them again.

Inline
 
Pay attention to what has been said and I'll say it again. That is why there will be management tags to thin out the bad genetics and lower the bull to cow ratio with OUT reducing the quality of a unit such as the San Juan. If you are happy with a "lesser" bull then put in fot a management tag or buy a any-bull tag(or go to Colo.).
Last year when the DWR proposed to increase the number of tags on some of the units like the Wasatch the RAC meetings were not overwhelming in favor of but against the increases. Not really sure what majority of what group of "sportsmen" you're talking about.
No one is suggesting decreasing the number of permits,
it's just not wanting to increase the numbers and sacrifice the quality
 
I think its GREAT.Guys who just want to kill a bull will get the chance on the management hunts.And the guys who want to hold out to draw a Trophy tag will get theres also.Win-win.I think its funny if it wasnt for SFW no one would be arguing all this cause the Elk hunting would be as bad as it was before they go involved...If you dont like what they are doing get involved.
 
BOBCAT

How big does a bull have to be to not be considered a "PISSCUTTER BULL" in a real good area?
 
The way I see it is this is a great compromise for the opportunists and us inch mobsters. They found a way to keep quality and increase opportunity with management hunts and the opportunists are still unhappy, Imagine that.

Whats funny to me is it been stated 100's of times on these forums if you just want to hunt bulls buy a general tag or go out of state and no one hears it. Don Peay says it once and everyone herd it.
 
So let me get this straight, the premium LE permits will OIL, correct. And the management hunts will be 5 year wait like it has been? if thats the case, I am cool with it. I would take a San Juan 5pt over a Diamond Mountain 6pt anyday. There is some 300+ 5pts running down there.......




 
Heres one of those 300 five points.
44e62bc70f76aac7.jpg
 
I'M SICK OF PANZY ASSES!!!

IT'S ABOUT FRICKEN TIME SOMEBODY READ THE LETTERS & E-MAILS I'VE SENT OUT!!!

YOU PANZY ASSES DON'T LIKE IT TAKE A F###ING HIKE TO COLORADO!!!

YOU'VE HEARD IT FROM ME & YOU'RE HEARING IT NOW FROM THE BOSS!!!

Billdog!!!

PISSCUTTERS ARE PISSCUTTERS!!!

SUB 300" BULLS ARE PISSCUTTERS IN ANY L.E. UNIT!!!

THESE PANZY ASSES WANTING TO KILL PISSCUTTERS IN L.E. UNITS CAN TAKE A HIKE!!!

THEY CAN GO HUNT AN OPEN UNIT & TAKE A PISSCUTTER,IT AIN'T THAT HARD TO DO!!!

inline IS ON TRACK!!!

GLAD TO SEE ANOTHER M.M.'ER THAT CAN SEE THE LIGHT!!!

ALL YOU BOYS THAT DON'T LIKE THEM BUMPING THE AGE CLASS BACK UP A LITTLE CAN TAKE A HIKE CUZZ I'M PART TO BLAME ON THIS ONE,IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT TOO DAMN BAD!!!

THE ONLY bobcat SUGGESTING ONCE & AGAIN:IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT CUZZ A FEW PISSCUTTERS SURVIVED IN L.E. UNITS & YOU CAN'T SLAUGHTER THEM WELL THATS TOO DAMN BAD,IT TAKES MEDIUM BULLS TO MAKE BIG STINKY BULLS,THE KIND ME & ktc LIKE!!!
 
Nice photo Antler1.

You guys kill me! Is this not a compromise? Everything is blamed on SFW. Do we blame them for the huge bulls and great elk hunting or is it just too good? Those who want 3-4 age objectives have a whole new tier of tags in the management tags. Or were you hoping to get a tag and get the biggest and best bull by sneaking under the radar soon by wishing for lower age objectives?

I am for one glad SFW is doing something besides letting the herds get ruined down from what they are now. Sure, I want another tag, but with 10's of thousands applying it probably won't happen. So goes life. Should we be blame SFW for the state of Utah's population booming?

Take the hunts out of the rut. Maybe that will work, but this does not mean take one out and put another one in.

I say good job to those who are fighting tooth and nail to preserve the quality. This is one sportman who is very pleased. If you want to shoot and elk buy a spike tag, archery tag, any bull general season tag, or a cow tag. There are tons of them available and one to fit your needs.
 
ktc!!!

WE POSTED ABOUT THE SAME TIME!!!

READ POST # 20!!!

GOOD LUCK & BE GLAD YOU PULLED THE PERMIT WHEN YOU DID!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WAITING FOR ALL THE CRY BABIES TO START CRYING!!!
 
I remember that they had a 3 point or bigger for deer and alot of 2 points were left to rot.Any suggestions on how they will control the management hunts so alot of mature bulls will not be killed and either left on the mountain or illegaly taken home?
I am for this all the way to keep the age up and mature bulls but it worries me what could happen if guys with management permits shoot first and ask questions later when they have just killed a 380 bull.Am I reading this correct will all the top units be hunted for management bulls also?
I think if you had to check your elk in mandatory or lose all your rights to hunt Utah in the future this could work other wise expect alot of big bull to be killed and snuck out.
 
sorry, i just cannot help but think that the reason SFW is so much for larger age class is that the bigger bulls, and less tags means higher bids from their rich guys who hunt every year because they can afford it. I think there needs to be both types of units myself, but like i said, i dont trust Peays motive anymore than i trusted Taulmans motives on the lawsuits.
 
BOBCAT
I agree with you. I think that it is a great management tool. I haven't been putting in for San Juan for 10 years to shoot a 320 class bull. You can do that anywhere. But seriously you need to settle down, maybe take some prozak, sip on a beer and don't have a redneck melt down on every post. You will break your keyboard.
 
BIRDEM!!!

WE'RE IN THE PROCESS OF MAKING IT A MINIMUM 75,000.00 FINE TO TAKE AN ILLEAGAL BULL ON THE MANAGEMENT PERMITS!!!

YOU'LL LOSE YOUR HUNTING RIGHTS FOREVER!!!

YOU LOSE YOUR RIFLE!!!

YOU LOSE YOUR ATV,TRUCK & CAMP TRAILOR!!!

YOU LOSE YOUR HUNTING RIGHTS IN EVERY OTHER STATE ALSO!!!

YOU SPEND A MINIMUM OF 15 YEARS IN JAIL!!!

YOU PAY 25,000.00 MINIMUM FOR THE ANIMAL!!!

YOUR PICTURE & NAME IS PUT ON NATIONAL TV FOR 3 MONTHS STRAIGHT!!!

YOU LOSE YOUR TRIGGER FINGER,THEY CUT IT OFF AT THE BASE OF YOUR HAND!!!

THE ONLY bobcat HOPEING ALL THE NEW RULES GO THROUGH,ITS OUR ONLY HOPE!!!
 
bobcatbess,
Now if they will stick with that plan it should work out great.Maybe people will look before they shoot.I can see it now evertime you see someone without a trigger finger you can tell them you should have looked at the rack a little closer.
I say cut both arms completely off and maybe a leg if it is over 370 plus.
 
BIRDEM!!!

YOU GOT IT!!!

I'M JUST LIKE YOU!!!

I CAN SEE A PROBLEM!!!

I SEEN THE SAME PROBLEM IN THE BOOK CLIFFS MANY MOONS AGO!!!

YOUR PLAN MIGHT BE THE BEST!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING WHAT MIGHT HELP A LITTLE MIGHT HURT US ALOT???
 
The majority of these management tags will most likely go to archers who have to be close to make a kill. This will help minimize the number of illegal kills. No plan is perfect and some tweaking of this will happen but, the benifits are large and the pain is small. This will end up giving out more tags overall not less. Again this will keep the quality up and help balance out the bull to cow ratios on those that are out of whack.
 
IF!!! the proposal passes , its a sad day for the ordinary hunter and a great win for the business of hunting. Its brilliant. Throw out some scraps( management hunts) to quiet the masses wile at the same time improving the " genetics" ( trophy quality in the eyes of B&C)and value of the tags and hunts.IF I am a man of means I am elated. I get to hunt world class animals any time I please. If I'm an outfitter I love it, my bottom line just went up. If Im a dedicated fundraiser for a con org,I blindly tolerate it for the greater good. If I own a a little irrigated pasture in the right place I cheer it on because I deserve compensation way beyond actual damages . If I own a CWMU in the right place you cant wipe the smile from my face. My profit margin just keeps going up. If I'm just an ordinary hunter with ordinary means I'm screwed. Ya I can join SFW or MDF or RMEF or whoever but I cant make a difference. All I will be is a membership # with out a voice. The voices listened to are the voices in the business of hunting. IF YOUR AN ORDINARY HUNTER CHEERING THIS PROPORSAL ON , YOU ARE AN ORDINARY HUNTER THATS BEEN SUCKERED.Just my opinion
 
>
>BIRDEM!!!
>
>WE'RE IN THE PROCESS OF MAKING
>IT A MINIMUM 75,000.00 FINE
>TO TAKE AN ILLEAGAL BULL
>ON THE MANAGEMENT PERMITS!!!
>
>>>YOUR PICTURE & NAME IS PUT
>ON NATIONAL TV FOR 3
>MONTHS STRAIGHT!!!
>
>

I would pay Bobcats fines just to see his picture in the paper to see what he looks like!!
The only Schmalts who wonders if Bobcat is really bigfoot!
 
SUCK IT IN BOYS!!!

MAYBE ALL YOU OPPORTUNISTS CAN PUT IN FOR A PISSCUTTER MANAGEMENT BULL!!!

I'LL BET ktc IS ON CLOUD 10!!!

HE'LL NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ALL THE CHANGES THE OPPORTUNISTS ARE SCREAMING FOR!!!

HE'LL BE HUNTING THE STINKIEST BULLS ON EARTH!!!

TAKE THAT BOYS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat GLAD TO KNOW THE AGE CLASS IS IMPORTANT TO MORE THAN JUST ME!!!
 
For all of you guys that think the CWMU owners and Outfitters are making a killing off of this in Utah I will give you a few facts. #1 there are not enough CWMU permits to make a killing in Utah. #2 I have guided in both Utah and Colorado. The Colorado outfitters are the ones making a fortune off of tags. They are getting $6500 a tag on RFW units that will harvest an average of 25-35 bulls a year scoring an average of 260-270 B&C. If you are an outfitter that doesn't participate in the RFW program you can take as many bulls as you see fit. I guided on a ranch that harvested 60 bulls a year. Now that's a killing. The most successfull ranches I know of are using a management system when it comes to maintaining their trophy animals. Last year one of my hunters took a 5x5 bull that gross scored 357(http://www.awholelottabull.com/trophygallery_view.php?view=baurer_s). That bull would fit under the new management system. For all of you that think that the DWR is throwing out some "sucker tags", you haven't been down on the Pahvant, Dutton, or San Juan lately. There are bulls on these units that score better than the average bulls taken off of the Wasatch and Manti units by guys that have the premium tags. Don't beet it down until we see if it will work. I see this as an opportunity for the "average hunter" to hunt elk in the state of Utah more than once in his life. I drew a tag this year for archery elk and I am excited about this new proposal to say the least. I see it as a golden opportunity to hunt another great bull in a great unit again in the near future.
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Truth is in Colorado they get just as much for a private tag as in Utah and they do kill a hell of alot more elk. More tags=more money. People from back east that only get to hunt whitetails are more than willing to pay $4000+ to kill a 250 class bull in Colorado. You can't compare what landowner/operators in Colo. make vs. the meager dollars made in Utah. Yes these conservation tags bring in a ton of money but, who is getting rich besides our wildlife? An outfitter gets about the same to guide a conservation tag holder as a LE tag holder.TRUE STORY!! So an outfitter can benifit from more LE tags being issued if it was just about money. The MAJORITY has spoken and has said they don't want Utah to be the land of the pisscutter bull.
The average Joe who is happy with a 300-330 class bull benifits big time from this proposal. Don't let hatred for SFW get in the way of logic, there were alot more people than just SFW, MDF, and RMEF involved on this committee. There are average Joes on board as well.
 
AS USSUAL!!!

THE OPPORTUNISTS SCORE AN INCH & THEY'RE PISSING & MOANING ALREADY!!!

DID THEY EVEN READ THE PLAN???

WHINNING BUGGERS!!!

I SWEAR TO GOD THEY WOULDN'T BE HAPPY EVEN IF WE OPENED THE WHOLE STATE WITH YEAR A ROUND HUNTING!!!

THE ONLY bobcat HOPEING THE FIRST LAW BREAKER THEY CATCH BREAKING MANAGEMENT BULL RULES WILL BE HUNG WITH A NOOSE!!!
 
My son and I were looking at this thread and he ask me why some of you were refering to lesser bulls as p cutters.

I didn't have a good answer, maybe you could help us understand it. He's 13 and didn't think that the name seemed to show much respect for the elk using that word.

You see I've tried to teach him that elk are elk. They all have some purpose in the social structure.
 
RILEY!!!

NO OFFENSE TO YOU OR YOUR YOUNG BOY!!!

IT'S NOT A CUSS WORD!!!

IT'S NOT A SWEAR WORD EITHER!!!

IT'S A WORD ME & MOSTLY ONE OF MY HUNTING BUDDIES INVENTED ALOT OF YEARS AGO!!!

PISSCUTTER = SUB TROPHY CLASS OF THE SPECIES!!!

NOW WE DON'T HATE PISSCUTTERS!!!

IN FACT OPPORTUNISTS LOVE THEM!!!

TROPHY HUNTERS LIKE THEM AS WELL,WE HOPE THE PISSCUTTERS GROW UP TO BE TROPHY CLASS!!!

BUT THE OPPORTUNISTS THINK THEY SHOULD SHOOT ELK AT SUB TROPHY CLASS,AKA A PISSCUTTER!!!

I HOPE THIS HELPS SPLAIN IT???

IT'S BEEN A DAMN LONG DAY & I'M LIVING PROOF THE NOMAD BUCK LIVES,IN FACT I LET HIM LIVE TODAY!!!

THE ONLY bobcat HOPEING THIS HELPS!!!
 
RILEY!!!

ONE MORE THING!!!

I'M SURE YOU'VE HEARD "DINK BULL"???

IT'S KINDA THE SAME!!!

NOT THE PERTIEST WORD BUT IT HAS A MEANING!!!

THE ONLY bobcat!!!
 
Now that Utah is going to sock it to us nores hunters with the higher fees maybe our opinion will matter so I say keep the elk quality like it is, you've done great. one big six point is better than six spikes any day. some folks never care about quality just quantity, I don't get it.
 
BESSY I leave town for a few days and you go and obviously get into the catnip. I hope you reply to this and show that you are still alive and scratching and don't truly have rabies or distemper or what ever sent you into a multiple orgasm all weekend.

So let me get this straight the inch mobbers are delighted because they still get the elusive 401 bulls they whine about non-stop. As a bowhunter I get opportunity, which is good, I can get with that. Hell bowhunters were able to get the percentages in their favor for once. Hell I may just break into multiple's as well BESSY.

Now while we are all so high in the sky I have a couple of quick questions.

1 What happens when all of the "good" genetics are taken by the opportunists that want a 340 - 350 inch 5x5?? Do we let the next generation of future 401 bulls receive the genetics from the 2x4 or 3x4, true lifelong raghorns, that all of the opportunists pass on. It will only take a generation BESSY.

2 What happens when the realization that archers only have a 15% success rate and to meet management objectives for the high bull to cow ratio's on these units we need to bring in the rifle hunters to help thin these "pisscutters" out of the herd.
A management bull looks about the same as a small 6x6 when running through the timber at 300 yards through even a swarovski. You can penalize these guy's all you want to but the fact remains a potential 401 bull has just been harvested illegally and that sumbitch ain't passing no gene's on no more no how.

3 If you inch hunters with points in the low teens think for one second that this is going to help your odds in drawing you have been hitting the catnip. Like you always say " I've waited my turn!! The DWR owes BESSY a 401 bull "

4 Either way this plan goes you are still killing the "non pisscutter bulls", now we are only doing it a generation earlier.

this plan is a huge step in the right direction, so it aint all bad and hopefully once the DWR finds out just how low of success bowhunters really do have they will do what should have been done years ago.
 
......and I was wondering where all of these 400 bulls are?

Out of 1500+ tags last year wasn't only 5 or so over 400? Sounds pretty rough to score one of this caliber to me. Maybe I do it wrong?
 
It is always hard to get involved with this type of a discussion because everyone has there own ideas of what is right and what will work, when in reality none of us really do. For my self I have to agree with the post that KTC just posted that there really are just a handful of those 400 class bulls out there and the odds of harvesting one are slim to none even though all of us dream of doing so! I shot a mid 350 class bull last year and though some of you may think he is a "pisscutter" for me he is a trophy. I was taught that the fun of the hunt isn't in the harvest, although it is a highlight of the hunt, the fun comes from being out in the mountains enjoying family, friends and God's creations. These same Ideals I will pass on to my son and daughter, because they are great ideals. I do want there to be elk and deer available for them to shoot on public land so I know that there has to be some management, and what is the best way to manage our herds? I don't know. I will leave that to the professionals that know what they are doing. Don't let our personal agendas ruin the great heritage that our grandparents left for us. Having an opinion is great but don't try to tell someone that if they don't have the same opinion as you to leave the state to hunt. Let someone take a 350 class or even a 250 class bull as a trophy if that is a trophy to them.
 
It sounds better to say 401 than 370+ ktc. What ww fails to admit/see is that killing raghorns(pisscutters) will not get rid of all the quality genetics it will help ensure they are passed on. I have not heard one person say they thought this plan would increase ones odd for drawing a LE tag in a premium unit. What will do is make it POSSIBLE that when they finally draw a tag there will be the POSSIBILITY of a 370+ bull instead of a 340+ bull. The increased tags will go to those WILLING to shoot a lesser quality bull and not be killing all the big bulls in 1-2 years.Say what you want about genetics but, I'll bet that in Colorado (home of the pisscutter) they could get some monster bulls in 4-5 years if they managed for quality instead of quanity. The genetics are still there just not allowed to show because the bulls dont live long enough to get that big.
ww, if you are representing archers why are you trying to sell the point that archers cant be an affective management tool in Utah. UBA believes that archers can and are cabable of HELPING in situations like this.
Again increased tags for those who are willing to take a 'lesser' bull yet keeping the quality high for those who are willing to wait 15+ year for a chance at a bull of a lifetime! WIN-WIN!!
 
Bart, Bowhunters can be an awesome management tool
used in the right way. just like the post under my last
as long as the hunters in the state choose to look at the success rates from the LE archery hunts instead of what this plan is meant to be ( AR-301 at 14% success to kill some elk ) we will not manage bulls unless they take into account the amount of tags bowhunters will need to get this done.

Now that being said do you see bowhunters getting 300 - 400
tags next year, in addition to the amount of LE tags we now get?? even as high as was stated above at 50 %
thats 150 to 200 bulls. I say success will be closer to around 15% so if they want 200 bulls harvested from the bucket bulls
well then we are going to need a ton of tags to get this done

( 1325 x 15% = 198.75 bulls harvested )

The 14%-15% came from data over the life of the AR-301
hunt data this data was compiled and used by UBA during the life of the hunt. So what is it going to be using a 50% success rate and not killing anything or using the 15% success rates and asking for 1300 tags. I realize there will be other weapon choices used to hunt these bucket bulls so the tag numbers won't be that high but if that does in fact turn out to be the bowhunters portion of the harvest that is what it is going to take to hit the harvest figures.

OK so now we are back at square one with bowhunters going into the RACs whining because we need all of these tags to hit
the bowhunters portion of the harvest. Either we piss every other group of hunters off because we are getting a huge portion or the pie or the DWR brings in "other methods" to get the harvest they need.

Go back and read the last paragraph of my post
this is a step in the right direction. BUT!! to get the right results from bowhunters you need to face the reality of what it is really going to take to get to this point and if the people running wildlife in Utah want to believe it.
 
ww!!!

FOR A BOW HUNTER YOU SEEM TO BE QUITE UNEDUCATED IN THE L.E. FIELD!!!

15% MY ASS!!!

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

THESE L.E. HUNTS EVEN FOR BOW HUNTERS ARE 100% IF THEY WANT IT TO BE!!!

QUIT FRICKEN TROPHY HUNTING,BAG YOUR PISSCUTTER,GO HOME & REPORT YOUR SUCCESS TO THE DWR & QUIT FRICKEN LIEING TO THE DWR!!!

MANAGEMENT BULLS ARE 5x6,3x4 BULLS,REMEMBER,THE KIND YOU WANT TO SHOOT!!!

MAKE OPPORTUNISTS SHOOT NOTHING BUT 3x4 BULLS FOR ALL I CARE!!!

DON'T BE TAKING PISS POOR SHOTS AT BULLS YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ARE,THATS WHAT!!!

SCROLL UP & SEE A NEW LIST OF THINGS WE DO TO OPPORTUNISTS SHOOTING TROPHY BULLS ON A MANAGEMENT TAGS!!!

I'M ADDING A COUPLE MORE!!!

WE CASTERATE THEM ON THE FIRST OFFENSE!!!

STUPID PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BREED,RIGHT???

I NEVER SAID IT WOULD IMPROVE MY ODDS DIP$HIT!!!

BUT WE KEEP THE AGE CLASS UP A BIT,SOMETHING YOU OPPORTUNISTS CAN'T STAND,BITE ME!!!

THE DWR DOESN'T OWE ME A BULL!!!

SOMEDAY THEY MIGHT GIVE ME A "CHANCE" TO HUNT TROPHY BULLS!!!

FYFI!!!

KNOW WHAT THAT STANDS FOR???

IF THE BOW HUNTER SUCCESS RATE IS LOW(WHICH IT AIN'T!!!)THE ww'S GOT TOO DAMN PICKY OR ARE LIEING!!!

WTFU!!!

KNOW WHAT THAT ONE MEANS???

THE ONLY bobcat NOT BUYING ww'S BULL$HIT,NOT EVEN FOR A MINUTE!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-06 AT 08:10PM (MST)[p] CATMESS man glad to still see ya alive and kicking!!
I was worried about ya. Apparently Bowhunting stats
work worldwide but not in Utah is that what you are telling me CATWOMAN?? You are telling me a bowhunt that happens outside of the rut has a freaking 50% success rate?? Apparently the success rate for AR-301 was so high that it pissed the right people off enough they had it shut down, I mean the stats that UBA called and took and turned into the DWR showed that they could probably add a few more units and a few more tags. Isn't this about the time the CATLITTER started flying MESS?? Aint this about the time that bowhunters had it too good and the hunt had to go?? Tell me MESS it sure as hell wasn't because bowhunters were taking elk in any numbers, it was because we suck so bad the DWR pissed the wrong people off by trying to add opportunity for bowhunters.

Roll this into the equation MESS, except for a handfull of units you are going to be hunting with the spike hunters and the regular LE archery tag holders. MAN this will get us to the 50% success rate real fricken quick won't it.

IT'S A FREAKING BOW YOU NO GOOD GARBAGE EATING FELINE
it ain't a weatherby.

Now I have had a great time debating issues with you
because you have a very good sense of humor and show the other side of the equation and I try to understand how a numbnuts like you could have the sense of humor you do.


THE ONLY ww THAT WILL BE ON THE NEXT THING SMOKIN TO ALTAMONT THE NEXT TIME HE GETS CALLED A LIAR. YOU CAN DROP ALL THE F BOMBS AND THINK I AM THE DUMBEST SUMBITCH YA EVER MET BUT DON'T QUESTION MY INTEGRITY IT'S UNCALLED FOR AND YOU ARE ABOVE THAT.
 
ww!!!

YOU'VE BLOWED A FRICKEN GASKET MAN!!!

I NEVER SAID YOU PERSONALLY BUT IT DOES HAPPEN & IT PISSES ME OFF!!!

BY THE WAY,THE CALLENDER GIRLS WILL BE GLAT TO SEE A TOURIST!!!

I'M NO BONIFIED BOW HUNTER,BUT IF I COULDN'T MAKE IT A 100% FILL MY TAG HUNT, I GOT TOO DAMN PICKY,RUT OR NO RUT HUNT!!!

DON'T TELL ME BOWHUNTERS DON'T HAVE ALOT OF PULL IN THIS STATE,I KNOW BETTER!!!

I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST BOW HUNTERS,I FEATHER FLIP MYSELF A BIT!!!

THE BOW HUNTER ON THE RIDGE WITH A RIFLE LAST WEEKEND,WELL YOU MIGHT SAY I'VE GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT IDIOT!!!

I'M NOT ARGUEING THE AR301!!!

I'M TELLING YOU RIGHT HERE & FRICKEN NOW I'M PROBABLY A PISS POOR BOW HUNTER & I'LL GUARANTEE YOU I CAN TAKE A BULL WITH A BOW IN AN L.E. UNIT,THATS WHAT I'M SAYING!!!

IF YOU TAKE THEM LONG LOBS WITHOUT TAKING A CLOSE LOOK AT THE BULL YOU NEED THE FINES LISTED ABOVE IMPOSED ON YOU,I'M TALKING EVERYBODY,NOT JUST YOU!!!

DRINK 3 MORE COOL PACKS & POST BACK LATER!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING THE DWR DOESN'T OWE YOU A PISSCUTTER BUT BY GOD I HOPE YOU GET ONE SOON,YOU'RE GOING TO EXPLODE SOON IF YOU DON'T!!!
 
BESSY you line up the honeys tell them a tourist would love to see them as well.

Probably a little pissed from covering most of skyline drive and having the deer outnumbered 10 to 1 by hunters in every various rig imaginable. I almost performed my first tune up but decided to report the fools instead. I hope driving up to the top of the ridge instead of walking the 300 yards was "cost effective" you three numbnuts.

Next year it's back to the honey hole of trout creek
at least there ain't 15,495 other bowhunters in the same fricken camp with me. Course there ain't a whole lot of deer either but I did hear of one sighting of a decent buck up there

THE ONLY ww LOOKING FORWARD TO MEETING THE CALENDAR GIRLS AND BESSY, HELL I'LL EVEN BUY.
 
ww!!!

YA,I HEAR YOU!!!

YOU TALKING TROUT CREEK OUT BY STRAWBERRY???

OR???

TROUT CREEK ON THE SOUTH SLOPE,I WAS AT THIS TROUT CREEK THIS MORNING,THERE AIN'T JACK!!!

AH,THE TUNE-UP!!!

WHAT I'D OF GAVE FOR MY .50!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHICH TROUT CREEK YOU'RE TALKING???
 
Gordy, the numbers you used are correct BUT, they were unreliable as I can personally vouch for. I drew this tag TWICE yet on my hunters history on the DWR site it shows me w/no harvest yet I took two 360+ bulls. My buddy drew twice and went home empty both times because he was looking for 350+ and ONLY had shots at 340 class bulls. If he was 'management hunting he would of tagged out the first day both years. I know where you're coming from but, alot of ar301 hunters were looking for more than a pisscutter type bull. I would guess 30-40% to be closer to reality. I might have come across a little harsh but I get frustrated when no matter what the DWR and these conservation groups propose the wailing and gnashing of teeth starts before they even no what the proposal STATES. Not all the 'management' tags will be archery but the bulk of them will. This WILL increase the number of TOTAL tags issued in Utah by quite a bit. This will improve the bull to cow ratio gradually as well as give people who are willing to go after 'lesser' bulls the INCREASED chance to do so. This is a good thing!!
 
So how will these 'management' tags work?? Will they be part of the current bonus point system or is the AR301 concept coming back? i.e. a guy on a waiting period could apply for a AR301 tag, no waiting periods? What's the plan with these tags?
 
Not all of the tags will go to bowhunters and, how they will be given out has not been finalized. They WONT being LE draw tags but will be different than ar301. This stuff will be worked out before its presented at the RAC's.
 
BESSY I speak of the Trout Creek north of the berry
used to be a pretty good deer hang out but
not anymore.

I usually take the last week of the elk hunt and spend up there chasing the trophy spikes, so I am pretty familiar
with the area.

So we are back to our point of contention just like it has been since day one. Which harvest statistics do we use??
How many bulls are bowhunters being expected to take??
Are the bowhunters going to be hunting every unit for these bucket bulls or just the units that are handpicked by whoever??

Like I said above this ain't all bad and I ABSOULTELY HAVE NO QUALMS WITH ANYONE AT UBA. Just please realize that this is a temporary fix at best and is just the special interests ( Bowhunters, SFW, RMEF, and the DWR ) managing wildlife by inches and entitlement rather than responsible wildlife management.

OK so I have whined and cryed in the opinion of some. So what would the dumb as a box of rocks bowhunter propose. you ain't going to like it but here goes.

1 No any weapon hunt during the rut give it to the bowhunters just like it is in every other state that has elk.

2 to accomplish #1 you have to do away with the legislated mandatory rifle deer opener, Hunts need to be moved and this hunk of legislation needs to be seriously revisited.

3 With the ability to move the rifle deer opener you would shift dates for the any weapon LE elk hunts to be held after the first season that uses any type of firearms. Probably Muzz
deer. lets get them bulls out of the rut and into the deep dark and nasty timber where they should be hunted. Know that hunts will be re arranged.

4 ALLOCATE TAGS BASED ON HARVEST PERCENTAGE!! If the method you choose to hunt with is more successful you will get fewer tags,
If you look at the LE model used by the state it is upside down
we constantly reduce the amount of tags because we in Utah feel it necessary to cater to the highest harvest rates first instead of looking to do the same thing by putting more hunters in the field using different methods of harvest to kill the same damn amount of bulls.

Now NOT ONE OF THESE PROPOSALS WILL EFFECT THE QUALITY OF THE BULLS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!!! It will do just the opposite
by bringing the love sick herd bulls back to their senses before bullets start flying. They will already be buried in the
deep canyons from the pressure of the previous hunts. Less opportunity for higher success rates to see and hear the bulls
makes it a harder hunt and will keep the big smart stinky bulls buried so people will work to get at them.

1 Good for the resource.

2 Provides MUCH MORE opportunity for all.

3 Wont hurt any of the inch mobbers animals.

Let it rip boys
 
>1 No any weapon hunt during
>the rut give it to
>the bowhunters just like it
>is in every other state
>that has elk.
>
>2 to accomplish #1 you have
>to do away with the
>legislated mandatory rifle deer opener,
>Hunts need to be moved
>and this hunk of legislation
>needs to be seriously revisited.
>
>
>3 With the ability to move
>the rifle deer opener you
>would shift dates for the
>any weapon LE elk hunts
>to be held after the
>first season that uses any
>type of firearms. Probably Muzz
>
>deer. lets get them bulls out
>of the rut and into
>the deep dark and nasty
>timber where they should be
>hunted. Know that hunts will
>be re arranged.

WW

Your proposal could work and we don't even need a special session with the legislature. Using the 2006 calendar this is how it could work.

Archery Deer August 19, to Sept 1, Muzz deer and Elk Sept. 2 thru Sept 11. Archery Elk Sept 12, thru Sept 22. Rifle Elk Sept 23, thru Oct 3. The general elk would follow.

In order to do this it would require the archery deer hunt to be shorter which I'm sure you would be against. Also keep in mind their are several of us that have been putting in on the any weapon hunts who also archery hunt. You will see alot of us switch to archery because of the dates and their goes your odds.
 
To increase bow hunter opportunity propose only wood,rock, and animal part archery gear. This would lower the 50+% harvest rate.
 
ww, I LOVE your ideas but, see no way of getting this passed. The rifle hunters(who out number archers/muzzy combined) would fight this more than fighting against more conservation tags. You admit that this is not a popular idea and this why it wont/cant happen right at this moment. You call the DWR a special interest group which I find interesting and confusing at the same time. Not the best way to get the DWR on your side.
I think that SLOWLY changing the hunts and SLOWLY proving that archers and muzzleloaders can get the job done as far as making/keeping our elk herds healthy. Then it would be easier to get the general public and the DWR to get the rifle hunts out of the peak of the rut. Someone mentioned we should learn from Colorado and I agree, they have very few if any(except limited private land) rifle hunts before Oct and archers get the ENTIRE month of SEPT and muzzys get a week+ in SEPT. I would think I had died and gone to heaven if Utah did that but, I see no way of this happening in todays world. I get to benefit as a guide having rifle tags in SEPT and still believe that getting them out of SEPT is good for hunters and elk.
 
KTC, Brotha I would hunt bulls in a pink loincloth with a freaking spork if that is what it took to get the harvest percentage point acrossed.

BART you have a great point in that this type of mentality will never ever pass. You also ask if I consider the DWR a special interest group. I would fricken hope they have a special interest in our states wildlife. They make proposals
to the RACs and Wildlife Board just like your group my group
SFW, RMEF, MDF, DU, TU, FNAWS, NWTF,UWF Damn I could go on all night.
I am not saying anything bad about any of these groups In fact I have volunteered for several of the above groups at one time or another but we are all out for our own interests and promoting our own views.
This being said who gives a rats freaking @$$ about the thing that matters most. WHAT IS GOOD FOR WILDLIFE?? Does managing for inches and the majority rule make sense for wildlife?? Does giving the highest success rate method of harvest the rut make sense?? Does giving rifle boys the rut cut into opportunity??
you bet your Ass it does.

simple fact of life AS LONG AS MAJORITY RULE AND MONEY TAKE THE PLACE OF RESPONSIBLE WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT ELK HUNTING IN UTAH WILL BE A ONCE IN A LIFETIME HUNT
 
ww!!!

I'M GONNA GIVE YOU A LESSON IN BIG STINKY BULL UNITS!!!

IF THE BULLS AIN'T SCREAMING WHEN THE L.E. BOW SEASON STARTS THEY DAMN SURE ARE TOWARDS THE END OF FEATHER FLIPPER SEASON!!!

I'VE SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES IN TWO DIFFERENT L.E. UNITS FOR YEARS!!!

DON'T ARGUE WITH ME!!!

DON'T TELL ME YOU WANT TO MOVE ARCHERY L.E. HUNTS INTO THE RUT,THEY'RE ALREADY THERE!!!

DON'T TELL ME ITS O.K. TO TAKE A STINKY BULL WITH A BOW & NOT A RIFLE!!!

THE L.E. UNITS WERE NEVER SET UP FOR PISSCUTTER SHOOTERS NOR THE OPPORTUNISTS!!!

YOU CAN SHOOT A PISSCUTTER EVERY YEAR IN A GENERAL OPEN UNIT!!!

YOU DON'T NEED AN L.E. PERMIT IN THE RUT HUNT TO BE AN OPPORTUNIST & TAKE THAT PISSCUTTER!!!

IF YOU DON'T SETTLE DOWN I'M GONNA SEND YOU A BOTTLE OF MIDOL & A 6 PACK OF BEER!!!

THE ONLY bobcat HOPEING ww MAKES THE WHOLE SYSTEM PERFECT WITH ALL HIS IDE'ERS!!!
 
Any legit means to maximize opportunity WITHOUT hurting quality is a good idea.

God I am glad I drew so I do not have to worry any more! :) As long as I do not screw up and need another shot at it.;-) Last year I saw some bad things coming down the pipe!
 
BESSY LMAO "DON'T ARGUE WITH ME " and you want to get me the
suds and midol??

BESSY you are correct the last couple of years the bulls were going the last few days of the hunt, I also woke up to about 8 inches of snow one of the last two years and last year it was just as cold as your INCH HUNTER FELINE HEART.

BESSY are you telling me it's as easy to smoke a 399 stinky with a bow as it is a rifle?? C'mon now even using Ty's inflated stats that is still double the rifle tags to get the same portion of harvest. Do you think for one second these numbers will ever fly.

How about this, why don't we just call a spade a spade
and make the LE elk hunts in Utah what they are, but nobody wants to admit to... ONCE IN A LIFETIME!!??

All of you INCH hunters should be totally behind this because after all you are the ones supporting the plan as it currently sits. The once in a lifetime should apply to all forms of hunting, bow muzz and rifle intercourse hunters. LETS NOT FORGET TO INCLUDE THE CONSERVATION TAGS IN THIS GROUP AS WELL.
Since we are being fair lets get r done, no more rich guys buying their way to the front of the line.

THE ONLY ww WAITING FOR AN ARGUMENT THAT HAS WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT AND NOT MONEY, RUT SHOOTS OR GROUPS IN MIND...
 
ww!!!

WHAT I'D LIKE YOU TO DO IS GO UP ON THE GENERAL HUNTING FORUM!!!

SCROLL DOWN TO THE THREAD THAT FOUNDER STARTED ABOUT IMPROVING ODDS!!!

YOU'LL FIND THAT I ALREADY SUGGESTED MAKING THE L.E. STINKY BULL PERMITS ONCE IN A LIFETIME!!!

CHECK IT OUT!!!

NOW ME & ktc DON'T ARGUE ALOT BUT SITTING WHERE HE'S SITTING HE MIGHT ARGUE WITH WHAT I JUST SAID!!!

I'M IN THIS A FEW YEARS SHY OF MAX POINTS!!!

I KNOW IF I EVER DRAW I'LL NEVER DRAW IT AGAIN!!!

OIL IS A-O.K. BY ME!!!

BUT BOY WAIT TILL THE OPPORTUNISTS THAT HAVE ALREADY DRAWED AN L.E. PERMIT HEAR THIS!!!

THE WHINNING LIKE BABIES IS ABOUT TO START!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT REALLY AN INCH HUNTER,BUT I'D LIKE TO TRY IT JUST ONCE!!!
 
I have said that I would love to see rifle hunters out of the rut because it's not that hard to get in on a 350+ bull on pert ner every unit. You will NOT hear me say that the archery hunt is out of the rut. I have consistently called quality bulls in from mid August thru mid November. It gets easier from the 8th or 9th thru the 25th of September but can be and is done several weeks before and after the peak of the rut.
I dont think you CAN call it once in a lifetime when every year in every unit people with zero or one point draw. I was lucky enough to draw ar301 twice but this has hurt my chances to draw a tag now. Yep I'm selfish and want a shot at a 380+ bull atleast once more in my life and, it will be with my stick flipper. I am also willing to WAIT so that WHEN I draw it will be worth my hard earned tag.
Like it or not money CANNOT be taken out of any scenerio where hunting is involved so lets forget about that one. Without groups how is anything going to get introduced or pushed through? WITH groups its hard to get a good plan pushed through, if you have several thousand seperate views who gets they're way? You, me, BESS, or the anti's? How can you say forget the majority? How are you proposing to get anything passed anywhere on anything?
Make consevation tags once in a lifetime and the average joe with kids will have to give up hunting because that IS who would bear the burden to make up the difference.
 
ktc


you need to get your facts straight.Last year the limited entry elk archery % was %64

397 hunters reprted hunting
180 bulls were reported killed by the archers.
78 BULLS WOUNDED AND NOT RECOVERD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WTF
258 DEAD ELK FROM ARCHERY

69 more wound loss with all other public tags and weapon types combined!!!

Only thing worse than a bull dieing of old age.(NOT!!!!) is an unqualified archer letting the air out of one and because they have 3+ weeks to hunt oh well.




Now for the argument that they don't die, the lucky ones do.
It will be nice to see a new archery group push that all archers pass shooting test like reg hunters safty.

Any weapon wound loss %.04
muzz %10 wound loss
preem %.o6 wound loss

Lets move alot more tags to arch,get alot of wana be, buy a bow the week of the hunt guys out there and watch the wound loss and oppertunity rise.

Wound loss = waste

I'll bet 78 bulls don't ever die of old age in ut.
Are we the archers going to ask for more tags before we clean up our dirty laundry.I know we can lie on our harvest reports next year.

How's the scouting going??seen any 380 management pisscutters??

pm me
 
Some of you may remember back in mid 80s. The Bumblebee/Browse units had been closed for several years to deer hunting. The deer there were unbelievable. They opened it up as a draw for a few years then just opened it up for the taking. Shortly after this area was the first to be put to a 5 day hunt in the southern region. These deer were taken by all weapon types.

This thread has turned into a bow vs rifle dispute. It doesn't matter what weapon is used to take an elk with has long as the quality is maintained. Some say take the rifle out of the rut. Sure thats an option. Then the rest will say take all hunts out of the rut.

Also there is more then one type of quality at stake. I personally like the fact that there are LE hunts that you can go on and not run into hunters everywhere you go. Sure we can give out 5000 tags next year but we have already had one discussion on here about who get to put their tree stand where and when and above what water hole.
 
James funny you bring up a new group doing something
about educating the people that bowhunt.

BOU met with Lenny Mike and RaLynne yesterday about
this very thing. As a RAC member you will see
what is coming up probably during the Jan - Feb time frame.

On to the wounding, I could write a survey that would cut those numbers by two thirds and probably raise the other
numbers by two thirds. We all won't hike across a canyon to look for blood every time we shoot. You know as well as I do
these numbers are subjective. Bowhunters are close enough that they will at least look for their arrows. The question
on the survey should read did you look for blood after every shot or did you keep chasing the bull without doing this
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-23-06 AT 06:54PM (MST)[p] James sorry I was at work when I read your above post
about the wounding and really haven't had time to do it justice
with a reply all day.

Bowhunters will wound and lose game FACT OF LIFE. MUZZ HUNTERS WILL WOUND AND LOSE GAME FACT OF LIFE. RIFLE HUNTERS HAVE NEVER EVER WOUNDED AND LOST AN ANIMAL IN THE HISTORY
OF TIME. When a bowhunter takes a shot he is going to walk to the spot where the animal was at when the shot was taken
hopefully the arrow will be found and a determination of what kind of hit will be told by alot of what the arrow shows.

I can't speak for all bowhunters but any responsible bowhunter wouldn't shoot at an elk past about 40 yards under
normal conditions. (JUST LIKE RIFLE GUYS DONT SPRAY AND PRAY FROM 400 YARDS PLUS) Lets give you the benefit of the doubt and say that a bowhunter shoots at an elk in the 50 yard area, he finds his arrow and there is dark blood on it. This is a wounded animal in your definition. Even though the arrow
has busted the skin enough to get it bloody and the bull will have one hell of a scar and a PH.D of hunters he will probably live. Now a different bowhunter finds his arrow and the sign is green, dark karo syrup, or bubbly pink yeah this bull is
more than likely going to die.

OK lets get into the perfection of the modern smokless firearm. Most guys are never to far for the good ole 30-378 or the ever faithful 300 win mag. Both guns will drop a deer at
unspeakable distances. WE AIN'T HUNTING DEER FELLAS there is one hell of a bit of difference in a big old BESSY 401 bull and a big four point buck. Now you got at least 3 cartridges in the mags and 5 in the non mag calibers. ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME THAT AS MANY RIFLE HUNTERS ARE GOING TO FOLLOW EVERY SHOT TO THE SAME EXTENT THAT A BOWHUNTER LOOKING FOR AN ARROW WILL DO EVERY TIME?? Most of the guys couldn't tell you were the shots in between their first and last were even taken on the
mountain. Get everybody that shoots anything that goes bang to following up EVERY FREAKING SHOT THEY TAKE AND THEN GET BACK TO ME WITH THE FINDINGS. I've seen enough of the Wasatch Unit cow hunts to be BULLS%!TTED by someone that should know better

THE ONLY ww THAT COULD SURE AS HELL WRITE A HARVEST / WOUNDING REPORT TO MAKE IT READ WHAT EVER THE HELL I WANT IT TO READ
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-23-06 AT 07:59PM (MST)[p]338 Boy has hit it spot on, perfect.

Does anyone believe that a bull elk which has 3 or 4, 1-2 inch razors rip thru his body will go on and recover most of the time. I agree that some rifle hunters won't know of the hit, but most muzzleloaders would look and their number is substantialy lower than the archery hit rate. Even if you double the rifle hit rate you only get a .8% of hit. No where near the 20% hit rate of archers.

There are lots more interesting facts about the Archery debate, but we better keep them close to the vest until the next archery give away is proposed.
 
Responsible hunters work very hard to reduce the chance of a wounding loss. It happens. The shooting test during hunter saftey does in no way replicate what goes on in the feild under all the issues of preparing to and taking a shot on game. Even the best marksmen and seasoned hunter can experience wounding an animal because they are shooting at "live" game. If enough time is spent in the feild it can happen. The measure of the hunter is what happens after the mishap.

It bothers me that someone will pick up a new weapon and go in the feild before using it in even range situation that can teach them it's capabilities and teach them thier limitations but they do. I did, and unless I miss my guess....so did you. Experience can be a painful teacher for all involved but folk have to start somewhere, it is america. I was one of those "nasty opportunists at the ripe old age of 17" who found out you could hunt elk without waiting to draw in my home state if I used a bow...so I did. I practiced up against my uncles barn and can claim that I could hit the broadside of it. ButI was young on experience, did my best with what I knew, and thought I had placed a good arrow. Hours of searching and my experienced mentor felt that we'd done enough. The next year he rifle killed the bull and game me back part of my shaft and broadhead. The bull showed no ill signs nor cartlege around the arrow. His son killed a bull just last season that was packing an arrow embedded in bone and showed no gimp. The last deer I cut up was packing a .22 caliber slug and the placement told me it had come from some distance to stay where it did, how it did. So I don't know if anyone knows how many die. I have the DWR's 2005 limited entry harvest survey results. I question it because I have not seen the questions. Bowhunters seem to think that any hit is an accomplishment and love to tell the story. Rifle hunters won't admit it because they look like they can't shoot.

I have over 37 years of hunting experience using all the tools. I prefer some types of hunting over others. I have come to enjoy the ones most that offer the largest degree of fair chase as it pertains to the ability of the animal to escape. That may mean that it is a rifle hunt with many challenges of weather or terrain to me, that affords the animal fair chase. If I were to take a bow and arrow on the same hunt there is no doubt the odds for the animal to escape would increase.

Regardless of what we prefer the fact is...Selfbows (those whittled from a tree by hand) I have found fairly unpleasant and very difficult to shoot. My hat goes off to those who learn and choose to hunt with it. If you send out ten guy's to find an elk, dial him in with all the gizmo's and crack him at 400, that is the other end of the scale. No one ever asks the elk but I think if they had their druthers they'd rather be chased by the guy carrying the simple stick.
 
ktc

the only 338boy posting the harvest reports given to the elk committee from dwr and not made up on my own to look the way I want.

If I wait 20 years to hunt a stinky 444 and If I spray and pray I'm off to look for blood.But because there is a stinky behind every tree ,why would I need to shoot 600 yds anyway?

Gordy good luck on changing the hunter safty regs.

I talked with a bow hunter on skyline drive tonight, said he missed a 36" buck opening at 99 yards.

bessy I GOT GPS INFO ON THIS ONE.
 
Wow, these Utah elk threads get some serious attention.

Gordy,

I will not tell you to blow it out your butt.;-) This the more kind ktc. You make some arguments, but infortunately I do not agree with you. I think your numbers are very deflated.

The archery success is not 15%. Maybe general season, but not LE units or AR-301. A guy here posted the recorded data and it is above 50%. This was from the DWR website, the very folks you want to manage our herds.

Do you think that beating the archery drum like you do is fair to all? If 50% of the people hunt with a rifle don't you think allocating 50% of the tags to those folks is fair? You need to remember that people hunt with different weapons for different reasons and we cannot go and overflow the archery hunts with tags because they do not kill as much right? They do kill stuff.

As far as 400 bulls they do exist. This is a great thing right? To have the lucky less than 1% get one is a great thing. They are not all over and in 2 years on an LE I have yet to see one. Maybe one 380 but probably not even that.

You like to speak of 30-378's and 1000 yard shots. Do you know how hard that would be to hit an elk at 1000 yards? It would be like a 150 yard archery shot. It is possible but not realistic. I have heard of quite a few deer being shot at 100 yards with a bow. So I guess archers can spray and pray too. Same goes for a muzz ant 250 yards. People can do it and lots try.

I used to bow hunt and had lots of fun doing it. I do know a little about it and it was not as hard as you make it out to be. Harder than a rifle for sure, but each weapon has its challenges due to people, weather, equipment, or whatever.

I am out of here to go kill my 400 bull! Well, I can only pray cuz it probably 99% sure it will not happen. I will try though and I know they exist some place because we see a few every year. I hope I do not disappoint by getting only a 350 but realistically these are what people get when they give an effort. This is being treated as OIL. It is just how it is and I am fortunate to get this chance. When I pull the trigger it is 90% or so I will never go again. Utah LE elk is over and done for good. It is just how it is and other people are waiting in line to go. Rifle, bow, and muzz hunters.
 
Ok now I'm offended. Please folks, do not call someone who lobs an arrow 99 yards at a live animal a bowhunter! Sometimes I participate in bowhunting, and it doesn't resemble that definition. Those are target archers in the woods. The goal of any "hunter" IMO should be to see how close you can get before you kill it, not how far away can you hit it.

I'd also be offended if you called a "spray and prayer" (funny title, sad, but funny) a rifle hunter. They are "shooters" (One of the stages in the development of a sportsman according to the Utah Hunter education manual anyway). Hopefully both those type of participants are the minority. If someone is on a learning curve, then I can have tollerance. It's the brash, I can, so I will mentality when a person is capable of better that we should all not condone. Advertizers don't help us in those regaurds, so maybe we are some what influence with their Buy all these things, stuff em in the pack, or over the shoulder and they will get er done fer ya" adds. (GPS coordinates, leap to mind hmmmm.) The first deer that hopped out under the barrel of my open sighted 30-30 when I was fresh on the educational curve at the ripe old age of 14, according to my father, resembled a fire fight.

What is it about the size of antlers that seems to bring out the worst of us in our attempt to be sportsmen. When I teach bowhunter education there is a part about shot selection. It shows deer standing at certain angles. It gives you some equipment parameters and yardages to take into consideration. Class members come up and put a dot on where they would aim to hit the deer in the highest percentage area to attempt to assure the cleanest kill. You give them the option to pass if they don't like the angles or obsticles. Then you go around the class and they talk about why they chose to either take or pass on the shot. I like to take a shot they all passed on and draw big antlers on it and then ask if they changed thier minds? We usually get quite a conversation going. Yeah big antlers look cool rockin back and forth or stickin up out of the brush. But they don't eat well at all. They take up alot of wall space, put the horse at risk, and you have another place to dust.

I've had one of the limited entry tags when you could bowhunt and then use a rifle.(I know your anticipation)I chased em all bow season (chased) and the one I'd been chasing vanished at the end of the bowseason. He showed up during the gun hunt. The 140 grain boat tail slipped past all the cows eyes and noses, over top of 170 yards of cover, and left him in a heap.

After reading all the posts I think what those who understand the essence of bowhunting are saying is...that you can get maximum recreation our of the resource before you remove that particular resource from the pool. Since there isn't enough "stinky bulls" (brain dead) bulls for everyones wall who wants one (Not sure I could have killed the one I did with a gun had he not had cows on the mind) it seems like chasing them with the most challenging hunting tool first will ensure more opportunity for the majority of hunters. We shouldn't get in our heads that if you get a tag you should at all cost be allowed a bull. The tag only allows you to kill a bull should the occassion arise. If you want to reduce the bowhunter harvest then add a bunch of them with their commotion and stink to the woods and see how difficult it becomes to take a bull when it becomes a race to the bugle and they all are trying to get in range. It can't work that way with the tools that go bang because of the range capabilities. Racing till you see one with a gun often negates being careful with sight, sound and scent. But you can manipulate the season so when the mature bulls go off from the cows into the huants and holes to put on weight for the winter more people can have tags because of the challenges that creates for them. The seasons could most likely be longer which could be a plus with the time challenges of life.

Idaho has been running those stratagies in a unit I hunt that is about the size of the Manti's for the last few years now. It has worked so well that they are having to get real agressive with cow tags. In order to help sustain the range, heard health and also test to see if reducing elk numbers will help the deer. (Idaho Mule Deer Initiative)
 
KTC I wish you all the luck in the world my friend
and I agree with you about the distacnces involved in
shooting every thing that could be used to take an elk down.

The problem arises when some people come on MM and point out that a certain weapon is worthless because of a couple of experiences. Just like you said there are all types of animals that will be wounded and lost by all weapon types. James pointed out the wounding stats from the DWR. I pointed out a circumstance where I watched a group of elk hunters basically flock shoot at a herd of cow elk. Point is and James hit it right on the head we have slobs that use every type of weapon.
I will get very defensive when all of the sudden it is just bowhunters doing all of the wounding and every other form of hunting is perfect, it aint so. My point is you can't accurately compare the two types of weapons the way these surveys are written.

We both know the splits under the current plan all I am asking for is to base these splits on harvest percentages
which they currently do not do at this time. Even using the
50% success rate that is still two LE tags for every buck or bull bowhunters will harvest.Rifle success is at the point that it is almost a 1 to 1 allocation system.

Good luck and I hope the bull of you dreams somehow makes it
to your crosshairs
 

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