The decline of the trophy mule deer

3

30inchbucks

Active Member
Messages
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Before you read this keep in mind I've experienced harrassment taking place on our mule deer herds especially in the desert country of limited entry units in both Utah and Arizona. Believe me it's a highly unethical practice of taking a number of trophy animals out of the herds. Limits do need to be set in order to preserve our resource for years to come. On another forum the suggestion was made to set these limitations on limited entry trophy hunting units only. I'm looking for your thoughts as hunters and other ideas to solve problems of technological advances. Think about this, What's next a heat seeking locator? What's your definition of a trophy buck? Please read and enjoy.

Where are all the big bucks? The fish and game departments will blame it on the drought, predators, or other excuses and leave out the truth. Years ago, I can remember archery hunting with my Dad and little brother looking across a big canyon and seeing anywhere from 10 to 15 mature bucks, all sporting huge racks. We would hike all day just to get into the area to hunt them. We never harvested any of those bucks, but every year we had great stories to tell about the one?s that got away. Now in the same area there are 4-wheeler trails all over and the bucks are gone. Yesterdays hunter had to hike or use horse to get into these areas to find the trophy class bucks. Today these areas are overrun by 4-wheelers and now chute planes. A chute plane is an aircraft that holds 1 to 2 passengers and is able to hover at slow speeds. It uses a parachute for wings, a light-duty engine for power, and is also referred to as an ultralite. They are becoming more and more popular especially among the guides. The bucks are running out of places to hide and the truth of the matter is they can't hide anymore.
The idea of a trophy buck has also changed over the years. A trophy of yesterday is one that was worked for personally with many hours of preseason scouting and then getting lucky enough during the hunt to harvest the trophy class animal. Today the trophy is still one that is worked for, however, there are those that think paying thousands of dollars for a tag and guide for one is still a trophy. Magazines have pictures of huge bucks and stories behind them but they are leaving out the gruesome details. Most of these bucks were purchased with the almighty dollar. Greed is slowly destroying our deer herds.
The fish and game departments of many different states have closed areas down and have made them limited entry units. These areas are supposed to create better opportunities for hunters to harvest mature trophy class animals. But these areas are creating moneymaking opportunities for the guides, landowners, and even the fish and game (Governor Tags). These landowner, conservation, and governor tags are being sold to the rich for prices ranging from four to one hundred thousand dollars! The rich are able to hunt these units every year at the prime times and the rest of us are being left out. The average hunter is lucky to hunt these areas once every ten years and is lucky to find a trophy class animal that hasn't already been pinpointed by guides, landowners, or someone else trying to make a quick buck. With all this money pressure out there to find and locate these big bucks, guides are utilizing every resource they can get their hands on to aid in the process. This is where the chute plane comes into play as a major contributor to eliminating the big bucks.
The desert country of Southern Utah and Northern Arizona has in the past been a trophy mule deer Mecca. The huge country once offered plenty of hiding ground for mule deer to grow huge antlers and escape the average hunter. Chute planes are able to hover just barely over the treetops at slow speeds and there is nothing that can't be found. It is impossible for the deer to hide from them. Currently, these planes can be used until 48 hours before the hunt opens. With a plane and a good GPS these deer don't have a chance. These big bucks are harassed all year long and it's only a matter of time before a good area is wiped out. Affected by this activity is the famed Paunsagunt in Southern Utah, an area that is known for big bucks is now struggling. What once was, is now gone. Every year this unit has produced big bucks and it still does, but today there are very few that get that opportunity. This year 2003 out of 127 public rifle tags there was one buck known of taken that was 30-inches plus. The magazines and books that come out will claim different and show pictures of big bucks taken, but what they don't tell is that the hunter paid big money to harvest it and chute planes were used to locate it. Another area that is known for big bucks is the remote area of the Arizona Strip in Northern Arizona. It is an area that still holds big bucks and guides have moved into the area in the last few years because the other areas have been cleaned out. The strip is in trouble because it will not be able to sustain that kind of pressure. It is similar to the Henry Mountains of Southern Utah where there are very few deer; it took only two years to clean that area out.
There is nothing wrong with guides trying to make an honest living or landowners that need to be compensated for their losses, but things have gotten way out of hand. There needs to be limits set or big bucks will be a thing of the past. The bottom line is that where these big bucks used to hide they can't hide anymore. Just like 4-wheelers, chute planes are becoming more and more popular. What if every hunter that had a 4-wheeler also had a chute plane? If this happens think about this, ?In the beginning God created everything including big bucks, then he created man and they bought chute planes, in the end there was nothing!? We can choose to do one of three things. One, sit back and do nothing or let these wildlife organizations suck our money and do nothing. Two, buy us a chute plane and join them in the task of killing everything. Three, organize as a group the largest ever and petition our legislators, local RAC members, and wildlife board members to change the laws in order to save our valuable resource.
Therefore, we must restrict the operation of chute planes or any other aircraft that hovers at any time of the year that are used to locate or harass any big game animal. Currently the law restricts the use only during the hunt and 48 hours before the hunt opens. By restricting use during any time of the year, everyone would be on a more equal playing field and hard work along with traditional ground methods would be used to locate. The animals could then hide creating the opportunities that we once had. Another thing we can do at a more personal level is not support these activities by purchasing their products. Names will not be mentioned but a lot of them are involved with creating videotapes, books, and magazines. It is tempting to have a look but think about what they are doing. There are plenty of products out there that are good and support the ethical hunter. They might not be as extravagant or loaded with huge racks, but you can have a clear conscience when purchasing them. We?re not after your money; all we're after is your support in order to change what is happening. We need the support of every ethical hunter out there both young and old. All we need is a statement that reads like this, ?I am in full support of amending the law to make it unlawful for any person to use chute planes or any other aircraft that hovers at any time of the year, in order to locate, observe, or harass any big game animal or protected wildlife? along with your name and full address. If every ethical hunter out there would support this we would have the means to get it passed. Please make your voice heard using the contact information below:




Utah Division of Wildlife Resources (www.wildlife.utah.gov)
Regional Advisory Councils-Chairs

Ernie Perkins, Northern Region
[email protected]
3087 Maxine Drive
Layton, UT 84040-7659
801-544-5123
801-479-4010 facsimile

Clay Hamann, Northeastern Region
[email protected]
1673 N 3500 W
Vernal, UT 84078-9736

Ed Kent, Central Region
[email protected]
611 East Taylor Lane
Murray, UT 84107

##### Manus, Southeastern Region
[email protected]
1384 W 300 N
Price, UT 84501

Gregg McGregor, Southern Region
[email protected]
1683 Snow Canyon Dr.
Santa Clara, UT 84765

Utah Legislator Contact Information

http://se15.utahsenate.org/perl/spage/roster2003.pl
http://www.le.state.ut.us/house/members2003/membertablel.asp

Arizona Game and Fish Department

Main Office-Phoenix
2221 W Greenway Rd.
Phoenix, AZ 85023-4399
602-942-3000
[email protected]

Arizona Legislator Contact Information

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/members/senate.htm

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Do paraplanes really hover? What is your definition of slow speed? How fast do these chute planes travel or hover? If you spot a trophy buck from a comfortable 4WD Dodge 48 hours before the season starts, should that be a no no? How many chute planes on a good day, do you see flying in the one million square mile AZ Strip? Thanks for your answers.
 
30inch I am completely behind you on this subject. I have only hunted for 5 years and I didn't back when there were big bucks everywhere but my father and uncles did and I have heard stories and I wish that it was back that way. Hunters are becoming very unethical in their pursuit of trophy mule deer. Don't get me wrong there are also many that do it in a fair manner. Our fish and Game Department here in Utah, I feel, has let hunting in this state chaotic. They allow many things such as chute planes to be used in pursuit. And you are correct, GPS along with any aircraft can result in easy hunting. Where in this process could anyone feel any accomplishment for taking a trophy animal? I for one wouldn't feel any accomplishment. I have a friend that lives here in Northern Utah. Last year on the opening day of the general hunt a helicopter was flown to the top of this area in which they were hunting, the proceeded to shoot a large mule deer buck and took it out on the helicopter. This makes me furious. You would THINK that the fish and game would have done something about it. I know she was not the only person up there that day and I know they were called but what did they do? NOTHING! I mean how many helicopters can there be out there that can be used that day to take a deer. I just feel our fish and game department does nothing. I mean that's my two sense. But I"m all behind you 30inchbuck. I am glad that someone stands up for our hunting rights, I hope we all can follow behind him.

love2hunt16
 
I have to disagree with your reasons behind the decline of mulies. Chute planes and 4-wheelers are not to blame. In my opinion, it is predation, poaching and bad game management. Seems like game depts in many western states have managed for elk and turned a blind eye to mulies. Elks herds in west have seen significant increases in the past few years while muley numbers have gone down. The price of a non resident elk license here in NM exceeds $700 in some units. In a sense, elk have become the "cash crop" for many game depts. and that is what they manage for. This combined with predation and poaching is what is causing the decline in muley numbers.
-Raptor
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-03 AT 02:40PM (MST)[p] While we are at it maybe we could protest scopes for rifles, or possibly even the rifles themselves that will shoot 400+ yards. Maybe we should protest optics that will allow us to see for thousands of yards and have such wonderful light gathering capabilities that they can literally add 30 minutes to each day in the field. What about Gore-Tex? Damn the Gore-Tex for keeping the lazy hunters on 4-wheelers dry, lets outlaw that as well! My grandfather did not have waterproof boots with airbob soles when he was growing up and there were a ton of 30" bucks back then! Damn evolution and technological advances, its all ruining deer hunting! My real problem however is with the damn Elk! You see, Mule Deer are specialists and Elk are opportunists according to Dr. Valerius Geist and he goes on to state in his book that while Elk have a much more varied diet, the first thing they eat is what the Mule Deer thrives on thus moving the mule deer out of the country. Lets just kill all of the elk and while we are at it, maybe we could just burn all of the homes that are being developed in prime wintering grounds that are so crucial for maintaining a healthy deer herd. I guarantee its the same liberal SOBs that want to outlaw hunting that are destroying all of the prime habitat. The devil of the hunting world though are the guys that charge outragous amounts of money to kill "trophy" mule deer. I know, I know, they are killing giant, older age class bucks that have contributed heavily to the gene pool but I cant afford it and it just pisses me off.
I hope that you notice the "hint" of sarcasm on the above paragraph. If a guy locates a deer with a chute plane well before the season and hunts that particular deer all year, do you honestly think he is the one that is ruining hunting for us? I seriously doubt it. I would much rather someone find a deer that is in all probability an older age class deer with giant antlers and hunt that deer than have a bunch of weekend warriors killing every year and a half old forked horn that may have had the potential to be a tremendous deer in the future. I hate the fact that when a hunter forks out 100K+ of his money to hunt the best units in the best times fellow hunters chastise them and hate them for having "special priveleges" and not thanking them for all of the money they just spent for the conservation and preservation of the animals we all love to hunt. Its so much easier to place the blame on others than it is to look in the mirror and ask, "what can I do to help?". I am just as guilty as the next guy, I should do more, and intend to do more but I am human and procrastinate just as much as the next guy.

There are many more things than 4 wheelers and chute planes that are contributing to the demise of the mule deer, in fact, in the whole scheme of things I believe that they are a very minor problem. I have a secret I will let everybody in on, ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!! The states are managing for quantity and not quality, hunters generate revenue for these small communities out west where these giant deer you talk about live, they also generate BILLIONS of dollars every year for the states out west. What about asking UT and AZ to cut the tags back by half but double the cost of the permit? Oh my god, I just pissed off thousands of people off because I am actually implying that we should make it even more expensive than it already is thus making it more of a rich mans sport and putting it even more out of reach for the "working class man". It would all even out in the long run, instead of hunting every year you might hunt every other year therefore spending the same amout of money on permits. It would also allow the deer in the ares you hunt to get some age on them. Hell, I dont know what the answers are, this is just a suggestion but dont just whine about the problem, come up with the solution. I have found over the years that the ones doing the most complaining are the guys that are too lazy to get off their butts and actually hunt, I love it when guys (and there are a few on this site)go out andd hunt this "horrible" country and continue to harvest mature mule deer by not complaining and hunting hard!

Again, unless we make everyone hunt with open sighted rifles while wearing only wool clothes and non waterproof boots and carrying foggy old 1950 style binoculars and hunting on foot we should focus on the solution and not the problem.

Drummond Lindsey
 
30inchbucks makes a lot of valid points in his post. I do not know much about chute planes, but I will take his word that they are being used. How many 30 inch bucks are running around in the Arizona Strip and Utah areas?? Probably not too many, so even if there are only just a few of these flying around, it can have a devastating effect. The bigger point here is the effect technology is having on mule deer hunting. It is not only chute planes and four wheelers, but it is also better optics, better rifles, better 4 wheel drive pu, etc, etc. I totally agree with outlawing chute planes and 4 wheelers, but this won't solve the problem in its entirety. Also, as 30inch stated, the Wildlife Divisions of the states have comlpletely "taken their eye off the ball". All we ever hear from them is habitat, habitat, habitat. But, in the vast majority of hunting areas in the West, habitat is just fine. Yes, in some areas critical winter range areas have been developed, but this is still a minority of areas. The game depts use habitat as an excuse because it is a convenient scapegoat. It is the big, bad developers who are causing all of the problems!!! But, the reality is that with todays more sophisticated technology, hunters are just more efficient at finding and killing mule deer because mule deer are mostly an open country animal. Most devastating is the complete lack of mature animals on public land. It is no coincidence that most mature mule deer are now shot on private ground where access is strictly controlled. There are several things that need to be done to help mule deer. 1. Shut down roads; a few roads to get general access to areas is fine. 2. Strictly enforce four-wheelers so that they stay only on roads; there needs to be draconian fines associated with taking a four wheeler off road so people won't do it. And chute planes??? Give me a break, that should be completely outlawed. 3. All mule deer hunting areas need to be special draw and be controlled with equal chance( or preference point system) to all who apply. These govenerner tags, sportsmens tags, etc are BS. The mule deer herds need to be managed so that there is an appropriate amount of mature animals in each herd; not just a lot of "harvest opporunities".

As hunters, we need to accept the fact that in the future, it can't be like it has been in the past. There will have to be restrictions on almost all mule deer hunting. The effect of technology cannot be understated. Even forums like MM contribute to it because it is fairly easy to find the best hunting areas in the West now, and what happens is that everybody and their dog is there in a few years. Nowhere stays a "secret" for very long. You can get 90% of your hunt done from your computer now. I know, I have done it. I have consistently hunted different areas, over different states, the last few years and have found mature bucks, even though I have never hunted there before. Proficient mule deer hunters can read MM, look at harvest reports, hire hunting information services and know what to look for in Topo maps to get themselves very close to the quality bucks. We can travel farther and stay warmer in our PU, we can see farther with our Zeiss spotting scopes, and we can shoot farther with our Leupold rifle scopes and baliistic tip, handloaded shells and hike further with our Goretex clothes. It really is a simple equation: we can either accept mule deer hunting as it is now, or accept the fact that we need to have strict controls on it. We are just too good at what we do. Crying habitat is just putting your head in the sand.

muleyguy
 
I'm not saying that this is the only reason that our deer herd is in the shape that it is in, but it is a part of it. Obviously drought, habitat loss, and predators are to blame too, but are you telling me that technology has nothing to do with it! I'm talking about ethics and fair chase here! Why don't you just go down and buy yourselves a heat seeking locating device! There has to be some kind of limitations on what is used to locate animals or things are going to get way out of hand. At first, there was foot and horse, then there was just a motorcycle, then the 3 wheeler, then the 4 wheeler, two-way radios, GPS, and now chute planes. What's next? Don't you think access has something to do with it? How many of you have hiked all day and get into an area that you think nobody is around and then you run into a 4-wheeler parked in the area where there are no roads? I have and the chute plane problem hasn't spread into all areas yet. It as far as I can tell is centralized in the trophy deer units in the desert country of Southern Utah and Northern Arizona. I'm not talking about putting limits on things we can't do anything about for example rifles with scopes or 4-wheelers. But we can limit certain things that happen in the future like chute planes. It's not a widespread problem currently, but it will be. It seems like every weekend lately when I've been out on the Arizona strip I've seen someone out there flying. I know who they are, but I'm not going to mention any names. They know themselves it's unethical but they do it any way because it's legal and big money is involved. If you don't think it is a problem then just wait until you draw one of those units and your in competition with their chute plane or you suddenly find there is nothing left like on the Paunsagunt, then maybe you'll understand what I'm talking about!
 
Hunts "private property" in Mexico dont make it so obvious that you make a living off the wealthy. LOL
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-03 AT 04:22PM (MST)[p]Drumm,

That's one of the best, come back posts I've ever read on here...

Too bad it's true.

And while we're at it, lets just outlaw the 4 wheeler manufacturers from producing 4 wheelers, cause numb nuts can handle riding them ethically! And this goes for guns too. Because there's a bunch of idiots out there that use them to shoot other people...
 
Damn, you guys sure have you're problems down there. I don't know what you guys are doing but it sounds like there ain't no big bucks left. Chute planes - The Real Decline of Monster Bucks. That must be it. We ain't got no chute planes up here and we have more monsters roaming the hills than ever before. I see more Trophy bucks now than my ol' man ever did. Hey, wait a minute, there weren't no chute planes in his day either. What's up? More Booners are being taken up here than ever were in the good ol' days. Over 50 in the last ten years alone. And you guys can't cry predators as the reason you ain't got no big bucks cause we sure have tons of predators. Both Wolves and Cougars. Their numbers are a hell of a lot higher now than back in my ol' man's day too. We've got ATV's and jet boats and we've got high powered rifles and high powered optics. We've got goretex boots and fancy polyblend underwear. We've got all this and our bucks still keep on growing. What's happening down there that isn't happening here? I'll tell ya this, chute planes ain't the answer. The real reason you ain't got no big bucks left is easy, "Too Many Hunters!!!". I've hunted non-stop since the begginning of Sept and you know how many hunters I've seen in my hidey holes? None! Zip! Zero!
I hope you can see that my post is a little on the sarcastic side. There are still big bucks left down there, they're just hiding better. LOL!
 
How can chute planes be the problem? I've never seen chute planes in the areas I hunt, yet the deer numbers are down too? Are the chute planes flying in AZ or UT affecting the mulie herd in NM? I think not. Point I'm trying to make is that mule deer numbers are down in the west in general. Chute planes and 4 wheelers are not the problem. Rich guys paying big $$ for trophy bucks are not the problem either. Game and habitat management is the problem. Game depts have to focus more on deer as opposed to other game animals and at the same time not lose money.
-Raptor
 
Muleyguy,
Very well said. You made some very intelligent comments about what technology is doing. Technology is ok but we just need to set limitations on how we use it. People need to understand that in order to improve the deer herd, there need to be some sacrafices involved or we can just accept that all we are going to see from now on is the Utah Trophy. And what I mean by that is the 1x2's are going to be the majority of the herd even in the trophy areas. The disease is spreading fast. The only way to stop it is by setting limitations. I hunted the Paunsagunt this year for the first time after 18 years of putting in. You talk about a joke! I'm a hard hunter and I was all over that place starting in June. The gene pool is almost gone. The big bucks are few. I heard of 2 rumors down there that I do not like. One was about a big buck killed on the archery hunt that was on private land and was surrounded by 5 guides all packing radios. Another on Alton where it came into a hay field and the guide closed the gate on it. Why don't we just cage them up, grow them, and then sell them to the highest bidder. Like you said, all you hear is Habitat, Habitat, Predators, Predators. Haven't we been focusing on that long enough. Since about 96 they have been focusing more on habitat improvement and do any of you see any difference? That is about 7 years. How long does it take to grow a mature buck again? I thought it was 5 years. I don't know about you but I'm still seeing more 1x2's on the general hunt than anything else. Let's focus on things that will make more of an impact like managing the herd for a more mature buck population instead of just numbers. Also as stated above technology needs to be managed also so the breeding stock has somewhere to hide. I could go on and on but I won't.
 
There is no decline in trophy mule deer. This is one of the best years I've seen in recent memory. Check out the photo gallery.
 
Again, I'll state it again that chute planes may not be a problem in your area. But just check out the Paunsagunt! If you think a 20 inch 3x3 or 4x4 is a trophy then you better put in for there because that is all your going to see on public land. Oh, there might be a few that will tell you different but I'm here to tell you that it just plain sucks! Now they've moved into Arizona and like I said above I'll give it about 5 years! The chute planes are currently a problem on the trophy units only, because of the unethical guides that are flying them. Give it a few years and everyone will have one!
 
BC hits it on the head. To many people. The good old days? They were not that good. I new a great guide who was born and raised in Star Valley Wy. Region G. He he said he was 17 before he saw his first mule deer. When I first hunted with him in 77 it was great. Now you see more people than deer. The hunting is still good for those in know. I believe livestock on the forest and winter grounds is the worst next to people. We need to stop subsidizing livestock and get them off the forest, period!
 
BCBOY and BLUEOAK hit the nail on the head. There are way to many hunters each year. Each State should limit the number of hunters allowed to hunt any one area each year. I also agree that 4 wheelers (quads) should be strictly controlled and not let off the main access roads. On most BLM land it's open for quads to roam freely, chasing the deer to heck and back.
Snow mobiles should also be monitored and controlled. While hunting in Montana several years ago, I hiked through about 18" of snow to the top of my favorite mountain just to watch several guides on snow mobiles chasing a herd of Elk right towards there customers. It was a slaughter and I was really upset.
Unfortunately, alot of these things will never happen because of the almighty dollar.
Another option is to close each area every other year to all hunting but alternate the area so hunters can still apply to hunt each year.
Just my 2 cents.
Ed
 
Well too many hunters is NOT the porblem here in Utah. We used to have 250,000 deer hunters and a 30% success rate = 80,000+ bucks harvested. 9 years ago the hunter numbers were reduced to 90,000 and we still have 30% harvest = 30,000 bucks killed.

I agree that ATV use into areas has drastically impacted mature buck numbers in a Negative way. Chute planes are a definate problem not only in Southern UT, but right here in central Utah also. Easy to spot game from above, that is why F&G agencies do their population counts from the Air. Not that hard to understand.

The Forest Service in the Wasatch Cache National forest which emcompasses land in Northern Utah and Western Wyoming is considering a ban on ATV use during open hunting seasons soley from the ABUSE of ATV priviledges.

Ban all chute planes 60 days before the opening of any hunt and over winter range areas from mid Dec - mid April. Ahhhh, wouldn't that be nice. Also, confiscate any ATV found to be out of compliance with the laws and sell it at auction.

---Drummond, better to have those guys pounding yearling bucks rather than everyone putting all the pressure on the older age class bucks.
 
So I guess the private land hunts on and above the Pauns where the deer are in velvet and in late summer mode has nothing to sdo with it.(The Heaton Ranch has been mowing them down for years. Ask anyone in Kane county with half a brain.) The hunts that occur twice on a migratory herd in the Pauns and Northern Arizona put twice the pressure on those bucks. There has been a drought of near biblical proportions in the entire Southwest for a few years and has had a major impact on the overall herd numbers and viability.

I have heard from some pretty damn reliable sources that this years harvest of mature and oversized racked bucks was WAY up both in Utah statewide and the Strip itself. But I guess if you didn't get one for whatever reason, it sucks to be you and your probably a little miffed to go home with an intact tag in your pocket. This would be especially true if you applied for years and developed a level of unrealistic expectations like there should be a monster behind every pinion or juniper. Those bucks are damn rare and you have to be good and you have to be lucky to kill one. Not every jackass with a 13B tag kills a whopper.

Suck it up and hunt harder, hunt smarter and realize that the West is a constantly changing place, often for the worse. Monster bucks are an incredibly rare creature and there aren't enough to go around for everyone that wants one. Some succeed through dumb luck, some work their asses off and rise to the occasion, some fork out the big dough through state gov tags, and some crap-eating yellow weasels that can't hack it with the rest of us whack em in the off season. I could go on but lets just end this with my favorite quote from this site.
GO BIG OR GO HOME. Let the dinks walk.
 
Buckspy,
First of all, you don't know me and how I hunt. I hunt hard and I've taken trophy animals in the past. I know what it takes to find and take a trophy. I don't need you telling me to hunt harder! If the drought,habitat, and the predators are the major scapegoats for the Paunsagunt and Utah in general,then why are there still toads in Arizona where the drought, habitat, and the predators are just as bad. I'll tell you why! Limited hunters, proper management you actually will see a game warden during the hunt, no guide pressure until now, and plenty of wide open space for the deer to hide in until now. Like I said before, I'll give it 5 years and everyone will be crying the blues because the Utah Trophy disease will be in full swing everywhere you go. There's no stopping it. Because no one will get together and do anything besides the ones with money. That's why things will just continue the way they are and the public will sit back and do nothing. Let's just let these wildlife organizations continue to do nothing but lobby for their own interests which by the way most of the big wigs are guides!
 
There seems to be this re-occurring theme that we should just forget about the pathetic mature mule deer situation and just "hunt harder". Sure, I will do that, but it doesn't change the fact that the number of mature mule deer in just about in any given population base is probably at all time lows, period. THE ONLY units that have decent amounts of mature mule deer is the DRAW ONLY units,and even some of these are not so great and private land that restricts hunting.

Commen sense tells you that there is a problem. IT IS DIFFERENT today. And it is different in the US from Canada. Hell, we can't even hunt up there without a guide, so there is little out of country pressure. Plus, you have a tremendous amount of land compared to the amount of people that live in Canada. Do the math, divide your acreage in Canada by the number of people who live in Canada......I think you will come up with a better ratio than the US.

It sounds like 30incher was voicing his frustration at a PARTICULAR use of technology with chute planes. Of course the decline of mature mule deer bucks is not completely due to chute planes!!!!! But, the fact remains that increased technology is making hunters more efficient.

These are the facts: When you combine lots of hunting pressure WITH INCREASED TECHNOLOGY, that is going to equal poor buck escapement. PERIOD.

You guys in Canada are lucky, you can have your cake and eat it to because you, while you have the increased technology, you don't have wildly out of control hunter numbers. Consider yourself lucky. And there are pockets of areas in the US that don't have big numbers of hunters, but these areas are now few and far between. The other major problem is the growth of the outfitters on private ground. This has concentrated the remaining hunters onto the public ground, further compounding the problem. So, even in areas where overall tag sales have dropped, there still might be increased hunting pressure on the public land. Now, I am not proposing to do away with guiding on private land, that is the landowners right to do that. But, it still forces a more concentrated hunting experience for the rest of us.

There is only one solution to more mature bucks on public ground----restrict the number of hunters! You can't turn back the technology clock and you can't stop private people (farmers) from guiding on their land. This is the world we live in and will for the future. The problem with just "sucking" it up is that pretty soon, there won't even be the big bucks for the people that work hard. Every time I think I have finally gotten back into an area where I can't believe anybody would be, I see boot tracks!!! There is always somebody willing to work harder than you,and their numbers will only increase. There are areas all over the West where you can see a 100 does during the rut, and the most mature buck you see out of that group is a 22 inch 3.5 year old deer. That is not a mature mule deer. In fact, in many of these areas 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer are doing most of the breeding. How pathetic it is to see a 110 pound 1.5 year old deer cruising with 10 does during the rut?? And then mounting a 175 pound doe???? When junior breeds Grandma, that is not a good situation.

We all need to look in the mirror because we are ALL part of the problem. I am as guilty as anybody, because I can get into my hunting area quicker, warmer, and with better gear than I have ever been able to do before. I also have a 300 hp PU when chained up I can go almost anywhere in any conditions. And then, if I don't find the trophy I am looking for, I can get on the interstate and drive 12 hours and be in a completely different state with my tag that I researched on with the Huntin'Fool. Yes, I work hard and hike hard for mule deer, probably more than the average hunter, just like a lot of us on this site. But, what happens in 10 years when people like us are all doing the same hard hiking and working??? And the best buck we can find in prime mule deer country, two miles off of the nearest road, is a 3.5 yr old, 19 inch, 3 pt.??????

muleyguy
 
Guys I live in southern Utah and I can tell you first hand how horrible the hunting has become. I don't care about trying to make those planes illegal since it's already in the proc.

Here's the break down of the decline in the deer herds in Utah.

1. First to many tags sold each year.
2. Overkill of the does.
3. Dedicated hunters.
4. Trophy Poachers
5. Meat Poachers.
6. Predators.
7. Winter kill.
8. Road kill.
9. No fawns.
10. Decline in the size of deer people will hold out for.
11. Drought.
12. Poor management plan.
13. Less logging.
14. Overgrazing, mainly sheep.
15. lack of fires.
16. Access.
17. Technology.
18. 5 day hunts.
19. Not enough conservation officers.
20. Turkey(deer) shooters.
21. loss of state lands.
22. Development.
23. Not elk(grazers).

I think thats enough to make any serious hunter go someplace else. If I missed something go ahead and include it.
 
I think what 30inch is trying to get across, is that maybe the chute plane isn't a problem right now, just as 4 wheelers weren't very popular 10 years ago, but that we should make them illegal NOW before everybody has one, and even knows what one is so they can't get them, and before they run all the deer out of the country during the season. Maybe not completely, but I think 90 days before season starts is a good time limit. Other than that, I can't add anything that you guys haven't all pointed out.

Michael~All Gods creatures welcome, right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-03 AT 01:07AM (MST)[p] Let's play this game with the cards all face up for a change. 30incher waited a good portion of his adult life (he claims anyway) for his hunting E-ticket on the Paunsaugunt. He finally draws deep into a long-term drought and hunts a herd with a diminished buck to doe ratio and can't find the buck of his dreams. He's stunned at his lack of success on the type of trophy he expected to find, although if he'd have paid attention to folks talking about the hunting prospects on the Paunsaugunt for this year he'd have known it was going to be a tough season, so he becomes frustrated and seeks out an explanation. Here's a face up card: "It's that %^&*$ Ryan Hatch's fault! He shot every &^*%$# big buck out of here from the seat of his &^%* chute plane!" "Now he's headed for the Strip and he's gonna shoot 'em all out there too! Gots to be sumpthin' done about the %$^&* Ryan Hatch!!!"

The thinly veiled attack on Hatch has begun again. Geez, it's especially tough for some to take as he's producing and editing and marketing and selling one heck of a slick magazine that is making waves in the trade and holding its' own for quality and content issue by issue. Geez, that's gotta piss off quite a few of the dead-enders' that ain't gonna let it go.

30incher, if you think guides and outfitters "discovered" the Strip in the past "few years" you truely are uninformed. Quite a few fellas have been successfully guiding in that incredibly rugged moonscape country for many a year. You rail against the well-heeled "sport" that has the cash to buy a Governor's Tag and then hires up some scouts to narrow down the search on this huge tract of land. What's the problem? The fact he can afford it and you choose not to so he's "unethical"? Or is it that his money makes it too "easy" for him to get that monster buck and the guy without a chute plane and a harem of scouts bags a nice mature buck and no one really notices? Do you really care that much about it, what are we talking about, two Governor's Tags, I just don't see the big deal. I guess I'm just not as enlightened as you are. I have always labored under the delusion that the fantastic sums of cash those few fellas pay for their chance to hunt the Strip on a Governor's Tag was being put to good use by the G&F Dept and the conservation groups benefiting the mule deer. Am I wrong?

I'd say the AZG&F probably had a meeting or two and pondered amongst themselves for a spell before they came up with the legislation to enact a law prohibiting scouting from a chute plane inside 48 hours of a hunt. It's probably a good guess they refered to preceeding U.S. law and similar laws in other western states. They must have thought 48 hours were enough or they could just have easily made it 72 hours or 1 week or 1 month or 3 months or whatever the heck they wanted to! I think you overstate matters when you say "everyone will soon have a chute plane". I don't see "everyone" forking out $10,000+ for a plane. I see plenty of hunters who don't have an atv, a pair of Leicas, nor a fancy goretex jacket out hunting having a grand time!

Look, the Strip is a limited draw area with a very small number of tags. Not everyone who gets a tag hires a guide nor does everyone of the tag holders have or use or employ a guy with a chute plane to scout for them. The majority of the tag holders do it the old fashioned way of getting out of the rack before dawn, hiking to a point and glassing to find a buck, check tanks, drive sandy roads looking for tracks, fish hooking oceans of cedar and PJ country, and keeping track of doe herds for a rutting buck. If you sincerely want to lay the blame at the foot of the chute plane, well, that horse is already out of the barn.

Your passion to "do something" is noted;however your efforts would really be better spent working with the ADA, the MDF, and other likeminded groups to improve habitat, control predators, support sound game management, AND fight the radical eco-terrorists and tree-hugging landgrabbers that want to gobble up the Strip and close it down forever!

Jim Rich
 
30" Bucks- I apologize for suggesting that you don't hunt hard. I don't know you. I understand your frustration.
I think your venting is pointing the finger in the wrong direction. I agree that quads have virtually no place in hunting and chute planes do cross the line of "How far do we go?"
You have to draw lines somewhere and I believe that is one.

Honest answers to tough questions aren't always easy to find nor accept. There is alot of subjective bias on these issues.
 
What is the goal behind limiting 4 wheeler access, plan access, technolgy for hunting, etc? It is to keep more people away from the animals.
Well then I have a suggestion...LETS REDUCE THE NUMBER OF TAGS! Did anyone go look around at the Henrys while it was a closed unit, or Vernon, or the Book Cliffs? There were Deer everywhere.
While I agree that hunting and scouting from a plan are not the most ethical thing in the world, I do not agree that we should skirt the issue and make changes that are directed at secondary issues.
If I have a giant thorn stuck in my ass I do not want a doctor to tell me to sit on a soft pillow, or don't sit anymore. I want it pulled out and the problem fixed. (sick example I know)
We have a problem.
Problem: NOT ENOUGH DEER
Cause: Hunting, Drought, Habitat, (Planes????)
Solution: Let's kill less of them ourselves!

We cannot control the other things, so let's control ourselves.
REDUCE HUNTING PRESSURE, BY REDUCING HUNTERS.
 
Well said Bowhunt; there is only one solution, kill less of them, period. Pretty hard to understand the sensitivity here of people who keep digging on 30incher about chute planes?????

Chute planes are a SYMPTOM of a larger problem. Is that so hard to understand???? I can't believe people are trying turn this thing around on 30incher and suggest that he is a weak hunter and that chute planes are no big problem????? What the hell are you talking about???? So, the "responsible" use of chute planes, 48 hrs before the season starts so Ryan Hatch can locate big bucks for his Governer Tag holder clients is ok???? There are some people on this site that are way off base. When technology makes it so that the harvesting of mature bucks becomes substantially easier, it is time to either restrict the technology or restrict the amount of hunters.

I would like one person to stand up here and state publicly that there is NOT a problem with mature mule deer in our herds in the West. Can anybody do that??? NO. Because there is a PROBLEM. Just because a few of you still have your secret honey holes that you can hike to and find some good bucks does not mean that there isn't a problem. Or if you are one of the lucky ones and can afford a yearly ranch hunt or have private ground lined up, things are probably still pretty good. But, it is pretty pathetic on public ground, and the vast majority of us still do most of our hunting on public ground.

One final point to make, this site also concentrates some of the better mule deer hunters in the West, and not many people on this site are posting pics of their 2-points, so just because it "looks" like there are all kinds of big bucks being taken, the pictures on this site do not represent what is going on in the West. We are living in fantasy land on this site. There is a problem out there, nobody can deny that, attacking peoples hunting ability is just putting your head in the sand.

muleyguy
 
i am one who agrees that limiting the # of tags is the right thing to do.

the problem is there are too many hunters (especially on public land), and those hunters will shoot the first legal animal they see, leaving very few bucks that live to maturity.

i've also observed that the increase in outfitting on private ranches has concentrated more hunters on public lands, which has caused the decline in mature buck numbers to be steep both on the private (easy access for outfitter clients), and public lands.

berto
 
In my humble opinion it's not atv's, technology, predators, chute planes...In my mind it's the lack of good game management and the LOVE for the almighty buck$$$$$..Drum hit the nail on the head. It's all about the fee's states make on hunting and hunting equipement..It's a billion dollar industry and it's only going to get bigger..
 
I agree with your problems Hedges, but dedicated Hunters?? They can only take two deer in three years. Please explain??
 
Let me ask some questions. Please respond and let's start figuring things out:
There are many groups that claim to be helping out the Mule Deer situation. Do any of them make a difference? Do we need to do something different than is being done already?

We all have what I think are good ideas...are we sharing them in the right forum?

Maybe we (Monster Muley Members) should unite. Put all of our thoughts togther and get them communicated and driven.

What do you think guys? Is it time to band together differently and get something done?
 
It is easy to tell from the majority of posts that "Too Many Hunters, To Many Tags" is the main culpret in the decline of trophy mule deer in many of the States. Add on all the other smaller but important issues like the drought, predators, ATV's and lack of winter range habitat and you can really see how the decline has snowballed.
It really boils down to "Poor Management" on the part of your wildlife managers. I've read the rant of the "Almighty dollar" many a times on this site and that will give you guys an uphill battle to try to change the system. (Kinda like us fighting the Eastern Liberals and their bloody Gun Registry)
I've said it many times before, but we don't have a problem with our mule deer herds in this province. In fact, they are strong and growing. Not just in numbers, but in trophy potential. And it's not just Mule Deer. The majority of our Big Game in this province is doing extraordinarily well. Yes, there are a few small regional problems with some of our herds, like the Fraser River Basin California Big Horns, but we are really aggressively working to solve those problems.
Wildlife management in this province has never been driven by the almighty dollar. That is one of the reasons that we have the World Class Hunting that we have. We could have started selling tags to everyone and their dog like a lot of the States do, and that would have put us on the wrong track. Instead we have some of the most liberal hunting seasons in the West for our residents, with 3 months of hunting for 3 over the counter tags for mule deer. The wildlife managers have a good pulse on the herds, and they are willing to shut things right down if there happens to be some issues. An example is the Moose hunt in the southern end of the province. It was shut right down for a few years, and then opened only to LEH and now the moose are really booming. They have steadily been releasing more tags each year. Should a hard winter hit, or lung worm, they can shut the number of tags right down again.
We have been putting our wildlife first. Just look at how much land we've put aside into the Provincial Park system in the last decade. And the majority of those parks are OPEN to Hunting. I'm not saying we have a perfect system, but it seems to be working well. And I strongly feel I am living in the Good 'Ol Days.
 
Chute planes,Atvs,High end optics,Long range guns,Gps,Spot Lites Etc...Where do we draw the line.In a perfect world it would be nice to do away with all of these technological advances,and go back to the glory days,BIG DEER AND 30/30s.I personally my self have shot some big bucks in the high country with long range rifles and range finders,Would I have killed some of these bucks with out the help of these weapons ? some yes some no.Are big bucks in a decline because of some of these high tech toys? In my opinion YES,Lets face it there are some very (good) hunters that use one or another of these Gadgets to ensure sucsses.How much better would some of these units be without the aid of these tech toys????I had the chute plane aregument one day with a well known hunter who does not think they are a problem.This person has max points for the arizona strip,I brought up the point,That when you finally draw your strip tag, after all those years of waiting and giving up your point money,Would you rather hunt a Arizona strip that has been pounded with planes for the last 10 years or a unit that has restricted them from flying chute planes!!!!!!I personally do not like to here of a big buck or a monster bull that has been located out of the air and then babysitted by a chute plane until it is time to take the animal,Is it time for some stricter laws for the betterment of BIG MULE DEER,I think so.As this is a touchy subject I thank 30inchbucks for the post,And I dont mean to offend,Just my opinion Later............PAUL PENNIE
 
hey 30 inch, I have a couple of questions for you. I'm just curious. What were the biggest bucks that you saw down there this year and did you take one and how big was it? Because I'm wondering if its even worth it to apply for the Paunsaugunt anymore. I keep hearing from a lot of different people not only from this message board that its not much of tophy unit anymore.
 
According to my Dad, a native of Hurricane, the southern slope of Pine Valley Mountain had excellent hunting in the 60's. A couple of guys made a full-time living hunting cougars in the area during that era. This area was put into the Browse unit during the 80's & 90's and gave no more than a few dozen tags each year (in other words very little pressure for a long time.) This area opened up several years ago to the genreral hunt and it isn't abounding with good bucks. How do your guide/ultralite/severe pressure theories explain the decline on Pine Valley?
 
Very good read here fellers, Jim Rich sumerized most of my thoughts, I don't begrudge Mr. money bags for buying his trophys, if it wasn,t mule deer it would be another NBA francize or a Siera club preserve, nor do I begrudge him for buying that rack for his ol'lady the one that is 300lbs psi. DD in size. So what if his deer is 5" wider than mine & his ol'lady knockers can be used for flotation devices. niether of mine where bought, so when he drives by in that bright orange hummer(GM) P.O.S, with that hooker riding shotgun, I get a good laugh, try to cop a look at the knockers:eek: & then apreciate both of mine all the more.
As far as all the big bucks that are located getting shot in P/J forests, that just ain't gonna happen, think of the buck of justice, all those high priced guides knew right were he was final tally went like this, Buck of justice 1, blow hard guides 0. Flat land P/J will never be an easy hunt.
Thanks for starting this thread 30" its provoked some good dissucion, your points where well written, & other than what I mention I couldn't agree with you more.
 
These wildlife groups are mostly focused on improving habitat. Which is important. That is what they are doing. If there are not any deer left to feed on that habitat then What is the point? Yes, we need to band together to get some things changed before it is too late. Like I said before some of big wigs involved with these groups are guides watching out for their own best interests. Example, Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife. Also like I said before I have nothing against guides making an honest ethical living, but I do have a problem when they become unethical because THAT IS STEALING FROM ALL OF US! We need to wake up to what is going on! Tags should have been cut back long before now! If you think paying 100K for a tag and 10K to 20K for a guide or guides to fly and locate, send you pictures, then fly in, there it is shoot it, is a sport or a trophy you must either be a guide or able to buy anything you want or smoking some funny stuff! As far as the Paunsagunt and the shape it is in and whether you should apply or not. I would save your points for a better day. Again, there might not be any better days the way things are going. The Henry's are not any better either. I did alot of research before I burned my points. I hunted hard starting in June and the majority of the bucks I seen on the Pausagunt were in the 15 to 20inch range! I had one buck 16 yards from my treestand on the archery hunt that was maybe 27inches but had one bad side. It should be good next year if it can survive everything else. The muzzleloader isn't any better either because then you deal with guides being on every ridge with a spotting scopes and blinds set up on all the good water holes. Trust me I spent hours down there and was all over the unit. I was all over both the low country and high country with a spotlight and sometimes all night long. There is not much there. I did see 2 good ones on private land but the guides got them that I heard the rumors about. Someone might tell you different but their definition of a trophy might be different too!
 
Some interesting posts and I must admit, that I didn't read through them all. However, I did read the first post and must admit some interesting points were brought up.
Having limited my deer hunting to Idaho and Utah I will only express my opinion as to the decline of our deer herd(in Utah) The decline in my opinion is as follows:

1- Utah Fish and Game

2- Not enough public land/loss of winter range

4- Too many access roads

5- Predators

6- Increased elk herd

I rank these in order, from most impact to least. I am sure I will get hell for it but that is my opinion.

There is no question in my opinion that the Fish and Game needs to shoulder more of the blame on the deer herd decline. More needs to be done to preserve the deer winter range. I would be happy if they doubled the deer tag prices in Utah (as long as the money was put to use FOR the DEER).

They need to shut down more access roads (and yes I do own a 4-wheeler).

After hunting this past year, I have seen more deer kills than I have ever seen. Hopefully, fur prices will rise and put more pressure on the coyotes.

And last, I believe that with so much emphasis on the elk herds, they have increased to the point where they are running of the deer. The Fish and Game realizes there is more value in a deer than an elk. I know I will get grief for saying this (and I do like to hunt elk), but I don't think the herds (elk and deer) are balanced.

I keep hearing that the "Sportsman" are accountable. And I must admit; yes, to a point we are. But the FISH and GAME are getting paid to do a job, and need to make changes.

Jason
 
Hey 30#er, using a spotlight all night long both in the high country and desert low lands. What gives? Definately not ethics. But, I guess you were only scouting. Rick
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-03 AT 03:18PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-03 AT 03:16?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-03 AT 02:57?PM (MST)

[Yes, I was only scouting but again the law says I can without a weapon. I would gladly give that up if I could see something done about other things or some improvements. Spotlighting has been around ever since I can remember. It is also a traditional ground method of locating that hunters have used for years.If there were more ethical hunters out there then we would be able to still pop the predators using a light! The more I think about it maybe we should take a serious look at the spotlighting law too. Um, that would really make things more fair. I'm open-minded. Let's do something instead of nothing!
 
Someone posted on here that there were something like 80,000 hunters in Utah last year. So, add all the money up from the Governer Tags etc in the state. Lets say it equals $200,000. That only adds up to $2.50 per hunter!!!!!!! These tags are not about raising money for the state. All they would have to do is raise everybody's tag by a couple of bucks!!! I don't have actual numbers on what these special tags bring in revenue wise for the state, but the bottom line here is that if you spread that out over all the hunters in the state, it is pennies. Or better yet, why not sell lottery tickets for 10 bucks apiece and let anybody who wanted too buy one??? This would raise way more money than the way they do it now. These Governer Tags are all about publicity and the money it brings to the guides for guiding the people who purchase these things. So, lets end the debate that these people who pay a $100,000 for a Governer Tag are doing so much for wildlife. Offer those tags to everybody in a lottery style or just add a couple of bucks to everybody's tags and leave that hunt open to a special draw for everybody. I wholeheartedly agree that the game depts need help in funding, etc. but there is a better way than Governer Tags. These Governer Tags are a slippery slope. So, in ten years when the game dept funding gets cut more, they will just add 5 more Governer Tags???? All sportsmen need to buck up and pay a little more, and then get rid of these stupid tags. Once again, this is not a knock against the guides, I think they should have the right to guide, but special tags for outifitters (like they do in Montana) or Governer Tags only magnify the problems. I will gladly pay a couple of extra bucks on my tag, or buy a lottery ticket to have a chance at one of these Governer Tags.

muleyguy
 
I originally posted this topic in order to stir some interest and get some feedback on what we could do about our muledeer herd. We've heard controversy from all sides it seems like and there will be more to follow. Bottom line is that we all want the same thing and we all need to sacrafice some things in order to get it done. Whether your a hunter, guide,or just a wildlife enthusiast. Whether its putting restrictions on some technology advances that have been mentioned, cutting back the number of tags, raising the prices of tags and eliminating others,etc.etc. The point is obvious. The current ways of management are surely not working! Things need to be changed and as far as I know the process for change is getting a plan of action together as a GROUP and voicing or stating in writing our opinion to the RACS, wildlife board, or local legislators. If it continues the way it is currently, we are all going to lose out in the end.
 
The real reason for the mule deer's decline is: The Banning of Poisons for predator control.

From 1920-1970 a farmer could buy stric 9 (sp) or another type of poison to kill predators. Gov't trappers and private trappers harvested the predators. Now all poisons are banned and hardly anyone hunts predators. (Better said knows how to hunt predators.)

Other factors:
-People moaning about the Wildlife Agencies, but those same moaners never protest developments on critical range.
-Loss of domestic grazing, which allows grass to out-compete forbs. (Also allows no Predator control by Gov't Trappers)
-ATV use in many areas.
-Competition from growing ELK herds. (Come see the results of too many elk on our ranch and how they negativly impact the deer)
-Field fence. (The kind with little squares) I can't count how many dead fawns I found in our fences, which are in the process of being converted to Barbed Wire.
-Maybe a chute plane or 2 does lead to killing more mature monsters.
 
You all have great points on a very contriversial issue. The problem is our amount of control. The only control we really have is hunter numbers. The problem with that is; hunting big bucks is getting more popular. The only solution that I can see is for 95% of you guys to quit applying for out of state tags. Find a new lifestyle because I cannot. I need you to quit competing with me for tags!!!! he, he!!! Honestly folks, the only way to cut competition for tags is to raise the fees. Ouch!!!! I know that'll piss some of you off, but, come up with a better sollution??? I'm a working stiff that has to save every extra dime for applications. I'm very careful which units I apply for, but trust me there are good ones out there. I am willing to pay more to hunt them, are you??? If not, then you don't want it bad enough. Please offer a better solution that we can agree on??? Steve
 
First thing is all units in all states should be by drawing only. How else can the wildlife departments really be "managing" our mule deer? Unlimited numbers of over-the-counter tags needs to be a thing of the past.

Second thing is resident tags in most states need to be more expensive. They are way too cheap. The extra money can be used for buying up critical habitat or hiring more game wardens.

Last but not least is outfitters should not get guaranteed tags for their clients, and landowners should not be given tags that they can then sell to whoever can afford to pay the most.
 
Take a look at the buck that On Target filmed. Looks like one made it threw all the guides and chuteplanes. LMAO!
 
Hey BCBOY,

Do you know how many Mule Deer Hunters hunted BC this year?
Do you have over the counter tags or do you draw?

Just curious, down here where I live in Wyoming we have both in area I live and I've noticed a few more hunters more and more each year. But the Wyoming Game and Fish increased non-resident fees and from the feedback I'm seeing maybe our hunting pressure will go down for a while.

Just for every ones info it was the hardest Mule Deer Hunting here in Wyoming for me since I've been here, But I missed the Biggest Buck I've seen during hunting season since I've lived here. And I still killed a nice 4 point. I've lived here for 6 years now.
 
Longun,
I think your hunter numbers up there in WY will not go down due to the fee increase. Residents' fees didn't go up much and the NonRes are by quota. Applications may go down, but you guys will still sell all your tags.

Again,
Utah hunter numbers in the early 1990's: 250,000
Success Rate for the Early 1990's: 33%
Average deer killed by hunters in the early 1990's: 80,000+

Utah hunter numbers in 2002: 97,000
Success rate for 2002: Around 30%
Deer Killed by hunters in 2002: 22,000-

Something besides reduced hunter numbers needs to be done.
 
While on the surface, 2-points numbers make it look like that too many hunters are not the problem, a closer look at those numbers shows something even more disturbing.

According to data from the Utah website, from 1976 until 1987, Utah hunters harvested about 76,000 does. From 1988 until 1992, Utah hunters harvested over 86,000 does! So, in six years, hunters shot 10,000 more does than they did in the preceeding 12 years. Unfortunately for Utah, this came immediately preceeding the horrible winter of 92/93. With those huge doe harvests, the herds must have been virtually wiped out after that winter. After 1992 the buck harvests obviously drop off dramatically. While winter kills are bad enough, with these huge doe harvests, there probably was little left to rebuild the population. Imagine the revenue boost the Utah dept of game enjoyed from 87 until 92 (86,000 tags @ $20/tag = $1.7 million). Utah's problem is obvious. While it looks like the harvest numbers (especially does) has come down through the 90's, it is no wonder that 10 years later, your state is still struggling. The age structure of your population is probably just starting to get back to where it was. There is nothing anybody can do about winter kills, but with all of the increased pressures our mule deer have, the last thing they need is copious amounts of doe tags. Doesn't it make sense to keep doe tags at a minimum in todays world, just to have a "hedge" against the tremendous pressures our modern mule deer herds have???

Once again, it all boils down to too many deer being killed, sometimes the problem is bucks, sometimes the problem is does. The Utah dept of game and the hunters of Utah were having a big party from 87 until 92, and then Mother Nature took away the punchbowl.

For the record, in 1990 Utah harvested 58,000 bucks and 16,975 does and had 231,500 hunters. This equates to a 26.9% success rate for bucks. In 2000, Utah harvested 33,031 bucks and 4,520 does and had 103,336 hunters. This equates to a success rate of 33.4%; or almost 8 percentage points higher than in 1990. The long-term implications of a success rate 8% higher would be dramatic on the amount of mature mule deer in the population. And, this higher success rate is on a much smaller population of mule deer and the buck/doe ratio's in todays population is probably lower than it was in 1990. The biggest thing people could do to find solutions to things is for states to hire INDEPENDENT biologists to assess what is going on in the mule deer populations. There is no reason that states could not "outsource" this service to very qualified/ independent biologists, this would have a minimal revenue impact because the dept wouldn't have to maintain such a high level of biologists in its employment. Right now, 95% of the info on our mule deer herds comes from the state depts of game. I am not here to bash the game depts, but they are not an unbiased source of info. They need to sell tags to fund their dept, and that will always color their judgement. They will always be too quick to up game quotas, and be too slow to bring them back down. I don't have a specific recollection, but I believe it was the Utah legislature that "forced" the game dept to restrict the tags after the 92/93 winter kill??? Why was the game dept not capable of making this decision????

muleyguy
 
Dedicated hunters (D.H.)

Well DeerLove I do recognize the fact that they do all the back work to the states projects. I do also recognize that D.H. also are only alloted 2 deer in 3 years. The problems with D.H is that they do take 2 mature deer and then some. I do aggre this is a good program but it needs a little work. I'm not saying all of them do that but I've seen way to many hunters party hunt or give away a buck they felt wasn't good enough after they killed it. I'm sure most on MM are going to say BS but look at the local sheriff. He admits to shooting 3-5 deer a year besides the one he actually tags out. I'm sure most people in Utah know this party hunting is a major problem. Take the bow hunt, its the only tag you don't have to draw to get and many people will buy tags for their wife and girl friends so they can shoot another buck. I've been a member for a couple reups and I love the long hunting season it gives me but I'm not going to reup this year so I can really enough what I love, bow hunting and a limited entry tag for next year.
 
In the spring of 2002 Ut. DWR says we have 280,000 deer in utah, after the winter of 93 we had 320,000 head. the DWR is expecting 20000 fewer deer in the next count. The problem is not atvs chute planes guides etc. though they may be factors it is the decline of the overall herd. If we cut back tags next season we would have a higher ratio of bucks but it will not help the does. We need habitat improvements and money raised outside of legislative processes (conservation tag money) has less red tape attached to it and can and has been used with much more versatality. It will not matter how many activities we ban or limit if we can not figure some way to bring the deer herd back. I have a feeling if the herd was to get close to 400,000 animals there will be a lot less bitchin.
 
i have to admit, i didn't read this whole thread, but i did see mention of tied up private land by outfitters being part of the problem. in a way, it might be, but taking it away will be a problem that cant be reversed. i always here people complain about it(not so much on here, but in the general public). heres the problem-many of these ranchers who lease rights to outfitters would not be ranchers if not for the hunting income. thats simple fact. i know of several who make more money in a couple weeks from hunters than they do all year long on stock and crops. they're not getting rich, but they're keeping it afloat. the ones who are getting rich are the ones we have to worry about, and they aint sellin hunts-they're selling to developers. developers who could care less about winter range for wildlife. same goes for grazing rights, without them, many of these ranches couldn't stay afloat. i do agree that sheep are tough on deer, they have to be managed very carefully to not utterly destroy land, and that needs to be done. i know its tough to watch people pay thier way onto ranches and kill big deer consistently, but just try to remember-they're making payments on a bunch of the winter range our deer need.

sam
 
TOO MANY TAGS! I remember hunting the Book Cliffs about 20 years ago when it took 4 hours to drive there from Vernal which directly translated to almost no hunters. During the entire rifle season, we would see maybe 2 other groups of hunters. There were big bucks EVERYWHERE. We always saw at least one 30"+ buck a year. It gradually went downhill with better access. There got to be so many hunters that you couln't find a single square foot of terrain that wasn't 'covered' on opening morning. Finally, they had to close the unit because you couldn't find a flippin' 2-point. Limit the tags even more. I'll gladly hunt a buck once every 2 or 3 years and pay 2 or 3 times the current price. I doubt it'll happen though.
 
The success numbers that have been stated are averaged and across the whole state of Utah. If you look at many of WY and CO statistics you'll notice that where the hunter numbers are strictly limited you'll see the hunter success percentage jumps dramatically (especially non-residents). And I'm talking buck only units. I know of a few units in CO that dramatically cut back buck tags in '99 because the whole herd was suffering. Now, 4 years later they had to sell doe tags to slow down the growth of the herd. And, 2 of the units enjoyed a 98% plus hunters success rate during the later seasons. Please don't try and tell me it doesn't work!!! I know it's not the only solution but it would make a huge difference if done right. I also believe that UT DOW is being optimistic with their count numbers. I doubt there are much more than 200,000 deer in the whole state. Steve
 
What does livestock on the forest and and winter grounds have to do with seeing more people than deer?
 
Maybe this was said in an above post, but this is my 02 cents worth..lol
Back in the good ol days, seasons didn't run from Aug till Dec.
F&G have cow elk tgs going on during the deer rut....big bucks are being poached...how many F&G officers are in the feild? Haven't seen any yet. I hunt lions and bobs all winter...never once been checked for anything....Ya know if a guy was to take $1000.00 bill and lay it on the counter with a group of guys around and say: Now I'm leaving...don't take this money.....I probably won't be back for awhile....knowing this what do you think the chances are of seeing that money dissapear? Guaranteed it would be gone. Now if you was to put the money behind a lock there would be alot less chances of it disappearing. This is because most honest guys won't cut off a lock. But here the F&G are putting a rifle in the hands of alot of people during a big muley bucks dumbest time of his year...most of these guys aren't avid hunters...they are just out to shoot a cow elk....never seen a trophy buck before, but here's a 25" (or bigger) that looks 40" to most of them. Normally these folks wouldn't be tempted,hell they normally wouldn't be in the feild, but under the circumstances I honestly believe that alot are. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'd like to think I was. I would like to think everyone was ethical, but I don't
This is what I think. I think overhunting, poaching, over-all poor management, and all of the other things that have been stated is what the problem is. I don't know how to correct it. I wish it wasn't all about money, but it is. F&G don't really care about our herds...I've come to believe that. Now I'm not accusing all F&G folks of this. I'm sure there are those that work for the F&G that are as frustrated as we are, but those who make the big decisions need to wake up....cause from where I'm standing it won't be long till there won't be to much game to manage....Just 2 cents from a frustrated hunter...lol...lash out at me if you wish.
 
Lots of good opinions on this thread. There seems to be some trends developing:

1) herds are still recovering (in some area's) from the 93 winter

2) these decimated herds continue to get pounded by hunters (humans, cats, etc)

3) winter habitat continues to be a limiting factor

4) private ranches, which manage hunter numbers, harvest, predators and habitat have better hunting

I guess my opinion is that game departments in general are not "nimble" enough to actively manage game numbers. Nevada seems to be an exception and I think others are "getting it".

I would gladly hunt every other year if the quality of the hunt would be better. You know, fewer people, more game, etc.

Also, the tag prices for residents are too cheap. I know that makes a lot of people mad, but they are. My only problem with paying more for the tag is the thought that the money would go for more overhead, not habitat, enforcment, etc.

IMO-all mule deer hunting should be on a controlled hunting basis, choose your weapon/area. Increase resident fees, and use the money for enforcement and habitat, and to purchase easements for access so there is more places to spread out pressure. Limit doe harvest to very specific area's that are experiencing depradation.

I could go on. AGain, great thread.
 
Good thread!
I'll be drafting a letter to send to the contacts provided.
Time to ground the air attack!
 
Whats funny here is that the original thread was so completely off base but the responses were right on the money yet you are going to bark up the wrong tree and write about the "impact", or lack there of, of chute planes. Why dont you go back and read some of the responses and spend your time writing a letter about things that will actually make a difference. I dont know if its jealousy or just lack of an ability to reason but a very few people with chute planes wont be the demise of mule deer, it will be all of the reasons previously listed combined with the ignorance of a few people that make decisions based on emotion rather than logic.

Drummond
 
Classic response Lindsey!
When you can't think of a "logical" response defending your crony's, toss out the old stand by, jealousy!
Jealous of what?
Before you go off on a tangent, you don't know me from Adam!
You don't know anything about me, except maybe what somebody might have told trying to tarnish my reputation as an honest person.
You have an opinion on chute planes! That's great! Some of your "friends" are the very culprits. I wouldn't expect any less from you.
Guess what? I'm entitled to an opinion to! And from personal experience, I can tell you that watching these chute planes in action is enough to make me puke!
I didn't want a response from anybody in the "know!"
Thank-you anyway! But I was directing my post at 30inchbucks.
By the way! Chute planes are not a big problem where I spend most of my time. They were just the "nails in the coffin" of an already struggling deer herd.
 
Everybody is entitled to his or her own opinion. I respect that however I feel that more would be accomplished by directing your frustrations to the root of the problem. Again, see above responses for the major issues facing mule deer today. I hope that you do spend the time to write anybody that can make a difference, I just hope that you dont spend all of your time talking about chute planes like 30inchbucks did. His post was so transparent it was not even funny.

Drum
 
maybe we can re-frame this chute plane thing so people can get it figured out better. Granted a few deer shot from the illegal use of chute planes is certainly not as big a deal as giving out too many tags, too many predators, etc.

But, I would also venture a guess that the people using chute planes illegally aren't your "normal" hunting guys. In fact, I would suspect that most illegal chute plane use is done by people who are.......well, I won't say it, but we all know the type of people who are using chute planes.......

So, it is probably a pretty fair statement that the illegal use of chute planes results in a few spectacular bucks being taken each year. It also seems from the posts that the chute plane use seems to be mostly in southern Utah/ Arizona, maybe New Mexico area.

How many 30" plus bucks live in any given hunting unit in these areas??? 10 or 20???? Maybe?? If a couple of spectacular bucks are shot from the illegal use of chute planes in these areas, it is not going to devastate the herd, BUT it could well represent a shocking percentage of the truly majestic mule deer bucks in these areas. Personally, I call that a significant impact, not on the herd, but on the amount of mature mule deer bucks in the herd.

We all know the type of people who are using chute planes, and it is not the guys out looking for a mid-20's mule deer buck. So, you can spin it any way you want to, but anything but complete disgust at this really causes one to question other's motives. I would say the transparency cuts both ways.
 
My last point on this subject is this. Just because a deer is located does not mean its going to be harvested. Have some respect for these deer! They did not get old by being stupid. How many times have you located a deer early on only to never see him again. I guarantee that this is what happens most of the time. Furthermore, I have never said that it was right or wrong but when used properly its not against the law. Its a moot point whether or not we agree with it or not, you cant stop anybody from flying a chute plane. If I am not mistaken there are laws that prohibit flying just before and during a season. That being said, my point is not transparent unless you read to much into it. For the record, I have no problem with them being used within the confines of the law, once somebody crosses the line and breaks the law I think that they should be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law. My point of contention with this whole arguement is the fact that there are some people here that think that chute planes are the root of all evil, its crazy. I like the fact that people are passionate about improving the quality of mule deer across the country but the focus should be directed at the real problem. Fighting the chute plane issue is like trying to fix a leaky faucet when you have a major pipe broken leading up to the sink.

Drummond
 
Drummond,
Here?s the bottom line, in my opinion. I think the original post is about concerned sportsmen doing whatever practical to restore some form of dignity back into the hunting community. Writing letters and donating money all year long will not change poor weather conditions, reinstate lost habitat, or get rid of the ill-famed individuals that continue compromising the future of our hunting heritage. I believe the average Joe will eventually understand that he/she is the real loser here. As we become numb to, and accept whatever technique is used to harvest our wildlife, less opportunity will be available for the common sportsmen. A constant reduction in tags will be necessary to make up for technologically advanced, opportunistic hunters. When all the mediocre folks have nothing left to do, but set at home and read about hunting, whom is going to care? I would like to think that we are passing on a hunting tradition to the next generation that is as good or better off, than we found it! Do you think that's the direction were headed? I don't! If we can't respect wildlife enough to stop the air assault,how about we exhibit some common decency for our fellow comrades on the ground. Are chute planes the ?root of all evil?? I doubt it, but getting rid of them in the hunting community would be one positive step in the right direction!
 
Where is SFW?

In their eyes Utah has one of the finest herds in the west. See Leavitt and SFW in the open forum.

I will say it again, Utah's deer herd sucks.
 
YA,IF YOUR THE SFW I'M SURE YOU CAN COME UP WITH A FEW GOOD TAGS BUT HUNT WHERE THE REST OF US HAVE TO HUNT AND OH BOY,I'M EXCITED I'VE GOT A GENERAL SEASON DEER TAG ALONG WITH 96,999 OTHER HUNTERS!!!

YA I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THE FUN AGAIN NEXT YEAR AND KNOWING THE ODDS OF TAKING A 30"+ BUCK!!!

OH HELL,I'M GONNA DRAW A SPORTSMAN TAG TOO,MAYBE WIN THE LOTTERY TOO,YA,RIGHT!!!

SEVERAL REASONS FOR THE DEER NUMBER SITUATION!!!

YOU MEAN TO TELL ME WE HAVE TO HUNT UNITS UNTIL THEY HAVE TO BE CLOSED???

WHEN THESE UNITS GET CLOSED THE DWR NEVER LOWERED THE PERMIT NUMBERS,THESE HUNTERS NOW MOVE TO A DIFFERENT UNIT TO HUNT THAT IS ALREADY IN TROUBLE,POUNCE IT A LITTLE MORE!!!

THEY CLOSED ELK RIDGE FOR A FEW YEARS,THEM HUNTERS DRIFTED TO DIFFERENT UNITS,THEY CLOSED THE BOOK CLIFFS,THEY DIDN'T CUT THE PERMIT NUMBERS,THEM 30,000 HUNTERS WENT AND FOUND OTHER UNITS ALREADY IN TROUBLE,THEY CLOSED THE HENRY MOUNTAINS,THESE HUNTERS WENT ELSEWHERE AND INCREASED HUNTING PRESSURE IN UNITS ALREADY SUFFERING,THEY CLOSED VERNON,WHO THE HELL KNOWS HOW MANY PEOPLE HUNTED THERE BUT THEY WENT TO DIFFERENT UNITS LOOKING FOR A BUCK,INCREASING PRESSURE ON UNITS THAT COULDN'T TAKE IT!!!

ARE THEY GONNA HUNT THE PAUNSAGAUNT UNTIL IT HAS TO BE CLOSED???

THERE ARE MORE THAN I MENTIONED BUT JUST ADD THE ONES I MENTIONED UP,A GOOD SIZED CHUNK OF THE STATE AND I WON'T EVEN GUESS HOW MANY HUNTERS USED TO HUNT IN THE UNITS MENTIONED BUT PUT THEM IN WHATS LEFT OPEN AND WHAT DO WE HAVE???WAY THE HELL TOO MANY PEOPLE HUNTING IN A PISS POOR AREA!!!

HOW ABOUT HUNTING BIG GAME CONTINUOUSLY AND OVERLAPPING FROM MID AUGUST TO EXTENDED COW KILLER HUNTS EXTENDED SOMETIMES INTO JANUARY AND FEBUARY???

THERE AIN'T NO DEER HERD THAT CAN TAKE THAT KIND OF PRESSURE!!!

THERE ARE ALOT OF REASONS,NOT JUST ONE Cass!!!

I REMEMBER THE WINTER OF 92-93,ONE OF THE FIRST BIG COW SLAUGHTERS THEY HAD IN THIS AREA,THE DEER SHOULD OF BEEN RUTTING,THE ELK HUNTERS HAD DEER PUSHED WAY HIGH,A STORM DUMPING 3 FEET OF SNOW IN ONE NIGHT AND ALOT OF THE DEER DIED,IF YOU DON'T CALL THAT DEER KILLED BY THE DWR THEN JUST BITE ME!!!

THIS HUNTING 6 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR IS BULL #####,THERE AIN'T A DEER HERD NOWHERE THAT COULD TAKE IT!!!

SEND 97,000 HUNTERS TO CANADA,LET THEM HUNT FOR SIX MONTHS,AND IN TWO YEARS BCBOY WILL START SHOOTING UTAHNS!!!

WAKE THE HELL UP AMERICA!!!BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!!!

DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THE A.T.V.'S,IF BCBOY KNEW WHAT KIND OF DAMAGE HAD BEEN DONE HERE,HE'D SELL HIS IMMEDIATELY!!!

I COULD GO ON AND ON AND ON,BUT I WON'T!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING:WHEN THE BIG GAME HERDS ARE DECIMATED WILL WE CONTINUE TO PAY THE DWR???
 
Hey Bessy,

Your post is sad, but very true.

Go read the thread I speak of in the open forum. The voice of SFW is convinced that hunters killing bucks has a minimal impact on deer herds and their quality. WHAT????

Trimming the tags will have no effect. WHAT?????

The DWR has a plan. Too bad they are failing miserably.

I agree with you Bessy. The herds get hammered to hell. Why do these knotheads think that the Paunsagaunt is 1 in 20 to draw? Maybe, just maybe, people want a chance at a good buck? Unfortunately, the Paunsagaunt isn't all what it is cracked up to be either.

Those ding-a-lings think we have a great deer herd. Thank God we have a "sportsman's voice"............

It is not about quality in Utah, it is about a "family outing." If ya want to picnic with the family do it in June for hell's sake.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-03 AT 09:44PM (MST)[p]Great comments! Sportsman for fish and what? They should call themselves "sportsman for making ourselves rich!" If they were truly concerned for our mule deer herd then I ask Why over the last few years have they sold their Paunsagunt conservation tags when they know that the unit is struggling? They will claim Habitat Habitat Habitat!!! Have you seen any improvement in our deer herd because of this HABITAT PUSH!!!! NOT!!! The Paunsagunt unit sucks!!! Right along with all the other draw units in the state!! It now has been hunted to the point of closure. We need to make our voices heard to stop this crap NOW!!!!! It's not the rich hunter that is being left out here. The management is now geared for the rich. The poor hunters like most of us need to wake up or we will find ourselves and our kids at home watching the rich do all the hunting in the future. Let's put an end to this crap before it's too late. It's kind of ironic that the big wigs of the SFW are guides who also own AIRCRAFT!!!! I could go on and on for days.
 
Drummond,
How many times have you located a buck 48 hours before the hunt opens and not had a great oportunity in that area to see it again during the hunt. That's what the current law reads on the use of chute planes. Come on! Heck lets just make the laws even more lenient and allow everyone to fly at anytime and strap rifles to their planes and throw grenades out of them so we can just kill everything and then we won't have to worry about it anymore! If you don't think that technology has had something to do with the decline in the mature buck population besides the normal scapegoats then you must be smoking something. By the way Conch, great comeback and your right on track with what I'm trying to say here. Great comments overall. Let's do something about what's going on! Too many hunts and tags also an obvious problem. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that since there is a drought, Wouldn't it make sense to cut back on the tags? No we've got people that continue to give out 90K+ tags! Along with conservation tags, landowner tags, governors tags, sportsmans tags, and let's just create some guide tags, and more and more TAGS!!!! I agree that what kind of herd can withstand all this pressure! None I tell you! NONE!
 
Since you asked the question, many of the best deer I have seen I have only seen one time. Call me a crap hunter that has no idea what I am doing but just seeing a deer while scouting does not mean that deer is going to hit the ground, all is does is put you in a specific area that you know holds the quality of deer you are looking for. Many of the deer I am refering to reside in the nastiest hell holes or the thickest desert. Some of these deer I have on video and the 2 that come to mind right away are 2 of the best deer I have ever laid eyes on. One was east of Pueblo CO and he is a has a 4 inch drop and his G3's have an inch fork on them for 6 inches of trash on top of a 200"+ typical frame. I filmed him the day before the season feeding in the wide open on the edge of a canyon the day before the season opened and I never saw that deer again. The other deer I saw the day we had hunters arriving in Sonora and that deer was mid-high 30's with amazing mass, he was one of the most impressive deer I have ever seen alive or dead and he was with 19 does and we never saw him again either and we spent the whole hunt hunting those particular deer.

If you outlaw chute planes then you should close roads on public grounds and outlaw 4 wheelers as well. I guarantee that vehicles and 4 wheelers have much more impact than a select few people with planes. My whole point to this post is that if you are going to take the time to fight for mule deer then you need to focus your fight to the areas that will have the most dramatic impact first. Its not a difficult concept to grasp for a rational person but again, when dealing with people such as yourself that make decisions based on emotion rather than reason I know that I will never get that point across.

Drummond
 
Drummond,
From the sounds of your post you must be a guide or own a chute plane. I'll agree with you on the fact that 4-wheelers have had a huge impact on our mule deer and they need to be restricted to certain roads and trails. Enforcement of the laws need to take place and the public needs to get involved. My question is, 4-wheelers have evolved over time into a huge problem. What's to stop the chute plane from doing the same thing? You can buy a plane for 10k or under and I've seen one for as little as 2k, What's to stop everyone from getting one? What if everyone that had a 4-wheeler also had a chute plane? Tell us, Are you a guide and do you own a chute plane????? I'll say it again, there has to be some limitations set on technology!!! When is enough going to be enough?! I guess we won't have to worry about it anymore when everything is dead!! By the way, I'm not talking about outlawing as you say, I'm talking about restricting their use to harass and locate big game. Since you can insult my intelligence and are basically saying man should be able to use whatever means necessary to find and kill the trophy. Then what areas as you say above should we all focus on that will have a more dramatic affect? Let me guess, habitat!!!! predators!!!! reduction of public tag numbers!!! The fish and game have cut back the tags on the public and need to cut back alot more, but don't you think they should do the same on the landowner tags, conservation tags, governors tags,and every other tag out there! The public hunter shouldn't be the only one that needs to suffer and sacrafice here!!!! The rich hunters, landowners, and the guides need to make the same sacrafice in order preserve the resource!!!!! But that will never happen because the almighty $$$$$$ rules all!!! Please answer all my questions and not just the ones that you want to Drummond. We as public hunters need to make our voices heard now! The time is now!
 
Tags should be more limited, and ALL tags should be through the drawing. If there were no guaranteed tags, these unethical practices would not be so common. As it is, anybody with money can get a tag and pay a "guide" to take them to a trophy. Money needs to be taken out of the equation. That's all there is to it.
 
Another thing as far as the leaky faucet analogy. Let's look at it like this. I always thought that when you have a leak that it gradually gets worse and worse over time. It's alot easier to fix at the beginning than at the end when it totally breaks! That's what is going to happen if we do not make our voices heard now!!! Put that one in your memory bank! In reference to comment #68.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-03 AT 03:26PM (MST)[p]30inchbucks,

Are you really that dense? Would you really fix the leaky faucet before you fixed the main water line that leads to the sink? If so, then there is no point trying to rationalize with somebody of your limited mental capacity. Once again, I am trying to get you to understand that if you truly want to make a difference you need to start with the major problems first and work your way down the list. To understand this concept I suggest you go down to your local auto mechanics shop and watch him diagnose an engine problem, starting with the major components first and gradually working his way down the list to the smaller items. If your alternater is out and you just replace the battery then you have accomplished nothing, sure, you'll make it down the road a short distance but nothing really got accomplished. This is the same principle! I have no idea why it is so difficult for people such as yourself to comprehend. If you dont like chute planes or the people that fly them then just say so but I hate the fact that you have to try and justify your hatred of these people and their planes by using the "they are decimating the herd" arguement. 30inchbucks, I doubt that these chute planes will be owned by a large population of people, there is just to much involved for the average Joe. There is the cost, 14K-18K for a new plane. There are the lessons, the trailers you need to transport them and there are a lot of people that just dont like to fly. All of this combined with the fact that the conditions have to be just right to fly but conditions really dont factor in to the use of a 4 wheeler. Its much more convenient to buy a 4 wheeler and go tear it up. I doubt you understand this though. As for your questions, I'll try to answer them all.
1. I used to guide full time but not anymore, I have some country leased but run a minimal amount of hunters.
2. I dont own a chute plane, I cant afford it.
3. As for the permits being cut back, I believe that they should be cut back. I have mentioned that since my first post. Landowner permits, conservation permits, resident and nonresident tags alike should be cut back. As for Gov. tags, I could really care less but I am a realist and realize that the income generated would offset some of the other reductions needed. Please dont tell me that one or two of these tags are the demise of mule deer hunting as we know it! If nothing else the tags could be drawn on a $10 per ticket opportunity that would allow everyone to have an opportunity. That would depend on the logistics and amount of revenue generated though.

I hope I have answered all of your rediculous questions but if not please let me know what I missed and I'll answer that as well.

Drummond
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-03 AT 04:14PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-03 AT 03:48?PM (MST)

Drummond,
You say above,"I used to be a guide full time but not anymore, I have some country leased but run a miminal amount of hunters." You are a guide so I'm done wasting my time with you!!!!! Of course you're going to think the way you do!!!!! Your comments now mean nothing and credibility is lost!!! As far as the average Joe hunters out there we need to stand up and set laws in order to put us all back on a equal playing field with the rich!!!!!! And you did miss the question about What areas do you suggest that we focus on to fix the break as you call it? Besides habitat, predators, and tag numbers it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there is a problem with these things. I did understand your analogy and if you look closely you can see that I reworded it to be in my favor. Sorry, there are always two sides to every coin. That's the beauty to our society, freedom of speech. It's also very diverse and people see things through many different lenses.
 
I haven't commented on this post until now!
I am real sick of schmoes raggin on the "RICH"
I see it all the time in society... It's those damn "RICH PEOPLE"
You know who I have to blame for not being "RICH"...ME! and me alone!
If I had spent more time studying and paid more attention in school, instead of partying and goin' hunting,I would had made a lot more of my self and I am pretty sure that holds true for everyone on this site!
It's not the rich....It's the lazy!!!!!!!!
 
30inchbucks, What color is the moon in your world? I realize that you reworded it to be in your favor and thats the problem with people like you. You can always twist things around and live in your own little fantasy world. The only good thing about your last post is that the truth behind your original post finally came out. Your pissed because you think that rich people have an advantage over you. Your ignorance amazes me. As for me missing the question about how to fix things, I am no clairvoyant but I did list a number of things that I felt were wrong and listed a number of possible solutions. Thats another problem with people like you, you see and hear only what you want to instead of listening to the voice of reason from all parties involved.

Drummond
 
I'm gonna have to agree 100% with drummond on this one. He obviously knows what he is talking about. The way you switch your thoughts just shows that your talkin out your ass. Too many people now adays think they know so much about stuff they know nothing about, and they end up looking like an ass. I've done it a few times.



-Cass
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-03 AT 07:11PM (MST)[p]Plumbing problems and auto repairs. If its broke you need to fix all the problems . the mechanic and the plumber will want to fix everything. Whats wrong with wanting to talk about all the issues. I just dont get why its so wrong to discuss chute planes out of order. I think everyone agrees there are bigger issues facing muledeer than chute planes . This thread was started by someone concerned with what he feels is a threat. I didnt see the original post pointed at any one person . It was a discussion about the commercialization of hunting and some new high tec methods that in his opinion made the trophy bucks too vulnernable. He was attacked immediatly as being a poor hunter who is jealous. He was dismissed as being too emotional about the subject. he was accused of disliking certain people who fly chute planes and making the thread a personal attack.He,s been called dense and dim witted because he didnt change his belief and agree that there are bigger issues and to quite worrying about what he sees wrong. Basically he was told to shut up and donate some money. Last I checked its still a free country where an idividual has the right to try and change what they see as wrong. He gave the addresses to use if you agreed. If you dont agree dont use the contacts. Its that simple. If you dont agree this issue is anything to worry about . Dont. If you do agree that the issues raised are serious then respond to the contacts. If cute planes were about any one person it wouldnt be worth discussing. If they were just about who were killing the biggest buck who would care. Its about muledeer vulnerbility along with atvs and too many roads and too many tags. It all matters.
 
Drummond,
First of all you don't know me and I don't know you. The truth has come out about you above and everyone can see it. Your a guide and all your friends are the culprits that fly the planes!!!!! Your comments mean nothing and your credibility is lost! You can't answer the question because there is nothing you can contribute other than the normal scapegoats! Come up with something original. All you can offer is a cut on others intelligence. Stop it your only showing your own! And as far as the rich I'm not talking about all the rich in the world. I'm talking about the one's with the money that are driving the decision making of the DWR. Also the one's that buy these tags and guides, plaster what they get all over the magazines for the rest of us to see posing like hero's, thinking that what they just did and killed is a trophy. My grandfather and his father would roll over in their grave if they knew what was going on here. You seem to want to turn everything into one big ranch with a fence around it. Heck, let's just cage them up, chase them down with planes strapped with rifles and machine guns, throwing grenades. What kind of sport is that? All your supporting here is driving the nail further into the coffin as stated above by someone else! The deer are already struggling especially the mature buck population so keep driving that nail until there is nothing left! I don't care how minute you think my post has to do with the decline in mature buck population, but the deer need all the help they can get right now. And they don't need idiots in planes chasing them down!!!! Keep cutting down my intelligence I don't care, the truth is in the posts above. The faucet wouldn't be leaking if the main water was broken go figure.
 
30 inch,
I think you need to go back and read this post in it's entirety. You single Drummond out and there are tons of us that totally disagreed with you. Go fight the fight you feel is important. Meanwhile the herds in Utah will continue to drop off. You don't offer any solutions. You seem to think that lack of habitat, predators, and over hunting is all a joke. There are way bigger issues facing the herd than some measily chuteplanes. And no, I don't own one. And I don't have "friends" that own one. I think that the above posts have overwhelming stated the the biggest problem your deer herds are facing is too many hunters, too many tags. But, you must like hearing yourself type because you haven't listened to what everyone's opinions have been.
BTW, Drum has not lost any of his credibility here. You have. Drum has done his time on this site, he has gained tons of respect from most on this board. You, my friend, haven't. Time to let the issue drop and get on with the enjoyment of talking with other muley addicts and dreaming about the big ones still roaming the hills.
 
Great comment fin little and well said. Thanks for your comment. You're right it comes down to one common goal that we all should have and that is doing something about the current situation because it's definately not working. It all matters it doesn't matter how minute something is. I appreciate all the comments from both sides of the coin. I am intelligent though and I have 2 higher education degrees to prove it. It's fun to speak up and state your opinion, that is the only way change can happen. This country was found on the concept of a boiling pot and that is what makes us so diverse unlike other country's. Everyone has their own lense they look at things through creating movements for change. Change is inevitable if we would only voice our opinion. So voice it! Anyone that has not commented please comment.
 
Great thread 30 inch I have enjoyed most of it. I have been lurking watching what folks talk about here for a while.
I have my opinion as to what is causing the decline in mule deer herds and I got to say its them dang democrats!!\
Really though I must say and not nesacarily in this order
lack of ethics, laqck of law enforcement,hunter accountabilty,habitat loss, drought ,predators coyotes are eating 20 percent of our fawn crop here to many hunters on pressured herds, etc.. the list can go on and on .
In Texas water can really make or break a herd of mule deer so water goes on the list too.
 
BCBOY,
So you want to step in and join in on the cut. Cut,Cut,Cut. What gives you the right to jump in and cut me down. Well your the one that needs to read the entire post because I never stated habitat, predators, and overhunting is all a joke. Your putting words in my mouth that I never said. Habitat is a problem but if there are no deer left to feed on it then what? Predators are a problem. Over hunting, too many tags are the major problem here. It's all a combination of problems. What do you think is going to happen when all the mature bucks are gone down here? Everyone's coming to Canada. You're if I'm not mistaken from Canada. I have been personally attacked by someone calling me dense and everything else. I will defend myself it is my right. Being from Canada have you ever hunted the desert country of UTAH or Arizona? Do you truly know what is going on down here or is your knowledge coming from the posts? You're up there living in the good old days as you say and how do you know the chute plane problem down here is measily? You don't unless you've been there and done that.And I have stated above there are too many tags. Hunters now days are better at what they do and technology has made it possible for hunter success to greatly improve over the years leading to more bucks being taken. Obvious solutions are tag cuts, limitations on technology used to take these bucks is another. Your perfect hunting world there in Canada won't last long once everything is dead down here.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-03 AT 10:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-03 AT 10:26?PM (MST)

30inchbucks,

This is not the only forum that you have completely lost it on chute planes and the people that utilize them(AZOD). Now that you see all of the responses you do a 180 and now its all about the drought, predation, #'s of tags and everything else with the chute planes being only a "minor" problem. You saw that you were getting nowhere and changed your tune. That kind of stuff just rubs me the wrong way, kind of like when one of my "rich" clients comes into camp and says he will shoot nothing less than 190" and the last day you literally have to hold him off a 170". If you could go back and read your posts. beginning to end and do so with an open mind you will see exactly what I am talking about. If you will go back and read mine you will see that I have not wavered from my original post. Now then, please pay attention to what I am about to say because I will not say it again and I really want you to comprehend this; THE STATES ARE MANAGING FOR QUANTITY AND NOT QUALITY, ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY! Until there can be a happy medium reached the numbers of quality deer will not go up, regardless of 4 wheelers, chute planes or otherwise.

For anyone interested here is a link to the other forum and the responses listed there. Almost identical to this one.
http://www.azodchat.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2719&whichpage=3

Drummond
 
txrightwinger,
Good comments. Ethics is a big issue. Here's some other thoughts to think about. If everyone was ethical there wouldn't be a problem. In the good old days hunters would go out on opening day of the season and get their buck and then keep going the remainder of the hunt and kill everyone elses buck for them. Deer were never tagged. How much of that is still going on out there? It's been passed down from generation to generation. How many dedicated hunters or general hunters for that matter do you think go out on opening day of the Archery season and kill their buck and then stop hunting? I'll take a guess at it not very many! There is to much incentive for them to hold on to that tag because of the special draw if they still have it at the end of the season! Why tag anything there is nobody around to enforce the law and if you get caught fines are minimal. The dedicated hunter tag should be called the dedicated poacher tag! This also needs to stop! I have been part of the dedicated hunter program. As long as it's there why not! Every hunter needs to take good long look in the mirror and ask theirselves if they are ethical in every way! I've got to go I'll check tomorrow for any additional posts. Thanks for your comments.
 
Drummond,
Think about it. Have I really lost it on these forums. Take a look at all the comments. If that is losing then I think you have the wrong definition of losing! I have never stated from the beginning that chute planes were the only problem. My main focus has been mainly about technology. There are some people on both sites that have made some great comments. You seem to only be focused on cutting me down. Keep cutting your only digging a bigger hole for yourself! LOOK AT ALL THE COMMENTS THAT IS MY DEFINITION OF A SUCCESSFULL POST post!!!!! LOOK AT ALL THE MOVEMENTS FOR CHANGE THAT ARE GOING ON!!!!!
 
30 something,
I'll tell ya one thing, when I see a well respected member of this site get slammed by a one time poster who thinks his Sh*t don't stink, I'm gonna jump in. Give me a break man! You come on here trying to stir up Sh#t (as you have done on several other sites). You swear you have a right to your opinion, but somehow I don't have a right to mine. You have not added anything positive to this whole debate. Every single post you've made has been almost exact word for word quotes. We have heard you loud and clear and most don't agree with you. But, you insist on bumping this old post and trying to raise a stir. If you actually read what I've said than you wouldn't jump all over me. But you seem to want a fight. So be it.
BC and Canada do not have the same system in wildlife management that many western states have. What we are doing here seems to be working pretty damn good. Maybe, you could open your eyes a bit and see that we have a model up here that is producing tons and tons of trophy bucks and something that you guys might want to try. Maybe you should be lobbying your government officials to wake up and smell the coffee about not selling your animals out.
Many times in your posts you have tried to down play loss of habitat, predators and many other issues facing the mule deer herds across the West because you were trying to keep the focus on the chute planes. I am not putting words in your mouth. Go back and read your own words. The whole title of this thread is about the decline of trophy mule deer, yet when you've had the issues thrown in your face, you've tried to bipass them and keep the focus on chute planes. Get over it man! Read what has been written and leave it at that. If you have somehow brought people over to your side with your well convincing arguments then be done with it. Get on with the other important issues like making some longlasting friendships with other mule deer hunters across the West and sharing photos and stories and lies. If you don't want to do that, then maybe MM isn't the place you want to be hanging out.
BTW, We will always have tons of animals up here regardless as to how many you've got down there. Read my other posts to figure that one out.
 
I guess I just can't get my hands around somebody who seems to think that these chute planes are no big deal. If you go back and read 30inchers' post, he asks the question: "Where have all the big bucks gone?" That is what he is talking about, and people who use chute planes are expressely going after mature mule deer bucks.

Death by a thousand cuts, that is what is going on with our mule deer herds, and especially the big bucks. The problem is that we all want to find the "silver bullet" to solve it, but we don't want it to interfere with our own hunting. There is no "silver bullet", it is a lot of different things. And yes, IMO, a few guides/hunters using chute planes to harvest big bucks for their clients is a part of the problem. We could argue all day about where it ranks in the arena of problems, but to be this aggresively against somebody who wants to take this fight up seems innappropriate. You know, they said the same thing about four-wheelers in the mid eighties' "don't worry about it, they aren't doing any damage", well as the nineties wore on, they are doing damage! Chute planes will never rise to the level of 4wheelers, but people are using aircraft to locate big game, it is not quite as rare as people here would lead you to believe.

I am not going to bash people with money, because they are not necessarily evil or anything, but as you ramp the dollars up and have more special draws, the incentive becomes huge for guides and their clients to use every means possible to harvest what they want. This is a business for these guides, ALL business' want to maximize revenues. I ran into a guy who has a "game farm" in south dakota, he has elk, buffalo, etc. You know what the most valuable animal there is in the game farm business??/ 180 class or better mule deer. Hands down. He said if he could consistently raise 180 class mule deer or better he would be a millionaire. A 180 class mule deer will sell for $35,000. Big mule deer are BIG business. As the dollars rise, the fish and game departments better keep a very close eye on what is going on becaue ethics will start to slip.

It is obvious that BCBOY is on huntsonora's side, but huntsonora is a guide, you have to remember that. I am not going to come down on him as hard as 30incher did, but if people think that guides are going to be the ones who provide the leadership that is necessary to solve the big buck and crappy mule deer situation, they are fooling themselves. The guides will always have access to the larger mule deer because of private ground that they have tied up, the fact that they guide for people in these special hunts, and the fact that they have organized, strong lobbyists who push for their way in the legislature. Guides are not all un-ethical, but when you have a client that just paid you $10,000 for a big buck hunt, the pressure is on. You know how much a cover photo on Eastmans is worth for a guide??

BCBOY, I don't know if you have had much hunting experience in the states, especially in the open range areas of the West where most of the mule deer live. But, I have been up to BC a lot in my lifetime, mostly fishing, and screwing around, and your terrain etc, is completely different up there. Bucks are not as vulnerable as they are in the arid areas of the states. I could take you to areas throughout the West that would make you sick as far as the amount of hunters, the lack of mature bucks and the overall zoo like atmosphere that goes on is some of these areas. The bigger bucks are very, very vulnerable. I have seen 3 four wheelers systematically work an area the size of 200 sections in a day, and come out of there with the 3 biggest bucks in the area. You are truly lucky to be hunting in Canada.

Chute planes are a problem, along with fixed-wing aircraft, I don't care if they only result in a few extra deer being taken each year, we all know that the people who are doing this are doing it to harvest huge bucks. If 30incher wants to take up the cause against them, then why would anybody in their right mind not want to support that? It isn't concentrating on the "wrong thing", it is one person advocating the elimination of one of those "thousand cuts" that mule deer are taking every year. His big issue is obviously chute planes, I say let him get after it. We are all passionate about different things. Big mule deer = Big dollars. That fact demands that each and everyone of us hunters, keep a close eye on what is going on ethically in the field, because if we don't, pretty soon, it will get out of hand. Lets be honest, the people using chute planes are the big guides in southern utah and arizona. A lot of arguing going on, but I can tell you one thing, if hunters rely on the Fish and Game departments and the Guiding/Outfitting groups to do what is best for our mule deer herds, we are in trouble. Both of those groups are out to MAXIMIZE their revenues. If we want to get things back in line, it has to come from the grass roots hunters out there. It can be done, and there are groups to do it, they just need support. If the average hunter does not get up and fight for what is right, we will get stomped on by the Fish and Game lobbyists and the Outfitting lobbyists.

muleyguy
 
30inchbuck has rolled his trojan horse right down Main Street and parked it in the middle of Mule Deer Heaven and succeeded into luring a whole passle of us into his web of liberal blather. His incoherant(and often misspelled and grammatically mangled) salvos indicate he's not interested in discussing any strategies that could have an impact on the intense pursuit of trophy mule deer. Rather, he'd like us to follow a path on the trail of trophy mule deer that would lead us in confusing circles and eventually have us turn on each other in a verbal blood-bath.

While I'm confident that just about every hunter that held a tag to hunt the Pauns and the northern Arizona deer herds held out hopes to be in search of giant mule deer, I doubt any more than a mere handful had access to or employed the use of a chute plane during the preseason scouting process. Since he considers guides to be the root of all evil and akin to Satan himself, I have to suppose that he harbors contempt for every guide that works the afore mentioned regions. Oh, wait a minute, I guess he'd probably only hate those who don't agree with his beliefs. That would make him just like the ACLU and the other folks trying to eradicate Christianity from our nation while we are scolded to embrace Kwanza. 30inch buck, just because you sprinkle your diatribes with exclamation points it doesn't mean you have any true passion for the subject matter; it just means you're trying to shout out everyone else's opinions. I find your class envy-baiting attitude offensive and challenge your "man of the people" claims of argument to be disingenuous.

Your visions of squadrons of the "Polish Airforce" ( a term coined by long time Strip guide, Don Martin, of AWO) swooping down on every mature buck in the southwest and firing a hail of slugs into its' hide from an airborne weapon have me scratching my head in amazement. Just how many of these contraptions have YOU seen while you were in the field scouting and hunting? Assuming you saw even one, did it have a gun mounted turret aboard or was it one of the more common rainbow chuted models? Oh I forgot, one is enough to ruin the future of mule deer hunting throughout the west. I have to think if you contacted the big game specialists within the western states and provinces and asked them what troubles the muley faces you wouldn't find a one of them that leapt up on a chair and screamed, "It's them damn chute planes!"

Your blanket accusation that most of those enrolled in the Dedicated Hunter Program are nothing more than poachers is further evidence that you're just lobbing verbal hand grenades in the hopes of blowing up this thread into an explosion of arguments.

I suggest a thorough reading of Dr. Valerius Geist's tome, "Mule Deer Country", for some insights into the biology and ecology of mule deer and mule deer country before commenting again. In the mean time, let's back away from the trojan horse for a bit fellas until we can wheel it outside the gates of the city and burn it to the ground.

Jim Rich
AKA AZBuckSnort and a FOH
 
The truth of the matter is a relatively simple answer, and a biological fact of life.

The fact is that ONLY improved habitat will increase wildlife numbers (pick a species).

Habitat decline in both quality (lack of forest fires to burn down old growth and create new browse, drought, you know the list) and quantity (we're to blame for that....human encroachment and urban development mostly) have had a devestating effect on a number of critters in most of our states.

Many of the facts listed in statements above are to some degree contributors to habitat degradation, but not solely to blame for it or for the lack of trophy animals. It's a much more complex and bigger picture than just blaming quads and parasalers, that's for sure.
 
Muleyguy,
I know what that country is like and know that trophy mule deer love the ugliest nastiest country out there. I have been in the air lots over the years in prime wildlife habitat. Helicopters are a way of life up here to get into the back end of nowhere to do forestry work. I know it is damn hard to see wildlife from the air. I've flown tons of hours over open high country, where muleys and grizzlies and goats abound. And have barely seen a thing. I seriously doubt that the chuteplanes that have been described as the root of all evil are as bad as 30 Something says. But that really isn't my point. The point is he is here to brag about a post that lasted so long because he keeps on bumping it and stiring up the crap. The point is this is a dead horse. We should all stop kicking it. I have jumped in to give an idea of what things look like when you actually manage for wildlife and not money. I think that is valid if you want to see wildlife management changed in your areas. I have also jumped in to back Drum, who I have a lot of respect for. From what I've read and seen of 30 Something, I don't have any respect for him.
 
I keep hearing people say, limit the number of tags. Imagine this...You are a father, with a son that just turned 12 (or whenever you think he's old enough to hunt). You apply for your tags to go on your first father and son deer hunting trip. You do not get drawn. No deer hunting this year.

Maybe next year is the same, maybe you do get drawn. Before you know it, your son is in football, has a girlfriend and got that after school job. He has only shared two ot three deer hunting seasons with you and kinda loses interest. How long will it take before hunter numbers are so low we do not have a voice in government. WE ARE A DIEING BREED!

Quality time in the mountains, hunting with your kids, is priceless. I would give up the world record B&C buck just for the opportunity to share a hunt with my kids. I can't have kids...but every year I sit on a mountain somewhere and wish I had a son or daughter to share that with me. Not every hunter needs to make book every hunting season. I think it's pretty selfish to say that we need to restrict hunters from enjoying their time in the woods just so a trophy hunter can kill a 30 inch buck every year.

I personaly, would just love to find a spot where I could go every year, and see deer. With a decent chance at harvesting a buck. I too would like to make book and I am saving my pennies for the trip of my dreams but in the mean time I just want to hunt deer.

It's already been said, but I think we should concentrate our efforts on increasing wintering grounds and predator control. Everywhere you look there are houses going up in canyons and on sage flats that used to support wintering deer. With these homes comes loose dogs that chase them all night and destroy their fat reserves. It does not matter if you have a 2 million acres of wilderness above 7,000 feet if they have no where to go once the snow flies.

Mike Henne
 
AZBS,
Im impressed! You've obviously had some formal education. Just because a man has some additional schooling, doesn't always make him prudent. Applying what one has learned, is a gift only a few will ever master. Constantly talking down to people is positively indecorous. It's not necessary to bag on a guy's "misspelled and grammatically mangled" comments. One's English skills has nothing to do with the future of mule deer. By the way, it appears that your altogether ILWH!
You know, a ?little birdie? once told me that nobody cares about the truth. He said ?the truth is boring!? And for the record, I'm not a FOH!
 

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