Utah, is this true?

T

timemachine

Guest
I hear that the DWR is proposing a new "youth" hunt that will be a draw for 18 yr olds and under to hunt 5 point or less bulls. What is known about this? Anybody?

Further if this is true-is there an Attorney on this site that wants to represent me in an age discrimination law suite against the Utah DWR? Holy CRAP! Get a clue DWR if you want to "hook" youth on hunting try having a hunt that you don't have to drag a 14 yr old kid around for days on end finding NOTHING to shoot at! They just aren't going to get it from us OLD guys telling them how it used to be. It's gotta BE. And P.S. they don't want to shoot a slick head-
 
I guess we should call you Little George. Let the youth have a hunt. Why shouldn't they? Youth hunts are a great thing.



It's Bush's fault!!!
 
I heard this same rumor last night. The way I hear it is they plan on opening these youth hunts up in limited entry areas, where there are currently plenty of mid-class (raghorn, satellite) bulls. If we are so worried about the lack of hunters in the future, why can't I draw a muzzleloader deer tag? And why does it take me 25 years to draw a limited entry bull elk tag? Trust me, there is no shortage of hunters. I am all about letting kids have the same opportunities as well, but I think they have gone overboard.

-Lucas :)~

http://www.monstermuleys.com/cgi-bin/stories/site.pl?page=lucasdavis10103
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-06 AT 10:56AM (MST)[p]So lets do away with all youth hunts everywhere so us adults can be greedy and shoot the big guys before our time runs out. To hell with the youth. Its all about us and what we want. Lets do that and see where hunting is in 5 years.


It's Bush's fault!!!
 
I have been a reader of this site for a long time but have not left any messages until I read this. Talk about getting a clue. Utah has a great youth hunt and anything they add would be even better. The current hunt is good if PARENTS do their homework. My 16 year old was drawn this year and he harvested a 332 gross 6x7 on the 3rd day of the hunt, so why don't you get a kid and take advantage of these hunts. It is a great time with your kid and it is more fun having them shoot something then yourself.
 
Yes it is true it is in the RAC info packs as a management hunt to be started slow on 3 or 4 units.
The elk committee approved a management hunt to increase oppurtunity that would be L.E., require the hunter to shoot an elk with 5 points on at least one antler. This hunt would not have a major affect on the trophy potential but would increase oppurtunity for elk that are otherwise not being harvested. And the many hunters who say they want more oppurtunity and are willing to sacrifice quality for oppurtunity. It would require an orientation and the checking in of the elk harvested or unfilled tags returned.
But some how when the DWR put out the information packs for bucks and bulls RACs in Nov. this idea morphed into a youth hunt that would not rquire points if the hunter harvests a 5x or smaller, and if by some miracle they happen to kill a 6x6 or larger then they would lose points and have the waiting period. I am sorry but this is not a good idea. How many dads are going to take there kid to San Jaun and shoot a raghorn when they can harvest a world class animal? Not many, I certainly wouldn't. I am not against youth hunters. But the DWR is way out of line on this. I have talked with a few members of the elk committee and they are completly blown away because this is not any where near what they worked out and proposed.
Dave
 
Nah- You guys missed the point. What in the heck is this proposal REALLY?? Come on THINK. Don't judge that I just want more opportunity for myself. If you think that's it you're off the mark. Come on. I HAVE kids enjoying the 18 and under opportunity. You say where are we going to be in 5 years -exactly. I guess it's about what quality of aniimal you want to harvest. You put in dutifully year after year you want the oppportunity to kill a decent critte? - if you don't go buy a Colo. voucher my heck! Too much pressure on a limited resource. Youth get the break because they want to SELL something but not PROVIDE anything -they want you to BUY a tag, but not KILL anything. I firmly believe that. Here's what I'd like to see - Before the DWR puts out this new hunt Show me this disproportionate number of 'raghorns' tha needto be harvested. Prove to me that it won't take away the successful limited entry hunters opportunity for the kind of bulls that are being taken NOW on the same units. They won't , can't and its crap!!
 
I read that in the paper this week. It said the DWR wants to cut the bull:cow ratio because it's too high in some places, like 1:1, while increasing the average bull age harvest by 1 year. Sounds like they're managing for more opportunity AND bigger bulls.
 
Not a bad idea from the DWR, but they need to lose their points reguardless of what they shoot. Russ
 
They are only giving these tags on FOUR units and they will be a SMALL number of tags. The reason for the incentive to kill a bull with five or less on both sides is to keep the quality up, the reason for not making it mandatory is because this would make felons out of youth hunters. The DWR manager said last night that the bull-cow ratio must be lowered, and he feels letting the youth go after these smaller bulls is a bonus. Hopefully the youth will kill smaller bulls, if not the DWR might have to look at other options.
 
I like the Youth Hunt on Any Bull units. I like the idea of youth getting 15% of the deer tags. I like the youth getting 20% of antlerless hunts.

I think this idea is not for the best interests of Utah hunters. I agree with the previous posts against the proposal. The Elk Committee never intended for these tags to be limited to only the youth. The tags were never meant to reinstate bonus points if a lesser animal is killed. The tags were meant to be for anyone who drew them, knowing it would be a hunt for bulls without 6+ points per side, and would then get some people out to the bonus point pools.

These hunts will occur on Utah's best units and for most people who draw the tag, they will hunt for the biggest bulls they can find. Dads will have their kids shooting the best bulls. The kids can shoot a 360+ bull now and loose their points or they can shoot a 5 point bull and never get the chance to shoot another 360+ for the next 50 years. My kid would be shooting the biggest bull we could find.

How does the word Raghorn get thrown around with these tags? These arn't raghorn bulls the DWR wants to eliminate. These are 6-15 year old 5 point bulls which are not getting shot by the trophy hunters on the current tags. Isn't a raghorn a 2-3 year old bull?
 
Why not a set aside based on ethnicity? Maybe one based on income or maybe gender or sexual orientation?

Some people hear "kid" I hear citizen. Game belongs to the public evenly. There's no clear and obvious basis for unequal treatment of any citizen trying access public services or public property. Having good intentions is not a sufficient basis for diparate treatment. Mark my words, eventually each possible interest of any definable group will want their set asside.

I can see providing some parent and child op not to hunt in a crowd. Fine, allow for a differnt season date on general units without getting into the rut. Don't make this an extra season for those participating just a parent/son/daughter season that has to be declared so that hunter numbers in that time frame are reduced. There'd be no extra hunter numbers overall, no advantage in hunting days allowed just a smaller # affield durring such hunts.

It's for the children.... jebus I get sick of every democrat in the world slinging that around as an excuse to confiscate my property, income, time or in this case public resource because who wants to be against the kiddos. I do. Let them learn the civics of being an equal citizen no one comes ahead of or before you.

Keeping youth involved is a matter for private enterpirze. MDF, SFW, large landholders, hunting equipment manufacturers etc to use their resources to provide for recruitment. I expect my government to make the playing field level and charity/private enterprize to persue and promote oportunity/recruitment.
 
The use of raghorn was wrong. The goal of the elk committee and the DWR was to remove the older bulls, like you say 6-15 years old, that have inferior antlers and are not currently targeted by hunters. The 4 units have plenty of these bulls. Their harvest will not hurt the trophy quality/potential of the units, but give more oppurtunity to hunters willing to draw these tags. And allow for better bull:cow ratios
The proposal to the RACs from the DWR does not realisticly address these issues except to lower bull:cow ratios. If passed as proposed it will only contribute to more of the same, hunters taking the best bull possible letting those large 5x's that are on every unit go.
If I was on the elk committe I would be furious at the DWR letting me waste my time, fuel and effort to be thrown aside and totally disregarded.
 
now you guys are getting down to the NITTY GRITTY- Amen Colville!!
Thank you 30plus I

'll say it again (no matter,& whatever good intention it started at) This hunt is a bad idea - shouldn't be!
 
If this proposal were to pass, I would encourage my 14 yr. old son to put in for one of these "youth tags". If he were able to draw it, and the 5 points on one side was optional, I would put in extensive time in scouting and looking for a true mature monster elk for him to hunt. Would it be worth him losing his 1 existing bonus point to shoot a 360+ bull and have to wait 5 years before applying again? He would be applying for LE deer the following year and not even look back, if he followed advice from his dad. I am not taking a side on this proposal, but am offering an honest opinion of what advice I would give my son if it passes. I suspect similiar advice would be offered to youth if this proposal is approved.
 
Absolutely a great idea. Why?? When these "youth" harvest a bull
when they are "under 18" they will no doubt, gain a greater ambition and passion for hunting.

Youth are the future of hunting and will be the ones defending our right and priveleges to do so in future.

This is such a ridiculous arguement. Arguing and whining that a 14 year may have a chance to shoot a raghorn. I would much rather my son shoot an elk than me.
 
I would rather my son did too. I don't feel that since I've managed to create a son that I have a right to put him in line ahead of the other thousands of adult hunters. He's a citizen with equal rights not special ones. It's BS pure and simple to jump to the head of the line.

If my son won't take to these traditions without getting a subsidy bull elk at the expense of others he can rot because I obviously didn't teach him anything. I'm not raising anyone that has their hand out. Maybe my kid should get to the head of the line on a sheep tag? Mountain goat? Moose? Oh now it's going too far? If we want our children to take up the traditions it'll be becuase we took them hunting to begin with. Because we committed our time as fathers and gave them an appreciation of the outdoors that isn't about the success of a given hunt. If we don't do those things we're doomed if we give away a few dozen bull tags we won't save a damn thing let alone our traditions.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-06 AT 05:58PM (MST)[p]Colville,

Go ahead and believe and do what you want. One thing I do not need is a lesson on "traditions" and advice on how to be "committed" to my children from someone on the internet.

This thread has nothing to do with "traditions" or how to be a parent. It has to do with providing an additional opportunity to youth, that they do deserve. More so than any adult!

To say youth ought to be treated "equally" as someone over 18 is ridiculous at best. Maybe you should pay full "adult" price the next time you take a minor to an amusement park, to dinner, school lunch...... Isn't this the form of discrimination you are talking about????
 
Hey wood... any of those things, movie tickets, restaurants, amusment parks... are those public resources? PRIVATE entities provide incentive to attract parents by making kids less expensive. I have NO problem with private enterprize deciding how to incent private purchasing habits.

This is about public resources of a very limited variety with a very high demand and then disproportionately distributing them based on an irrelvant factor, age. No citizen should be treated preferentially in hunting resources on such a basis.

I didn't say you weren't committed or a good parent, I said those are the things that develop tradition not Bull elk subsidies. Give the tags away or don't and it means nothing to tradition all it does is establish who gets oportunity. No citizen "deserves" to kill a bull elk more than another, period.
 
Colville,

Well I will just say I respectfully disagree with you. I can see
your point to an extent. I still feel youth need/deserve extra opportunities.

I am sure what I or you say will not change our opinions.
 
DAMN!!!

IT FEELS GOOD TO BE 14 AGAIN!!!

I SURE AS HELL HOPE I CAN FIND A 360" 5 POINT BULL IN MY FAVORITE L.E. UNIT!!!

DO YOU LOSE YOUR BONUS POINTS IF YOU DRAW THE TAG???

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING THERES STILL A CHANCE!!!
 
Col- Great responses.

Wood- You obviously enjoy hunting. How many special tags did you draw which gave you the opportunity to harvest huge, mature animals when you were a youth? I never drew one and I still enjoy hunting.

Bob- The kids get their points back and have no waiting period if they shoot a 5 point or less. They loose thier points (0-4) if they decide to shoot a 6 point or better.
 
IT SURE FEELS GOOD TO BE YOUNG AGAIN!!!

I'M APPLYING FOR THAT HUNT!!!

I'LL TAKE MY CHANCES!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING THE DWR DOESN'T KNOW HOW YOUNG I AM!!!
 
Col - you are on the money, very good posts!!!

I don't believe that providing the opportunity for a 14 year old kid to take a 360+ bull makes them love hunting (as described that's what this hunt will do) - in fact in the long run it's detrimental, trying to better that bull for years afterwards is very discouraging. It's too easy, they need to work and earn each point. I also don't feel kids really care how big the bull is - if going into the hunt they know the limitations - with any bull they will be happy.

The unit I read about was Monroe - with no spikes being taken each year, I'm good with the hunt. However, it should not be focused at the kids - but anyone should have the same chance to draw it, and if they do they lose their points. Plus - stay with 5 point or under.

If the hunt is targeted for the youth, the majority of age declining mature bulls will not be harvested. Due to the fact that the youth don't have the skills to take the wise old bulls.
 
Packout,

I drew one good tag as a youth. 1988, Pilot Mountain Elk. Not sure what that means to you, but I guess I can answer the question.

Yes I do enjoy, any hunt. Not sure how that has anything to do with the discussion but there is your answer....
 
When I was a kid you had to be 16 to get a big game tag. Then I turned 16 and they immediatly lowered it to 14. I was on my mission when they offered the lifetime tags and missed out on that one too. I draw a deer tag every other year at best. I have three sons that will soon be out in the field with me. If I don't get a tag they aren't out in the feild either. So the youth benefit from the adults getting tags.

I think most of us got hooked on hunting because we hunted with our dads while we were in our youth. My point is the youth don't have to get the tags to become future hunters. I'm all for the youth getting blood on their hands, but I don't think the first blood has to be a 350 bull.

We definitly need to harvest the mature 5 points on these units and lower the bull to cow ratio and discontinue their breeding. I say give five tags for mature 5 points, not raghorns, for who ever wants to put in and put cuffs on them if they shoot a 6 point. They also lose all bonus points. Then let the youth get in on ten to fifteen spikes.

I think this is a win win for all.
 
I think that the tag needs to be specifically outlined 5 point or smaller, and I agree if it is bigger there needs to be fines and penalties for taking a bigger animal.
I disagree with the whole idea in the first place because you know everyone will be chasing the bigger mature bulls, nobody will shoot a management bull if it is not outlined.
I think instead of having a management hunt to thin out the bulls, they should open up the whole state to the spike hunt, don't increase the amount of spike tags already given just spread the hunters out.
This would accomplish the same thing, you would thin out the bulls and lower the bull to cow ratio.
The late season as we know it is already a management hunt to some degree, it is hard to find some of the bigger bulls, but if you hunt hard enough you can find one. So most late season hunters are taking smaller bulls.
 
This a great thread going - I'm glad I asked the question. Now, How do we kill this proposal?
thoughts- My 14 yr old boy killed a 180 class buck his first year - ran right up to us. He dropped it at 8 steps away! He's never hunted since. I still hope he will some day. My daughter loves to hunt walks her but off right with me. Has vowed to better her pervious kill -never even took her gun off safety last year -killed a much better buck this year! I'LL SAY IT AGAIN- DWR DOESN'T NEED TO GIVE SPECIAL TREATMENT TO YOUTH -IT AIN'T GONNA GET THEM INVOLVED IN THIS! IT'S CRAP!
 
I am completetly against this proposal as currently written. My feelings are that if we are going to give the youth a hunt, give them a mature bull permit. This crap about making them shoot a 5 point is stupid. Give them X amount of tags and call it good. If the goal is to kill off these monsterous 5 points, designate tags for them. Allow anyone to apply for them. And in ALL cases points would be lost. Why restore points to someone who takes from the resource? If we are going to give back points, how about giving them to those who do not harvest an elk? My preference would be no one gets their points back!

This state has potential to offer more tags without hurting the resource and some how everyone is afraid to do it! I have heard this whole "grow the Pie" message for a number of years and all it has led to is 1 to 1 bull/cow ratio's and a very insignificant increase of permits.

The Rac's are starting up, get their and let your voices be heard. The time to act is now! Have a great day!

Chad
 
I agree with many others that in order for this to work, it would have to be set in stone as a 5 point or smaller bull, or fines and punishments would be assessed. If you open it up to losing their points for a 6X, who would give a rats a??. There wouldn't be a 5 point shot anywhere. If the plan is to harvest these genetically inferior bulls, then do it, not open it up to more big bulls being taken. And I don't think age should be a factor either. What about some of the olders hunters who realistically will probably never draw an elk permit before their maker comes by to pick them up.
Why not make it a youth, women, and senior hunt? And if a man wants to put in also, so be it. If you don't think the youth should have to wait their turn for a permit, what about the youth who now may be in their mid 20s who didn't get a youth tag given to them. I had to wait for my late fortys before I could draw a permit... And if you think that a youth killing a big bull will make him a hunter, think again. The thing that will make a youth a hunter is his personality and desire to hunt, regardless of whether he has ever killled anything before or not. My oldest son has never even killed a bull elk, but what does he do for a living right now, guides others for deer and elk, and is dang good at it. He never needed to kill to have the desire to hunt. He loved going when he was little and loved being in the outdoors, and loves seeing the animals and learning about them.
If they try and pull this thing off, they had better make sure they do it right or they are going to open a big can of worms..
 
The goal of these tags is NOT to get rid of the old/big five by fives. The goal is to LOWER the bull to cow ratio on these units. Period. The reason the DWR is giving an incentive for shooting a 'lesser' bull is to appease the general public. Basically this will give more tags while hopefully keeping quality up.
 
After reading through the posts on this thread, it seems that most of those opposed to this "youth hunt" are generally opposed to
A: Special treatment and or preference to youth
B: The killing of trophy elk... by someone other than themselves
C: The DWR running away with control of the world

First of all, the DWR basically has no legislative power in decision making as far as harvest numbers and hunt specifications. They submit their recommendations and the RACs take it from there. RACs have public meetings in which such matters are discussed and considered quite frequently. I have been to a number of them and have been quite surprised as to the lack of people that show up at them. The meetings are held in order to get public opinion and input in order to make decisions that adequately represent the will of the people. It's quite a simple extension of the democratic process that we enjoy in this country; representation.

Although I do agree that the love of hunting is something that is generally passed down from a loved one, it is OPPORTUNITY that serves as the catalyst for that exchange. Youth hunts are not created in order to give youth an "unfair advantage" or to somehow "hook" youth on hunting. These hunts are created in order to manage the resource and also to provide opportunity; not only to the youth but also to those who may be involed with that youth's hunting experience.

Who would complain about hunting with their son or daugher... whether it be for a pissy little "rag horn" or a world class bull? The idea is that it is THEIR hunt... the youth's hunt. It's an OPPORTUNITY for us to introduce the youth to the experience and the beauty of hunting. It is not an opportunity to spend three months scouting so we can take them to the biggest bull on the mountain and have them pull the trigger on it so we can throw it in the back of our truck and park in the Wal-Mart parking lot. What fourteen year old kid is going to be disappointed with a raghorn? If they are.... it's probably because the people around them have placed a little to much emphasis on the antlers instead of the experience.

Maybe THIS is why some youth are turned off by the idea of hunting? It has become a competition... just like everything else in this world. What do you guys remember when you think about when you first fell in love with hunting? Pulling the tape measure out as soon as you found the animal on the ground or:
your dad teaching you how to walk without spooking animals?
your mom showing you how to use a blade of grass as a cow call?
your dad showing you how to drop dirt from your hand to see which direction the wind is blowing?
your dad putting his arm around you walking back to the truck after you missed your first bull?

Hunting, in its essence, isn't about gross and net scores. All of you people out there that love it know that. This is why I find it really hard to believe that there are so many people out there that are so opposed to the youth getting more opportunity to fall in love with the same thing we have.
 
Indy, you took the words right out of my mouth. A little while ago someone on this board was saying that kids don't want to shoot does or cows, either.

What it comes down to is that their parents don't want them shooting does or cows. I'm betting the kids could care less.
 
Indy,

While I agree with your statement completly, the reason I don't support this idea is I believe that these kids should get the same opportunity as you and I. I do not believe they should be limited to a 5 point. ESPECIALLY if that was not the intent of these tags. The intent was to decrease Bull to cow ratios. Give the kids a real hunt. Give them 2% of the tags across the board, just don't hamstring them with a 5 point restriction. If the San Jaun, and other units are producing huge 5 points that no one will shoot, Manage those units with more primitive weapon tags. Primitive weapons hunters will be more likely to tag a "lesser" bull. Either that or do a draw for everyone specifically for these bulls. I just hate to see our youth given a hunt they can't capitalize on. Realistically, they will never draw out, give them a real mature bull tag.

Enough rambling, have a great day!

Chad
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-06 AT 08:17AM (MST)[p]The indian, you have a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. It was a nice turn to imply that those in favor of EQUITY for all hunters don't care about the children... ooooooh what about the children is a common refrain to shut down debate.

Try this... Establish that "youth" don't have oportunity now. See this is where you establish there's a problem that needs to be solved. Establish with facts that the youth aren't getting hunting chances and then establish how this LE unit giveaway solves that problem. Then establish that there weren't oportunities to be had except by giving away the most covetted and long awaited tags.

You've taken a catchy phase "youth oportunity" and used it to justify giving away tags that people have been kindly waiting in line their whole lives to get all without establishing there's: A. a problem, B. that this solves it or C. that there wasn't another solution.
 
The "Mangement" tags, which were reccommmended by the Elk Committee, were designed to reduce both the bull cow ratio AND remove lesser bulls. This would have retained the quality of the units. If they just wanted to reduce the bull cow ratio, then they would have just reccommended more regular tags. With the proposed idea, you do not have any protection for the quality. There was also discussion of how the proposed "Management" tags would allow people with few bonus points to draw tags. It was never proposed by the elk committee to have these tags be youth only.

This notion that the people against these tags are against youth is absurd. These are not management hunts for raghorn bulls. These are hunts for the best elk the hunting party can find and kill. Be it 4 points, 5 points, or 6+ points. Definately not raghorns (many people obviously do not know what a raghorn is). These hunts will allow someone to shoot huge bulls and wait 5 years to put in again or shoot almost huge bulls and allow them to do it again the next year.

Which brings us back to why have a hunt which one youth could draw every year from 14-18. One youth could draw 5 tags, shoot 5 point bulls for 4 years and a 390" the 5th year. This provides no equity for the other youth who may put in for these tags. No waiting periods for special tags is not how the Utah system is set up. Even general deer tags and Youth Any Bull tags have a waiting period.
 
If one truely believed in true EQUITY for all hunters,
they would not support the bonus point system. It's
designed to give preference to OLDER people. Where's
my lawyer.....??

"Try this... Establish that "youth" don't have
oportunity now. See this is where you establish
there's a problem that needs to be solved."

-In reference to the current bonus point system, and
the preference given to those with a greater number of
bonus points, it can be established that youth are
indeed at a disadvantage when it comes to opportunity.

"Establish with facts that the youth aren't getting
hunting chances and then establish how this LE unit
giveaway solves that problem."

-A LE youth hunt, limited to youth between the ages of
14 and 18 provides more opportunity on the basis that
the pool from which to DRAW a tag includes a smaller
demographic of hunters. Also, first year hunters are
not going to be competing with hunters with ten bonus
points for a tag.

My question to the board is:
Can it infact be established that the most covetted
and long awaited tags are going to be "given" away??

A youth LE hunt would only be an option for a hunter
for four years of their life. The rest of their life,
these hunters will be subject to regular draws.

Those that are worried about all the big bulls being
killed by youth; think about the statement. Youth
between the ages of 14 and 18 don't have a lot of time
and money to spend on spotting scopes, scouting trips,
and guide fees. They have school and football
practice during the elk hunts.

The fact of the matter is, elk numbers as well as the
bull/cow ratio are at an all time high in this state.
Bulls are dieing of old age. Why not take advantage of
the resource?

Pack makes some very valid points... it doesn't seem fair at all that a youth could draw five tags in five years. Have no limit as to what size of a bull the lucky drawee can kill and put a waiting limit on it as soon as the kid draws a tag.

We really need a detailed outline of the actual proposal.......
 
Faulty logic Indain:

"-In reference to the current bonus point system, and
the preference given to those with a greater number of
bonus points, it can be established that youth are
indeed at a disadvantage when it comes to opportunity."

Regardless of age on your fist year licensed you will be at the same disadvantage. If you start hunting when you are 18 you are at a disadvantage to people who started at 14 but you won't get the "special advantage" 14 year olds are being offered. The advantage or lack of it ala points is EVENLY and fairly distributed based on TIME put into the effort to draw. Kids won't draw fast with 2 pts nope, nor will a guy who get's his first license when he's 30 but you aren't going to allow for his being moved to the front of the line are you because this isn't about poor odds for new hunters. You've used a straw argument to basically say, I want kids to get this resource rather than other citizens who have waited in line.

Thereafter pointing out kids will draw faster is a duh moment. Of course they will but are there no other hunting ops for kids? If they can't draw an LE bull hunt they'll be disenfanchised from hunting in general? If the answer is of course not they can still hunt, then again you are saying that even though they can hunt that's not enough for you it's about you wanting this specific resource alocated arbitrarilly to kids.

Try this another way, what harm comes to kids if they dont' go to the head of the line? They have no hunting oportunities? So it's a soulution seeking a problem. You are emotionally wanting to provide for these young hunters but there's no logical basis on which you are doing it. You have a bias and you are willing to take from one man to give to another with less time invested, I'm not. By the way, how about the disimilar equity in TIME and money that 10 years of license, tag, and special app fees that have been paid to access the resource vs say a 14 year old?

I believe in giving gifts and charity, I just don't think I have the right to take my neighbors money to do it.
 
Indian is NOT taking from one to give to the youth. These are NEW tags that have not been given to another group and are now being taken away from you and I. The MAIN reason the DWR went with the youth is because it would be an ugly can of worms if they gave these NEW tags to archers or everyone, how to keep hunters from killing an illegal bull being the biggest issue. Hence, giving the tag holder the CHOICE 1)kill a five point and keep your points 2) kill a big bull and lose his/her points and wait five years. The DWR just wants the ratio reduced at a minium and if all the tag holders kill a small bull, BONUS.
 
If they do that they are basicly just adding tags to the unit. Who in there right mind is going to shoot a raghorn if they can shoot a monster and just lose their points? They need to harvest the monster mature 5 points and then let the youth shoot some spikes.
 
QUESTION!! So now are these "management bull hunts" or are they any bull hunts. It seems there is some confusion from reading the posts above. Some say it was meant to "reduce inferior bulls" and reduce rations, and others say to reduce ratios regardless of the size.
To say somebody doesn't care about the youth hunting is pure bull. My daughter shot a great 383 bull and it was one of the best days of my life. She beat dad's bull by 30+ points but did that matter? I'd love to have that experience with all my kids and hopefully the time will come after they have put in their time for the draws.
To say that people who disagree want to keep the bulls for themselves is bull too. Anybody who has drawn a LE permit knows that they will probably never have the opportunity again. Sure, the chance is there, but realistically it won't happen. I just think those who have put in for years should have their opportunity.
And to say that if it is left open to any bull, that a kid will shoot a smaller bull doesn't cut it either. You can sit there and say "I would let my kid shoot a smaller bull" but honestly, wouldn't you want them to kill a big bull?... The time and money deal doesn't hold water either as how many of theses kids would be paying for it anyway, and you know that dad, family, and friends, would have scouted and found some good bulls so that the first morning they would know where to be for a good bull.
And since I've gone this far, I may as well say that shooting a big bull their first year IMO would do more to hurt their desire to hunt than help. Their success would only go downhill when it comes to hunting spike bulls in the following years, versus shooting a trophy bull their first year.
Hunting big bulls spoils a person and hunting is really never the same when you have to go and chase anything else.
Nothing anybody says on here will make any difference, so go to your RAC meetings.
Like I said before, whatever way they choose, they need to be sure and go over this with a fine tooth comb and make it right the first time, or it will explode into a big mess.
 
I spoke with the Wildlife Manager for the Southern Region yesterday concerning the matter at hand and was finally able to get some facts on the matter.

The idea of management tags was recommended by the wildlife board due to the biologically unhealty bull/cow ratios on four of Utah's premium elk units: Monroe, Pahvant, San Juan (where the ratio is very near 1/1), and Southwest Desert.

In response to this problem and prior to this season, the Division of Wildife Resources recommended an increase of tags for these areas but the propositions were denied by the majority (or atleast the vocal majority) of sportsmen at rac meetings.

Therefore, the Wildlife Board has suggested management tags. These management tags will be available for the youth, aged 14-18. Upon drawing a tag, the bull killed will be one of the hunters preference. If the tag holder kills a five point bull (WITHOUT broken tines)and is willing to show it to officials at the regional office, that tag holder will NOT lose bonus points and will be eligible for the draw the following year. If infact though, the tag holder DOES kill a bull bigger than a five point, they will go on revocatoin and lose all bonus points.

The wildlife manager illustrated to me, from a biological standpoint, the need to harvest more bulls. Herd and population management is done primarily through cow hunts. When the bull/cow ration nears 1/1, the loss of cows becomes a very dangerous thing. As soon as there are more bulls than cows, reproduction is dramatically decreased and five to ten years down the road... your elk population takes a very serious plunge. No cattle rancher in their right mind would manage their herd around a 1/1 ration.

Biologically speaking, the harvesting of more bulls is extremely necessary, regardless of whether it be through the taking of small or large bulls by any age of hunter.

There was a RAC meeting in Richfield last night, did anybody make it to it?
 
I was there. I think SFW was on to something saying to make it mandatory they shot something smaller than a 6 point. If they do shoot a 6 point (unlikely), they would have to notify the dwr and the animal would be confiscated.

It also sounds like they realize that the majority of hunters can't tell what a "management" bull is and that they are ok with that as long as it fits the standard 5x5 or smaller.
 
The last two posts - these thoughts: 1st -I have to say I'm suspicious that the DWR listened to the majority and kept management on those units, cving to majority -my opinion they want to sound like they listen- most of the time they don't -made 'em sound good, though? 2nd -Why ( as in WHY! ! ! ) does it have to be a youth only opportunity? Here's a chance for all those guys who claim they want a chance to bust something , and don't care if it's a trophy bull or not- to get'r done! Win win situation - DWR gets tons more application fees. Youth AND older generation (who want the oppotunity )get to hunt those 'raghorns' and giant 5 x5 that are polluting the genetics. Draw odds increase for those who are wanting the chance at a once in a lifetime bull. ETC. (Now where do we fit this hunt in ? February? Just before antler drop?)

Not to get off the subject but what would a spike hunt do on these units?
 
After a little more follow up today I found out that the proposed hunt is a late season hunt, probably late November or early December. It also looks like it may be opened up to all hunters.... the only problem I forsee with that is this:

Let's say somebody has twelve or thirteen bonus points for one of these four areas... they are basically guaranteed one of these management tags if they put in for it... which in itself is not a problem. Although, if they kill a five point or smaller, they don't lose the points and are guaranteed their points again the next year.. which basically guarantees them ANOTHER tag.. and so on and so on...

I think a spike hunt would be effective if it were at a different time of year but late hunts are tough. I don't know much about the Monroe, San Juan, and Pahvant, but if you've ever tried to find elk out on the Peaks after October it gets pretty tough.
 
>2nd -Why
>( as in WHY! !
>! ) does it have
>to be a youth only
>opportunity?

Politics, pure and simple. That's not speculation, either - it comes straight from the horse's mouth.

It's the same politics that created the problem in the first place, as well as the "management hunt". It's the same politics that continues to obstruct intelligent management decisions based on biology, experience and a concern for the health and welfare of our elk herds.
 

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