Utah's New Tags Tempting........

P

Prism

Guest
LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-06 AT 08:26PM (MST)[p]OK, if the new "management" hunts do not affect bonus points (other than not receiving one for the year of drawing, and unless you kill a 6x6 or larger), I'm seriously considering it.

I'm stuck in the upper end of no mans land with 11 points. As it is I could likely draw a good tag in the next few years shoot a nice bull and kiss LE elk hunting in Utah goodbye-I'll likely never draw again in my life.

With this new hunt I "may" be able to draw a few times (cause I'm guessing not many with 10+ points will be putting in), I'd get to kill a few good mature bulls as longs as they're not a 6x6 or bigger, and possibly hunt mature bulls on some of Utah's premier units several years.

Sounds like a winner to me:)!

Honestly I think I'd rather shoot multiple big bulls that may not score good than one big bull and call it good........

I've seen some 5x5, and 5x6's that I'd LOVE to shoot!

The more I think about it the more I like it;)

Shoot, I wouldn't even have to compete with all of the guides either. Atleast I wouldn't think I would......
 
The bull must have 5 point or less on BOTH sides, by legal definition an elk with 6 or more points is considered a 'trophy'.
 
Prism!!!

I'M WITH YOU BUD!!!

YA SEE!!!

I'VE GOT THIS NEW COOL TOOL!!!

ITS AN 18 VOLT CORDLESS GRINDER/SANDER!!!

COMES IN REAL HANDY WHEN NEEDED!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING IF THEY CAN FLY THEIR PUPE SHOOT PLANES I CAN USE MY GRINDER WHEN NEEDED!!! :D :D :D :D
 
C'mon Prism. Go for the gusto! Nail you a 6X and join the "No Points Club" with me! Actually, I am enjoying having a big Utah bull and no points. There are some great hunts to do besides Utah elk! I can focus now.

While you are chasing bulls Prism, send your camera crew along with me in a big buck hot spot you know so well.;-) If you got any 180+ mule deer suggestions I am all ears buddy! It is all about the deer now.
 
Now you got me thinking I don't want to be messing around with stinking bull elk when I should be putting in for something I'd take over any bull elk-BIG MULEYS!:)
 
From the sounds of it, it didn't pass like expected? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think you get to keep the bull if he's bigger than a 5x5, and you lose everything, etc. Alot to give up for a 5x5.

I'm still not 100% clear on these dumb things. Guess I'm anxious to read the exact wording in the procs.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
ktc-

I'm in the waiting world too and my focus is 100% deer! :) Let these guys chase stinkin' bulls, it's all about the Mule Deer now!

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
I'm more exited about the combo Deer/Elk for the Northern unit! I WILL DRAW THAT!!

:( Somebody didn't like bouncing betty :(
 
So correct me if I'm wrong...

Lets say I have... 5 points and put in for this 'managment hunt' and draw. Why don't I just shoot a monster and call it good? I'll likely never draw a LE tag anyway, or at best one in my life time so why not just get it over with and not have to wait 20 years?

Maybe I don't understand how it works. Is the tag good for a 5 point or smaller bull anything bigger is off limits? Or if I shoot a bull bigger than a 5point then I loose my points?
 
You can shoot a monster don't plan on keeping it though. You will lose your points and the elk unless it is a monster five point.

I wonder how the percentages will affect a group applications. If a max holder splits his points with a youth, the youth is probably almost guaranteed. I guess we will have to see how the draw on it will work when the proclamation comes out.
 
How about this dandy scenario (UDWR makes me sick)--

Say Dad has 12 points, knows he won't draw for a year or two on his premo unit. He puts in with 14 yr old son. They both draw tags, dad turns his tag back in, get his points back + plus another for this year.

Result: Son keeps getting management tags every year and dad keeps building his points.

The DWR's loopholes are PATHETIC!

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
This is what I think about turning tags back once you have drawn the permit.It should cost you 2 bonus points if you decide you dont want to hunt the year you draw.It is to easy to see how antler growth will be for the fall hunts and decide after scouting that it would be wise to turn a tag back.I do not know of anywhere else talking other states that this is allowed.DRAW A PERMIT FOR A GIVEN YEAR, HAVE THE CHOICE OF TURNING IT BACK IN, BUT AT A COST.It should cost at least 1 if not 2 bonus points to get out of the hunt you drew.To bad if it may be a year of less antler growth hunting is a gamble no matter how you look at it so if you draw, the cards are dealt and go out and do your best or it could cost you a couple points to turn the tag back.This makes sense to me on getting the odds a little better year after year.There would not be near the max bonus point holders for elk thats for sure.
ODDNUT 1 You have made a good point on these management bull hunts also.
I like the one about the grinder would come out once a big 5x6 is killed pick the smallest point on the 6 side and grind it off stain it and you are set.Have the point repaired after the fish and game check your bull and bingo your huge bull is repaired that easy and you can get to go again the next year using half of dads max points he just turns his tag back in and keeps building points until he knows he wants to go for himself.
Endless Loopholes on this new hunt.
 
Hmmmmmmmm lets see. I've got 11 points and my 73 year old father is just getting back into the elk game. If I put in with him will we go into the set aside tags for seniors???

He can go hunting and if I don't find the 5x5 I'm looking for I can turn my tag back in??? It'd be an expensive way to do it, but atleast the old man can hunt elk......

Honsestly I think the whole thing is a cluster, but that doesn't mean I can't take advantage of it.

I'm really thinking about the archery hunt on the San Juan. You can't tell me that wouldn't be one hell of a hunt even if all you could shoot was a 5x5!:) Talk about a neat experience!

Getting to hunt the San Juan during the rut and keeping all of my points-sounds good to me.........

I'm thinking that 6x6 and larger bulls that are shot and confiscated will be auctioned off anyways. In theory a guy could shoot one and buy it back at auction..........

Kind of like a license to poach....cluster, cluster, cluster....

Shoot, a guy wouldn't even have to deal with all of the pressure associated with limited elk tags.

"What do you mean you only shot a 380 bull......?!"

Some serious thought went into this deal......
 
Its a management hunt, simple as that. They should just make it like any other LE tag, you use your points, and you shoot a 5pt. Plenty of guys out there that would do it.

:( Somebody didn't like bouncing betty :(
 
257Tony-

Couldn't agree more- why complicate it? People crying for opportunity, more youth/senior hunts, etc... all would be happy. But NO, they have to make it complicated.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-06 AT 04:51PM (MST)[p]Is it more of a management hunt or opportunity hunt?

I thought the whole idea was to kill off some of the older bulls with inferior genetics, this would include all sorts of bulls including bulls with more than 5 points per side.

The vast majority of 5x5s are going to be young bulls that may have potential to be the 400" bulls that put so much money into the DWR and a handful of Utahn's pockets;)

As the hunt sounds to be set up now, it's a raghorn hunt.

The majority of elk shot are going to be young bulls that more than likely have the potential to be great bulls in a few years.

If it was a just a management hunt then guys should be able to just kill management bulls, which includes a lot of anlter confingurations.

For as much good as it's going to do from a management standpoint it may as well be a spike only hunt.

I see the opportunity. I don't see the management working out like we've been told it should.....
 
JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

JUDAS!!!

I GUESS NONE OF THEM BIG STINKY BULLS WERE NEVER A 5 POINT OR SMALLER BEFORE THEY GREW UP???

THATS ALL WE NEED IS MORE PRESSURE IN THEM L.E. UNITS!!!

EVERYBODY THAT DRAWS A PERMIT BRINGS SEVERAL OF THEIR BUDDIES AS IT IS!!!

WHERE IN THE HELL IS THERE GONNA BE ROOM FOR THIS HUNT???

MAYBE WE COULD ADD PUPE SHOOT HUNT FOR THE BOYS THAT LIKE TO USE THEIR PUPE SHOOT PLANES!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING MY POINTS ARE GETTING LESS VALUABLE BY THE YEAR!!! :D :D :D :D
 
No, not a Bull quality management hunt, its a DWR money management hunt ;-) Call it what you want, but not losing points when you get the tag makes it teh ghey.


:( Somebody didn't like bouncing betty :(
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

The elk committee recommended this to be a 'management' hunt, the DWR said they dont care what quality of bulls get killed, they just want to lower the bull to cow ratio on these units. I understand there are other units being looked at closely for the same type of hunt in the future. I guess its somewhat of a win for those of us wanting quality high, they could have just upped the number of LE tags during the rut, this way atleast a few smaller bulls will be harvested instead of killing all the big bulls off these units.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

BUT HOW MUCH HUNTING PRESSURE DO WE NEED IN L.E. UNITS???

THEY JUST CAN'T STAND NOT TO CONTINUE TO ADD MORE PRESSURE TO THE HERDS!!!

NOW THEY'RE AFRAID SOME OF THESE YOUNGER BULLS MIGHT BECOME TROPHY CLASS & THERES ALWAYS A CHANCE OF ONE OF THEM DIEING OF OLD AGE,WTF???

THE ONLY bobcat NOT REALLY SURE WHAT TO DO IF "THEY DON'T CARE WHAT QUALITY OF BULLS GET KILLED"!!! :D :D :D :D
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Boy, I am glad I have passed the torch to you on this issue bess!

As I sit idly by, I can see the point of lowering ratios, but come on folks! This so called management hunt seems way over complicated! They need to focus on the management bulls. You guys make great points. I cannot imagine a guy with 5 points not seriously looking at this chance?

Take away points if you draw. Period!
Let archers, old folks and kids shoot them.
Educate them as to what a management bull looks like.
Make them shoot a management bull. Nothing else! No either/or's about it!

Now, do a deer management plan for us guys who are "pointless." Me and Kirt need bucks. Bess, you take the bull problems! Ha! Prism, you can help him. Seems like you do just fine with the deer.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

This hunt is targeting a select few animals. After they are killed I see it being another hunt for smaller bulls. These herds are not going to be able to support over 100 bulls to 100 cows without a crash of the herds. I understand you guy's not wanting more pressure on the units, but if we don't listen to the biologists, we could lose these herds/bulls. Calf production will soon slow and the herds will be in a downward cycle. I am no biologist but I have to believe them. They have the knowledge that most of us don't. Besides, it won't be that many tags. I am disappointed if they did in fact allow them to keep their points and no waiting period. That is bull.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Silentstalker!!!

CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG!!!

WE'VE BEEN LISTENING TO BIOLOGISTS FOR ALOT OF YEARS NOW!!!

DO YOU SEE THE FRICKEN DEER HERDS/UNITS DOING AS WELL AS THEY SHOULD BE???

I'LL GIVE CREDIT ON THE HENRIES,STILL NOT VERY DAMN MANY DEER THERE THOUGH!!!

YA,I KNOW WE'RE TALKING ELK BUT DAAAAAMN!!!

WE INCREASE PERMIT NUMBERS IN L.E. UNITS A FEW YEARS AGO!!!

THEY ISSUE FRICKEN COW PERMITS IN BIG NUMBERS & BICH WHEN BULL TO COW RATIO'S ARE NOT WHERE THEY THINK THEY SHOULD BE!!!

THEY ADD A MUZZ ELK HUNT IN THERE!!!

THEY ADD A LATE RIFLE HUNT IN THERE!!!

NOW THEY ADD A MANAGEMENT BULL HUNT IN THERE!!!

JUDAS FRICKEN H PRIEST!!!

CAN ANYBODY SEE WHATS HAPPENING HERE???

ktc,Rut,RIMROCK & A FEW OTHERS ARE SITTING BACK THINKING:DAMN I'M GLAD I'M DONE WITH THIS BULLSHIP!!!

BUT THEN AGAIN THERES MS. ktc & OTHERS WONDERING WHAT THE HELLS GOING ON???

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING THATS ALL WE NEED IS A FEW MORE HUNTS/SEASONS IN THIS STATE,JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Last year the big push was to lower the age objective and up the tag numbers. The majority spoke up aginst it and wanted to keep the age objectives were pushed back up where they should be to maintain quality.

In the mean time they issue 200 San Juan, 80 Pahvant and 150 SW desert cow tags. At the same time they are saying the bull cow ratios are out of wack and come up with the management hunt which in reality is just an opportunity hunt and a back door way to issue more tags.

Every year we get a new excuse to raise permit numbers. Last year it was bulls are dieing of old age. This year it is bull/cow ratios, any ideas for next year?
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Antler1!!!

YOU'RE RIGHT ON!!!

COLORADO IS THE ONLY STATE THAT POUNDS GAME HARDER THAN UTAH!!!

BUT WE'RE NOT FAR BEHIND!!!

YA,THEY'LL ADD SOME MORE HUNTS NEXT YEAR,NO DOUBT!!!

DIEING OF OLD AGE MY ASS!!!

SURE IT HAPPENS BUT DON'T WE HUMANS DIE OF OLD AGE???

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING THE UDWR BETTER COME UP WITH A BETTER BATTLE PLAN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

That was one of the worst excuse's yet. I've never found one of these dead over the hill bulls and I spend 12 months a year roaming the hills.

My boys horse is 22 Years old. Using the old age logic I better go put a cap in his ass before he dies.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Antler1!!!

I'VE FOUND MY SHARE OF DEAD ANIMALS IN MY DAY!!!

BUT I'M YET TO FIND ONE YET I FIGURED JUST DIED BECAUSE HE OUTSMARTED THE UDWR & LIVED FOREVER!!!

THEY HATE THAT!!!

THATS MONEY LAYING ON THE GROUND DON'T YOU KNOW???

THROWED OUT THE WINDOW SO TO SPEEK!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHAT WILL BE NEXT???
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

It does sound complicated. I heard that bonus points did not matter on the mangement elk hunt. A person with no points would have the same chance as a person with 12 points. You don't recieve points in this draw. Just wondering what is the truth?? How is this management hunt going to be. I also heard it was a 5 point by anything and 5x5 point or smalledr. Does anyone know for sure??? Thanks
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-06 AT 12:38PM (MST)[p]You will lose your points and be on a waiting period like any other LE hunt. You can kill a bull with one antler sporting 5 points, doesn't matter on the other.

This is straight from a couple guys that took the TIME TO GO TO THE WILDLIFE BOARD MEETING INSTEAD OF BITCHING ON THE SIDELINES........
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Thanks for the info Pred. I'm not complaining. just want to know the facts.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

You guy's complain about these hunts, you complain about cow hunts, you complain about more tags. Some of these herds are way out of whack. They have over 100 bulls to 100 cows. These herds will start producing less elk which will hurt the herd overall. They are currently killing cows to keep the herds at objective because you won't allow them to kill very many bulls. This hunt will not hurt the herds. I went to the RAc's and the Wildlife Board meeting. How many of you did? Where were you when the public got to speak? That is what I thought. None of us are biologists. And Bobcat, this is not the deer herd. The problem is too many elk, NOT too FEW deer. Totally different problems with much different solutions. Lighten up, it is only a few tags and won't impact your bulls, and sure as heck will not turn Utah into Colorado! Have a great day!

Chad
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

I would say the the Elk herd on the Southwest desert is in desperate need of help. There are as many bulls as cows on this unit. They have killed around 40 bulls a year out the for the last few years and around 400 cows. There are certain areas in the unit where you can't find a 6x6 bull. Every bull that you see is a 5x5 or 5x6. These bull will never be anything more. Everybody that draws a tag wants a 6x6 so these are the bulls that are left. It would be better to hunt these bulls earlier in the year. I would love to hunt these bulls with a bow.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Well Ktc, first and second hand. Firsthand by me at two RAC meetings, secondhand on the final decision by the Board....double bam!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

>Well Ktc, first and second hand.
> Firsthand by me at
>two RAC meetings, secondhand on
>the final decision by the
>Board....double bam!
So people are gonna lose their points for these tags? I sure hope so, because I see these hunts as being opportunity for guys with less than a zillion points, like me :) I would love to shoot a 300+ 5 pt bull, they sure look good on the wall.




:( Somebody didn't like bouncing betty :(
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

My question to those against these tags is, what do you want the DWR to do? You do NOT want them to issue more bull tags, you do NOT like them giving out cow tags and 'creating' the ratio problems. These units can hold X number of elk, either we kill more bulls and fewer cows and lower the quality, or we issue 'management' tags and kill fewer cows and KEEP the quality. I do not see any other VIABLE options, atleast they are not recommending a slaughter of all the big bulls on these units to lower the bull ot cow ratios.
 
Has there been any estimate of the number of management tags per unit? Two or three? 20-30? Also will the trophy tags be increased as well?
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Pro,

Here are a couple VIABLE options.

#1 Don't kill a bunch of cows at the same time your saying the bull cow ratio is 1 to 1. All this does is lengthen the time it takes to correct the ratio. Yes I know that these units can only support X number of elk. We have all been told how much money has been going into habitat to support more elk. Maybe its time to raise the herd objectives.

#2 Leave the tag cap at 11,000 but include these four units as spike units until the ratio is corrected. (I already know your hate this one)

#3 The elk committee recommended a management hunt to take some bulls that were old 5 points or genetically inferior. How about sticking to the recommendation. With this so called management hunt they might as well just stick the tags with the other late or archery hunts and save their self an enforcement nightmare.
 
Antler1, the herd numbers are what the DWR wants based on several factors, none of which is appeasing you or I. Not all of the money goes to increase numbers, some of it is aimed at improving the health of the herds.

I agree the proposal that came from the elk committee was better, but the DWR didn't agree with you and I, the committee agreed to let the DWR management 'manage' the elk based on recommendations from the committee. The DWR does NOT care what quality of bulls are harvested, they just strongly believe the bull to cow ratios must be fixed soon. They are attemting to appease both the quality guys and the hunters screaming for more tags. I think this is a good start, not a cure-all solution. Lets see how it works this next year and see if improvements/alterations are needed.

3point, the number of management tags will be between 40-50% of the tags issued as LE tags. These units issue a small number of tags so the numbers will be low. The DWR will look at other units with high bull to cow ratios for next year as well.
 
Dang I leave for a couple of months and roll right back into the same soap opera I left back then.

Welcome to BrokeBack General Hospital, starring as Luke, BESSY aka the Altamont ATTITUDE. Starring as Laura everybody else because we are all BESSY'S Bitc* untill he gets the 400 bull that he is owed.

Pretty good wildlife meeting and the presentation on
elk herd numbers and the effect that having the bull to cow ratio's out of whack does to the herd. Turns out the higher the big bull numbers are the lower calf recruitment is once you hit the break even point it spirals down hill pretty quick.

These models were set up by ACTUAL BIOLOGISTS not eastern Utah garbage men ( that was a pretty funny thread )

What the hell do you guy's want. We've heard for years that
" we need to grow a bigger pie " and now the pie is so big it's flowing out of the pie tin we hear " if ya just want to kill a bull go to colorado "

I'll ask ONCE again are we managing with the biological best interest of the resource or are we managing for inches
and ego's????
 
Gordy, I am in favor of a balance of herd health with some monster bulls. I think we as hunters can have our cake and eat it to. It just takes some pain for all to get there, I don't think we can kill only a few bulls and a ton of cows and have healthy herds, but I do NOT want to see the quality that has taken so long to get, to be wiped out because of RATIOS. I think some management tags issued to a select few can/should help balance the herd. I don't think killing some five points, old or young ones, will hurt the quality, but WILL help the health of the herds. I would rather see spike tags done away with and issue 'management' tags to those who would be completly content will harvesting a five point bull. Just keep these tags to different seasons from the LE seasons. THis would give more mature tags to the general public and maintain the quality for those of us willing to wait several years for a chance at a monster. Therefore I believe we can manage for BOTH "inches/egos" and "the biological best interest of the resource".
 
Check back tonight Bart, once BESSY gets off the back of the truck the fur will be flying, if you think you and I stir it up from time to time you ain't seen nothing like BESS on a 400 bull rant.

Quality will be there, there are several hunters just
like me that would like to shoot a mature bull ( 5x5 ) I am not of the opinion that I need to wait 30 years to draw and expect to see stinky bulls running all over the mountain. I agree
a good common sense plan with increased opportunity and without the ridiculuos point restrictions would move people through the draw quicker and can be adjusted as the inch boys see fit. If ya absolutely need to kill the new world record HUNT HARDER.

Ty will tell you that the fallacy of 400 bulls behind every bush is B.S. but the pig that Ty ended up killing would make 99.9999% of the hunters in Utah happy just like it did him
and just like it would you me and every other person that would have the chance.
 
You guys! I try to leave and I get sucked back in!

I always said 350+. I got that done and am very happy. There were a few 400 type bulls on the mountain, and would have loved one, but I was not passing no way! I did hear one guy say on my unit that his buddy had a tag with max and he has not seen a 400 scouting. He was thinking he would turn his tag back? Kind of wierd/stupid.

One thing to remember, and I know how it feels all too well, changes when you are on the eve of drawing tends to rile guys up. It did me. In that sense, I do not blame guys that worry about potentially damaging policy.

1 to 1 ratios? If it is the case I can see the problem. I have heard two arguments, don't shoot so many cows and take out the "management" bulls. I do not see the problem of culling the herd, but will it truly happen? I like the great quality. If the DWR can pull off a true managemnet style hunt go for it if the ratios are messed up.

In short, I would like to see healthy herds and great quality. I feel for those that need to wait and those who have a large investment in points. I hope mrs. ktc can draw this year. Utah elk is a draining subject! Kirt, Prism, and myself are planning a mule deer hunt. Where we going guys?

I need to go to the deer forum and argue deer management. I love being a computer biologist!

I will agree with you all, the fur is about to fly! Ha!
 
I think it's going to be a loooonnnggggg winter......

Hope shed season gets here quick.

Oh wait, that's illegal........
 
JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

JUDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS!!!

THINGS WERE HALF DECENT AROUND HERE & LOOK WHO THE HELL SHOWS UP!!!

SLICKWILEYWAPATI!!!

LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING YOU AIN'T GETTING THROUGH YOUR THICK SCULL!!!

THESE LOWLIFE FRICKEN COW KILLER HUNTS HAVE DECIMATED THE COWS,DO YOU FRICKEN UNDERSTAND???

DO YOU FRICKEN UNDERSTAND WHEN YOU SHOOT MORE COWS THAN SHOULD BE SHOT WHAT THE HELL HAPPENS???

I GUESS YOU DON'T!!!

SO I'LL SPLAIN IT TO YOU!!!

YOU END UP WITH A BULL TO COW RATIO THATS OUT OF BALANCE!!!

CAN YOU FRICKEN FIGURE THE MATH???

BIOLOGISTS MY ASS!!!

IF YOU THINK OUR BIOLOGISTS ARE SO FRICKEN HOT WHAT THE HELLS GOING ON WITH OUR DEER HERDS???

WAKE THE ###K UP!!!

DON'T MAKE EXCUSES wiley!!!

THE BULLSHIT WON'T WORK WITH ME!!!

IF YOU WANT TO GO PISSCUTTIN & EVIDENTALLY YOU DO JUST BUY A GENERAL TAG & GET YOURSELF A PISSCUTTER,IT DON'T TAKE MUCH OF HUNTER TO DO THAT & YOU DAMN SURE DON'T NEED AN L.E. PERMIT TO DO IT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT YOU'LL NEVER BAFFLE WITH NUMBERS FROM THE BIOLOGISTS,I KNOW DAMN WELL WHY THE RATIOS ARE ###KED UP,YOU GONNA LISTEN TO YOUR SUCK ASS BUDDY BIOLOGIST OR ME???
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

BESSY How ya been compadre?? The cow argument is
as you explained, excrement of the male bovine.
so to get a 1 to 1 ratio, basically you are telling me that
the BIOLOGIST buddies of mine went in and killed enough antlerless elk to make this happen?? Bro are you related to Art Bell?? YA got any flying saucers circling the northeastern
nomad region out there?? I know why the ratio's are out of whack because BIGFOOT is eating just cow elk. Now it's the wolves.
No it's gotta be Bush's fault.

BESSY you don't control herd size by any other means except killing females. I've never seen a male anyhting give birth
( But I'll bet Janet Reno or Hillary probably could )
Hell you INCH guy's won't let hunters kill elk, except for the one's that are hand picked by a higher power. I wonder if the inch freaks will go as far as to paint all the NON PISSCUTTERS blaze orange so they don't get killed by us lowlife pisscutter hunters.

Admit it, you have been putting in for so long we OWE YOU A
399 INCH BULL!!! Things could be so much different if you would give nature and sound biology a chance.

Like I said we have grown a bigger pie, and apparently if ya just want to shoot a bull ya don't even have to go to colorado anymore just head to the absolute highest premium quality elk units in the world.

One other question, Since I'm now limited to a lowlife pisscutter am I going to pay for a lowlife pisscutter or a
BESSY QUALITY 401 BULL ???

YA KNOW I STILL GOT YOUR BACK ON EVERYTHING BUT THIS TOPIC
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

wiley!!!

DON'T TELL ME WHAT HAPPENS & WHAT DON'T!!!

I SEEN ONE OF THE BIGGEST ELK HERDS IN THE STATE DECIMATED BY PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!!!

I'M NO INCH GUY!!!

NOBODY OWES ME ANYTHING!!!

NOT EVEN A 399" BULL!!!

THE BIOLOGY & THE MANAGEMENT SUCKS!!!

IF YOU'RE HAPPY WITH A DINK BULL JUST GO BUY A GENERAL TAG & BE HAPPY!!!

YOU'VE NEVER HEARD ME SAY HE'S GOT TO BE A 400" BULL,NEVER,ALTHOUGH IT WOULD BE NICE BUT I SURE DON'T EXPECT IT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat KNOWING FOR A FACT YOU'RE BEING BRAIN WASHED BY THE BIOLOGISTS IF YOU'RE SUCKING IT ALL IN!!! :D :D :D
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

wapati!!!

ONE MORE QUESTION!!!

HOW MUCH MORE PRESSURE DO L.E. UNITS NEED???

ADDED A MUZZ HUNT!!!

ADDED A LATE RIFLE HUNT!!!

ADDED COW HUNTS!!!

NOW MANAGEMENT HUNTS!!!

NOW A FIVE POINT HUNT!!!

OR SHOULD I SAY A PISSCUTTER HUNT???

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHY ANYBODY WOULD WANT TO HUNT PISSCUTTERS IN AN L.E. UNIT???
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

wiley!!!

WAITING FOR YOUR NEXT REPLY!!!

WE USUALLY GO MORE ROUNDS THAN THAT IN ONE NIGHT!!!

FALL ASLEEP OR WHAT???

BY THE FRICKEN WAY,WHY THE HELL ARE YOU DRAGGING OCCUPATIONS INTO THIS???

THE ONLY bobcat!!! :D :D :D
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

4:00 am, Damn BESS you must have waited a long time for that reply. Brotha you are making my point for me, why does it have to be 50 different hunts for elk??

How about Archery, Muzz, then any weapon in that order??
How about letting a regulated number of hunters kill a regulated number of elk. We've Jerry rigged ourselves
into this B.S. and now it is only getting worse.
Look at the Cache and the effect that having hunters on the hill for several months have done up there. put these hunts together get them done by the rifle deer hunt and then leave the elk alone.

As far as occupations we all know you ain't a fricken garbage man. I just really enjoyed the thread
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Let me clarify my stance here, I do NOT want a pile of hunters on the mountain in September slaughtering big stinky bulls. I do however see that we need to kill more bulls to balance the herds better, that is what these management tags can/should accomplish. If we kill some lesser bulls we can kill fewer cows to keep the overall numbers where they need to be w/o skewing the ratios to hell and back. Keep quality high yet give guys like Gordy his pisscutter w/o bringing the herd down in health and quality. Something MUST give or the elk will be in serious peril SOON. I just do NOT want all the quality shot out in 1-2 years. Get rid of the spike tags and give out management tags in higher numbers, this should appease the 'meat' hunters w/o screwing the 'head' hunters.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

WOW!!!

wiley!!!

YOU'RE NOT EVEN MAD AT ME YET???

YOU PROBABLY MISSED ONE OF MY POSTS WHILE YOU WERE GONE???

ME & JR KEEP AN EYE ON THINGS EVERY CHANCE WE GET!!!

A FEW WEEKS AGO WE COUNTED 437 ELK ONE MORNING!!!

9 BULLS ALTOGETHER!!!

YA I KNOW THE BIG BULLS WON'T BE RUNNING WITH THE HERDS RIGHT NOW!!!

BUT THERE WERE ONLY A FEW YOUNG BULLS!!!

MILK ON THE LIPPS BULLS!!!

PISSCUTTER BULLS!!!

DO THE NUMBERS TELL YOU ANYTHING???

WOULD YOU SAY THIS AREA HAS BEEN OVER HUNTED???

OR DO I NEED GLASSES???

proutdoors!!!

L.E. UNITS WERE NEVER FRICKIN SET UP FOR MEAT HUNTERS,WTF???

I CAN HEAR IT NOW!!!

OH ITS MEAT SEASON IN THE L.E. UNITS!!!

GO KILL YOUR PISSCUTTERS ELSEWHERE!!!

I GET A KICK OUT OF YOU BOYS!!!

THE UDWR OVERHUNTS THE COWS & THEN BITTCHES & WONDERS WHY THINGS ARE OUT OF BALANCE,WTF???

GOD PITTY IF MOTHER NATURE EVER HAS TO TAKE OVER AGAIN,I DON'T THINK SHE CAN DO HER JOB WITHOUT YOU TARDS AROUND FOR SOME UN-PROFFESSIONAL HELP!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT WILL NEVER BE BRAIN WASHED WITH THE BULLSHIT LIKE SOME OTHERS HERE!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Bessy, I think you got me wrong. I am all for keeping the quality and do not want all the big bulls taken out. I hope to draw this year or next and I certainly want the quality there when I draw. My question to you is, what is your suggestion to balance the herds that have such high bull/cow ratios? You dont want more bulls killed and you dont want cows killed right? Then how does the DWR keep the numbers where they need to be? Wave a magic wand and say abracadabra and the ratios are squared up and no pisscutters were 'sacrificed'? Give some solutions not just a bunch of hairballs. Again I am a 'head hunter' first but a realist at the same time, something MUST be done to get these bull/cow ratios in check or the quality will suffer without even killing a pisscutter bull or cow.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Bobcat, that's just too many words and too many caps to follow. I'm sure you've said it, and I aint going back to search eveyone of your 4,500 some posts to find it, so just give it to us straight, again,... IF THE UDWR WAS OPERATING UNDER BOBCAT BIOLOGY, HOW WOULD IT LOOK? LIST IT OUT, SIMPLE LIKE, I'M LEGITIMATELY CURIOUS...and waiting, hopefully sooner the 4am.


BOBCATS ELK MANAGMENT

1.


2.


3.


4.


5.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

pro!!!

I'VE SEEN THIS HAPPEN ON A COUPLE OF UNITS WITH MY OWN FRICKEN EYES!!!

FOR EXAMPLE!!!

HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF THE ANTHRO/ARGYLE L.E. ELK UNIT???

A GOOD UNIT ONCE UPON A TIME!!!

SOME OF MY FIRST POINTS WERE EARNED ON THIS UNIT!!!

ABOUT MY 3RD YEAR OF DRAWING!!!

THEY LET TRIBAL MEMBERS GO INTO THE L.E. UNIT WITH EXTERIOR BOUNDARY PERMITS & HUNT THE UNIT 2 WEEKS BEFORE NON-TRIBAL MEMBERS COULD!!!

WAS THAT FAIR TO THE NON-MEMBERS WHO SPENT YEARS DRAWING FOR THE PERMIT???

HELL NO!!!

WOULD OUR UDWR DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT???

HELL NO!!!

THATS WHEN I MOVED CAMP!!!

THEN THE UDWR STARTED HAMMERING COWS ON THAT UNIT BIG TIME!!!

HAMMERED THEM SO HARD WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM!!!

TOO MANY BULLS FOR THE AMOUNT OF COWS!!!

WELL HOT DAMN!!!

I WONDER WHY???

THIS HERD IS IN SERIOUS TROUBLE!!!

2 YEARS AGO I DAMN NEAR TURNED A GUY IN FOR HAVING A BULL IN THE BACK OF HIS TRUCK IN DECEMBER!!!

I FIND OUT THEY CALL A LATE BULL DEPERDATION HUNT,WTF???

FIRST I'D EVER HEARD OF A LATE BULL HUNT DEPERDATION HUNT ON AN L.E. UNIT!!!

THE UNIT IS IN TROUBLE!!!

FROM WHAT I'VE JUST TOLD YOU CAN YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENED TO IT???

THERE WAS A MAJOR FIASCO ON THE FISH LAKE UNIT AS WELL!!!

WHAT I'M SAYING pro!!!

IS I HAVE SEEN A COUPLE OF GREAT L.E. UNITS DESTROYED BY PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!!!

SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES!!!

I AM NOT ONE TO TAKE MAJOR RISKS TO SATISFY A BUNCH OF WHINNING OPPORTUNISTS WHEN IT COMES TO L.E. UNITS!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND???

I'VE BEEN CALLED A PISSCUTTIN BIOLOGIST BEFORE,I ONLY REPORT WHAT I'VE SEEN WITH MY OWN EYES,YOU CAN BELIEVE ME OR YOU CAN SUCK UP TO THE UDWR,WHATS IT GONNA BE???

THE ONLY bobcat SUGGESTING ONCE & AGAIN,IF YOU WANT OPPORTUNITY OR IF YOU WANT TO HUNT PISSCUTTERS GET YOURSELF A GENERAL TAG & GET AFTER IT,L.E. UNITS WERE NEVER SET UP FOR A BUNCH OF WHINNING PISSCUTTIN OPPORTUNISTS!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

ForkWest!!!

1.MANAGE L.E. UNITS FOR TROPHY ANIMALS AS THEY WERE ORIGINALLY SET UP FOR!!!

2.OPPORTUNISTS CAN HUNT GENERAL UNITS & QUIT BITTCHING ABOUT NOT HAVING ENOUGH POINTS TO HUNT & DESTROY THE UNITS!!!

3.ENFORCE A 50,000.00 FINE FOR ANY POACHER GETTING CAUGHT & GIVE 10,000.00 TO THE PERSON THAT TURNED THEM IN!!!

4.NEVER START A HUNT THAT IS BASED ON ANTLER POINTS,I SEEN IT TRIED IN THE BOOK CLIFFS & I SEEN IT FAIL!!!

5.I'VE SPENT 25 YEARS IN ONE UNIT,LOTS OF YEARS LONG BEFORE IT BECAME A L.E. UNIT,I'VE NEVER FOUND A DEAD BULL THAT DIED OF OLD AGE,IT HAPPENS BUT NOT OFTEN SO QUIT YOUR BITTCHING!!!

6.DON'T KILL SO FRICKEN MANY COWS IT CAUSES AN IMBALANCE!!!

7.IF & WHEN THERE IS A PROBLEM TRY TRANSPLANTING A FEW OR TRADE THEM TO OTHER STATES FOR DIFFERENT SPECIES,YA IT COSTS MONEY BUT ITS STILL BETTER THAN DESTROYING THE UNIT!!!(AND YES WE HAVE TRADED ELK BEFORE!!!)

8.QUIT SCREWING WITH A GOOD THING!!!

9.IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY PLAN THEN BITE ME BEACH!!!

10.THE ONLY bobcat SUGGESTING YOU BOYS WAKE THE HELL UP,DO YOU REMEMBER THE FISH LAKE UNIT???DO YOU REMEMBER THE ANTHRO UNIT???I'M TALKING BEFORE & AFTER!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

Did I hear you offer to pony up the cash to transplant thousands of elk every year? You are saying you would rather have the state spend money shipping pisscutters to others states than let wiley take one with his bow. You give two examples that are totally different from each other and use that to justify not killing any cows and limiting the number of bulls killed and shipping the bulls to Ohio. Brilliant. I am not saying give wiley the whole cake or even a very big piece, he seems content to pick up crumbs of the bottom of your paws. I am not, I want a big stinky raunchy bull that makes my stomach churn from the stench of him wetting himself. I have been lucky enough to have harvested two bulls over 360 and do not have any desire to ever kill something smaller again, and I hunt with a bow and am STILL willing to come home empty or not hunt at all rather than chase a pisscutter around the mountain. You mistake me for being on wileys side, we agree on almost nothing, please do NOT make defend him or come across as being on his side on this issue. I want quality but we have to have balance, that is something a cat should know all to well.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

BESSY I've got no problem in managing for quality like LE units should be. You've got quality, You've got as many fricken bulls as ya do cows. You've got more big bulls than any state in the union!!

If not now WHEN?? What magic BESSYCAT criteria needs to be met to let people hunt?? Do we get away from age and bull to cow objective's and go by inches???

If we filled these units up with BESSY APPROVED 402 inch bulls you sumbitches still wouldn't approve of more tags because you would expect a 504 bull.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

EASY wiley!!!

I JUST GOT BACK FROM GETTING SOME NIP!!!

HERES WHAT YOU PISSCUTTIN FOOLS NEED TO DO!!!

IT WILL WORK GUARANDAMNTEED!!!

YA SEE WE'VE GOT THE STOCK!!!

YOU BOYS START LETS SAY ABOUT 5 PISSCUTTIN UNITS!!!

YOU MANAGE THEM YOUR WAY!!!

WE'LL MANAGE OURS OUR WAY!!!

THAT WAY YOU CAN HAVE YOUR OWN RULES!!!

YOU WANT TO SHOOT A FRICKEN COW GET AFTER IT!!!

YOU WANT TO SHOOT A FRICKEN PISSCUTTER & BRAGG ABOUT IT GIT-R-DONE!!!

YOU'LL NEVER HEAR ME COMPLAIN!!!

AS LONG AS YOU DO IT IN YOUR UNITS ON YOUR TURF!!!

THAT WAY IT WOULD BE SHORT DISTANCE TRANSPLANTING & NOTHING LEAVES THE STATE!!!

THEN YOU PISSCUTTIN BITTCHES COULD DO WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT TO!!!

YOU WANT TO HUNT IT 8 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR GIT-R-DONE!!!

YOU WANT TO ISSUE 8 MILLION PERMITS GIT-R-DONE!!!

YOU WANT SPIKE HUNTS GIT-R-DONE!!!

YOU WANT MANAGEMENT BULL HUNTS GIT-R-DONE!!!

YOU WANT MEAT BULL HUNTS GIT-R-DONE!!!

YOU WANT TO OFFER MORE OPPORTUNITY GIT-R-DONE!!!

YOU WANT TO OFFER 12 DIFFERENT WEAPONS HUNTS GIT-R-DONE!!!

YOU WANT TO USE FLIPPERS GIT-R-DONE!!!

I SAY START YOUR OWN UNITS/AREAS!!!

IT CAN BE DONE!!!

THE ONLY bobcat PROMISING YOU I WON'T COME IN & TRY & SCREW YOUR PISSCUTTIN UNITS UP,I PROMISE,I SAY GIT-R-DONE & PLEASE HURRY,I'M TIRED OF YOUR BITTCHING!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

I can go with this line of thought, lets get r done
only rule on these new units. You inch freaks
can sit on your thumbs for another 25 years without drawing to hunt the LE Units that you are managing the 402 BESSY BULLS on.

You are so damn happy to wait all your life to go kill a
400 bull, me and the opportunists will gladly hunt a 350-360 bull every ten years or so, with the chance of getting a crack at a pig if we are lucky.

Best part of the whole idea is...You can stay at home and spend some of that special quality me time with your own inches if ya catch my drift, cause this hunt is for people that like to have opportunity, not for hunters that can't bring themselves to shoot a PISSCUTTER. You go ahead and whack yourself and I'll try a couple times in my life to whack a
respectable bull.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

wiley!!!

SEE!!!

IMEDIATELY EVEN BEFORE YOU GET YOUR UNITS STARTED YOU ARE TALKING OF 350"-360" BIG STINKY BULLS!!!

UN-FRICKEN-BELIEVABLE!!!

WE PROMISE WE WILL STAY OUT OF YOUR PISSCUTTIN UNITS!!!

I PROMISE!!!

I WON'T EVEN PUT IN TO SCREW YOUR ODDS UP!!!

I ONLY WANT ONE!!!

A TRUCKLOAD OF 230" PISSCUTTERS DON'T IMPRESS ME AT ALL!!!

GO AHEAD & HAVE FUN,YOU & 80,000 OTHER OPPORTUNISTS!!!

REMEMBER!!!

ALL THE OPPORTUNITY IN THE WORLD IS WAITING FOR YOU!!!

YOU & 8 MILLION OTHER PISSCUTTIN OPPORTUNISTS!!!

BEST THING ABOUT YOU HAVING YOUR OWN UNITS IS I WON'T NEED TO HEAR ANYMORE OPPORTUNISTS WHINNING!!!

I CAME UP WITH A GREAT IDEA FOR YOU wiley!!!

NOW I SAY:GIT-R-DONE BUD!!!

YOU GONNA HAVE A POINT SYSTEM???

OR YOU GONNA LET EVERYBODYS BUDDIES BUDDY HUNT THE UNITS EVERY FRICKEN YEAR???

THE ONLY bobcat HOPEING LIKE HELL YOU GET IT DONE,I'M SERIOUS AS ALL HELL,YOU GET ALL THE OPPORTUNISTS GATHERED UP THAT SHOULD BE ENOUGH POWER TO GET THINGS ROLLING & POSSIBLY HUNTING THEM NEW UNITS BY NEXT YEAR!!!
 
Anybody figured out how to keep the young 5 points with the potential to be great bulls from getting shot yet???

I'd be willing to bet the farm that most of the bulls shot are going to be young bulls with potential.
 
Prism,

Did you figure out where me and the camera crew were going to kill a 180 type buck for your next movie?;-) Please PM me with details.;-)

Damn I am glad I am out of this argument this year!:) To answer your question Prism, because it is a good one, make some things mandatory.

How about a 5X something?
Mandatory spotting scope requirements like the goat hunts?
Mandatory check in for the animal.
DWR education papers explaing what management bulls look like?
The 5X side MUST be natural WITHOUT any broken points?
You draw, you lose points and go on a waiting period!
Opportunity should cost points also.
Pick one unit and do a test run and see how it works first?

By putting some responsibilities on the back of the hunter things may work? If a guy can be sure his spike is not a small 2X2 then couldn't a provision be in place for a NATURAL 5 side? The DWR puts examples of legal bulls in the annual proclamation so I would think putting together a small 3 page education pamphlet in with the license would be easy.

I think these hunts could work. Bess, I can understand your concerns. No one with a ton of points wants quality jeopardized. I can also understand when you do draw you do not want hundreds of guides, spotters, cow, deer, or coyote hunters in the field at the same time. If a lot of "genetically inferior" bulls exist and ratios are out of whack, done properly, this could only help. I personally do not know what the true ratios are and percentages of the "inferior" bulls are. I also would hate to see any risk of quality degraded.

Just some thoughts from a pointless dude.:)

One thing I thought about, what are your opinions guys, should we maintain the quality we have now? Or, do we try for even BIGGER bulls. Do not get me wrong, I love the quality and stories and pictures every year. I KNOW I will never draw again and that is ok. My hunt was OIL and one trip through the photo album brings a smile to my mug every time.
 
WELL HELL ktc!!!

IF wiley IS GONNA START HIS UNITS AS 350"-360" BULL UNITS!!!

I THINK WE SHOULD GO BIGGER!!!

DAMN!!!

I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE DAY A 400" BULL IS A DINK!!!

DID YOU HEAR ME wiley???

SERIOUSLY THOUGH!!!

wiley IMEDIATELY WANTS 350"+ BULLS!!!

WELL SO DO I!!!

NOT EVERYBODY IN THE STATE CAN TAKE ONE!!!

THATS THE PART HE CAN'T SEE!!!

WELL AT LEAST NOT UNTIL HE GETS THE NEW UNITS GOING!!!

YOU THINK THESE L.E. UNITS BECAME 350"+ BULL UNITS OVER NIGHT wiley???

THINK AGAIN!!!

IT TOOK A LOT OF TIME & WORK TO GET THESE L.E. UNITS WHERE THEY ARE & WE AIN'T GONNA LET PISSCUTTIN BITTCHES DESTROY THEM!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NEEDING A LITTLE MORE NIP!!!
 
Ktc,

Either the prozac is working wonders or having zero elk points serves you well. I'm donating my 13 elk points to the united negro collage fund and going buck huntin with you and Prism. I feel the weight lifting off my sholders already.
 
It is the Prozac and Xanax. I have been doing well lately.;-)

I must admit, it feels good not to have to worry no longer. It must feel something like what they tell me you feel when you die?

Please get me some good news tomorrow Dale. I will come down and hang out in God's country for a day or two. We can decide what is the best way to handle the elk herd?
 
Ty,
Hopefully I will have good news and you will have a reason to get out of the city a day or two.

As far as the question above. I am not greedy. The quality we have now is just fine, nothing more, nothing less.
 
HEY Paul!!!

IT ALWAYS AMAZES ME!!!

FOR SOME REASON THEY THINK 5 POINT OR SMALLER BULLS ARE INFERIOR BULLS!!!

I GUESS THEY THINK THESE BIG STINKY BULLS WERE BORN 350"+???

I SEEN WHAT THE TARDS DONE IN THE BOOK CLIFFS WHEN IT WAS 3 POINT OR BETTER!!!

THIS ##### DON'T WORK!!!

IF THEY LET THIS HUNT PASS THEY OUGHT TO ENFORCE A 50,000.00 FINE FOR PISSCUTTIN BITTCHES SHOOTING A BULL THAT IS NOT LEAGAL!!!

I'M WITH YA Prism!!!

I'D SURE LIKE TO PUT YOU IN CHARGE OF THE DWR!!!

YOU EVER FELT LIKE CLEANING HOUSE???

THE ONLY bobcat HOPEING PEOPLE WILL WAKE THE HELL UP BUT THEY WON'T!!!
 
KTC,

I think we are already managing for plenty of quality. More would be out of line, BUT I am an opportunist!!! I really like your conditions of the "management" hunts also. A lot of these bulls will qualify as management types that are broken (either before or after they are shot). My personal oppinion is throw out the point stipulation and let a few more hunters kill a few more elk.

I have a question, What is the difference between a 5 point this year and a 5 point in 4 years? NOTHING!!! After these management type bulls are killed in 1-2 years, we are simply killing bulls with smaller horns. Either way it affects some quality. Why not let them mature and let a few more hunters kill them when they are mature?

This hunt is just a means to kill bulls. It really does not matter there size when they are shot. Either age, they are a dead elk.

Bessy,

You keep bringing up these cow hunts. Do you realize you are making the case for the Biologists. They don't want the cow hunts either! They need bulls killed to keep the elk herd at objective.

As to your suggestion on dividing up the elk units into regional management and doing what we want with them, that has already been done. It was proposed and passed this years RAC's and WB. Time will tell how it will work out. They passed a rule to keep a percentage of units in each age class and to be managed regionally. Anyone who understood it differently please correct me if I am wrong. (yes I admit I can be wrong once in a while!!!)

Bottom line, Points must count, waiting periods must count, Broken antlers must not count, and point restrictions should not apply. We CAN have Opportunity and still have Big Stinky bulls!!!! The increases must be closely watched.

Have a great day.

Chad
 
SS!!!

WRONG!!!

MY PLAN IS TO LEAVE THE BIG STINKY BULL UNITS ALONE!!!

YOU & wiley CAN START THE NEW UNITS & DO AS YOU DAMN WELL PLEASE WITH THEM!!!

REMEMBER wiley!!!

IT TAKES 6-8 YEARS FOR GOOD NUMBERS OF 350" BULLS!!!

NEVER MIND!!!

I FORGOT YOU'LL BE HAPPY WITH THE FIRST PISSCUTTER THAT STEPS OUT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT KNOWING WHY ANYBODY WOULD WANT TO MAKE A PISSCUTTER HUNT OUT OF THE EXISTING L.E. UNITS!!!
 
AND ONE MORE THING wiley!!!

YOU CAN TAKE THIS NEW SO CALLED MANAGEMENT BULL HUNT & HAVE IT IN YOUR UNITS!!!

I SEEN WHAT TARDS DONE IN THE BOOK CLIFFS ON A ANTLER POINT RESTRICTION & WE DON'T WANT THAT HAPPENING IN THE TROPHY UNITS BUT IT MIGHT BE O.K. IN THE PISSCUTTIN UNITS,THAT WILL BE FOR YOU TO DECIDE!!!

THERE WILL BE ALOT OF PEOPLE PISSING & MOANING WANTING TO HUNT YOUR UNITS!!!

WILL YOU LET EVERY OPPORTUNIST IN THE STATE HUNT THE UNITS EVERY YEAR???

OR WHAT KIND OF MANAGEMENT WILL YOU HAVE???

THE ONLY bobcat WAITING FOR YOUR NEXT RESPONSE wiley,YOU'VE HAD TIME TO COOL OFF,LETS HERE IT!!!
 
I agree with Mr. Peay. Go hunt Colorado where the deer are bigger than most of our new "management" bulls!:);)

I wonder what a pisscutter conservation management bull tag will pull at the banquets?

I'm not going to get my panties into too much of a wad because I truely believe the "powers that be" need/want the $$$ too much to let the herds go to total crapola.

Big bulls are worth BIG BUCKS!!!

It's just too bad we don't put a fraction of effort or ideas into or SUCKY general deer herds and hunting.......

You know, the hunts that the majority of Utahn's actually go on.

Oh yeah, in Utah we don't worry about the majority, we worry about the minority with MUCHO DENEROS......
 
To be clear, my concern with the "management hunts" is; is this a viable concern? Last year bulls dying of old age was the argument. This year it is managemnet bulls and ratios. Is this problem real? I have no idea other than listening to MM chatter.

I personally have never found dead bulls from old age. The bulls I saw the last two years all looked pretty well put together also. I never saw any "management bulls" with inferior genetics. The ratio I seen from my travels was maybe 1 bull to every 2 cows? This is all I can report from one small part of the world.
 
Thanks PRISM and KTC you both get it.
Dinero, cash, greeenbacks, moola.

The people in charge just don't have enough swinging to
deal with the BESSY'S of the world. I've never found a
bull that died of old age, I wouldn't know how to tell
what a elks rack is going to look like next year or the year after that.

Can you guarantee me the 5 point PISSCUTTER won't grow to be the next world record?? As much as I am for letting hunters hunt elk the BESSY'S of the world are against letting hunters hunt elk because after applying for 25 years they damn well better kill a 400 inch bull. Inches matter so much to them that the experience means squat the hunt means squat and they won't even let the animal get through twitching and kicking before they have the tape on the antlers.

THE ONLY ww THAT IS DONE WITH THIS THREAD. QUIT WITH THE RESTRICTIONS AND NONSENSE AND LET A FEW MORE HUNTERS KILL A FEW MORE ELK
 
TOUGHEN UP ww!!!

JUST START YOUR OWN UNITS!!!

JUST DO IT!!!

IF YOUR SO OBCESSED WITH WANTING TO KILL A PISSCUTTER IN AN L.E. UNIT KNOWING YOU AIN'T GOT ENOUGH POINTS WITHOUT BEGGING FOR MORE PERMITS JUST GET YOUR OWN UNITS GOING!!!

YOU & AT LEAST 50,000 OTHERS WANT THE SAME THING SO I SAY GIT-R-DONE!!!

LISTEN UP!!!

THERE ARE "NOT" ENOUGH BULLS COMBINED IN ALL THE L.E. UNITS TO SATISFY EVERY PISSCUTTIN BITTCH THAT WANTS TO KILL A SUB TROPHY BULL!!!

YOU'VE NEVER HEARD ME SAY ITS ALL ABOUT THE INCHES!!!

I EXPERIENCE A COUPLE OF THESE L.E. UNITS EVERY FALL WITHOUT A PERMIT!!!

ONCE IN A WHILE A FRIEND GETS A PERMIT!!!

RATHER I EVER PULL A PERMIT OR NOT IT JUST WOULDN'T BE THE SAME IF THINGS CHANGED & ALL I COULD SEE WERE DINK BULLS IN THEM UNITS!!!

AND BY THE WAY,I DON'T CARRY A TAPE OR AN OUTFITTER WITH 15 HELPERS WITH ME!!!

HERES WHAT YOU NEED TO THINK ABOUT!!!

WHEN THE L.E. UNITS WERE SET UP!!!

NOT A WHOLE LOT OF HUNTERS WERE INVOLVED!!!

TROPHY HUNTERS MOSTLY!!!

ALOT OF THESE UNITS DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT 310" BULLS WERE!!!

WITH MANAGEMENT,TIME AND ALOT OF WORK,PROJECTS & ETC & YES $$$ THESE UNITS AFTER SEVERAL YEARS CAME ON STRONG!!!

THE AVERAGE JOE BLOW NEVER HARDLY KNEW WHAT THESE UNITS WERE ALL ABOUT UNTIL 340"+ BULLS START GETTING HARVESTED!!!

AND THEN OH HELL!!!

EVERY OPPORTUNIST IN THE STATE ALL OF A SUDDEN WANTS TO HUNT THESE UNITS WHEN THEY SEE THE BULLS BEING PULLED FROM THEM!!!

WELL TOUGH TITTY!!!

ALOT OF THEM ARE WAY DOWN ON POINTS AND HAVE SINCE TRIED EVERY FRICKEN TRICK IN THE BOOK TO GET THEIR DAMN FOOT IN THE DOOR!!!

THEY'VE BALLED LIKE BABIES!!!

THEY'VE CLAIMED BIG BULLS DIEING FROM OLD AGE BY THE HUNDREDS!!!(I'M CALLING BULL$HIT ON THIS ONE!!!)

THEY WHINED FOR A COW HUNT & GOT IT!!!(WONDER WHY THE RATIO IS ####ED UP???)

THEY'VE CLAIMED 12 BULLS FOR EACH COW!!!(THEY'RE TO FRICKEN STUPID TO FIGURE OUT WHY!!!)

THEY'RE WHINNING FOR A MANAGEMENT BULL HUNT!!!(SOMEBODY TELL THESE TARDS EVEN THE BIG BULLS WERE LITTLE ONCE!!!)

NOW THERES A FEW WANTING A MEAT BULL HUNT!!!(BITE ME!!!)

MARK MY WORD ON IT!!!

NEXT YEAR THERE WILL BE SOME OTHER REDICULOUS KIND OF HUNT THEY WANT ADDED!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHY THE PISSCUTTIN BITCHES WERE NOT INVOLVED ON ANY OF THE PROJECTS THAT HELPED GET THESE L.E. UNITS WHERE THEY ARE TODAY???(ANSWERS PLEASE!!!)
 
RE: TOUGHEN UP ww!!!

What I wonder is, why the 'meat' hunters think they are the more ethical hunters than the 'horn' hunters? Why is killing an animal for meat only somehow make someone a real hunter over someone who hunts for horn and meat? Why is someone who kills the first bull that walks in front of them a better hunter than someone who is more SELECTIVE in what animal he harvests?

Bess, I am with you on the quality, I just don't see how we can kill bulls only and on a very limited basis, and manage the overall numbers as well as bull/cow ratios. Give me some real ideas, not shipping them to other states or other areas.
 
RE: TOUGHEN UP ww!!!

pro!!!

READ MY POSTS ABOVE!!!

I'M OFFERING ww & OTHERS TO KEEP THE ELK HERE IN UTAH!!!

LET THEM START & MANAGE THEIR OWN TYPE OF HUNTS!!!

YA,PISSCUTTER HUNTS!!!

THEY'RE NOT NECCESSARILY MEAT HUNTERS!!!

THEY WANT A FRICKEN SHOT AT THEM BIG STINKY ASS BULLS AS BAD AS YOU & WON'T ADMIT IT!!!

DO YOU REALIZE WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE COWS IN THE L.E. UNITS???

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH!!!

ADD IT UP!!!

THE ONLY bobcat KNOWING FOR A FACT THAT THE MEAT BULL HUNT IS JUST ANOTHER TACTIC USED BY OPPORTUNISTS!!!
 
Anyword on when the procs will be out so we can read the real deal on these tags???

Seiously though, I find it interesting that only about 1-2% of Utah's big game hunters hunt LE elk each year, and it seems that 99% of everything the DWR and conservation groups deal with is about our BIG MONEY ELK HERDS.

While 100% of Utah's general deer season hunters get the SHAFT!

Can somebody please show me what great things have happened with what the majority of us hunt every year-DEER!!!

And I don't need to hear about projects on the Henries, Pauns, or any other LE unit. I want concrete increases in deer numbers and buck to doe ratios. Again, Colorado's done it. Why can't we???

Maybe the Utah biolgist approved and recommended 1000 doe slaughters in the NE region didn't work out so well.

Maybe the oopppssyyy cow hunts on the Wasatch haven't worked out so well, the fishlake, etc.....

Maybe our very own MM armchair biologist could do a better job. They sure as $#$%@ couldn't do any worse.

I find it interesting that even on SFWs website that the majority of people polled say they saw fewer deer this year than last year.

Sorry for the deer digression......it's second nature:)
 
HEY Prism!!!

I'M WITH YA BUD!!!

IF WE COULD BRING QUALITY DEER HUNTING BACK I'D SAY SHOOT EVERY FRICKEN ELK IN THE STATE & LET THE PISSCUTTIN BITTCHES DO IT!!!

BUT!!!

OVER THE YEARS I'VE LEARNED A FEW THINGS!!!

I TRULY BELIEVE BIG BUCKS CAN NOT & WILL NOT SURVIVE IF THERE ARE NOT SOME MAJOR CHANGES!!!

IS ANYBODY LISTENING???

I'M TALKING CHANGES SO SEVERE WE MAY ONLY BE HUNTING DEER EVERY OTHER YEAR!!!

I'M TALKING FINES FOR POACHING THAT ARE 50,000.00 MINIMUM!!!

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS???

THERE ARE MORE PISSCUTTIN DEER BITTCHES THAN ELK!!!

THEY JUST WANT TO SHOOT A DEER & DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE!!!

I WENT THROUGH THIS AT THE MEETINGS SEVERAL YEARS AGO & TRIED TELLING EVERYBODY IT WOULDN'T WORK!!!

WELL WAS THE cat SOMEWHAT RIGHT ON THE DEER???

I'LL LET YOU DECIDE!!!

IT WOULD TAKE SUCH MAJOR CHANGES PAUL THAT WE'D BE OUTNUMBERED SO BAD BY THE OPPORTUNISTS WE'D LOSE LIKE WE ARE STARTING TO LOSE THE QUALITY OF THE ELK UNITS!!!

I'M ALL FOR IMPROVING THE DEER HERDS!!!

WHATEVER IT TAKES I SAY WE DO IT NOW RATHER THAN LATER!!!

AND NO MY PLAN DOESN'T INCLUDE A LOWLIFE DOE SHOOTER HUNT ANYWHERE IN THIS STATE!!!(FOR YOU BOYS THAT DON'T LIKE THAT BITE ME!!!)

O.K. PAUL ITS YOUR TURN!!!

LETS HEAR IT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat FIGHTING FOR QUALITY NO MATTER THE COST!!!
 
I am in for the deer hunt being seriously changed, but you are right about the meat hunters for der being more numerous than the elk meat hunters. I say lets push it just for the entertainment value it would bring. We just might get lucky and have the DWR do the right thing to help our depleted deer herds at the same time.
 
Prism,

You are so very right! The deer issue bugs me also. When I inquired about deer tag decreases, it sounded like the vast majority is against this method because of lost opportunity. While I see the concern here, I struggle with a willow horn 4 point and less hardly being much opportunity. It sounds like hands are tied to help deer using a tag decrease method.

I am taking some good advice and going to Colorado....to hunt deer. :) I just cannot imagine putting a Utah effort into a Colorado deer hunt and killing deer worthy of my living room wall. I guess I will find out. I seen a definite decrease in deer/quality this year over 05.
 
HET pro!!!

LETS JUST GO TO VEGAS!!!

I THINK THE ODDS WOULD BE BETTER!!!

NOTHING LIKE STIRRING THE MEAT HUNTERS UP!!!

I'VE NEVER DONE ANYTHING LIKE THAT,LOL!!!

THE ONLY bobcat!!! :D :D :D
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-06 AT 06:31PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-06 AT 06:14?PM (MST)

BESSY you fricken idiot, garbage bag totin, beeotch
( I really ain't that pissed just wanted to see what the sensors would allow )

1. I never said I wanted to go into your precious 400 only bull units and nuke these sumbittches. I said and will always say
we got enough elk on these units to allow more opportunity.
You freaks that are convinced that if ya have to do more than
hike over one ridge to find yer 400 bull, that ya got screwed
well ya'll can BITE ME. HOW FRICKEN LONG DO YA THINK THE BULL FROM THE BOOK CLIFFS ELUDED HUNTERS ( AROUND A 430 BULL )
even with your hero's video crews "scouting" he managed to
be over 425 inches and elude the "super guide" for at least one year!!!

2. Ya bag slinging fool you seem to think that one year of increased opportunity is going to equate to every elk in Utah with 6 points or more being wiped from the face of the earth.
Who needs to toughen up here CUPCAKE. NOT ONLY DO YOU EXPECT TO KILL A 360+ BULL WHEN YA DRAW YOU EXPECT THE BULLS TO ROLL OUT IN FRONT OF YA LIKE USED CARS THAT YOU ARE SHOPPING FOR.

3. It really blows BESS that you and I go round and round on this and the fact is that if we had the financial means you would have you FRICKEN SURGICALLY ENHANCED INCH OBSESSED
FREAK OF A BULL and I would enjoy an elk hunt every year
for whatever bull I decide to touch the release on that year.

THE ONLY ww THAT AGREE'S WITH BESS THAT THE NEW ELK PLAN BLOWS.
 
you guy's are right about the deer herds. They don't draw the money to the 3 letter groups like elk do. All those D@#$ conservation tgas do very little to help the 99% of Utahns who actually hunt this state with waiting periods and loss of points. 1% benefit from the HUNDREDS of tags ripped from the draws by the conservation tags. And the get to benefit every year with no loss of points and no waiting periods. Screw the deer, I say we should all consider supporting these permits and the groups that rob from us every year!

As for the elk, Bessy, Your wrong. We do get to manage the Big bulls! How does that taste?? The opportunists are on the march and we plan on killing all the bulls by 2008! We hope to reduce the herds to a 1 bull to 100 cows ratio by then.

Seriously though, get a grip. Killing more bulls is not going to hurt these herds. Each year they have added tags and the average age of bulls killed has either gone up or maintained a level at objective.

The truth is there are a lot of bulls on these units and like it or not some more of them can be killed without adversely affecting the trophy quality. You don't want cows killed and neither do I. We must keep these herds at objective. Some of these elk must die. It might as well be a few more trophy bulls that will be replaced the next year by the next age class of bulls. Relax, it will all be fun. Trust us!!!
 
Now that it seems the eggnog and holiday cheer is flowing here?s my recommendations.

Colorado has roughly TWICE the amount of deer that Utah does and issues roughly the same amount of deer tags. We can all talk until we're blue in the face, but it's plain as day if you ask me. We need to start micromanaging smaller units and cut the hunter numbers where needed.

If I could have a quality hunt in Utah ever other year on public ground I'd be up for it. I'd love to have a good reason not to hunt private ground and spend the money somewhere else.

I think we all know that the DWR doesn't make the final decision when it comes to Utah?s wildlife management. It's all about politics you know;)

Until the ever powerful and ever wealthy conservation groups decide it's time to make a change then we're stuck with what we got?.. The only problem is I think they're too busy making money off the minority to care about the majority.

You can buy as much of the pie as you want if you have the money:)

I'm sure there are those that think the deer hunting in Utah must be great (the DWR). There definitely isn't a shortage of hunters willing to buy tags. Crap, even the coveted NE region tags are all going to go the first go around in the ?07 draw. Central tags are selling for hundreds of dollars at banquets. Conservation group rags are ranting that the ?good old days? are back in Utah.

The whored out northern region tags all sell out. The Cache gets pounded, the Grouse Creeks get pounded.

One big deer gets killed for every several thousand deer hunters, it ends up in a magazine and everybody goes hmmmmm things must be OK. Look, somebody shot a big deer???. I must not be hunting hard enough, I must need the latest and greatest optics, maybe I need a new ATV, a new Rhino, a gun that shoots a mile, a couple more stickers on my truck, and a 6? lift, a boob job for the wife?..:)

Did somebody say something about elk-hahahahaha
 
EASY wiley!!!

YOU'RE ABOUT TO BLOW YOUR STACK!!!

I HAVE NO HEROES OF THE SORT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!

I KNOW WHERE THERE IS A BULL BIGGER THAN THE BULL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!

I DON'T "EXPECT" ANYTHING!!!

NO I CAN'T AFFORD TO BUY ANY BULL!!!

IF I EVER GET ONE THERE WON'T BE 70,000.00 INVOLVED!!!

SS!!!

WAKE THE HELL UP!!!

SURE IF YOU DECIMATE THE UNITS TO GET THE RATIO'S 1 BULL TO 100 COWS YOU'VE KILLED EM ALL BY 2008!!!

YOU SOUND LIKE YOU'RE MAKING ALL THE NEW RULES???

WHATS YOUR RANK???

THE ONLY bobcat KNOWING FOR A FACT ww IS ABOUT TO BLOW,HES CALLING ME NAMES & BUILDING STEAM!!!
 
AND BY THE WAY ww!!!

ITS A GOOD THING BCBADGEBOY BURNT HIS NUKE FINGER WHEN HE BURNT THE TENT DOWN OR SEVERAL OF YOUR POSTS WOULD BE HISTORY!!!

THE ONLY bobcat!!! :D :D :D
 
ktc!!!

wiley IS TRYING TO FIGURE A WAY TO HUNT THEM BIG STINKY BULLS ASAP!!!

HE DOESN'T SEEM TO CARE RATHER THE PLAN DESTROYS THE L.E. UNITS FOR FUTURE HUNTERS!!!

THATS WHERE ME & MOST DIFFER!!!

SOME PEOPLE JUST DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE FUTURE!!!

SOME CAN'T LOOK INTO THE FUTURE AS FAR AS TOMMORROW MORNING!!!

AS LONG AS THEY GET THEIR GREEDY WAYS THEY'RE HAPPY!!!

START YOUR OWN UNITS ww AS WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER!!!

NO IT WON'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT!!!

BUT NIETHER DID THE L.E. UNITS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING YOU'D BETTER COOL IT ww A BIT,ITS A LONG TIME UNTIL ELK/DEER SEASON AGAIN!!!
 
Yeah, what's up. Some of this stuff should of been NUKED long ago. Must be at Christmas parties...
 
..................THATS RUDE KTC................................
.....I want to know what 0 pressure feels like..................
.....The Bow with 10 points is looking better all the time.....
 
EVERYBODY'S IN THE CHRISTMAS SPIRIT & MOOD & YOU SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT TO!!!

LOL!!!

THE ONLY bobcat!!! :D :D :D
 
HEY BIRDUM!!!

HE WASN'T RUDE AT THIS TIME LAST YEAR,LOL!!!

THE ONLY bobcat!!! :D :D :D
 
Lets get tags this year CAT and see how 0 PRESSURE FEELS FOR A CHANGE.I need a hat made that says that on the front after I kill....0 PRESSURE...........
LOL!!!
 
Bessy,

I have no rank man. I am mostly messin with ya. You know I was kidding about the 1 bull to 100 cows right??? But, I do believe that each unit could harvest a few more bulls than we already do. I beleive this Management hunt is a shame. To not lose points and no waiting periods is wrong. We should simply continue increasing tags as the units allow. You know as well as I do that these units are loaded with bulls. A few more would NOT hurt the quality.

Somewhere in between your side and mine, there has to be some middle ground where the truth is! Sure is fun to hash it out.

Prism,

I beleive that the 3 letter groups actually beleive the deer herd is hurting and at the RAC and WB mtg's, recommended a Mule Deer committee similar to the elk and specifically asked for the DWR to take a real hard look at micro manageing the deer. The spokesman for the WB actually called them on the carpet for it saying that last time the DWR talked about micro management the groups were against it. The rep for MDF actually admitted that they had changed their feelings on it and would support it now. Are things headed in the right direction? I don't know but at least there is some good dialog going on for deer.

I would support micro manageing for sure. We must decrease tags and work to get the deer herds on the high end of buck to doe ratios rather than just barely hitting the mark. If the objective is 15-20 bucks per 100 does we can't accept 15. We need to push it to 20 by reducing harvest. Even if it means missing a season or 2. Have a great day.

Chad
 
Chad,

I hear tell that the groups are finally starting to look at micromanagement. We can only hope sooner than later. Even after some serious changes are made, we're several years out from quality hunting.

Any way you slice it there is no denying that it works.

I know the boys up on the Cache are trying to get something done for the deer.

I think the quality of our general deer herds is a blackeye to our conservation groups and those that work for our state's wildlife.

On the other hand two thumbs up for what was likely the best year in Utah's history for big bulls.

I realize that there are a lot of complicated issues when it comes to managing wildlife in Utah. There's a lot of players at the table with something to give and take. It's just frustrating to see soooo much potential go to waste year after year after year.....

With that I think I'll bow out on this post.

Play nice fellers-SANTA CLAUS IS WATCHING!!!
 

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