16 success rate for deer

Wiszard

Wiszard

Long Time Member
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I am surprised that the success rate is so low for area 16 yet there were 67 hunters that put it down as their first choice. Is this generally not a good deer unit but some guys just know where the deer are? I am looking for a good unit that holds more deer than others (not quality but quantity....both if possible) on the western side of the state. Any help would be appreciated. I hunted 10 last season and did not like anything about it.

Steve

Cancer doesn't discriminate...don't take your good health for granted because it can be gone in a heartbeat. Please go back and read the last line. This time really understand what it says.
 
Man we hunted unit 23 right next to 16. Way too many hunters. Too many tags given out to a way reduced herd. Wolves now running around. 16 is an elk unit. If you want a western NM deer hunt that is pretty good 17 is the unit to hunt. You gotta dig in and get back in it but there are some toads in there. Numbers still pretty good. 16 just hasn't been allowed a break. Some units need a couple years off and some major predator reduction to boot. Just my $.02.
 
Thanks for the response guys.....I figured the herd wasn't that strong.

Steve

Cancer doesn't discriminate...don't take your good health for granted because it can be gone in a heartbeat. Please go back and read the last line. This time really understand what it says.
 
I think 16 used to be pretty good, but I've seen a pretty significant drop the last couple years. I don't think it's a coincidence that wolves continue to expand throughout the unit.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-17 AT 08:35PM (MST)[p]What's more sickening is the number of tags the Game & Fish continues to a lot and market hunts like unit 32 as "opportunity hunts" not trophy hunts. I talked with some game wardens and makes me sick at the attitude toward areas with high tag numbers and try to convince me there are many quality areas for mature trophies. Other than 2B, 2C and 5B and a few other with very little tags the rest are just sad.

In addition I wish the G&F tried as hard at deer as they did with Big Horn. Sad almost every animal in the state cost more than deer tag including non native. Maybe we can raise the tag costs and invest in mule deer. I had ANOTHER frustrating deer hunt and makes me disgusted. Sorry for the rant but I'm just sick over the lack of deer.
 
I have spent over a decade now in the 16's, mostly a and c. The deer herd is better than it has been, but still pretty sorry in my opinion. I have taken some small bucks, and know a particular group that harvests deer every yr...but overall it's a tough tag with low success and not much horn quality. Deer don't have much of a chance with the number of tags. They could recoup the money from less tags in each unit by increasing a deer tag to say $66 consistent with javelina and antelope. Seems easy to me...but what do I know?
 
Could not agree more with last 2 posts. Deer herd is beaten to death. Lower number of tags and raise the price.
 
Serious question.

Do you guys want the higher deer prices to offset the numbers of reduced tags, or is it to simply weed people out?
 
Only to offset prices. Give these units a chance to rebound. Success rate should not be in the teens for a deer hunt.
 
>Serious question.
>
>Do you guys want the higher
>deer prices to offset the
>numbers of reduced tags, or
>is it to simply weed
>people out?


Seriously? Lmao

No what I want is to go on a hunt that's a hunt not to camping trip and not see 400 does and 100 forks and 3 'mature bucks after 8 days and $1200. Than see 90 % of the deer killed be all 2 & 3 year old deer at best.

Take the money and off set the costs of lower tags and invest improving habitat as well. How is it ok to charge $104 for barbs that they want you to keep numbers and core areas small. But for deer less than half of that and it reflects it. How can unit 32 prove deer herds that a lot 1200 plus tags a year? It doesn't and it's insanity as well as the unbelievable term opportunity.

I have never heard of an opportunity Elk hunt or sheep hunt?

Why is it the game and fish patrol the crap out of the gila during the elk hunts and 2b in January but other units you hardly see a one game warden... I will give it up the game and fish had gotten much better but we still have a long way to go IMO.
 
I saw plenty of exceptional bucks in unit 16B this year for the bow season, only problem was I was hunting elk. Im sure the numbers aren't what they used to be but there are units that still hold giant deer. The key to any of these units is to get as far away as you can from the roads as possible. My top 3 units to kill a book buck with a strong possibility of drawing an archery tag are units 16,53,and unit 15.
 
These days, I don't think that raising the price to $70 to $100 would weed any applicants out. I do understand that it takes money to effectively manage the herd, but the deer herd needs a break.

If it were up to me, I'd cut the available tags in half and triple the cost of the tag for a couple years. I'd also try to figure out some incentives for hunters to concentrate their efforts on predators--maybe use the extra dollars from the increased tag prices to reward hunters for coyote kills.

Meat hunters can still go camping and spend the money that they would have otherwise spent on a tag at their local grocery store butcher.
 
Sorry but until the predators are controlled cutting tags is minor. 2 or 3 Lions kill more than cutting each unit by 100 tags. Then add poaching that seems to be a popular thing now.
 
Seriously, 2-3 lions take out that many (~30 deer, assuming a high 30% harvest rate on 100 tags) a year?

I was talking to a coworker and he suggested closing units for a year or 2 on a rotating basis. Sort of like crop rotation in my opinion. But boy would the draws odds when they open be low...
 
OCHO, pretty much sums it up. Deer are being treated like carp in NM.

Certainly know the message has been sent to NMGF in many forms, but, the just keep dumping tags into units like 34, 30 and 29.
 
>OCHO, pretty much sums it up.
> Deer are being treated
>like carp in NM.
>
>Certainly know the message has been
>sent to NMGF in many
>forms, but, the just keep
>dumping tags into units like
>34, 30 and 29.


23 also!!! They declared it a bone yard for deer .
 
So let me get this straight, you want to "weed out" hunters by raising tag costs???? Gee if that isnt saying lets make it a rich mans sport, what is? They do need to cut the tags, but they also need to be held accountable for spending. Deer are just not managed correctly in this state. The majority of management goes to elk, with others following. Deer is dead last in management. Every unit I have stepped on, I have found deer and some good bucks. Just have to know what you are doing and hunt hard. And I agree with predator management, as someone stated above. A cougar can eat up to a deer a week, thats 52 deer a year. Cutting tags in half would only stop the harvest of 20-30 deer in most units per weapon. So which one is more? Killing more predators or cutting tags in half. I have seen way too many coyotes, cougars, and yes wolves in the past decade in the woods. I believe accountability on behalf of the NMDGF, a vast cut in tags for just a couple of years, AND better predator control will do way more than "weeding out hunters". IMO, that is the LAST THING WE WANT TO DO.
 
So because a few of us can't find mature bucks or big bucks, we should cut the tags in half and raise them three times? Then people can buy their meat at the store, stay home and leave the woods all for yourself so you can hunt trophy animals? Talk about selfish. Maybe hire someone to help you out on your trophy quest. Don't forget to take the meat out though. Maybe you can give it to the meat hunter you don't want in your trophy woods.

I have seen deer in ever county I've been in in new mexico. Maybe that's why there are opportunity hunts for them and not elk.

If you think that raising prices and cutting tags is going to make every unit in new mexico a trophy mule deer unit, you're wrong. Fact is new mexico doesn't have the genes and habitat to produce huge bucks in every single unit. If some here are seeing 500 plus deer in an 8 day hunt and not seeing any mature deer, it's probably genetics not the maturity level of the herd. Obviously the deer numbers are super high because you probably missed a deer for every deer you saw. That's over 100 deer a day even if you didn't miss any! So what do we do about that? Cut tags until we see 300 deer a day and hope we get 2 or 3 deer that look "mature?
 
Willhille I AGREE. There are some units that are overhunted though. Every unit I have hunted(12, 21, 17, 16, 19, 33, 9, 34, 36) i have found deer. In almost every one of those unita I have found big deer. People want it easy, or 180" deer around every corner. Someobe said take your tag money to get steaks and just go camping.... What are you gonna buy with $40 these days?? A package of steaks? 5 lbs of hamburger? Some people are trophy hunters, I am not. I do it for the enjoyment of the sport. Like I said, I have found deer in every unit Ive hunted in this state, its a matter of working for them.
 
Willhille, not sure how familiar you are with the state, irregardless your comments make little sense.

Unit 34 has 2700 tags issued per year not including private land deer tags that are as easy as going to walmart and picking them up on the promise you are going to hunt private land.

Like I said, the mule deer population in NM is treated like carp.

Nobody is saying that it is about only having trophy units, that is your own melodrama in your post.

Nobody is saying to price it out of reach of people. Problem is that the NMGF is used to the revenue. 3 choices, continue as they are and finish decimating the deer herd.
Raise prices and reduce tags to offset the revenue loss.

Or reduce tags and leave tag prices the way they are and make it up somewhere else.

I watched a group of 24 does this rut and there was one fork buck with them for over 2 weeks. Okay, supposedly that fork will breed all the does. Not convinced, but, maybe that is the case.

However, if we issue those 3000+ tags in unit 34, and lets say 20% are killed. (using easy numbers), that is 600 dead deer, not including deer killed and never recovered.

600 dead bucks. Now a mountain lion does not care if he kills a buck or a doe. They are happy to kill either. If we kill 600 bucks in this unit, that means that the mountain lion will certainly kill a higher percentage of does, because the human predator killed most of the bucks.

Real simple, mule deer are a fragile rescourse and most of the other western states have adjusted to try to protect them. This state charges more for a barbary or javelina tag than a deer.

You can make your post sound as dramatic as you want, but, these are the facts.
 
NmPaul

Grew up here, live here now, in Las Cruces. I hunt deer every year in either 23, 21, or 24. I hunt elk in the same units. Seen some dandies in those units, and shot a few. Left way more on the mountain though.

I don't understand the price of javelina tags either, other than maybe they are that price to keep the price of deer down for families who hunt deer. Make it cheaper for young families to get out and enjoined our public lands and resources. I don't know just a guess.

About the lions, ok.

Please tell me where I am getting dramatic? I am lost on that one.
 
Well, I thought this was.

" Maybe hire someone to help you out on your trophy quest. Don't forget to take the meat out though. Maybe you can give it to the meat hunter you don't want in your trophy woods."


I cant remember any of the posts saying that it was all about trophy hunts.

Pretty sure most are just concerned about the deer population in general.

Dumping the amount of tags they are in some of these units his harming an already fragile deer population.

I have said many times, if someone wants their kids to hunt in this state, there is no reason they cannot hunt every year. Leftover tags, youth encouragement for cow elk, awesome youth hunts. Also, anyone that wants to hunt can normally come up with some of the easier units to draw. Deer are getting punished, and most other states have made adjustments.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-17 AT 09:42PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-17 AT 09:39?PM (MST)

I apologize if I offended anyone--some of the things you've implied about me are hilarious. :)

In my youth (back in the 60s and 70s), my dad getting a deer every year was considered a necessity to feed our family, so I understand that kind of hunting mentality. The $10 licenses were OTC and we would jump into a 57 GMC pickup with my uncle and my cousin (kids riding in the back)on opening morning and drive up the nearest mountain and shoot the first legal deer we saw and be home by noon, butchering our own deer and doing whatever else we could to minimize the expense associated with harvesting those deer. It was never about trophy hunting to us. But those days are long gone and I no longer see that kind of mentality, so I don't believe it's about sustenance anymore.

These days, it should be more about preserving the deer herds. I've taken the time to learn really well several units in this state (including 16). In all of them, I've seen huge drops in actual deer numbers just since I've been paying attention. It's alarming.

The hunters I encounter in the field these days are armed with 4x4s, ATVs, fifth-wheels, high powered rifles, scopes, binoculars, gps, cameras, backpacks, and mobile phones. If raising the tag price by $68 to $102 ($34 X 3) eliminates some people from being able to apply for a deer tag because it changes hunting to a "rich man's game" then I believe they've got much more important things to be worried about anyway.

For the record, I still eat every deer I kill and do all of my own butchering. Probably because I was raised on it, I actually like deer meat better than beef, but I don't know that I've ever met anyone else that feels the same way... :)
 
That's it Paul I am concerned with the Deer and not my personal goals or success. As you stated I don't even put my kids in for deer because it actually discouraged them not seeing many animals. And that is not improving its declining.... I want things to improve to have a great time hunting its not all about killing.

I could kill a deer every year but that's truly not what its about! I just wish the prioritization of the Game & Fish was on Muley's like it was on other animals.

Every unit has nice bucks but the number of nice bucks and or mature bucks declines yearly especially the units with high tag allocations. 2B never has that issue, nor the Sandia's or 2C but guess what they don't have thousands of tags. There is also no elk unit that offers up thousands of tags in particular like the Gila. I do find it funny places like 16A with 100tiems more elk than Unit 10 have same tag allocations... That is what I am saying they manage certain units that they know are great and just throw other numbers out for units that don't deserve the high allocations...


Whatever you take from it state needs to step up the deer management and fast!
 
As for "I find deer every year ,every unit and good ones,can't help it if you can't" stuff,I can find deer. That's not the problem we are talking about,it's easing up on wiping them out.

I remember how good the deer were here 45-50 yrs ago.Some these days would call them toads or something stupid.
We called them nice deer and saw lots of them. And maybe a few of you will come close to the filled tags #'s I and some others here have filled in our lives.

Deer tag prices could be doubled and not be a burden on anyone I know really.
 
There is a reason that leftover tags are available for several units each year. It's because the number/quality of deer in those units is so piss poor nobody wants to apply for them. But NMDGF needs/wants $ so badly they put those tags up after the regular draw and make sure every tag is sold.

It's touted as providing hunter opportunity, but it's hammering an already poor population of mule deer in those units.

I've been in NM since 1996 and while I've become a better and better hunter, I've steadily seen less and less deer. Scientific? no. But nearly every hunter says deer numbers are down.

How can we help the deer? Increase pressure on predators and poachers and decrease tag numbers. Maybe enhance water sources: least make sure the Habitat Stamp Program drinkers we have paid for are operational! (on that note, it's not the tree huggers who shoot holes in the catchment tanks with firearms...)

To decrease tag numbers and keep same revenue to NMDGF, that means tag prices need to increase.

I've spent my share of armed camping trips looking for deer in recent years. Something needs to change.

Carl
 
Awhile back the Burro Mountains were closed for a couple of years to help out the deer herd and it seems as though it helped the population rebound. In a perfect world, I'd do the following-

Break the state into quadrants-
NW
NE
SE
SW

Within each quadrant, ONE unit is closed off to rifle season for a minimum of 1 year (depending on population). Once it re-opens, another unit rifle season is closed.

Example-
-SW Region: Total of 9636 draw tags, not including youth and mobility impaired hunts
-Unit 23 Rifle: 1250 tags (13% of total SW region tags)
-RAISE PRICE OF THE REMAINING TAGS IN THE REGION BY 13%, G&F does not lose any money.
-When Unit 23 is re-opened for rifle, tags are reduced in half but the price of the license is doubled for 2 years. G&F does not lose money. Hunters would be willing to pay this and it becomes a semi-premier unit much like the Burros have done since the closure.

In this scenario this would allow 3 years for a unit to recover- 1 closure, 2 with half the number of rifle licenses.

You know, this entails thinking and planning on the G&F Departments end instead of just picking a number and dumping tags....Never going to happen.
 
The Burros was awesome when they reopened it, but the deer herd is already in a state of hurt...just like everywhere else.

Predator control is a bigger issue than most admit. The good old days of 50+ years ago had some heavy predator management practices that are no longer common.

Everything was OTC then...

We have since put a lot of priority on other species (elk), and hunting tech has advanced significantly in all weapon types.

Not sure what the numbers of hunters in the field look like from then to now, but some areas have become more popular in my time; bowhunting, in my opinion due in part to hunting TV shows.
 
The burros deer herd is definitely in dismay. I spent a good amount of time over there this year as we had a rifle hunt in that area. I heard more shooting outside of the burros than in. After putting on miles and miles each day, we finally found a legal buck on day 4 or 5 but that's it. We did see lots of coues and muley does which was encouraging, but the bucks were hard to come by, even in the steep nasty country far from roads. The habitat is great, there was water everywhere with lots of established drinkers and there wasn't a whole lot of pressure so I'm not sure why that population is declining again. Predators or disease maybe.

Elk are especially getting hammered by TV show crews. I think I saw a dozen episodes on the outdoor channel last fall hunting the same areas in the Gila I do. It's definitely put a damper on the big bulls, as guides find them, and keep eyes on them for weeks until the client gets there and then they put them down. Tough for them to survive anymore. I don't like the trend, but it's not illegal per se so not a whole lot I can do about it. I'd like to see a ton of law changes with regards to outfitters/guides and their habits, but that's another conversation. And just for the record, I am a registered guide and have worked for a few outfitters. Just wanted that to be clear.

As for the deer...I standby my original thought and mirror what others have said. Reduce tags, take out more predators, close down units for a few years and see if our deer rebound a bit. It would also help if lion hunts didn't cost an arm and a leg. If I could find one for a reasonable price...say $500-$1k, I'd hunt them every year. As it is, I buy the tag and look each year...but without dogs...it's a futile endeavor and not enough lions are harvested. The average guy isn't going to shell out $5k every year to hunt cats (which seems to be the going rate). It's just not feasible for most people in this state.

As for the yotes...smoke em gents! We can't put enough of those suckers down!
 
I'm getting lion tags just in case.I don't use dogs either.$42 for 2?
I know folks that do the same thing while shed hunting in off season.I have standing offer to run down any I find by the lion hunters w/dogs I do know just to run them.I get to shoot. They say.
Everyone around here hunts coyotes too.Just seem to stay the same numbers and the rodents are all around.

Good ideas overall here and I know G&F watches....
Here's some more....
Elk.
Make some units OIL. Or every 3 yr draw.
Some units are also being hammered as trophy units and have suffered. We do not want to be known as another raghorn state.34/36 come to mind.
9&10 are now bad,what's up with that besides poaching & tags?
I've never drawn a 16adc tag either.I hear of folks in groups going 6 yrs straight.
 
Barbary hunt coming up for me--got to get a lion tag too. Who knows: if my name was Paul I'd probably score a double.
 
The only place I can ever find lions anywhere consistent without dogs is the florida's. I've seen them on a few occasions now...but everywhere else it's just fleeting glimpses. I just spent 4 days in the otc sheep hills with 3 other solid hunters...we never put eyes on a lion dang it...although I had the tag with me just in case. I plan on trying to find an ol' wary cat in the Florida's as soon as that bow hunt is over while it's still cold and the snakes are still under rocks.

Good luck in the upcoming draw fellas.
 
As much as I hate carrying the extra weight, I carry a light 308 rifle in my pack when shed hunting just in case I run into a lion, coyote, or wild pig.
 
One other funny thing Game & Fish does is have a "primitive hunt" aka muzzle or lower for elk but allow riffle for deer. Hmmm again no management for the deer but there is for elk. Unit 13 which I know well and have hunted many times is victim to this and there are other.

Mt Taylor all muzzle. Than some bright group of individuals decide to make a cow hunt with what weapon?? That's right, a riffle in anothe primitive unit. Well what heapon the the high number of elk and particularly the cows? Gonzo and now the unit blows for the most part compared to prior times of the cow massacres....

If we are going to have primitive units make them that way for all animals and not allow something more.

Food for thought on these things also...
 
$500-$1000 for a lion hunt. What are you smoking? That doesn't even cover the cost of dog food.

Dog food, tracking collars, fuel, wear and tear on your vehicle, mules or horses, hay, etc. You have to feed, train and exercise the dogs year round. $4-5,000 starts to look like a bargain. If you are getting a lion hunt for less than that, I would be very careful because you will likely just be sightseeing in the woods for a few days behind a pack of half-starved deer chasers.

Yes, I too believe the deer herd is hurting in a lot of parts of the state. I don't think killing all lions is the answer. Different areas have different problems. It can be habitat, water sources, coyotes, lions, poachers, EHD, too many tags, etc. I think G&F needs to do a better job on adjusting tags quickly based on population data. It always seems like they are riding a roller coaster and are a few years behind on making the changes that need to be made.
 
The number one cause for the deer herd declines in the SW part of NM was in the late 80's when the fur market went to heck and just about everyone quit trapping coyotes. We saw a steady decline in deer numbers and they fell off sharply during the nineties.

Our deer herd is in a predator pit as the biologists label it. A healthy deer herd will sustain predation by lion, bear and coyote. With deer herd in low numbers predators have a big impact on deer. Coyotes take by far most of the fawn crop. Couple this with over 2500 tags let in unit 23 our deer herds sucks and buck population is very, very low. We saw several groups of muley does with either no buck or a small fork horns tending them. Unit 23 has been declared an opportunity unit by the Game Dept. at the wishes of many hunters mainly from the Silver City area whom want to hunt every year irregardless of whether they kill a deer or not. At the public meeting setting the four year rotation the majority of the public's at those meetings want opportunity not a quality hunt.

They used to do coyote control by helicopter in northern Grant County and a time or two up into Catron County and we had good numbers of antelope down on the Moon Ranch Flats and lots of deer. Now there are very few to no antelope, and low deer numbers.

The Ake Ranch at Datil does a helicopter hunt for coyotes every year now for many years and they brought there antelope population up from a drastically low number to about 400. It helped their deer numbers also.

Garth Carter whom was a biologist for the State of Utah and then formed The Huntin Fool came out with an article a couple of years ago and reinforced the fall in deer numbers in most of the west due to coyote predation. He is one of the few Game Dept. biologists whom will back this theory.

Kevin Rodham the SW Area NMDGF Game Manager has always said that killing bucks has no affect on the deer herds. You can't change his mind.

The three pint restriction they had a few years ago was working and they nixed that beneficial program,

Close the season two years, institute aggressive coyote control and then cut the number by half.In unit 23 they have a muzzle hut with 325 tags followed by the first rifle with 500 tags and then the second rifle with 500 more plus a boo koo of youth, archery and other hunts. They have almost wiped out the Coues bucks in unit 23 with the success rates continuing to go down.

The Dept. does an extremely bad job of managing our deer!

We hunted unit 16 with two hunters this past fall and we hunted hard and covered a lot of country (horseback in the wilderness). We finally got one decent muley and one 110 6/8 Coues. We saw very few deer.
 
I was dusting them left in right in 32! Turns out they don't like VLD sandwiches out of the 6.5 x 284! I try to always have a rifle for that purpose!
 
>Stoney nailed it ..

Yep,pretty much.
Been hunting around 23 since 63'and after last year I'm done.
Thought I was in Bakersfield.
 
I was out Javelina hunting this weekend and watched a big Coyote try and tackle a 3x3 Muley buck bedded in a sand wash. He was way out of archery range so all I could do was watch. The coyote was ultimately unsuccessful, but he gave it a full on try. If they're that serious about taking out a buck, fawns don't stand a chance. Smoke those suckers.

On another note, it was like watching a national geographic or planet earth episode. Cool to see.
 

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