Ut 07 proc out.

not too hard to look at the 06 link and figure it out--it was out when I checked yesterday, just thought I would give you all a nice christmas present before I leave today. You can thank me later:)

Todd Black
BTO
 
EASY BESSY

Todd, thanks for the heads up!!

One thing I did notice was on page 28 and 29
it defines a management bull as having one side with 5 points
or less.

Then on page 29 we get section 7 (a) Management bull elk permit holders who successfully harvest a managemnt bull elk as defined in subsection 1 ( a ) and have their animal inspected by the Division, will have their bonus points reinstated and
waiting period for limited bull elk removed.

I understood this hunt as using bonus points and waiting periods if you drew the tag. I also understood this hunt was for a 5x5 only.

HEY KITTY WHAT'S THE BIGGEST 5X6 YOU'VE EVER SEEN??

THE ONLY ww THAT WISHES EVERYBODY A MERRY CHRISTMAS
ESPECIALLY YOU BESS. BRING ON THE NIP
 
RE: EASY BESSY

Thats a bunch of crap if they let those guys keep their points! My hell the guys with max points can go shoot a 350 5x6 damn near every year!! UTAH DWR FTMFL!!!


:( Somebody didn't like bouncing betty :(
 
RE: EASY BESSY

I read that too, and have to say I still think it's pretty tempting for a guy in my shoes with 11 points.

Sounds like the adcentive to kill a bull is there. Kill a 5xsomething bull and get your points back-even if it's a dink raghorn on the last day (great management tool.....). I could happily hang my tag on a couple of big 5x6s for a couple of years in a row.

Does anybody know if you get to accrue a point for the year as well? Or do you just keep the number of points you went into the draw with? If you gain a point it's a no brainer for me!:)
 
RE: EASY BESSY

It says that you accrue points on management hunts just like any LE hunt. If they are reinstating the points then I assume it is all of them. Nothing says that you loose one.
 
RE: EASY BESSY

That's what I thought, but just wanted to be sure.

I'm thinking I may have to take advantage of this one for a year or two.

When I get sick of shooting big old 5xsomethings I'll try to swing a premo tag.... I need some more practice anyways.

NOTE-I think it's kind of a screwy deal for sure, I didn't make the rules, but I think I'll try to play this game.

The main bummer is that's when I should be hunting muleys in Colorado:(
 
RE: EASY BESSY

wiley!!!

9 X 5 & 389"!!!

WOULD I SHOOT ONE LIKE THAT???

NOT A CHANCE!!!

UNLESS I GOT THE CHANCE!!!

IN 2002 I SEEN AN OLDER FELLER TAKE A SPECTACULAR 6 x 5!!!

THATS WAY TOO MUCH OPPORTUNITY GIVEN!!!

THE ONLY bobcat HOPEING ALL THE PISSCUTTER KILLERS ARE HAPPY NOW & MERRY CHRISTMAS BACK AT YOU!!!
 
RE: EASY BESSY

BESS I don't know that happy is the word I'd use
but I can see some definate potential and would have to think that this is ALMOST a step in the right direction.

Todd great article in the new MDF Mag what a great story
my dad is 81 and I had a similar experience with him
in the last year he was able to get up the hill. I'm going to need some advice in the upcoming months from ya if ya don't mind

San Juan bow only, grew up running sheep on the Monroe
decisions, decisions.

THE ONLY ww THAT NEEDS TO DECIDE WHICH UNIT
 
RE: EASY BESSY

Well, I hope those dipsh!ts fix this proclamation before they print it.

If no waiting period applies to those who follow the 5 point rule, does this mean I can apply while on the 5 year waiting period? I wonder if the DWR brain trusts thought about it?
 
RE: EASY BESSY

Sorry Ktc that's about the only loop hole they closed. It said those on waiting period could not apply.

They should call them the energizer management bull tags, they keep on going and going and going...................
 
Looks to me that UT wants a lot of people to knock the 6th point off that 380" 6x6 bull, then take it to the taxidermist to get replaced, claiming it was a 5x6, not a 6x6. I hope that doesn't happen, but I suspect it may.

What a strange rule. Not that it affects me, as I am in the NR antelope pool, with 8 points. I am getting close enough that I can see the top of the pile.

Pick me, Pick me!

I hope Santa fills all your stockings with the Limited Entry hunt tag that you want.

Merry Christmas!

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
RE: EASY BESSY

Do we know if bonus points are considered in the draw? I was told that they were not. A person with one point has as good of chance of drawing as one who has 12. Will people loose a point for drawing? Will they loose a point (not gain one) for applying for management hunts? I would like to know all the answers. Can't get the proc to come up. Thanks
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-06 AT 05:34PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-06 AT 05:30?PM (MST)

Just when I thought they would no way allow applicants to keep bonus points if this new hunt was to be drawn.The units they have for management elk hunts are some of the best in the state.With 10 points I am thinking about trying one of these units now if I can keep my points.I say get it while the getting is good.This is my opinion they will use 2007 for a trial and error after this year they will make applicants use all bonus points if they draw and also have at least a 3-5 year waiting period.Whenever there is a new hunt like this most wont jump right in with both feet.Wish I would have on the 2005 Wasatch late elk hunt live and learn I guess.What did that hunt make it 2 years now they will do away with that one to many big bulls were killed.Just because the hunting takes place in November does not meen it wont be a great hunt.Look at Nevada for example I see plenty of big bulls being taken later after the rut.I know where my dad that is over 65 will be putting in if he dont have to use his bonus points why not give it a try?i just think he has enough points to draw within 3 years on this management hunt but not enough to draw anything else so why not?
I would bet some big busted bulls get killed that are left on the mountain.What if a point is busted which makes it look as if it is a 5 on one side?I have seen them busted right down to the main beam and you would never know the difference.
This will be very interesting and the San Jaun archery elk hunt for those that just have to have them screaming.There are some dang nice 5 point bulls on the mountain.Elk on some of these units would be larger than most people have ever had a chance at in any state.
Good luck to those that apply for this new elk hunt I would bet it will cost bonus points in 2008.
Thats just my opinion.And it should cost bonus points this would get applicants through the system so much quicker.
Can anyone answer this will they be giving any non-resident tags for the new hunt?This would be a sleeper if they do and not lose any points.
Good luck hope to many big mature bulls dont get taken and everyone with tags that shoot a 6x6 or larger man up and take the penalty dont just go shoot another bull and leave one lay.
 
Antler1,

Damn that is good news! There for a minute I thought I may have to worry about elk again. I vote they kill all of the stinky bulls. Might help the deer situation some?;-)
 
It's official, the DWR are idiots. :) Oh wait, that was official a few years ago--

This management tag stuff is a piece of work. At least they could have given us people on waiting periods a shot. NOOOOO... let's let everyone with a ton of points shoot 3 or 4 elk, then give them a premo tag while the rest of us chase Elk on general units. Great job DWR. Am I bitter? Hell yes, this is a joke and so narrow minded it's pathetic. They had a chance to just add them to the pool, provide opportunity to those seeking it and they FUBAR it!

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
So here's a wonderful scenario for some of you...

Take your max points and draw a Management tag. Cruise Pahvant for that elusive 400 bull... ahhh.. can't find him, last day- pop a 5x6 that's broken off (it is a late hunt, so easily could find some dandies broken up). Turn him in, get your points back and do it all over again. It's like free scouting/hunting for that 400 bull packing a gun if you find one.

If the UDWR was thinking on this one (which they weren't) why put it in November when big bulls are banged up. I've seen some monsters on Monroe that are awesome 6x6's that would qualify under these rules. A taxidermist can fix the point and you are golden. You have a dandy 6x6 with a management tag.

Anyone want to guess the over/under on poached animals on this deal? Hurry Jimmy Chitwood, shoot, shoot, he's a 5x6, walk up, he's a 6x6, but not the trophy you want, oh crap, let's get out of here..... you know it's going to happen.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
Kirt,

You nailed it! I was telling a guy tonight I am so glad to be done with Utah elk. Every year it is something like this. Opportunity was the cry last year, now that they have the chance to add it, they remove all opportunity by not making people use points. For the love of god, you need to use points on a cow elk, but not a %X on Pahvant?! There is no added opportunity, only to those with double digit points. They say there are so many applicants, well, that will never change. Just think, with max points you can hunt in a premium unit, with low pressure, and 100% success, year after year. mrs. ktc has all but one point. Maybe an annual Pahvant 5X hunt will be on my plate every year? My wife will have so many 5X5's, 5X6's, 5X7's, 5X8's it will be like a museum in my house. You guys with less than 10 points better start a major uproar. Like I said, I hunt deer now. Piss on the elk.;-)

Idiotic, FUBAR, and pathetic. Sums up the management elk hunt rules pretty good.
 
AS I STATED A WHILE BACK!!!

DEWALT,RIDGID,MILWAUKEE,BLACK & DECKER & BOSCH WILL ALL BE SELLING TWICE AS MANY CORDLESS SAWZALLS & GRINDERS!!!

IT TOOK YOU GUYS THIS LONG TO FIGURE THE UDWR OUT???

THE ONLY bobcat WITH BIRDUM,IF I'D OF KNOWN WHAT WAS GONNA HAPPEN ON THE LATE HUNTS A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO I MIGHT OF BEEN POINTLESS RIGHT NOW!!! :D :D :D
 
JJUUDDAASS PPRRIIEESSTT!!!

JJUUDDAASS FFRRIICCKKEENN PPRRIIEESSTT!!!

DOUBLE ####ING CAPS-LOCK!!!

ktc!!!

I'LL LONE YOU & MS ktc MY CORDLESS SAWZALL IF YOU NEED IT!!!

JUST BE GLAD YOU EXPERIENCED WHAT YOU DID THIS LAST YEAR BUD!!!

YOU'VE SEEN IT COMMING & SO HAVE I!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHO'S PIPE DREAM THIS WAS???
 
RE: JJUUDDAASS PPRRIIEESSTT!!!

It does say that you have to wait five years if you do kill one to apply again. At least that is a plus. You will be five years behind on points when you can start putting back in.
 
RE: JJUUDDAASS PPRRIIEESSTT!!!

BESSY If ya don't apply for these units
what does it matter?? This could actually be the help ya need
to get your 443 non pisscutter tag drawn.

You know as well as I do that this ain't gonna last more than
a year.

Put out more freaking tags on every unit that can sustain more tags and quit screwing around with all the B.S. regulations. I told ya this was going to happen back when it was first proposed. I remember telling ya about accidental harvest, shooting the genetics out of the herds within a few years and more hunters in the field with the non pisscutter hunters.
 
RE: JJUUDDAASS PPRRIIEESSTT!!!

BIG-

2. Bull Elk (5-year waiting period)
R657-5-31

(4) Management bull elk permit holders who successfully harvest a management bull elk as defined in Section XVIII.G (1)(a), and have their animal inspected by the Division will have their waiting period for limited bull elk removed.

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
Guys - settle down. I am with you on this one. It's a good idea for a management tool but they should have constructed this thing a little better.

ktc -
it's not going to be as easy to draw this tag as you think. I think the percentage is 20. That translates into 7 total permits for San Juan (out of 34). If there is 50,000 applicants for elk and only 1% of the applicants (500) put in for this hunt, you will have a 1/71 chance of drawing it. There are LE areas that have better odds than that. Don't start booking your taxidermist just yet.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
I guess I have been out of the loop and am confused.Will somebody please explain this new hunt to me?I have 7 bonus points as a non-resident.Does this pertain to the limited entry hunt I have been putting in for, or is this different?My brother told me something about this the other day, but I am not quite sure how this works.Does this mean someone can draw a limited entry tag and shoot a 5x6 and still keep their points?I hope I am lost on this one because if that is true,Well I don't want to get worked up yet until I find out for sure what is going on.Somebody please explain this to me!
 
nvguy2 - this hunt will be a specific hunt # for a few of the LE areas that have a really high bull to cow ratio. You have to put in for this specific hunt. By this I mean, if you draw a San Juan permit and kill a 5x6 you will still lose your points. You have to draw this hunt specifically. I believe that they set aside 20% of the permits for this management hunt. The units that it affects are San Juan, Paughvant, and a West Desert unit. Check out huntOdds post above.

It's always an adventure!!!
 
I believe I remember several complaints last year in regard to old age bulls and high bull:cow ratios doing the health of the herd no-good? I imagine the new managment hunts are in response to those complaints?

There may or may not be a way to cull old age class bulls that aren't doing the herd any good? I would certainly think figuring out whether this will actually improve the health of the herd is lot more important than who is getting what tags...if indeed culling these bulls is desireable?

It seems like the way the management hunts are currently set up is already destined for failure? The 5 pt rule seems a little wishy-washy to me. It seems like it would be to easy for guys to shoot a good 6x bull and break off a tine? It is amazing what a good taxidermist can do! I'm not sure how to get around the 5 pt rule though?

Allowing hunters the option of using their pts if they happen to shoot a giant bull or getting re-inbursed pts if they shoot a 5x that is checked in? I had always thought UT was trying to figure out strategies to maximize hunter opportunity, use of pts, and allow the next people in line a chance to hunt? How the current management elk hunts are designed doesn't seem to do any of these things?
 
NVguy, It looks like nonres are getting the shaft on the new management elk hunts. All hunts are high-lighted in blue in the regs which means there won't be any nonres tags. There were 48 premium elk tags issued to UT residents last year but 0 to nonres....doesn't seem fair to me? What ever happened to the 10% of total tags to nonres!

You can tell UT elk tags are a prized commodity these days can't you? I just hope UT continues to produce whoppers bulls so we all have a chance to hunt them some day!
 
jims,
Hang in there you are close to drawing I am sure of it maybe even better odds than me and I am a resident.
 
RE: JJUUDDAASS PPRRIIEESSTT!!!

HEY wiley!!!

ONE THING ABOUT IT!!!

EVERY TIME YOU MENTION ME YOU KEEP RAISING THE SCORE!!!

443 HUH???

NON PISSCUTTER???

WAIT TILL theridge HEARS ABOUT A 443" NON-PISSCUTTER TYPE BULL!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WAITING FOR THE NEW UTAH BIBLE TO SHOW UP!!! :D :D :D
 
Hey Guy's,

You all know I am the ultimate opportunist. I believe that there is room to harvest more bulls on these units.

That being said, the rule to keep points and no waiting periods is complete bull crap. If you hunt, you pay with your points and you should wait it out like everyone else.

I was at the Wildlife Board mtg and as I recall NOT 1 RAC recommended this WITH the right to keep points and no waiting period. It was quite obviuos that the public from each region was against the hunter keeping points, no waiting period etc. This passed off a motion from the WB. We blame the DWR and they should share the blame but coming from someone who was actually at some of the mtg's, this falls on the WB.

As I understood it from the mtg there would be very few permits and they would be new permits not taking any from the current hunt tag numbers.

The only saving grace is I believe as many of you do, that this will get fixed by next year! All I know is if I had close to max points I would apply and shoot the biggest baddest broken horned bull I could find! It does not say they cannot be broken in the proc. It seems they did not think this through very well did they?

Merry Christmas to you all!

Chad
 
Silentstalker,
I would think they would give more permits than just 7 for the management units if they want to reduce numbers of bulls 7 would not take enough out but who knows until after the draw at how many permits will be given?
I also think they will change this in 2008 and applicants will lose bonus points and have a waiting period applied.Maybe this is the year to try this new hunt.Its sounds like a great oppurtunity to get a couple bulls using this method otherwise you would only draw once in your lifetime.Take a big 5 by whatever or big broken bull in 2007 and try for a trophy bull unit the next year.How could a guy go wrong but this would be the year to try it if you have high points before it gets changed.San Jaun archery looks like a good one to me with 10 or more points if you did not harvest you still had a great time and could just put in again in 2008 and try again.
It has me thinking about trying it but I want more details first if you dont lose any points and can even gain one even if a applicant does draw the management hunts is what I want to know.
 
I couldn't sit on my hands on this one. I just emailed the entire board:

"Dear Board Members-

I recently downloaded the new 07 big game proclamation and was appalled to see the following:

2. Bull Elk (5-year waiting period)
R657-5-31
(1) A person who??..
?(4) Management bull elk permit holders who successfully harvest a management bull elk as defined in Section XVIII.G (1)(a), and have their animal inspected by the Division will have their waiting period for limited bull elk removed.?

In all due respect, this is pathetic and represents your failure to listen to the public at the highest level. For years you have listened to the outcry of ?more opportunity? and ?better odds?, yet those who still want you to ?keep our trophies?. Some sportsman don't care if it takes them 20 years to draw an Elk tag to chase that elusive 400 bull, others just want to hunt quality Elk and all of us want better odds. These management tags were the perfect opportunity for you to begin to please everyone. You could have simply added these tags into the current system and kept it simple. It would have provided opportunity to those seeking to just hunt some of these wonderful 5xX?s. What makes my stomach churn is the fact that you choose not to listen to the public. I don't think a single RAC recommended this? In fact, those who attended the Wildlife Board meetings where very confused as to what you did pass. Do you even know or were you like the rest of us who had to wait for the proclamation to come out to find out?

By ignoring the public and creating this horrible loophole, you have now provided opportunity all right. You now have given people with a lot of points the chance of killing large elk, over and over again. Let's say John Doe draws one of these tags with max points. He chases his trophy bull on the Pahvant, doesn't find him, so he shoots a 5x6 on the last day. John takes it in, gets it checked, gets his points back, etc. Jim?s in the pool again next year with a nice bull on the wall. I personally have extensive knowledge of a couple of these units and I know some dandy 5xX?s exist every year. Jim turns around and does it again, year after year. Yeah, he won't draw every year, but he has that chance. Finally, John finds his monster bull, shoots him, doesn't turn him in. It's OK, he will go on the waiting period now, he's got his trophy. You just lowered opportunity for others and created a loophole that will potentially allow sportsman to hunt these units year after year. You are keeping more people in the bonus pool and letting them kill more elk. I won't even begin down the path of how unfair this is to those already on waiting periods.

I would strongly encourage you to look at this. I would encourage to remove #4 above in the future and create a true opportunity tag. A tag that will allow you to complete your management objective, but also remove people from the bonus pool at the same time. It's simple, effective and will begin to please a lot of sportsman.

Finally, I do praise you for setting aside many of these tags for our Youth/Seniors. Good job. This is a great first step for providing more youth opportunity in our state.

Thanks for your time and have a great holiday season-
Kirt Connelly
North Ogden"

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
Kirt C.
You just hit the nail on the head to what I am thinking about the new management hunts.Lets say my father who will be applying for one of these elk tags gets drawn he would not care if he had a waiting period and lose his points but did like the idea of maybe improving his odds on getting to hunt before he cant do it anymore.The only way I can see it improving odds would be getting more applicants out of putting in for the trophy units which would help overall odds a little but not much.
I am behind your thoughts on what you are saying. With my points I would be crazy not to try this but wont I want out as soon as I can get out.I dont care if I only draw one permit in my lifetime that will be good enough for me.
This new hunt is a great tool to get applicants out of the system and still have a good hunt.They have to change this to lose the points and have a 5 year waiting period this is the only way the odds can be improved for all to enjoy more hunting oppurtunity and better odds of drawing tags.I think they will just add more units in 2008 for management bull elk hunts if things work out.I was under the impression if you kill a 6x6 you lose your bull as well as your points and waiting periods will be applied?It is very confusing to say the least.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-06 AT 02:55PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-06 AT 02:52?PM (MST)

elkantlers give me your e-mail and I will send the 07 proc to you.Just pm me with your e-mail address.
I guess yours has been disabled?
 
I appreciate your letter to the board Kirt. The general public needs to get more involved in this process. It is always the same 50 guy's at these mtg's and the same agenda is always pushed.

I was at the mtg and I have read the proc. I am still confused. I understood that if you drew out you could turn in your bull and get your points back with no waiting period (which I believe is bogus). I also understood it to be like any other drawing where you do not acrue a point if you draw because you were successful (this would put you 1 point back each time you drew). So, if you had 10 points AND drew, you would kill a 5x? turn in your bull to be checked and the next year you could apply for any hunt BUT with only 10 points again instead of 11. Most of you seem to read it differently. While I believe it is wrong to allow them to keep their points w/ no waiting period I think it is even worse if they are allowed to hunt AND acrue a point if they drew!

Reread it and tell me what you guy's think actually happens. I am out of the elk race but still seem to get caught up in this as my wife and brother/ in laws are still trying!

It is at this point that I would have to say that this could have all been avoided by increasing tags by 5-10% with a close monitoring of the herd bull quality. All these bogus rules and reg's are getting out of control! Happy Holidays.

Chad
 
I just sent a letter to the Board as well. It would be good if each of you who are not in favor of this points/waiting periods stuff to do the same. Their e-mails can be found under WB/ rac's on the DWR website.
 
Now that it is gone, hopefully someone will pull their head out of their ass, and rewrite the management hunt rules.

I do not think the whole idea is bad, it is the bonus point thing that is a bunch of BS. There are a lot of people who would gladly spend their points for these hunts. I would try it with only a few points. If you kill an elk in Utah points should be spent. There are way too many people hoping to draw some day. Each person should get a chance to increase their odds with an unsuccessful letter.

I did not kill a 400 last year. I should be able to turn in my bull for verification of this and get my points back?
 
chkuat wrote:
The 2007 Big Game Proclamation is available at the following link.
http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/proclamations/2007_biggame/2007_big_game.pdf

Geech, I hadn't even created a link to the file yet and you guessed where it was. In any case, it's not quite ready for official release yet, so I've removed it (sorry). What you managed to find was the almost ready version which I need to replace within the next day or two by the official version we just sent to the printer. Maybe I'll put in a little time from home this afternoon and finish it up ? I'd hate to make you guys wait until after Christmas.

I can't hurry up the printed version, though. The printer is working on that now, and it should be distributed immediately after New Years Day.
_________________
Cory Maylett
Communications Program Coordinator,
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources

Maybe the management hunts are what needs to be made official? This is from the DWR site.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-06 AT 08:55AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-06 AT 08:09?AM (MST)

Looks like applicants who draw management bull elk hunts can keep all points once they have the bull checked by the DWR.Others and myself can only hope this will be changed in 2008 to where they lose all bonus points and waiting periods will apply.How many will try for these new permits is the question?How many permits will they give for these great elk units is another question.The San Jaun archery hunt would give applicants the chance to still hunt bulls in the rut.
The Pahvant,South West Desert and Monroe units will have some huge bulls that will be 5 point bulls on one side.
The question has been asked many times on here why would they allow tag holder to keep points after such a great hunt and oppurtunity to harvest great bulls still.No waiting periods?Why do those that are in waiting periods now do not get to participate in this new management hunt.Is it fair?I dont think it is but also dont mind I am not in a waiting period yet and if I draw this year will get to try again in 2008 maybe hunt back to back years if you lose points on a any bull hunt plan on that being a once in a lifetime elk hunt.A couple 310-340? bulls on the wall might not be a bad idea before going for the trophy tag where I can try and harvest a mongo bull.Look at it this way go down hunt big 5 point bulls and use it for scouting and learn the unit well until you want to draw the trophy bull tag.One other question I have will max point holders get 50% of the total tags?I think this will apply when they say once your animal is checked by DWR your points will be given back and no waiting periods will apply.I know for sure what I would do if I had max points get some serious elk hunting in until these rules are changed and the hunts cost all points and waiting periods apply.
Another question with 10 points what do you think my odds would be of drawing a San Jaun archery elk management tag?
The one thing I would also like to know is how many permits will be given for these great units?I would think around 20 per unit but who knows?I think if they want to get some bulls out of the way this is the year they will want to hammer them and see how this new hunt works out once this happens they will decrease the permits given until the herds are back in check.
One more question will a successful applicant still accrue a point for the year he draws a management bull tag?This would keep your points going and max point holders could stay at the top until they get tired of killing 5 point bulls and want to try and harvest the trophy of a lifetime.They will know the units very well if they can get 2 or 3 hunts in on these units before they want to go in on a trophy bull hunt.I also think they will be adding more units to the list where needed in the future if this hunt proves to be successful for putting herds back in check.
 
Sure wish I could access the site. (Although limited access for the past week might improve my turkey draw odds.)

The DWR makes a convenient scapegoat, eh? Let's give credit where credit is due. The DWR originally wanted to just increase the LE tag allotment and lower the management age. There's a story behind this one and it isn't over.

This will be a one year deal - intended to soften you up for next year's revised proposal. (You can't have a management hunt without having control and you can't control public hunters on public land.)

Don't keep your eyes glued to the pretty girl. Watch the magician.
 
C'mon guys take a minute to read it a little more closely.

Here are the regs:

G. Management Bull Elk Hunt R657-71
(1)(a) For the purposes of this section ?management bull? means any bull elk with 5 points or less on at least one antler. A point means a projection longer than one inch, measured from its base to its tip.
(b) For purposes of this section ?youth? means any person 18 years of age or younger on the opening day of the management bull elk archery season (August 23, 2007).
(c) For the purposes of this section ?senior? means any person 65 years of age or older on the opening day of the management bull elk archery season (August 23, 2007).
(2)(a) Management bull elk permits shall be distributed through the Division?s big game drawing. Thirty percent of the permits are allocated to youth, 30 percent to seniors and the remaining 40 percent to hunters of all ages.
(b) Applicants who wish to participate in the management bull elk drawing process may not apply as a group.
(3) Waiting periods as provided in XV.I.2, Bull Elk (5-year waiting period), are incurred as a result of obtaining management bull elk permits, except as provided in Subsection (7)
(4)(a) Bonus points shall be awarded when an applicant is unsuccessful in obtaining a management bull elk permit in the big game drawing.
(b) Bonus points shall be expended when an applicant is successful in obtaining a management bull elk permit in the big game drawing, except as provided in Subsection (7).
(5) Management bull elk permit holders may take one management bull elk during the season, on the area and with the weapon type specified on the permit. Management bull elk hunting seasons, areas and weapon types are listed on page 40 of this proclamation.
(6)(a) A person who has obtained a management bull elk permit must report hunt information within 30 calendar days after the end of the hunting season, whether the permit holder was successful or unsuccessful in harvesting a management bull elk.
(b) Management bull elk permit holders must report hunt information by telephone at 1-800-221-0659, or at wildlife.utah.gov.
(7)(a) Management bull elk permit holders who successfully harvest a management bull elk, as defined in Subsection (1)(a), and have their animal inspected by the Division, will have their bonus points reinstated and waiting period for limited bull elk removed.
(b) Successful hunters must deliver the head and antlers of the elk they harvest to a Division office for inspection within 72 hours of leaving the hunting area.
(8) Management bull elk permit holders may not retain possession of any harvested bull elk that fails to satisfy the definition requirements in Subsection (1)(a).
(9) A person who has obtained a management bull elk permit may not hunt during any other elk hunt or obtain any other elk permit, except as provided in Section R657-5-48(3).

A bull that does not have 5 points on one side is a violation of this regulation. All hunters are REQUIRED to have there animals inspected by the DWR and any illegal kills will be confiscated as well as there poins lost and they will be lose their points and will fall into the 5 year waiting period. I suspect someone who does not have their animal inspected will find the penalty far more severe as will those who are found to have "removed" points.

Hunters with maximum or near maximum points will need to realize the cost of drawing this tag. They will fall behind in points for each year they draw a tag. A bonus point is awarded only if an applicant does not successfully draw a tag. Points are reinstated which mean if a guy has 13 points he will be given his 13 points back but will not receive a bonus point for that year. Anyone that wants to hunt these units for the regular hunt would be insane to allow himself to fall back one point tier in an effort hunt a big 5x?. Even with max points your odds are no better than 20% if that good.

I'm not saying this is a great deal, but it certainly isn't as bad as some have made it out to be. Look it over closely before pulling out the pitch forks boys.
 
That is how I understand it as well Dalmer. Each successful applicant will NOT recieve a tag AND acrue a Bonus Point. There is a 1 point cost to each applicant. I believe this hunt is warranted but would prefer they just carefully increase tags for mature bulls keeping a careful eye on the quality and age classes. Merry Christmas everyone!

Chad
 
I sure hope this doesn't end up like a bunch of the 2 or 3 pt or better deer hunts where a lot of bucks get left where they are shot once hunters find out they aren't legal bucks after they are on the ground! What happens if a bull has a partially broken tine that is longer than 1"? A hunter may not be able to see this when he shoots him at 300 or 400 yards? With the mandatory check I wonder if a lot of bulls will be left on the ground? I sure hope not!
 
jims,
Cordless saw,some sand paper and stain will do the trick.Have the antler put back on by the taxidermist after check in.Bingo back to a 380 bull for the wall and only lose one bonus point.
On a serious note that is what worries me about this hunt hope hunters just dont shoot go look and if it is a 6x6 or larger leave it lay and go harvest another one.
 
"On a serious note that is what worries me about this hunt hope hunters just dont shoot go look and if it is a 6x6 or larger leave it lay and go harvest another one."

With stiff penalties for shooting a bull that doesn't qualify we all know this is going to happen! Especially that San Juan archery tag- Holy cow, at least with a rifle people know you fired a shot or two. With a bow, nothing, nobody will know. Hopefully the archers can at least count up close. :)

ODDNUT1
Kirt C.
Hunt Odds.com
 
I can see what will happen, the management bull hunters could make a very easy mistake and kill a trophy bull or I should say kill a bull with more than 5 points on each side.If the hunter is not ethical and does not report the mistake and take the heat the bull will be left to rot and when asked about it the answer will be NO I did not shoot at anything but the 5 point bull I got.It must have been a trophy bull hunter that wounded it and could not find it.NOT ME...I count that antlers first..This could leave so many bulls on the ground for the coyotes and birds to eat.I threw that in for the antis at least it wont go to waste and I know coyotes prefer 380 plus bulls over those small 5 point bulls more meat.......................................
 
Sorry guy's,

But I see the archery hunt as a real good thing for this hunt. This is my exact reason, at 0-50 yards it is a lot easier to count points. I don't think Bowhunters are any more or less ethical than rifle hunters. This hunt will be successful or not based upon the ethics of those who draw out. My hope is people who apply and draw will have the balls to actually hunt these giant 5 points or freak style bulls. Antler restrictions are sure a touchy subject. Let's hope people will do the right thing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-06 AT 09:38AM (MST)[p]There are several positive things in regard to management hunts during the archery season; however, there are also negative.

Obviously at 60 or less yards there likely won't be many mistaken bulls with 6 pts on a side. Also, the rifle mgt seasons are currently scheduled in November after the rut and after many giant 6x bulls have broken off a tine or 2. The archery hunt is scheduled in Aug/Sept before many of the bulls likely break off their tines in the rut. I would think Nov timing for this hunt would be the worst choice available because a higher percentage of the bulls shot could potentially be broken tined rather than straight 5x's?

On the negative side to having mgt ARCHERY tags is that generally speaking archery hunters are a poor choice for managing herd numbers or quality. Generally archery hunter harvest success is lower than rifle success. If it is a matter of hunter opportunity the archery mgt hunt would offer more hunters in the field with potentially lower success rates than rifle hunters. I really think it is crazy that no bonus pts are used when hunters draw these tags...which would be another positive aspect to these hunts!

Another negative aspect to the archery hunt is that it is generally easier to wound or have animals run off and die without being found with stick and string. It is hard to say how many guys will jump at a chance to draw one of these tags if the tags are easier to draw (and don't use bonus pts) even though they aren't dedicated archery hunters. Some of the guys that draw may end up picking up a stick and string for the first time and aren't prepared to archery hunt?

I sure hope there aren't a lot of bulls shot and left on the ground when it is seen they aren't 5x and the hunter knows there is a mandatory check! Pretty spooky thought and easy for hunters to do if you ask me!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-06 AT 11:57AM (MST)[p]How many might shoot a 6X6, tag it, and then report a no harvest. "Oops, I lost my tag too." Hopefully none. I think this whole thing is a disaster waiting to happen.

I think if there is a need for "management hunts", something is wrong! That is what private hunting clubs with high fences do to manage their trophies. A guide is needed to make sure young bucks/bulls aren't killed, but animals with inferior genetics.

If it must be done on our public lands, how about a conservation officer takes some lucky youth hunters down to the winter range where they shoot a BUNCH of true management bulls. It could all be done in a couple of days and the bulls that really need to be killed will be turned into camp meat. I think as it is most bulls harvested with these tags will be large antlered young bulls - the very ones we want to keep in these herds.

I fear that this will eventually turn into a "guide required hunt" where the true professional will be able to hold the hand of the hunter and make sure they kill the right kind of bull.
 
I think this is a good hunt. If the hunter can't make sure it has only 5 points on one side don't shoot. Plenty of bulls and time. Very few tags will be given in this first year. They hunters who draw should burn points and have a waiting period for sure.
 
I know if my father draws this year I will be there with him making sure he does not shoot a 6x6.I would think the older hunters would have extra help to get an animal out and also help with judging and counting points.The same should go for all hunters who draw these tags the extra eyes could help determine points per side.I know when I was 18 years and younger it would be tough to not get excited and forget to look over the bull very close and make sure it only has 5 points or less on one side.On this hunt the more people judging the better.I have seen hunters out in the field with open sights and no optics this could be the downfall to this hunt.I think this hunt can work with the use of good optics,scope on the rifle and a good spotting scope.The bowhunt will be tough judging bulls that come in quick to calls and you only have that split second to count points.It can be done and I am not picking on archers what so ever it will be tough is all I am saying if you dont know for sure dont shoot that goes for rifle and archery hunters.
 
jims,

I would agree with you that the Bow is not the most effective as far as killing. That is a no brainer. As far as Bowhunting Elk in the rut, it is rather easy to count points at close range. Having Bowhunted my whole life I have never been unable to count points etc. There are Plenty of times I could not shoot due to quick events unfolding, but I always knew what I was attempting to shoot.

As far as Bowhunters being more likely to wound and lose an animal I could not disagree with you more. That is a very ignorant statement. I have seen so many rifle hunters shoot at animals and not follow up there shot because the animal did not drop or flinch. Did they miss or wound an animal??? I have found a lot of dead elk following the rifle general season hunt here in Utah while out Muzzleloader hunting with my buddies. I doubt these elk were poached, I believe they were errant shots that either were or were not followed up on. There are wound/loss issues with all hunting and that cannot be disputed or argued. To say one weapon type is worse than another is not a very fair statement.

I do agree that we might get people who have never hunted with a bow applying. But, that is already happening on the LE archery hunts now. I know several who have ended up killing big bulls as a result. It really comes down to the type of hunter they are, not the weapon in their hand. A good elk hunter will practice and be be efficient enough to kill a bull. There will no doubt be those who will not prepare, and they will not kill a bull more than likely.

As far as this hunt is concerned, they really need to make participants use their points and have a waiting period. I am sure that they will change that next year. (I hope). Have a great day.

Chad
 
Chad,
You caught me on this one and I'm sorry I picked on bowhunters! I have to agree with you that it all depends upon who is behind the weapon...range of shot, shot placement, wind, etc can be tricky whether it is archery or rifle. There are quite a few variables that can go wrong while archery hunting....jumping a string, deflection of a shot, etc...but I guess this can happen with either weapon? Obviously a weapon (whether bow or rifle) in the hands of someone not familiar with it is asking for trouble!

I guess my main point was that bowhunting generally isn't used by biologist to manage herd numbers and/or quality. I do like the idea of having the managment hunt early in the season prior to when bulls start fighting and breaking tines!

I'm not sure what to think in regard to archery vs rifle hunters counting points on a rack? In thick, brush or dark timber situations I would think it would be tough to count pts while hunting with either weapon? A rushed shot with either weapon could mean trouble! Out in the open it likely isn't as much a factor..especially if there is time before shots and good optics.

Although the hunts are in totally different units it will be interesting to compare harvest success, age class statis, and other info between the archery and rifle management hunts. I wonder if they will ever post harvest data and whether racks are broken vs straight 5x?
 
No sweat man,

I am a bit defensive!! Anyhow, My belief is that this hunt is less of a "management" hunt and more of a get more bulls killed hunt. The DWR and Wildlife Board can't seem to successfully pass LE tag increases so this is the way to did it through the disguise of a "management" hunt. I do believe it will serve both purposes.

I personally saw 3 bulls on the Wasatch last year that would have been prime management bulls. One was a 4x6 with 50" main beams and no broken tines, One was a 350+ 6 point on 1 side and spike with a drop club on the other. Another was a smaller 5 point with a spike on the other side. My good friend saw 2 bulls on the Manti that were mature on 1 side and spike on the other. These genetics obviously exist and need to be eliminated. I think this is the only way they could satisfy the public in order to get the herds back in balance. We shall see how it turns out. The late hunt is definatly not the best time to have this hunt. Hopefully they will wise up and mandate the points be lost and waiting periods apply! Have a great day!

Chad
 
NOW JUST HOW DAMN MANY PEOPLE DO YOU THINK ARE GONNA BLOW POINTS ON A 5 X 1 ???

THIS I GOTTA SEE!!!

THERE YOU GO wiley!!!

THERES A BULL FOR YOU!!!

YUP,A 5 X 1 !!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING ONLY THE UDWR COULD DREAM UP SUCH A FIASCO!!!
 
OddNut,

Check your PM box.

Bessy,

I think the point is these are the bulls this hunt was "intended" to kill. I just don't beleive there are a lot of them out there. Maybe a handful per unit? You sure you don't want to burn your points on a 3x4?

Happy New Year all!
 

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