Val Geist Article (please read)

BLT

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Heres a question and Answer article writen in the BUGLE mag jan-feb issue by VAL GEIST a leading Authority in Management-Ethics and Values,about mule deer and elk.....I think you will find it interresting.
BUGLE MAG:You have said that the current trophy mania,goaded by the commercial outdoor media,is serious threat to the integrity and future of both democratic hunting and scientific management.Could you explain? VAL GEIST:Its a market gone wild and unrestrained by even a modicum of personal,social or biological ethics,nor by the true respect for the hunted animals.One problem is that the trophy craze were experiencing today generates a socially and biologically harmful spin-off by creating a lucrative market for trophy heads.And driving this market are those who,by fair means or foul-BY ANY MEANS-will acquire exceptional trophies,about which they can falsely brag.Its like a raven wearing peacock feathers.The craze, which naturally is most evident among wealthy hunters who can afford to travel and buy,totally destroys the original notion of a trophy,which stood as a tangible,artful reminder of all thats involved in a true and honorable hunt,rather than something to be entered in a competitions for bragging rights.I understand traditional trophy hunting and respect the individual who goes afield with the conviction to fullfill a challenge that to him or her has become a holygrail,the hunter who works hard repeatedly passes up oppertunitites to kill lesser animals,where extreme discipline and tenacity are exercised.This variety of trophy hunting, which involves real hunting,I have no problem with whatsoever.What I do have a problems with is the current craze for "TROPHYS AT ANY COST" Involving everything from unethical technology to fortunes being spent and ,at worst,the artificial generation of store bought trophies on game farms...........Just some food for thought,by some one who can see and understand the big picture in front of all of us,The rest of the article is worth reading,you can find it in the jan-feb issue of BUGLE MAG
 
Good to see people agreeing with Dr. Geist's assertations that the use of "unethical technology" is something that greatly jeopardizes our hunting future. Sounds like he has a belief system in line with 30 inch bucks.....He has just backed up what we have all been fighting about for the last month. Increased technology, special governer/sportsman tags, a guiding and outfitting industry out of control, etc are all causing great harm. What a joke that governer tag thing is......pretty obvious what is going on with that. That guy probably hasn't gotten a 100 yds from the truck the whole time he has been hunting.....and don't tell me he is this big dedicated hunter........the picture tells me all I need to know about his physical capabilities. These tags are all about the guides and selling video's........pretty pathetic.

muleguy
 
Dr. Valerius Geist has some outstanding books on mule deer. I live in Texas where this issue is a huge problem. A lot of formerly reputable biologists, among them Dr. James Kroll, are not contributing to this problem among whitetails. Are people really trying to grow mule deer out west now? I know the technique has been used on elk and has really bitten people with CWD.
 
great article. I would really hate to see cloning and other forms of breeding/control with genetics go on out with muley's like it has in the whitetail ranches........... Allen Taylor......
 
I agree with most said here, what I disgree with is blanket statements that because you have money and can afford the high dollar gov. tags, that you are automatically a lazy slob hunter! that is the same ole class envy thing thrown out by lazy people that can't compete.
I'll never be a rich guy, but I blame myself that not the rich for that.
I have gone on here more than once defending some of the rich guys only because I know a couple of them and the ones I know are ball bustin' hard core trophy hunters.
I know they are tougher and more determined than most all hunters I have ever met,they have climbed more mountains at higher elevations than this workin stiff will ever dream about.
Once again, watch those blanket statements!
 
HunterHarry,
I don't think Geist is throwing out a blanket statement. He is just saying the obvious, the greed for a trophy at any cost is mainly a rich man's sport. You don't see Regular Workin' Stiffs selling the farm so they can buy an Auction Tag or hunt a High Fenced operation where the animals wear ear tags. If a regular workin' stiff wants a trophy buck or bull he has to do it the hard way, he has to work for it. There are many a rich guy out there that will do it the old fashioned way too. And that is great. But, there is a trend that is happening in our wildlife managing systems that is not good and Geist is speaking up about it. This is not class envy. Just because someone is rich and I am not doesn't play into the debate that we are selling out our wildlife and our hunting herritage. Do we want to have a European system of management where the rich are the only ones that can hunt?
 
I agree!
I am going to the big shows in Reno and will return as usual,totally disgusted with the prices of hunting!
It IS spinning out of control pricewise.
I wish my wages could keep up.
 
Ain't that the truth. I've been seeing my wages going down not up. LOL! Cost of living is going up but not the wages. Just makes that ol' gap between the rich and not so rich get wider and wider. I can tell ya I'm thankful of where I live. Doesn't cost me much at all to enjoy what I have in my back yard. The moose and 2 deer I got this year are really coming in handy this winter.
 
It's kind of funny how everyone that have opposed me on my other post are now agreeing with what I've been trying to say all along. Just because some so called "expert" or Dr. made the statement. I also agree with Geist 100%. Unethical technology is jeopardizing our hunting future. Hummmmm I wonder if chute planes are included in that? I think so!
 
30 INCH,
Why would we listen to some noname 1 post guy? You have no credibility. We all disagreed with the whole premise of how you started that post. The premise that chute planes are the "real demise of trophy mule deer". When barely anyone agreed with you on that, you then jumped on the bandwagon of slamming everything and everyone in Utah. And you still have no credibility.
We however agree with Dr. Geist because he has proven himself as a wildlife expert. He is not a "so-called expert". He is the real thing. That's the difference.
 
Great Article. I was considering putting a post about it on here too. Geist has his chit together.
 
BCBOY,
And that is all you are is just a boy!!! LOL!!! What's this we stuff. I think you're mostly alone on your attack. All you want to do is start a fight you thrive on it! There have been other comments on here referring to your stirring of the chit!!! It's funny after 1662 posts you still have no credibility! Keep contradicting yourself by saying you agree now and keep buying the videos and magazines that are made by the unethical culprits that Geist is talking about. Pick a side you idiot!! Don't ever put words in my mouth again because I never slammed everything and everyone in Utah go back read and comprehend the whole post again you MORON!!!! Quit coming at me I'm getting really tired of your crap! Your asking for your !%$# kicked. And I'm not the only one that will be coming up to BC to do it!!!! LMAO!!! By the way I agree with Geist too!!!
 
Hook, Line And Sinker!!! You're too easy man!
What are you doing here man? You are supporting those that you are so dead against by even coming to this site. Who do you think sponsers this site? Trophy Hunter Magazine, Muley Crazy Magazine, Guides/Outfitters and various producers of Hunting Videos and hunting technology. You are a hypocrite just by logging on to any hunting site. You are a hypocrite by buying any kind of hunting equipment. You better be making you hunting tools yourself because if not, you are supporting the "decline".
If you actually read Geist, you would find he is going after bigger fish than those who use chute planes. Mainly those growing big bucks and bulls on a farm, pumping them full of steriods and other chemicals, cloning and the such. As a so-called hunter flips through a catalog and picks the one that he is going to shoot while his VISA number is OKed.
You are the one stiring the $hit here. You come in, drop a bomb, call anyone who disagrees with you MORONS and then disappear. Now you are talking TUFF behind that computer screen of yours. You're hilarious man!
 
I read Mule Deer country many years ago. Your right BC Boy Geist predicted in that book the very thing that is taking place . The spread of cwd and other plagues due to turning wildlife into farm animals. If you will read the whole Bugle Magazine article written in 2003 you will find that he is again predicting doom for Wildlife by way of the latest success at all cost trophy craze. He talks about using tecnology either legal or illegal as a problem . He talks about turning public wildlife into a business venture. He warns of the danger of putting the publics wildlife into private control. Cwmu,s, Goveners tags ,conservation tags anything that turns management into about dollars instead of biology. He grew up in Europe with the Kings deer. He's got a good track record with his predictions I would say. Im almost certain Geist would find scouting with a cute plane just wrong no matter were you choose to list them in the order of problems. BC boy is it really that entertaining to frustrate people . You keep poking and anybody will get pissed.The bottom line is 30 inchsbucks views were right in line with one of the most respected wildlife experts of our time. I Think .
 
Fin little,
If you read my posts on the whole "decline" post, even through my BS humor, you'll see that I offered many good viable solutions to help stop the decline of mule deer. But, 30 inch had a personal vendeta against a few "Big Name" mule deer hunters and when confronted he skirted the issues time and time again. I no where said that scouting from a chute plane was right or wrong. I personally feel that if they are scouting 24-48 hours prior to the hunt, it doesn't mean squat. It is no different than using my spotter and binos. I've had many a big buck tied up in the spotter before the opener to have them completely disappear off the face of the earth the morning of the hunt not be seen again until the next summer.
If you read my posts you'll see that what I had been saying all along is that you can't manage wildlife based on $$. Releasing too many tags because you are driven by the almighty dollar is way worse than a couple rich guys flying the Pauns 2 days before the opener.
Yea, I am full of BS humor. I admit that. So are tons of others on this site. That is one of the things that makes it so fun here. Have you ever seen 30 inch post on anything else on this site? No! He has never offered congrats to any hunter posting a pic of their deer. Not even to the Jr. Hunters. To borrow a term from the RT site, he is a troll. His main goal is the stir up the pot and then sit back and enjoy.
 
No he's not a troll. He's just a guy that is frustrated over a problem thats in his opinion is important. It may not be important to you and alot of others but he thinks it is. For the record I agree. Not sure, but I think I know who he is. If I'm right he is a hardcore muledeer hunter and an accomplished tracker. He didnt get on here doing alot of bragging. He wanted to dicuss an issue. Guess he wasnt entertaining enough to be "credible".30r dont bring up issues until you hit at least a hundred posts. new rule I guess?
 
BCBOY,
I'll say it again because you can't seem to stop personally attacking me!!!! Canada is thick so it is a totally different game up there!!! Our desert country is full of alot of wide open spaces!! What does that mean? Duh! Less hiding space!! Sorry 12 chute planes on 1 unit is devastating on mule deer in wide open spaces! Along with many other things that have been mentioned. You're the only one here with a personal vendetta and it cracks you up and gives you joy to piss people off on this chat line, and I'm not the only one you've done that to!!! Obviously, your the menace or troll as you say! By the way you need to read some of the other posts because I have posted and gave advice on where to hunt along with other comments. I have about 50 posts compared to your 1600+ posts and according to you that seems to make you high and mighty. I'll bet 600+ of your posts are knocking others down and you are really getting your thrills out of it! You must really want your @#$ kicked! Why do you just keep it up? Stop coming at me!!!! You must really be getting your kicks out of pissing others off. Again, pick a side and stop pissing others off!! I stated above that I 100% agree with Geist! It must hurt you to think that he is saying some of the same things I've been saying all along. He is the guru so maybe you ought to listen. I'm done wasting my time responding to your personal attacks and games!!!!
Fin little, thanks for backing me up. You've made some great comments in the other posts and I appreciate them.
 
Fin Little,
I look at it when a person comes on here in one post and says the decline of the trophy mule deer in the West today is a result of one thing, chute planes, I call BS. Read that huge thread and you can see all the people who say what all the issues are. Half way through, 30 inch saw he was getting nowhere with the chute plane issue so he switches midstream and starts bashing the SFW and other organizations. To me it just looks like sour grapes and by far accomplished nothing. Just stirred the pot and brought out the best of the whinners on this site. LOL!
Never once have I seen 30 inch post anything positive on any other post on this board. I am sorry but, yes, you do need to spend some time here to gain credibility. You do need to give a guy, especially Jr. Hunters, a pat on the back and congrats them when they post pics of their deer. Hell, basically, you just have to get to know people here. I even invited 30 something to do that, but, no, he just wants to stir the pot. Even on this thread, he jumps on a calls Dr Geist, a "so called" expert. Why would I listen to mister 1 post? Give me a break. IMHO I look at all he's done and I still see a troll.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-04 AT 09:58PM (MST)[p]I can see both sides to this arguement but the decline of mule deer cannot be attributed to just one thing. That was my problem with the original "decline of the mule deer" thread. I am not going to repost every reason why trophy bucks are getting harder and harder to find but the FACT of the matter is that its not just chute planes and its not just governers tags. The reasons are endless and I find it discouraging to see that some hunters that love this sport as much as we all do sometimes lose focus of the big picture to focus on one particular thing. Is it discouraging to know that I will never be able to afford one of those tags? Sure it is but not because I want to buy a governers tag, even if I had the money I would not spend it for one. Whats more discouraging to me is the lack of proper management for trophy quality deer, that is not one guides fault or one wealthy hunters fault, if the opportunity is there how can you fault those guys. That is like blaming referees for the instant replay in the NFL. If you dont like it you cant blame the referees, you have to look at the people that make the rules. If you want answers you need to look past these problems.
I have a ton of respect for Dr. Geist but what we see here is him talking about one of the problems, I would imagine that if you were to hear him lecture about the decline of the mule deer what you see here would be just a small part of his presentation. He is absolutely correct in the statements he makes but I did not see his arguement specific to mule deer but made these comments on the heels of talking about game farms and how they relate to Elk. This article was in BUGLE and this publications primary, if not sole, content is for Elk. Of course we can take that principle and apply it to Mule Deer but if we do that we again need to focus on the whole pie and not just one small slice. I think that next time the whole article should be posted and not just the cherry picked parts that may validate a particular arguement.

Drummond
 
Geist hit the nail on the head. It seems that the past 5-8 years, every other truck I see has some sticker in the window of a huge mule deer or elk. I'd wager that some -not all- pictures posted on this very site are soley for the stroking of ones ego. It is the "In" thing to portray ones self as a "Trohpy" hunter. To back-up this "Way-of-Life" many must bend the rules which in-turn damages the resource.

Chasing bucks on the winter range in hopes that it may drop an antler. Poaching. Paying big $$$ to kill the best of the herd when no other hunting pressure has the animal wised-up. Scouting from chute planes to locate the best-of-the-best. Hunting with a new, more efficient muzzleloader during the better dates that were intially set because muzzleloaders used to be so inefficient.

All these plus many more seem to be, to me anyway, what Geist refers to. This is one of his greatest topics. (Although in some part the conservation of some habitats are supported soley by hunting dollars. Many ranches in Utah would be developed if not for the money generated for the private landowner through hunting.)

30inch- Just Ignore BCBoy, you gotta remember there isn't much for him to do up there this time of year except sit behind a computer. Remember the old advice - "Cast not your pearls before swine...."
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-04 AT 10:32PM (MST)[p]Packout,

" I'd wager that some -not all- pictures posted on this very site are soley for the stroking of ones ego. It is the "In" thing to portray ones self as a "Trohpy" hunter."

Were you able to figure that out after spending enough time to actually post 20 or so times?

I think that you will find that most of the people that post here have a genuine love for mule deer and I for one get as much enjoyment looking at others photos as I do sharing my experiences with other MM members. If we were here to just get an ego trip I doubt you would hear from us year round. I think I can speak for the majority when I say we have an honest to God passion for these deer and look forward to talking with people that share the same passion.

Drummond

Drummond
 
You are right when you say its not one guides fault or one wealthy hunters fault. Its true you have to look at the people that make the rules. I dont blame a wealthy hunter for buying the tag. I blame the system that allows it to go on,However good the intentions.I said in another post if its about one hunter or one deer who would care. The problem is, and I think Geist was referring to it, is when money and incomes become part of the equation sound biology gets thrown out the window.When I pick up the local real estate adds and see ranches advertised with landowner deer tags that add value to the property were's the management.When the public tags have been cut by half in an attempt to bring the mature bucks back to the Paunsaugunt Yet the conservation orgs continue to auction thier full quota were's the management.When only the public takes the cuts were's the sound biology. When there's only a handfull of mature bucks left on the unit and they are relentlessly persued by guides in aircraft, who is responsible.I know I'm narrow minded and I should look at the whole picture, but those are the problems plageing my little world. Who is responsible?
 
HH

DON'T GET PI$$ED AT MY BACK WINDOW UNTIL YOU'VE SEEN IT!!!

I HAVE BEEN FLOWN THE BIRD A FEW TIMES BY ANTI'S,THE PEOPLE WITH THE SAME AMOUNT OF GUTS AS 'bobcatmess',BUT NOT ONE TIME COULD I GET THEIR GUTLESS LOWLIFE A$$ STOPPED FOR A LITTLE CHAT!!!

I CHASED ONE RIGHT TO THE POLICE STATION,I'D NEVER SEEN A CHICKEN RUN THAT FAST!!!

SOME MORE LOWLIFES HIDING EVERY CHANCE THEY GET!!!

THERE ARE ALOT OF REASONS FOR THE PROBLEM,ONE OF THEM I FORGOT TO MENTION ON 'THE DECLINE OF TROPHY MULE DEER',YOU HAVE ALOT OF WANNA BE'S LIKE THE 'MESS' THAT ARE TOO GUTLESS TO GET INVOLVED AND TRY AND HELP IN A POSSITIVE WAY,I GUESS THEY ARE TOO BUSY HIDING BEHIND THEIR FAKE PHONY WANNA BE LIVES!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT HIDING OR DISABLING ICONS TO HIDE MY IDENTITY!!!
 
I wonder if Geist has ever hired an outfitter in his pursuit for a trophy (in his eyes) big game animal?? I'd bet a nickel he has, and probably used some high tech gadget to help in his pursuit.
 
Packout-

I'll bet you hunt everything w/ a spear or long bow, and a 30/40 Krag, too right???
 
Amazing responses for the expression of one's opinion (mine). I just gave examples of what I thought Geist was talking about. Nice to see how you guys can turn a real post to a bash fest.

What do you experts with more than 21 posts think Geist was talking about?

Huntsonora- I have visited this site for 4 or 5 years. My number of posts has nothing to do with my opinion. I did say some -NOT ALL- are for stroking thier ego. I'd wager that SOME of the clients you guide are only in it to find a bragger buck to show off. Some, Not All.

Osok- You have killed some nice bucks with your ML and I think it is great, but don't you think that the technology Geist refers to may include the Bettering of MLs. ML seasons were put in place many years ago to give a better advantage to the hunter using inferior weapons, before the in-line rage and 200 yard guns. By the way I shoot a sako rifle, 50 cal sidelock, and PSE Compound set at 62#. Doesn't make me a good or bad person. I was just refering to one cut of the 1,000 cuts.

Now I know why I have only posted 21 times in 4 or 5 years.
 
I didn't come back as a bash. As you said. Simply stating my own opinion. If thats the case. Which I see where you are coming from. Then we're all a bunch of hypocrites, right??? If you're gonna knock a guy fore shooting an inline. Then you're gonna have to ask the guy who shoots a PSE, a 300wsm, or anything else that would be considered "More technological", as such... Where does it end?

Honestly. Fore me. People are the ones ruining it fore themselves, not the technology. A movie line I heard some time ago, says it pretty well. "Your species is like a cancer of the earth". Sad? Yes... But true!!!

Unless, we all go back to our loin cloths, spear chuckin and draggin our wives around by the scalp. I don't see where anybody now days, can have this opinion w/o being a flat our hypocrite...

Myself. I don't have a problem, w/ technology as long as it's used w/i the confines of the law.

Probably not even worth my 2cents. Oh well...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-04 AT 10:58AM (MST)[p]I think that we all are responsible for the decline of trophy mule deer. We all use technolgy. Be it a modern inline or a modern rifle or a modern bow. The point is anything that makes it easier to kill a big buck is part of the problem so where do we cut it off at? Shall we go back to the primitive weapons? They were unfair to. I think a boneknife and just our hands levels the playing field.
When we hunt and kill a deer we have just dropped the number of trophy deer out there. Sitting on this site typing away adds to the decline. Walking into a Sportsman Warehouse adds to the decline. Heck, for many of us living in the West, our own houses have added to the decline.
This is my opinion.
 
Number 59! Come on give me a break! the number of posts has nothing to do with credibility or knowledge! Everyone has the right to express their opinion!
 
It wouldn't matter if you had 10,000 posts. It's obvious that you have a personal vendetta w/ many whom have anything to do w/ this site, let alone this sport. From what I've read of your banter. By far, there is no bigger hypocite on this place, then that of yourself...

Please don't threatin to come to Colorado to whoop my dairy-air!!! I might just take you up on the invitation...

You know where I can be reached...
 
Speak your opinion? Yea, we've heard it. The dead horse has spoken! LOL! Let's just shake hands, agree to disagree and be done with it.
 
30 inch,BCBOY has been a pain in the ass since he was born, long before his thousand plus posts.It will continue untill he is 6feet under.He comes by it natural.I actually know the guy and he's no different in person!LOL You come smack dab into the "good ole boys club" which functions with no rhyme or reason.The "mass" exists to stroke the "boy's" and God forbid you express any oppinion. It is like a microcosm of life. High school comes to mind, each regulated to there own role, slammed if they step out of line. Some are picked on alot more than others.First immpressions are everything, but even that won't guarantee this "Respect".
Even Val Geist learned opinion has detracters! and we all are trying to decide if he is for or against us. He just may be a threat, but perhaps the biggest threat is ourselves.
This may be the old bourgeois proletariat struggle that has us demean Geist, for it is the rich who are a threat and the almost rich who wish to join them. The middle class existing because the rich are spending. The working class those who made them rich.
Is it not symbolic that a poor man may be able to juxtapose himself by having a trophy that only the rich could afford. Yet it seems that this is becoming harder for the poor man because of the advantages of the rich. I sure the hell can't afford a chute plane.
The real threat is the middle class who are comfortable enough with these advantages to defend them.Some are getting rich by using them.The have worked hard to have them, for they are nearly rich.Maybe this is the final destination of capitalism?
Technology in moderation with managers leveling the field to the benifit of the animals rather than the budget would go a long way to remedying the situation. But who is gonna pay for it all and what will you do with your quad? kinda expensive lawn ornament.
 
I can't believe the word "bourgeois" was used on monstermuleys. To what depths will we delve? I'd like to go kill a Marco Polo ram lets say in the 65" plus class and juxtapose myself into the land of trust funders and the idle rich.

Here's another point to ponder. How can anyone who used "bourgeois" in correct context, mispell "benefit"?

Just kidding Horseshoe!!!!!!!
 
BS,
LMAO! I've been trying to think up a comeback to this poor excuse of a brother and I think you nailed him way better than I could. LOL! I think he is just trying to make up for the fact that all his school teachers said that he would amount to nothing. LMAO! Not bad for a farrier eh?
 
BCboy us old horseshoer's have tender feelings. The facts on trophy bucks is simple. With all the user groups on public land ie: muzzle loaders, archers, rifle, youth, handicap, gov. tags etc. there will never be "trophy bucks" in any numbers in the lower 48 on public land(I think that is a run-on sentence). But there can be good hunting for years to come with proper managment. To many people is the real problem with less space for the wildlife. No good answer for that (unless we rid ourselves of the evil non-hunters). They are taking up space, lol. Just my thoughts. Please feel free to critique my grammer.
 
You just let him know he got dissed by one of the best. It kind of a compliment, albeit a little underhanded. Don't fairy-ers have spehelchex on thare cumpewter?
 
BUCKSPY You have got to admit that was a hell of allot more interesting than the "Pamela Anderson or Thirty incher" thread. I am sure that's how you spell benefit here in Canada.I ain't even read the bloody article.Just call it better smelling bullshit.
 
What the hell is "Democratic Hunting". Is that where we all take a vote on what or how I get to hunt? Is that when the animals get to vote?
 
I wonder if Geist has ever hired an outfitter in his pursuit for a trophy (in his eyes) big game animal?? I'd bet a nickel he has, and probably used some high tech gadget to help in his pursuit.
Hmmmm. I bet he has not. Great article, the rest of thread is sh**. Buncha MM'ers bickering about , what?
 

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