Question for SFW & MDF

[30WCF]

I have a question for SFW and or MDF in regards to the late Nov. any weapon bull elk hunts which were eliminated on the Wasatch and Nebo units for 2007. I am not looking for replies to expound the virtues of or to bash any conservation group. I am simply asking a question which I have have not found an answer to.

Beginning in 2005 age objectives were lowered 1-2 years on most LE elk units, thus providing a few extra tags for these LE draws. In the spring of 2006 SFW and MDF lobbied and received a 3 year lock on conservation permits to be issued for the next 3 years. This 3 year conservation tag allotment was allocated based upon the new lowered LE elk age classes. This would have included the late Wasatch and Nebo LE elk hunts.

In the 2007 Big Game Proclamation the late Nov. LE elk hunts on the Wasatch and Nebo units were eliminated.

Are the conservation tags which were allocated for these late hunts prior to the hunt elimination, due to the 3 year conservation permit lock, still valid for hunting the late Wasatch and Nebo LE elk units? Or have these conservation permits been changed to the early any weapon, muzzleloader or archery hunts as have the eliminated late public tags?

When I state that the late LE bull elk tags for the Wasatch and Nebo units were eliminated, I mean the tags are not taken away from the total combined tag allotment for those units, rather that the hunt opportunity for the season has been eliminated. As I understand those late tags will be included back into one or more of the earlier hunts for that unit.

Thank you for any insight you may offer.

 

[UGAhunter]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-07 AT 10:50AM (MST)[p]The Hunting Expo website still lists those tags as available. I hope the Division will not issue the Late hut permits, but I am afraid it is a done deal, and no way they can get out of it. Pretty slick move on the part of Convention organizers to lock in these tags, then help raise the age objectives. Good job.

 

[Silentstalker]

Ya, they locked the permit numbers and then got the total permit numbers lowered for the public and they get all those permits for 3 years. Must be nice to control your own destiny! I can't believe no one shows up to the RAC's and complains about this. A few of us do and all they say are where are all the people who don't support this cause we do!

 

[UGAhunter]

I believe it is a 5-year lock!

 

[Packout]

The Conservation tags are supposedly good for the open rifle season, late or early. Since there is no Late hunt on those 2 units the Conservation tags are good only for the Early Season. This is what was explained to me by a DWR higher-up. Maybe this has changed.?.

There is a problem with the Convention tags. Those Late hunt tags which are given thru the Convention are specific to the Late hunt.

(Also the Convention Tags are on a 5 year contract, but tags are specified every year. The Convention Tags were supposed to be "up to 200 tags", but we see that right from the start they received the maximum number. The Conservation Tags are on a 3 year contract with the tags already assigned.)

 

[proutdoors]

When exactl did they "LOWER" the number of tags given to the public? last I checked the number of permits has gone up EVERY year for several years now.

A conservation tag for the wasatch last year was for an 'any weapon early OR late season tag', this year it will be an early season ONLY.

You guys crack me up with your conspiracy theories and fear-mongering. Find a real threat to your tags, like habitat loss, anti-hunters, fellow hunters making up crap, etc.

PRO

 

[UGAhunter]

Let me make this up: there are two LATE season Wasatch Elk permits being pimped at the convention. Just kidding, it's TRUE.

 

[Silentstalker]

Pro,

Regardless of the increase on tags this year, (which I agree with you, they will go up), these tags are tags that "would have" been in the draw for ALL of the public to have a crack at. The fact that 500+ permits (200 expo tags, 350 conservation tags) or more for the next 3-5 years are taken from the public drawing is starting to turn some heads. It is unbelievable that the public will stand for this. The fact is, the general public has no clue that these groups are taking so many tags every year. The general public has not nor in my oppinion will they ever benefit to the degree these groups benefit from them. It is way past time these groups cut these tags by at least half and sell those 1/2 for a lot more money. The intake would probably net close to the same. It would also help their image to mandate that 100% of the tag dollars go directly to the resource rather than 10% going to salaries, expenses etc. Other states do it this way and it works out just fine. They also fund their projects with A LOT less tags.

I have no beef with the program. I actually support several groups involved. However, at this time I like many on this site believe that the tag numbers are BEYOND rediculous.

Have a great day and good luck in the draws!

Chad

 

[proutdoors]

UGA, pay attention! The question was about CONSERVATION TAGS on the late season not CONVENTION TAGS. There is a difference and I think you knew that. Calling them pimped tags does NOT vaidate your pinhead stance, it just exposes your bias.

Silent Stalker, the 200 expo tags are DRAWN and open to EVERYONE, therefore they are NOT taken from the public draw. Anyone who wishes to put in for these tags CAN. I get to put in for some units that under the DWR application process I cannot, I put in for some great elk tags and deer tags, this would not be possible thru the DWR.
You say other states do not keep 10%, that I don't know for sure, what I do know is these other states are NOT putting $11,000,000.00 into wildlife habitat projects like Utah did last year. Utah will get MORE than that in 2007, this is GREAT for wildlife and thus GREAT for hunters. Utah took the biggest bighorn, goat, and elk in 2006, proof that we are doing something right. Look at the number of 400+ bulls taken in Utah compared to ANY other state, it's not even a fair comparison. Other states WILL follow Utah's lead on this or wish they had.

PRO

 

[Silentstalker]

Pro,

Not everyone can or will have a chance at the tags. That is my real beef with the whole thing. IF this were about maximizing dollars for wildlife we should have included all the public both in and out of staters.

As for our income to the state from these tags, you state 11,000,000 dollars for the state of utah. I am not a math major, but 10% of $11,000,000 is right around $1,100,000. That is a lot of money that is being absorbed into some groups that surely could and should go into the habitat these tags are designed to protect.

As for our elk herd. We kill 400 bulls in this state mostly because we kill so FEW elk. We allow elk to mature and have great genes. We would no doubt grow and kill these same bulls with 1/2 the tags. Supporters of these tags always want to show the big dollar amount and point to our elk, where has this money gone to benefit the general public or the deer herd. Hopefully these groups will see that this tag allocation is way to high.

As for the projects I hope they continue and support and respect all of those involved. What little time I get to put towards helping out definately gives me respect for those that volunteer their time for all of us.

Have a great day!

Chad

 

[proutdoors]

That is $11,000,000.00 that hit the ground, not raised. You ask where this money has gone to benefit the general public or the deer herd, there are too many examples to list them all, go to these Groups websites and look at the numerous projects that improve wildlife. As for making the convention tags available to even those not willing to come to SLC, the Governor agreed to these tags under the understanding that people would come to Utah and spend money HERE. How many people woould come to Utah if they didn't need to validate these tags? This brings money into Utah, that is a major reason why the Govnr just committed $20,000,000.00 for wildlife on top of the other monies.

PRO

 

[UGAhunter]

Pro,

How does using the verbiage "pimped" make me a pinhead? Pimped simply means "exploited", but I think you knew that.

Convention/conservation tags? Only a few letters - I screwed up. But, lowering age objectives one year and getting the permits committed, and then raising the objectives the next year accomplished the same things for these groups. The effect was the same on both types of permits. More tags for the exploiters (is that better) and less tags (NONE) in the draw.

I know this is personal for guides/outfitters because they make a living off the exploitation of these public permits. No other state does this with their tags, yet they still have habitat for their deer and elk. I get sick of this argument.

 

[schmalts]

Gee, anyone want to guess at how mant more tags were given to the nonresidents in this years draw??
So Don Peay, whe are these wealth tags going to benefit EVERYONE like you spout off all the time?

 

[MulePacker]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-07 AT 04:50PM (MST)[p]" Utah took the biggest bighorn, goat, and elk in 2006, proof that we are doing something right." So what I am hearing is if it is printed it must be true. A more accurate statement may be Utah took the biggest bighorn, goat, and elk in 2006, that I (prooutdoors) know about, proof that we are doing things I (prooutdoors) believe are right. You see many game managers do not believe that growing the biggest antlers is right. They beleive that healthy herd dynamics, maximum opportunity and the such are right. In fact I would beleive most states manage to this end not necessarily to the largest antler theory. So my beleif is that right is subjective and no more than opinion.
You see I beleive that not all hunters look to get their kills recognized and we here only of those wishing to publicize the fact they shot an animal. In fact I would bet there is a Utah state record or world record in a barn somewhere only a few know about, in fact I would double my wager that a tape has never been put to the antlers.
We do know this there is group in Utah that caters to the trophy hunter and if possible makes sure the world knows about it. Although talking with my brother who lives less than 100 miles from the Utah border, He knew nothing about the "Great and Wondrous Elk" that was killed in Utah, probably didn't care. I would define him as an avid diehard hunter. Maybe the world doesn't know or care.
Now to the issue at hand.
Can you define the trend of S. Cache elk permits in the past four years. Public Permits and Conservation Permits. The facts simply state public permits have decreased and conservation permits have doubled. So don't be too quick to say it has not happened the proof is in the Big Game Summaries and Permit Allocations as recorded by the UDWR.

Travis Sparks

 

[huntnfool]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-07 AT 07:16PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-07 AT 07:15?PM (MST)

Other States are not going to follow Utahs lead on giving so many conservation tags . The latest Hunting Illustrated did interviews with the Directors of wildlife in Idaho and Wyoming and they both said what happened in Utah will not happen in their states because the majority of the people are against it. Apparently they listen to the majority not the minority like Utah. They are very much against giving weathy people the advantage to loophole the system and have the advantage over other people.

 

[proutdoors]

Thats right, the people of Utah are under oppression and tyranny. IF the majority of Utah hunters agree with you, where the hell are they when its time for action? Oh yea, I forgot, they are sitting on their rumps watching TV and then wonder why the state didnt ask for their opinion. What an attack on your rights.

PRO

 

[kevin3006]

New to the forum and haven't posted, but I sit and read all of the comments. I do not know all of the issues and numbers being thrown around but would just like to state that I will not be attending the Expo but would have purchased the full package if the rules permitted non attendance. Some non-residents, myself included cannot afford to take off work, fly to SLC to validate and then fly back. I don't b**ch about numbers of tags for NR's, just wait like the rest for my name to be called like I have for the last seven years. I'll save my trip to SLC and vacation days for hunting. Kevin

 

[bobcatbess]

EASY Schmalts!!!

IF IT WASN'T FOR PEAYDAY YOU MIGHT NOT BE HUNTING QUALITY BULLS IN UTARD WHEN YOU DRAW!!!

THE ONLY bobcat!!!

 

[dkpeay]

RE: EASY Schmalts!!!

To answer the original question, it was NO GRAND conspiracy to lock in conservation tags, and late season tags, and then increase the age class to keep quality.

I don't think any one has honestly thought about the late season tags on the wasatch and nebo. My guess is that for 2007, the expo tags will stay for late season.

next year, the DWR will most likely pull these late tags, and bump an eqaul number into the early season.

No planned conspiracy, it just happened.

Now, regarding Wyoming and Idaho.

Wyoming and Utah are a completely different world. Big Wonderful WY, has 400,000 people, probably only have 450,000 people in ten years. Utah has close to 3 million, headed fast for 5 million people. Wyoming has large 100,000 to 200,000 acre ranches, utah has small ones.

Utah has treated 250,000 acres of deer winter range, wyoming has treated zero - they need to get going as western wyoming deer herds are declining and winter ranges need restoration in a big way. Wyoming has $2 billion surplus from Oil and gas, Utah has 30 kids per class, and education demands billions for decreasing class size. who gets money, kids or hunters who want to kill more deer ?

Terry Cleveland is a great director, he has a totally different state, with totally different challanges and resources to deal with them.

The founders of the constitution were brillant to give states rights, to deal indivdually as states. Each state should be different, but each state if facing more challanges.

That is perhaps the biggest difference between SFW and and other "national" groups. SFW sportsmen run thier own state, and make their own decsions, and keep their own funds. National groups suceed all power and control to the kings at corporate headquarters.

AS far as Idaho goes in land development and human population growth, idaho is 15 years behind Utah. If the sportsmen of Idaho were smart, they would be coming up with a way to invest tens of millions to secure land while it is still "affordable". Idaho deer and elk herds are in trouble, in my opinion, there Director shows no leadership in trying to get in front of his issues.

Utah has made HUGE progress, i wish sportsmen had got their act together 20 years sooner, and it would be interesting to see where the state of wildlife and hunting might be.

don

 

[dkpeay]

Kevin,

i hope you draw your dream tag, we are working hard to make more of them and keep the world class quality.

As a kid growing up on my grandpas little farm, the grandkids who worked to take care of the farm, got to hunt the roosters. The cousins who were to busy playing, showed up to hunt, and they got sent home. I quit playing sports, so there was time to take care of the farm and hunt the roosters. so, i just ask that you think about your comment, i will save my time and come out to hunt.

I realize that everyone has different circumstances with vacation time, travel money, etc.

Hopefully, those who don't come, will appreciate the efforts of those who do.

My one point is that someone has to take care of the "farm". The hunters who are sacrificing to come to the expo are doing just that, making the effort to make sure there are some things to hunt, so you can draw as well.

5% of the permits are for those who come to "work the farm", 95% are for everyone else.

Just a way to think about things. The west is changing like never before in history, and to keep what we all love - wild places and wild things - is going to take some new measures.


Don

 

[huntnfool]

Wow once again pro you out did yourself with your 12 year old response. I hope you didn't loss any sleep thinking of that one....

 

[ktc]

RE: EASY Schmalts!!!

I have been a very good boy. So good, that by earmarking that late tag for me, it could only be described as poetic justice.;-)

I promise to represent the LAST late tag Wasatch holder well.

Probably just got removed from the draw for that one.;-)

Kind of fun to have a snowballs chance at something at the show? Kind of a mid-winter thing I guess?

 

[MulePacker]

RE: EASY Schmalts!!!

I appreciate the analogy of the "farm". I believe it to be true more than anyone realizes. If I am not mistaken many of Utah's large farms have been sold to the wealthy in order to profit the most. I would ask Don Peay where is you grandpa's farm? Is there irony in its position or are you still hunting pheasants on it. It was enjoyable this past fall to watch as the next generation of my family shot there first deer on the same land as me, my father, my grandfather. In Utah WE are selling the farm (if you will) wildlife to the highest bidder. In hopes of saving a few acres. Just maybe we can save those few acres without selling the farm to the highest bidder. In fact some of the national organizations that you find fault with seem to be doing just that without robbing tags/opportunity from the public system.

By the way, I read in Sportsmans Voice where SFH donated $165,000 to Hardware ranch for a fencing project. I have sepnt some time researching and can not find official record of the donation. I will be calling DWR today to see there records. Maybe you can help me out and steer me in the right direction.

Travis Sparks

 

[kevin3006]

While I appreciate the analogy, I would just like to inform you that I am "taking care of the farm" here in my home state while you are "taking care of the farm" there. I very much appreciate the fact that one day, with a little luck and the good lord willing, I can come to the great state of Utah and hunt for the "bull of my dreams". With one week of vacation a year and two jobs, time to me is more important than the money part. I cannot justify to my family using my vacation to support all of the groups that I belong to and attend their conventions. They are understanding to a fault when I do draw a great tag to chase my dreams and enjoy what I love doing. Hope the Expo goes well and "the wildlife" are the winners. To borrow a FNAWS-like analogy, hopefully your are working "to put elk on the mountain". With sincere regards.

Kevin

 

[schmalts]

RE: EASY Schmalts!!!

So Don, i guess i have to ask anyway since you never anser any of my questions anyway. If next year the F&G charges the 65$ or whatever the amount is for apps, are you going to ask for less wealth tags and have them go into the regular drawing? I mean, there will be so much more revenue that it would make good sound practice and gain trust from us to see that you actually will help the regular odds now that the F&G are making money the way i suggested they should. Problem is, if the public is putting more money into the kitty with the higher apps, then they should get back some of the tags now shouldnt they? Heck i am not asking for just Nonres, i am asking for res alike! Its only fair that if the average Joes like BOBCAT and ME are closing the gap from money raised there should be an adjustment in tag numbers from the dark side to the regular draw i hope?

 

[MulePacker]

RE: EASY Schmalts!!!

FYI.
AS a young lad I was taught to "believe ten percent of what you read and hear and fifty percent of what you see". From this beginning and 20 years in the newspaper business I guess I am a little cynical. However experience has taught me if it sounds too good to be true it probably is.
The $165,000 ($170,000) donation/allotment to Hardware Ranch for fencing breaks out this way.
$82,500 from state funds
$82,500 from NRCS Equip Funds
$5,000 DWR Conservation Permit funds for Elk
So I again will ask what is SFW referring to in the Sportsaman Voice when they list a $165,000 donation to Hardware for fencing.

Travis Sparks

 

[Colville]

RE: EASY Schmalts!!!

If it were about the max money, they'd allow every utah hunter to apply for those raffle permits on line or by mail. They'd double the sales. Double the money. If they wanted to continue to make any non utah res have to show up, they could do that too. Now everyone who lives in utah has no hurdle to applying for their own public resource and you still sell hotel rooms and rental cars to guys from out of state.

That's an obvious solution. Which leads one to an obvious conclusion, they don't want more money if it means lower draw odds from everyone having a good chance at it. There obviously is some lip service to collecting the most money for habitat.

 

[ironhead]

RE: EASY Schmalts!!!

LAST EDITED ON Jan-30-07 AT 06:47PM (MST)[p]If it was about money for the wildlife they would allow NR's to put in from out of state or country, that would obviously raise more money . I wonder if your cousins lived 2000 miles away from the farm ?