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Dirtysteve
Guest
My buddy was saying the DWR is going to split the regions up into smaller units next year. I know they talked about this 2 years ago but nothing came about it. Anybody heard anything?
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Jake_Sorensen
Guest
I hope they don't!!!! I like when I could pretty much hunt anywere but its alot harder to hunt deer with my whole family cause some of us will always ending up having to drive several hours to hunt. Where as it used to be we would meet for the weekends to hunt and during the week we could just drive over the mountain and hunt every weekday morning and evening to hunt but we can't do that now.
Jake
Jake
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hedges
Guest
They didn't do it. Too many cry babies at the RAC meetings about not being able to hunt every mtn. in the region. I for one don't know how the biologist have a chance to really manage each herd effect. The hardest part about hunting Utah is staying ahead of the crowds because once everybody starts hearing about good hunting some place it gets slammed.
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RuttCrazed
Guest
I agree with you Hedges. They should split it up and require everyone in every unit to report there success via the internet so they can TRY and get some reliable accurate information. Putting a cap on each region does nothing for the herds in all 15000 people are hunting the same mountain.
Rut
Rut
PleaseDear
Long Time Member
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I say split it up into the 25 units for every weapon of choice. Sure it will change my hunt options but I think in the long run it will increase buck/doe ratio and really help with crowd control on the mountain.
Make these 'Extended Archery Units' part of the draw and not an after thought hunt. So they would be seperate/1 of the 25 units to draw from with the Mandatory Orientation for all weapons and seasons, bow mzzldr rifle.
Make these 'Extended Archery Units' part of the draw and not an after thought hunt. So they would be seperate/1 of the 25 units to draw from with the Mandatory Orientation for all weapons and seasons, bow mzzldr rifle.
Bambistew
Very Active Member
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Utah seems to have the worst game management in the west according to everyone on here! Maybe they should look at the states around them that have divided thier game management units up to micromanage them. I will suck for those whiners that can't take off from work and hunt every morning and evening, but wouldn't it be better for the deer? Everyone seems to want to shoot a monster but arn't willing to do anything about it.
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hedges
Guest
Just curious muzz why do you think spliting up the regions is a dumb idea?
Does this sound about right to you guys. 90% of a season hunt is on one mtn. The other 10% is road riding scouting/hunting for new spots.
Does this sound about right to you guys. 90% of a season hunt is on one mtn. The other 10% is road riding scouting/hunting for new spots.
woodruffhunter
Long Time Member
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Hedge:
Excuse my ignorance; but if the Utah DWR can't control or manage the units they have now, how do you expect they will manage 25?
Jason
Excuse my ignorance; but if the Utah DWR can't control or manage the units they have now, how do you expect they will manage 25?
Jason
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Silentstalker_work
Guest
The DWR wants to simplify the proclamation so splitting the whole state into 25 units would only mess up their plan to "simplify". If I could pick we would go to 25 units with 10 or so units being 3 point or better. I don't care what anybody says, the units that were 3 point or better in the past had good numbers of big bucks and lots of deer. The minute the 3 point or better thing was lifted they disappeared. Have a great day!
Chad
Chad
oakbrush
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-30-04 AT 08:08PM (MST)[p] The DWR is trying to manage buck to doe ratios according to the needs of each of the 25 units now. How can you manage these needs if you have no clue how many hunters going to hunt each unit. It just makes sense to split the state into smaller units. But sometimes it's hard to admit that when it effects something that we all have a passion for or restricts us in some way. I would love to be able to hunt anywhere in the state, but those days are gone and we need to sacrifice a little so there will be something there for us in the future.
Thanks,
Jason.
Thanks,
Jason.
LAST EDITED ON Jan-30-04 AT 09:44PM (MST)[p]Utah biologists already have the state split into 38 units. They are able to micro manage the smaller units within general unit boundaries. Look at the Nebo in the Central region. Buck numbers fell below the objective so they made it a five day hunt for 3 years. It worked and buck : doe ratios increased. I have hunted the Nebo my whole life and the 5 day season helped.
The SouthEastern region has been in trouble so they made the whole unit a 5 day hunt. It has worked in the past. When a unit is overwhelmed by hunters they have closed it in the past. That is how we have the Pauns, Henrys, Books, Vernon, Oak Creek, etc. Then the unit becomes a LTD area, with Substantially less tags. Utah can also reduce Permit numbers by region. I'd hope they reduce some regions while we get through the drought.
Look at Nevada. They have countless hunt units. They are able to micromanage their deer. Their deer herd has been falling off for the past 5-7 years, with last years permits numbers the lowest in ages. Having their state split into smaller units has not helped them. Same with Arizona and California. Micro units have helped Colorado, along with some good help from Mother Nature.
What is the goal for changing the state to small units? Bigger bucks? More Bucks? Less hunter Pressure? All these things come at a cost, those being Extreme cuts in tags and Extreme License fee Hikes. Then we could sit here and complain how we can never draw tags and how the DWR is ripping us off charging too much for a deer tag.
The SouthEastern region has been in trouble so they made the whole unit a 5 day hunt. It has worked in the past. When a unit is overwhelmed by hunters they have closed it in the past. That is how we have the Pauns, Henrys, Books, Vernon, Oak Creek, etc. Then the unit becomes a LTD area, with Substantially less tags. Utah can also reduce Permit numbers by region. I'd hope they reduce some regions while we get through the drought.
Look at Nevada. They have countless hunt units. They are able to micromanage their deer. Their deer herd has been falling off for the past 5-7 years, with last years permits numbers the lowest in ages. Having their state split into smaller units has not helped them. Same with Arizona and California. Micro units have helped Colorado, along with some good help from Mother Nature.
What is the goal for changing the state to small units? Bigger bucks? More Bucks? Less hunter Pressure? All these things come at a cost, those being Extreme cuts in tags and Extreme License fee Hikes. Then we could sit here and complain how we can never draw tags and how the DWR is ripping us off charging too much for a deer tag.
muzz
Long Time Member
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Hedges I think it is a dumb idea because they can't run the state as it is let alone with 25 units. I am all for helping out the deer herds in the state but I think there is different ways of doing things. I am not for sure what to do and don't want to seem ignorant but I think that either closing the hunts for a year or two would dramaticly help them out and then open them back up with limited numbe of tags available so they wouldn't get hammered right off the bat. Or lower the number of tags by half of what is out now. Less pressure less kill = more deer. I can see where 25 units would be easyer to see who is hunting where but I for one want to hunt different places and if I am driving to hunt one area and I see another I would like to try I don't want have to wait till the next year to hunt it. There is a different way to do it then 25 units is what I think. If they are going to split the state in 25 units let us hunt all three hunts again. There forcing us out of hunting and making it a bigger pain in the ass!! I would like to see them put forth the effort towards deer as they have for Elk. I think we would have a pretty good deer herd in a few years and I don't think the splitting up the state is the way to go.
woodruffhunter
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Oakbrush:
Its seems that you think the reason I, along with others are against the 25 regions is it will "restrict us" and limit our hunting opportunities.
This has nothing to do with my objection of the 25 regions. If the DWR is really interested in the deer herd, I say limit tags, and if necessary close down some areas.
Jason
Its seems that you think the reason I, along with others are against the 25 regions is it will "restrict us" and limit our hunting opportunities.
This has nothing to do with my objection of the 25 regions. If the DWR is really interested in the deer herd, I say limit tags, and if necessary close down some areas.
Jason
H
hedges
Guest
I hear all this talk about closing down area's and limit the hunting once it opens up. What good would that do? Sure this works for limited entry units but not for the huge general season area. I know everybody is worried about change and what will happen to the hunting but lets face it, if you can't accept the idea behind good science then were better off with no hunting at all. Yes that hurt writing it and yes I never want to see that happen. I agree that a smaller unit system is tough for us to accept because we like to hunt different places or meet up with friends someplace else but you can still do that with a smaller unit system. I know the places I like to hunt will be tough to draw if they changed but I can deal with getting a tag for my favorite mtn. every 2 or 3 years and hunt some meat area in between. I'd almost bet that quite a few general unit would be better than most of the limited entry units after a while. I hate to say it but some of the best genes in Utah are in general season units.
5 day hunts are a waste they have proven to be worthless in a smaller area. Pine valley has had a been that way for a long time and it still sucks. Browse and commanche was closed for many years after opening back up to general season. It still sucks for bucks. The 5 day hunt in southerwestern utah will have a better impact on bigger smarter bucks but anybody who gets a tag will shoot anything for the meat instead of looking for that big buck. The main reason 5 days hunts are worthless is that people hunt them first and much harder. Heck most of the southern unit is a 5 day hunt. I'd much rather see 4 point or better added to that so it would do what it's suppose to do and increase the buck numbers.
If you've been to the RAC meeting I can see how you wouldn't like the 25 unit system. The biologist are pathetic when it comes down to recommending ideas to the board. They are so afraid of loosing their jogs they won't stand up and say that won't work or I don't agree to that idea. I can think of many other not so choice words to call some of them but its not appropriate for public.
FYI: The DWR is doing away with the managing of buck to doe ratio's because they don't work with no control of management area's or hunters in a given area.
I think the biggest issue is the drought and how much development is going on in prime habitat areas. Plus take a look at how the DWR basically let the dedicated hunters work to improve deer herds and they worried more about turkeys and elk. Screw the turkeys and screw the elk (I'll only get one tag in my life time). They have almost ignored fish and deer in this state for way to many years. I can see some what why they did though, turkeys are cheap and everybody loves them, elk are a pain landowners and taste way to good not to kill.
5 day hunts are a waste they have proven to be worthless in a smaller area. Pine valley has had a been that way for a long time and it still sucks. Browse and commanche was closed for many years after opening back up to general season. It still sucks for bucks. The 5 day hunt in southerwestern utah will have a better impact on bigger smarter bucks but anybody who gets a tag will shoot anything for the meat instead of looking for that big buck. The main reason 5 days hunts are worthless is that people hunt them first and much harder. Heck most of the southern unit is a 5 day hunt. I'd much rather see 4 point or better added to that so it would do what it's suppose to do and increase the buck numbers.
If you've been to the RAC meeting I can see how you wouldn't like the 25 unit system. The biologist are pathetic when it comes down to recommending ideas to the board. They are so afraid of loosing their jogs they won't stand up and say that won't work or I don't agree to that idea. I can think of many other not so choice words to call some of them but its not appropriate for public.
FYI: The DWR is doing away with the managing of buck to doe ratio's because they don't work with no control of management area's or hunters in a given area.
I think the biggest issue is the drought and how much development is going on in prime habitat areas. Plus take a look at how the DWR basically let the dedicated hunters work to improve deer herds and they worried more about turkeys and elk. Screw the turkeys and screw the elk (I'll only get one tag in my life time). They have almost ignored fish and deer in this state for way to many years. I can see some what why they did though, turkeys are cheap and everybody loves them, elk are a pain landowners and taste way to good not to kill.
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-04 AT 11:03AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-04 AT 11:00?AM (MST)
Hedges, you said: "FYI: The DWR is doing away with the managing of buck to doe ratio's because they don't work with no control of management area's or hunters in a given area."
In the DWR's 5 year Deer Management Plan, which the Wildlife Board Approved in November of 2003 you will find:
"Population Objective 2: By 2008, achieve post-season buck:doe ratios based on a three-year average as follows:
-General Season Public Land Units (Table 1) - Regional average of 15 to 20 bucks per 100 does
-General Season Private Land Units (Table 2) - Minimum 15 bucks per 100 does
-Limited Entry Units (Table 3) - 25-35 bucks per 100 does
Premium Limited Entry Units (Table 4) - Minimum 35 bucks per 100 does and an average age of harvested bucks of 5.0 years."
The DWR has, does, and will monitor Buck : Doe ratios. (Exactly how accurate they are is always up for debate, but they are close)
I do agree with most of your last paragraph. But, drought and other factors are why the 5 day hunts have not been very successful in Southern Utah. Like I said before the Nebo was helped by the 5 day hunt, so it can work and has not been proven worthless. I just havn't seen the benefit from other states which have applied the Micro unit hunts. We already have them, 38 of them, that the DWR can and do manage individually if needed.
There is definatley no easy answer out there or someone would have come up with it. Deer numbers aren't down because there is a Buck : Doe ratio of 13 instead of 17. The numbers are down because the doe population isn't producing enough fawns to survive to breedable ages. Why????? I wish I knew.
Good Luck in The Draw.
Hedges, you said: "FYI: The DWR is doing away with the managing of buck to doe ratio's because they don't work with no control of management area's or hunters in a given area."
In the DWR's 5 year Deer Management Plan, which the Wildlife Board Approved in November of 2003 you will find:
"Population Objective 2: By 2008, achieve post-season buck:doe ratios based on a three-year average as follows:
-General Season Public Land Units (Table 1) - Regional average of 15 to 20 bucks per 100 does
-General Season Private Land Units (Table 2) - Minimum 15 bucks per 100 does
-Limited Entry Units (Table 3) - 25-35 bucks per 100 does
Premium Limited Entry Units (Table 4) - Minimum 35 bucks per 100 does and an average age of harvested bucks of 5.0 years."
The DWR has, does, and will monitor Buck : Doe ratios. (Exactly how accurate they are is always up for debate, but they are close)
I do agree with most of your last paragraph. But, drought and other factors are why the 5 day hunts have not been very successful in Southern Utah. Like I said before the Nebo was helped by the 5 day hunt, so it can work and has not been proven worthless. I just havn't seen the benefit from other states which have applied the Micro unit hunts. We already have them, 38 of them, that the DWR can and do manage individually if needed.
There is definatley no easy answer out there or someone would have come up with it. Deer numbers aren't down because there is a Buck : Doe ratio of 13 instead of 17. The numbers are down because the doe population isn't producing enough fawns to survive to breedable ages. Why????? I wish I knew.
Good Luck in The Draw.
Foreman4x4
Very Active Member
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Might not have a whole lot to do with splitting the State into smaller units, but my take on the DWR is they can't have any long term success by shutting a LE unit down for 5 years, or by limiting general season areas to a 5 day hunt for a couple of years, and then turn right around and give the same amount of permits as before. If you need proof, take a look at the Vernon unit. Sure they killed some whopper deer out there the first year or two it opened back up, but what's it like today? There's probably a few good bucks left, but nothing like it had the potential of being.
If splitting the State into smaller units would help the deer herds, I'd be all for it, but my opinion is the only thing the DWR is concerned about is selling permits and putting $$$$ in their coffers. Hell, if the deer herds are in such poor shape, why not shut individual units down, or maybe even the whole State for a couple of years? The obviously recognize a problem because of the 5 day units, but when are most deer going to be killed any way, opening weekend. IMHO, if there's a serious enough problem to warrant a reduced time frame hunt, there's a serious enough reason to shut the whole thing down.
If splitting the State into smaller units would help the deer herds, I'd be all for it, but my opinion is the only thing the DWR is concerned about is selling permits and putting $$$$ in their coffers. Hell, if the deer herds are in such poor shape, why not shut individual units down, or maybe even the whole State for a couple of years? The obviously recognize a problem because of the 5 day units, but when are most deer going to be killed any way, opening weekend. IMHO, if there's a serious enough problem to warrant a reduced time frame hunt, there's a serious enough reason to shut the whole thing down.
R
RuttCrazed
Guest
Seems like everyone that is against the smaller regions, states that if the DWR can't manage 5 units how can they manage 25? In reality it would be much easier to manage 25 units than it would be to manage 5. If you limit the Southern Region to 10,000 tags, you still have no guarntee that all 10,000 people won't show up at Fish Lake on opening morning! By splitting the state into smaller units you could basically decide how many hunters are on each mountain. I don't see how that wouldn't help deer populations??
Rut
Rut
PleaseDear
Long Time Member
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I agree, that is the whole reason for the 25 units is to help control harvest/crowd control in certain high access areas.
When ya aply for Nv. ya apply for a specific unit/weapon, Colo. specific unit/weapon and the same in many Rocky Mnt. states.
It'll be a little bit of a hassle the first year or two until everyone gets the units boundaries squared away for their hunts but I think in the long run it will really benifit the buck/does ratio and us hunters with more animals afield during our hunts.
When ya aply for Nv. ya apply for a specific unit/weapon, Colo. specific unit/weapon and the same in many Rocky Mnt. states.
It'll be a little bit of a hassle the first year or two until everyone gets the units boundaries squared away for their hunts but I think in the long run it will really benifit the buck/does ratio and us hunters with more animals afield during our hunts.
woodruffhunter
Long Time Member
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Maybe you are right (about splitting up the regions). If they spilt up the regions, I hope they are successful and I am proved wrong.
With the deer herd in its current state, I know something needs to be done.
Jason
With the deer herd in its current state, I know something needs to be done.
Jason
H
hedges
Guest
It's tough to compare Southern utah to central or northern. I do agree the drough is so much worse down south. The 5 day hunts have had some success with bigger deer but just finding a buck is tough. The 5 day hunts have increased the pressure because people are hearing about some guys buck and so they spend the entire 5 days hunting that area. I'm sure if we had some fawns survive it would be a different story because everybody would be so concerned about finding a buck but just hunting their favorite spots.
The way things are going down south if fillmore didn't have a good herd the entire unit will be a 5 day hunt. Heck they should change the entire unit to 5 days and reduce the tags. They are just shooting themselves in the foot by managing the way they are.
The way things are going down south if fillmore didn't have a good herd the entire unit will be a 5 day hunt. Heck they should change the entire unit to 5 days and reduce the tags. They are just shooting themselves in the foot by managing the way they are.
B
bobcats
Guest
Boy, I'm sure not going to be complaining about Idaho rules anymore. Sounds like you guys have a pain in the rear. If you want to hunt in Idaho you just go down to Walmart and get your tag and supplies and head out. Yes, some areas are a little more crowded but nothing like you guys are talking about.
I guess instead of messing up the tag system they figured they would just let the wolves take over.
I guess instead of messing up the tag system they figured they would just let the wolves take over.
H
hedges
Guest
Thats funny but that is the new thing Utah is trying to manage. I guess that couldn't do any worse then the deer herds. I'm glad to see a success story even if it wolves. Maybe someday I'll get to waste my money hoping to shoot one.
