Nuts about bucks, ethical ..?..

M

manny15

Guest
First off let me say I enjoyed the video, I think Hatch puts out the best Vid's I've seen as far as the bigest and the most awesom bucks on film.

The question I'm interested in (eveyone's opinion) did he (Ryan) go to far by shooting the buck from arizona with a bow at 70 plus yards...?...

My Brother inlaw was able to hit a pie plate at 80 yards consistanly, but we never thought of shooting at a buck that far, my best was 45 yards max.......any thoughts..?..
 
I know I will be getting hammered by the under 20 yds crowd, but I haven't seen the video.( but I would shoot out to 70 yds if I practiced that far all the time) You shoot where you feel the best at if your MAX is 30 yds so be it, I shoot out farther then that do I miss Yes that why the havest rate for bow is around 12%
Well have fun with this.
 
Another lets slam Ryan post. Who cares the buck died. Like you wouldnt flip an arrow at a 230+ buck at 70 yrds given the chance.
 
I havent seen the vid, probably wont either as Im not too big on watching others kill stuff. It just doest fulfill me like if I were hunting. But maybe the question is answered in the video itself. Was the shot clean? Did the buck die? Was it tracked for 2 days then put down? If the answer is yes to the first two questions and no to the third then I believe you have your answer, and this comes down to skill, not ethics. Weve all been coming here long enough to know better than to start an ethics debate.

Mike
at235.gif
 
Manny is right, Ryan does put out some pretty awesome videos. His Muley Crazy series is well produced and he has got some absolute toads on tape. As far as his shot goes I don't think he went to far by shooting that buck at 70 yards. I agree that it is a very long distance for a bow and a lot of things can go wrong at that range. If an animal takes one step, a lung hit can turn into a gut shot. I think it's all about knowing what you and your equipment is capable of doing. I know some good hunters who can shoot better at 70 yards than some can at 20(sad,but true). When you are archery hunting you are faced with circumstanes that make harvesting an animal very difficult and challenging. That's why we bowhunt. It's hard to say how an animal will react to the shot. I have seen animals jump the string and get missed completely while shot at with quiet bows at 20 yards! On the other hand I have seen animals get nailed at 50 yards without a clue as to what just happened(in both cases the animals were undisturbed) You never know what will happen but I do agree it is best to stack the odds in your favor. I would take a 20 yard shot over a 70 yard shot any day. Purposely shooting at animals beyond the distance you feel comfortable with is foolish, however todays technology(laser rangefinders,high speed bows,etc.) has upped the capabilities of dedicated archers to an almost scary level. Look at todays new long range guns for example. I am certainly not condoning long shots out of desperation but in the right, trained hands these weapons are simply amazing. Lots of guys who PRACTICE and are proficient with these weapons can shoot better groups at 400 yards than some can at 200 hundred. It cracks me up when I hear guys talking about getting some long range gun or super fast bow and all of a sudden(without even practicing!)they are ultra long range, deer slaying, super hunters. That approach is simply ridiculous. There is no substitute for PRACTICE and EXPERIENCE. You cannot buy success. The weapon is capable of making the shot but without practice and training a human quite frankly is not. Also like I said earlier, lots of things can go wrong at extreme ranges. The wind, sun in your eyes, and animals movements can turn a fatal shot into a wound and a miserable death for the animal. I think it is all about having a perfect shot condition and knowing what you are capable of doing. Some guys can bench press 600 pounds but I can't, so why even bother trying it? That is how I feel about long range shots. I killed my 02 muley with one shot at 70 yards. I would have preferred a closer shot but a thick wall of oak brush prevented it. However I felt very comfortable with the shot and knew I could make it so I took it. It resulted in a clean kill. Getting back to the video maybe it wasn't the best idea to announce such a long shot. I am sure a lot of beginners will watch that video and think hmm... if he can whack 'em at 70 than by god I can too! That mentalty is the absolute last thing we need when it comes to bowhunting. Flinging arrows willy nilly at ranges they haven't practiced will result in wounded deer and will make bowhunters look like clowns. Practice and taking the shot you feel comfortable with is what I believe in. For one guy it might be 70 yards archery and 500 rifle, and another guy might be 30 archery and 300 rifle. The most respect we can give these animals is to at least give them a swift, and clean death. It might sound kind of "unsporting" and not "challenging" when you hear about these ridiculous ranges that animals are being taken at nowadays. It is true, with todays gear it might not seem as sporting and the animals definitely have less of a chance, but that is what hunting has evolved into and we can never change it. Trophy hunting is still extremely difficult though even with all of todays stuff. How many 40 inch muleys, 140 coues, or 440 bulls have you guys shot lately? I certainly haven't killed any. They still call it hunting and not just shooting. I know there is a large population of more traditional hunters who don't really like the whole "technology" and "long range" ideas, but that is great. I totally support these guys but there seems to be two "species" of hunter nowadays. One with more traditional gear who is in it for the challenge and there is the high tech guy who is also in it for the challenge but likes to have a little more in his equipment to harvest big trophies. Both groups are great as they are both HUNTERS and hunters need to stick together. Different strokes for different folks. Take the shot that you feel comfortable with and know will result in a clean kill. I think I talked too damn much, sorry.

CHIEF
 
> Another lets slam Ryan post.
>Who cares the buck died.
>Like you wouldnt flip an
>arrow at a 230+ buck
>at 70 yrds given the chance.


Please give me a break, this isn't about Ryan, but about shots that far, as in a previous post on a video some guy shot a buck at 600 yrds and every body had their panties in a knot....

I believe I'm a proficient rifle shot up to 600 yards no prob...I just never concidered a shot that far, besides I haven't hunted with a bow in about 10 years.......
 
Chino: I agree. I think each of us should know our limitations and only work within those. We should practice shooting and know our equipment and the conditions we are hunting in. I think 70 yards is very acceptable to many bowhunters depending on who they are, and 40 yards is way too much for some. It boils down to the idividual hunter and his/her skills............ Allen Taylor......
 
Ok, I'm sorry. I figured it was another "Ryans a crook" post.
I agree with everyone else,know your limitations.
 
ALL the people that make these videos HAVE footage of bad shots (not saying Ryans was, haven't seen it). The ones that show some class and respect for the animals and care about the hunter image are the ones that leave that kind of crap on the editing floor and don't include it just to make extra money.
 
Good reply Chief .

Manny regarding your ethics question . I think one who has been convicted of poaching (even if it was a long time ago ) and chases deer with a plane has some questionable ethics to begin with .

I am sure there a quite a few than can take 70 yards shots and kill deer , but to put it on film for the general public is just wrong , in MY opinion .
 
I don't think it matters if you can hit a dime 9 out of 10 at 70 yards, there are to many things that can go wrong in the time it takes to get the arrow there.We all know about jumping the string , wind, scent an unforseen twig. How would you feel if you wounded a 230" buck and couldn't find him. I know the new bows are fast, I shoot an LX myself, but I would be sick for a long time if I wounded a buck like that or any animal for that matter. Just my 2 cents feel free to hammer me. Steve
 
Sheepshooter: just curious if you think that a person who was convicted of a DUI (even if it was a long time ago and this person hasn't drank an adult beverage in many years) but, (still associates with people who still drink alcohol or happens to buy booze for say a retirement dinner),still has some questionable ethics problems? Thanks, Rick
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-04 AT 11:58AM (MST)[p]Yolla Bolly , That's a very good comparision and made me think , although it's not apples to apples .

To answer your question , yes I would still have an uneasyness ( not sure if that is a word ) with that person . I would expect that person to go out of there way to show others they have changed , because obvioulsy they have problems with poor jugdement .

A few years ago I may have thought differently , but now with children I do not look at things the same way anymore . I try to look at things through there eyes and in there best interest . Would I let my children drive with someone convicted of DUI . No way . Would I show them a video of someone shooting a buck at 70 yards . No . Would I teach them poaching a deer is acceptable after a few years have past and most have forgotten about it . No . I believe in personal accountability and you have to pay for past wrongs . I also believe people breaking the law don't always get caught on there first outing . To me it shows a complete disregard to others and the law .
 
Now I don't usually get involved in posts like these, as they never seem to end in a postive manner. However, I feel I need to reply to a few statements that have been posted.

First off, let's get the facts correct. At first I wondered if the video you were referring to was the same I have in my game room. This video does NOT....I repeat does NOT show Ryan shooting a MonsterMuley at 70 yards with a bow and arrow. What it does depict is him standing behind the downed animal and he simply states the yardage he shot the animal from. A little different from what is being portrayed above.

Now those that have known me on this site know I like close shots.....the closer the better. Now that's not for lack of shooting ability, as I gladly compete with ANYONE at ANY distance and fair rather well during these showdowns. :) Its just my own personal preference is to get close, as I feel my success greatly increases. HOWEVER, to be honest I've seen deer jump the string at 50 yards AND 20 yards both, so that can happen at ANY distance, no matter what set-up you're using. Furthermore, I try not to judge others for the distance they shoot. Just because I choose not to shoot long distances at live animals does not mean I'm right and they are wrong. Stay within your limits is all I ask.

For those that have been around archery for a while (20+ years) long shots were ALWAYS practiced and completed during NFAA rounds and many archers (Howard Hill, Fred Bear, Fred Asbell)were down right lethal at these extreme yardages! So, it's also not a "new" compound thing either. This debate has been going on as long at the Chevy vs. Ford and will ALWAYS be here.

As far as questioning Mr. Hatch's decisions of the past, I think people need to get over it and move on. Anything he did, he paid for and then some.

Now let's talk some hunting folks! Hey OSOK, have you got one tied up for me yet? If so, keep it under 40 yards okay? :)

BOHNTR )))------------->
 
I never meant this to go into Ryan past for God sake, I would hope people could forget a mistake some one may have committed back when people do change.

When I was 19 I did 60 days for in the county jail for stealing a tool box out of a truck I was drunk and dumb, it was my only time stealing anything, have I changed YES!. God forbid people around town would never forget my past; as a matter of fact I've been friends with the officers that arrested me back then.....

So I was glad to see the buck on the vid was down we (My son and I) quit bow hunting when we lost a double lug shot trophy buck didn't care for the sick feeling too much, I admire those bow hunters who can shoot straight and can track the animal after the shot.. end of story..

(P.S) Jealousy can cause a person to never forget the past of some one especially a successful trophy buck hunter
 
BOHNTR,

Very well said and I could not agree more.

To the people with negative remarks about Ryan, please remember a famous quote from the big gut in the sky, "to err is human, to forgive is divine". I find it hilarious to see these people come out and slam others as if they have never made a mistake in their lives. I would rather focus on the positive things Ryan has done with his new magazine. I feel that MuleyCrazy Magazine is the best publication out there and I feel that he has raised the awarness and heighted the urgency of what needs to be done. He has spent countless hours researching the decline of mule deer and how this trend compares with trends of the past, in fact he will have a very interesting article coming out soon talking about this. He has donated his time and effort to the conservation and preservation of these amazing animals yet there are a few guys here that continue to focus on the negative. With that type of attitude its hard to see how anything will get done in the future.

Drum
 
Thanks for the civil responses . Again I'm just stating my MY opinion . I can have a harsh view of poachers . I've witnessed two poachers in the act . One got nailed . The other they coulnd'nt get enough on him to charge him . I feel if one poaches a big game animal they should lose their hunting privledges for life . Others feel differently and that is fine .

Again I never said I had a problem with someone taking a long shot , just putting it on film for the general public , even just saying it .

P.S. Manny
Not sure why I would be jealous of the guy , actually I feel bad for him .
 
Manny,
I know you've been on this board a long time and you can't tell me you don't know what a heated debate the name "Ryan Hatch" conjures up on this site. LOL! I might be wrong but by the title of your post and think you were trying to stir things up.

Situational Ethics is just that. No one but the person involved can make the decision out in the field. Everyone has a choice to make as to what they set as their personal ethics. And when you have a big brute in your sites it is a split second choice that you've got to make. Can you make the shot? Only you know. It is always sad when there is a group of Armchair Ethicians standing on the sidelines of internet boards calling foul after the fact. They weren't there, so everything they say is speculation and hearsay.

I'm currently waiting for my "Nuts about Bucks" to arrive in the mail. I am really looking forward to it. Ryan has set the standard for quality and from what I hear he has surpassed his previous efforts with this latest video. I personally love his other videos and can say that they really inspired me over the years to be the hard-core big buck chaser that I am. Now with his magazine, he has set another new stardard by which all other magazines will be measured. I hold it up as the best magazine on the market by far.
 
Sheepshooter, above you said

"A few years ago I may have thought differently , but now with children I do not look at things the same way anymore . I try to look at things through there eyes and in there best interest . Would I let my children drive with someone convicted of DUI . No way . Would I show them a video of someone shooting a buck at 70 yards . No . Would I teach them poaching a deer is acceptable after a few years have past and most have forgotten about it . No . I believe in personal accountability and you have to pay for past wrongs . I also believe people breaking the law don't always get caught on there first outing . To me it shows a complete disregard to others and the law ."

I wonder if you will change your tune when one of your own children makes a mistake in life? Maybe you won't. I also have a couple of very young boys and plan to teach them that driving under the influence and poaching among a half million other things is WRONG. I pray to God if they make a mistake in their lives that they are able to learn from it and that others will be willing to forgive them. Lord knows I've not been perfect in my life. I'm just damn glad that nobody is still holding everything I ever did wrong against me!

I agree with Huntsonora's e-mail. Ryan has done a lot of good for muleys and will continue to do so whether we support him or not.

I said it before and I'll say it again. If you agree with the content and enjoy the video buy it and watch it. If you don't, don't. It's as simple as that. Bitching about what someone else may of may not have done in the past isn't going to change a thing or solve anything.

NvrEnuf
 
>Manny,
>I know you've been on this
>board a long time and
>you can't tell me you
>don't know what a heated
>debate the name "Ryan Hatch"
>conjures up on this site.
>LOL! I might be wrong
>but by the title of
>your post and think you
>were trying to stir things
>up.
>
>Situational Ethics is just that. No
>one but the person involved
>can make the decision out
>in the field. Everyone has
>a choice to make as
>to what they set as
>their personal ethics. And when
>you have a big brute
>in your sites it is
>a split second choice that
>you've got to make. Can
>you make the shot? Only
>you know. It is always
>sad when there is a
>group of Armchair Ethicians standing
>on the sidelines of internet
>boards calling foul after the
>fact. They weren't there, so
>everything they say is speculation
>and hearsay.
>
>I'm currently waiting for my "Nuts
>about Bucks" to arrive in
>the mail. I am really
>looking forward to it. Ryan
>has set the standard for
>quality and from what I
>hear he has surpassed his
>previous efforts with this latest
>video. I personally love his
>other videos and can say
>that they really inspired me
>over the years to be
>the hard-core big buck chaser
>that I am. Now with
>his magazine, he has set
>another new stardard by which
>all other magazines will be
>measured. I hold it up
>as the best magazine on
>the market by far.


BC' your right I should have picked a better title, I was just blown away by the distance of the shot, if it were anybody else I would still have posted this question...

When I was younger I would do just about anything to nail a big deer these days I prefer to try and out smart 'em or wait ?em out.... this has not always worked as the last two years have proven, cause I didn't tag out, but such is the game. I still respect and admire Ryan, so my apologies to Mr. Hatch??.
 
NvrEnuf , when my children make mistakes in the future I hope they will learn from them . If they ever poach an animal I will feel as though I have failed as a father .

I'm not out to get Ryan , I've never met him and he may be a hell of a guy who spends his time doing good deeds . I do have a problem ( as stated in a post above ) with someone who has poached no matter who they are .I was just responding to Manny's original question .

To me it's a shame that someone who is as talented as they are , and who can make a living at what we all love to do has this in there background all the time .

Ok I'm done bitching about what someone has done in there past .
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-04 AT 05:15AM (MST)[p]Ryan Hatch seems to be a great guy. How many of you have had a conversation with him before?
A really down to earth good guy in my opinion.

It is easy to be jealous of another hunter because of there success. You can either learn and work on getting to that level or you can gripe about and think everything is fishy.
Who has not done something in the past that they are not ashamed of or have not learned from it?
Look at it this way if Ryan was doing so much wrong as some believe he would not be able to hunt. Last I knew he is hunting so most of the accusations I hear must be stretched way out of shape.

I know I may be a loud mouth at times myself but I will always stand up and defend anyone that is jumped on without deserving it.
Just my opinion.
Best,
Jerry
 
>Thanks for the civil responses .
>Again I'm just stating my
>MY opinion . I can
>have a harsh view of
>poachers . I've witnessed two
>poachers in the act .
>One got nailed . The
>other they coulnd'nt get enough
>on him to charge him
>. I feel if one
>poaches a big game animal
>they should lose their hunting
>privledges for life . Others
>feel differently and that is
>fine .
>
>Again I never said I had
>a problem with someone taking
>a long shot , just
>putting it on film for
>the general public ,
>even just saying it .
>
>
>P.S. Manny
>Not sure why I would be
>jealous of the guy ,
>actually I feel bad for
>him .


Sheepshooter' I was not accusing you of being jealous, I was just stating something that happened to me personally a few years ago and the possibility of it happening to others....
 

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