Killing Muley Does on General License

ICMDEER · Mar 31, 2004

I just went to the Wyoming Game and Fish big game season setting meeting last night and they are going to have a doe season in area 64 (Region J) this fall. It will be the last 3 days of the season and anyone with an over the counter general license can shoot a doe or fawn. No quota or limit, just shoot does. The herd is not above objective, but they have not shot does for 10 years, so they are opening it up.

We have FAR FEWER deer than we have in the past and every person at the meeting was against the doe season. Every landowner present and those speaking for others also opposed the doe season.

What do you guys think and what can we do?

By the way, we also have a 14 day doe season on a general license farther east in area 55 and it is BELOW herd objective. WOW!!

BrianID · Mar 31, 2004

F&G department do some stupid things that don't make sense sometimes. If it is too late to change the doe season then the best thing you can do is inform the land owners and hunters in the area about the situation and encourage them not to shoot any does.

Bura Nut · Mar 31, 2004

Arizona is in the process of something similar on the Kaibab. 1500 does yet the unit is below carrying capacity in the minds of most if not all sportsmen. Arizona Deer Association is working with AZGFD to dramatically reduce these harvest goals and to change the way the department interprets some of the data. For example AZGFD does not count deer and therefore the existing herd number of somewhere around 9200 deer on the west side is a complete guess and not based on sound science. Hopefully we get the tag numbers drastically reduced this year and eliminated from next years objectives.....Wyoming should not be killing any does with the overall populations on the decline..... Allen Taylor......

ozstriker22 · Mar 31, 2004

GEEEZ! F&G DEPARTMENT... MORE LIKE FAG DEPARTMENT! WHAT A BUNCH OF MORONS!

searcher · Mar 31, 2004

Did the G&F give any reasons for this? Drought conditions, complaints from landowners, etc? I read on another site that there was going to be a slight increase in the number of licenses in eastern wyoming for deer and antelope. Perhaps this is the slight increase. I've been turning down scrubby little bucks for years and now the scrubby little bucks' mothers are going to get hammered! Doesn't that translate to = no more scrubby little bucks? What would the G&F do if everyone stayed home and didn't buy licenses?

Searchin' for a 4 X 4

kilbuc · Mar 31, 2004

Depends on what herd health and habitat trend is. If you have declining habitat conditions, even if you are at herd popul. objective., then you are just trying to balance herd size with declining habitat conditions.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"

conch · Mar 31, 2004

It pains me to see another fifteen hundred doe tags issued on the Kaibab.
I wished the Kaibab plateau could maintain the deer numbers similar to the late 80's and early 90's. It was awesome!
However, the Kaibab is in, and has been in a serious drought cycle for about a decade now! Next time you get up on the Kaibab, take some time and look around. Remember that summer range and winter range are two different issues. The unit can only carry animal numbers equivalent to what the lower elevations food source allows. Trust me, the winter range is in extremely poor condition, (understatement) and without better than normal precipitation for an extended period of time, this fact will not change. The problem continues to decline with no end in sight. Another thing you have to give consideration. Mule deer Don't always use available forage. I've seen deer pass through perfectly good habitat containing abundant feed and water only to arrive and remain at a location hardly able to sustain life. This has to do with what they learned from their mothers when they were fawns. (biology stuff)
Anyway, I think individuals with real biology degrees are likely better qualified to determine what carrying capacities should be on any given unit. If in fact anybody thinks the Kaibab figures are skewed, why not find an independent biologist to conduct bonafide deer counts. And then using whatever means credible, determine how much forage is available. If the figures don't jive, then approach the Fish & Game.
Until someone can show me factual numbers countering, I will trust the local Kaibab biologist. Of course, I know him to be well schooled and he has the best interest of mule deer and other wildlife at heart.

graybeard · Mar 31, 2004

I'd be willing to bet they are concerned about their fawn to doe ratios according to what the drought is doing to the habitat. They've obviously decided that the carrying capacity for the area has shrunk. Wildlife officials are always worried about what will happen to their unhealthy herds in case of a huge winter. They are preparing the herd to be healthy enough to withstand a terrible winter. Just a guess, Steve

graybeard · Mar 31, 2004

Forgot to add....look at what they are doing with the "light colored" geese in the mid west. There is a serious problem with their breeding grounds up north. Check it out, Steve

campmorgan · Apr 1, 2004

Shooting doe in Texas used to be a very unmanly thing to do and you were scorned for killing off the breeding stock.
However.
Shooting doe really works.
We do it on whitetail and mule deer.
I hunted where there were hardly any deer. We would see only a few deer in a season and that is over two months long.
Texas Parks and Wildlife came with a LAME BRAIN idea to shoot doe. We were up in arms and rasin cane.
When we determined we could not stop the program we decided to go along with it. Might as well get our last taste of deer meat before they become extinct.
Guess what. Doe were so used to not being shot we all tagged out on doe. On 1,200 acres we removed about 15 doe.
Strange thing happened that year. We started seeing very young doe with twins popping up everywhere.
What was a one buck county became a one buck and two doe county.
This has been going on for years and the deer continue to spread and multiply. Many more trophy buck many more doe.
If you want more nice bucks and more deer get those barren doe in the freezer, rest the land and watch them multiply.
Those Game and Fish people may be a little wiser than you think.

Bura Nut · Apr 1, 2004

Conch: you are right on about hiring professionals. We have hired an independant consulting group that will actually come up with a population estimate. If you are familiar with the biologist for the Kaibab then you know he was at the meeting this past friday. He is very open to working with the group we are bringing in. I in no way am a biologist but have been working with guys that live close and have hunted the Kaibab as guides for 20 years. I am very very concerned when I know Todd has used browse cross section techniques and relied on data and proceedures from the 1960's that may not be statistically significant in todays era. We need to start a baseline where we know the actual populations, work on predator control and watch out for years where the fawn mortality rate is high. This coupled with the phenominal growth of food sources in the burn area should help start a better long term management plan for the Kaibab. Everyone should read Ryan's article in Muley Crazy, he hits the nail on the head............ Allen Taylor......

Wyobowhunt · Apr 1, 2004

All can say is it is not a smart choice to open this area up for does. In some area's of 64 they are like pets and you can get within 5 yds of them. Also to answer a question about the area not being able to hold the number in bad weather. I would have to say this is also not a good reason, there is an ok amount of grass up there. I just hope most people realize this and don't just put a major slaughter on the does. Just my feelings

Later
Wyobowhunt

kilbuc · Apr 1, 2004

WYO...no offense but deer don't eat grass 12 months of the year.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"

ICMDEER · Apr 2, 2004

The reasons they listed were the standards. Deteriorating habitat conditions, fear of a tough winter and CWD. All B.S. in my estimation. I asked if they had long term trends on deer populations, and they don't even have a population estimate for the areas being opened to doe harvest. There were 75 fawns per 100 does last fall, the best in a while.

As a sidenote, I have completed research on mule deer nutrition in the area. This was both as a private consultant and as an employee of the University of Wyoming. The Game and Fish folks are under the sad misconception that these deer are eating brush (mahogany, big sagebrush, bitterbrush and sumac) in the winter. My research data proves this is just not true in this ecotype. This data and mehtodology has been published in state and national publication (like Mule Deer Magazine).

I will try to show them the data, but I have NEVER seen them change their minds once they make a proposal like this.

Too bad they don't do their homework. And too bad Wyoming Game and Fish does not do as good of a job with mule deer as they do on other species like pronghorn or sheep. My nickel's worth.

Jim

Ant · Apr 2, 2004

I think somebody else already mentioned it but I chose to eat my tag last year instead of take a doe in Region D. I had an any deer tag and does were easy pickens, but I chose not to shoot one. I was lucky alot of the hunters in group got bucks most small ones so I still got to take home some meat for the freezer.

Wyobowhunt · Apr 2, 2004

LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-04 AT 10:07AM (MST)[p]kilbuc, no offense taken but they do eat grass up thier most of the year. Look at ICMDEER's post. But I understand what you are saying because a lot of area's they do eat this during the winter. But I don't want to start a debate over this the more impoerant thing is why are they opening it up fors does.
WYobowhunt

ICMDEER · Apr 2, 2004

Ant,

Thanks for not shooting one of our ladies. We apreciate it.

The research I completed shows that the deer in the Laramie Range eat mostly finged sage (53% of their ration)in the winter. Then big sagebrush (30%+) and nothing else is more than 4%. In the plains, the primary foods were pine and yucca at more than 30% each and corn was about 25%. Fringed sage is a very small, almost unnoticable plant. In the mountains, over 80% of the summer ration was mountain mahogany. In the plains, alfalfa was over 80% of the summer ration. The deer do eat grass, but only when it is green and succulent and it only makes up a very small part of the ration.

Just in case any one cares. (Not likely!!)

Jim

Bura Nut · Apr 2, 2004

Jim, I actually care and would love to get a copy of your research if possible. We are faced with some of the same situations in AZ on the Kaibab. I think the deer are eating other food items than what the game department is looking at. Anyway is there any way of getting your research so we may incorporate it into a study we are doing down here with our group?......thanks....... Allen Taylor......

wmidbrook · Apr 2, 2004

ICMDEER, that's pretty interesting (80% Mt. Mahogany)--out in NW NV and NE CA, juniper encroachment has killed off a ton of Mt. Mahogany and everyone wonders why deer populations are down 60%-80%.

ICMDEER · Apr 2, 2004

Bura,

I will be glad to help you. I can get you a copy of the results, but the best thing to do is complete a microhistoligical analysis to determine exactly what the deer are eating during various seasons. What you have to do is collect manure samples at the time of the year for which you want to determine the diet. The manure samples are then sent to a lab for a cell-by-cell analysis. You'll get a printout of exactly what the deer ate by plant species.

I'm going to be out of touch for a full week starting in an hour, and I'm thinking they don't even have internet service where I'm headed. Shoot me a message in a week at my business e-mail, [email protected] and I will get you some help.

Same for everyone else. If you really want to know what your deer are eating and whether a supplement will help them, I have done research and developed rations and mineral supplements for various areas. Holler if I can help.

Jim

campmorgan · Apr 5, 2004

>Ant,
>
>Thanks for not shooting one of
>our ladies. We apreciate
>it.
>
>The research I completed shows that
>the deer in the Laramie
>Range eat mostly finged sage
>(53% of their ration)in the
>winter. Then big sagebrush
>(30%+) and nothing else is
>more than 4%. In
>the plains, the primary foods
>were pine and yucca at
>more than 30% each and
>corn was about 25%.
>Fringed sage is a very
>small, almost unnoticable plant.
>In the mountains, over 80%
>of the summer ration was
>mountain mahogany. In the
>plains, alfalfa was over 80%
>of the summer ration.
>The deer do eat grass,
>but only when it is
>green and succulent and it
>only makes up a very
>small part of the ration.
>
>
>Just in case any one cares.
> (Not likely!!)
>
>Jim

conch · Apr 5, 2004

Kaibab deer are eating different food items than what the fish and game thinks.
If this is a fact, I would tend to think this to help confirm the local biologist's case.

campmorgan · Apr 5, 2004

It seems you guys do a lot of research and most know what your talking about concerning what deer eat.
I agree that deer are browsers not grazers.
You have some nice deer but to manage them you must take doe.
Big doe are more likely to not reproduce as well as young small doe.
It's pretty simple:
Shoot the big doe and there will be more food for more reproductive doe.
Don't shoot the little bucks for meat or you will see fewer and fewer big bucks.
Control burn the food supply so it will regenerate.
This works in Texas on mule deer, white tail, turkey, hogs in drought conditions.
Gove your GAME & FISH a chance and help them.
Just try it and see.