Antler Growth?

[Bowtecher]

What do you guys and gals feel is the biggest factor of antler Growth?
Is it genetics or does feed play the biggest factor?

Lets here some of your ideas.

 

[HiMtnHntr]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-07 AT 10:59AM (MST)[p]If you are talking record class antlers, without the genetics to grow an exceptional rack, an animal can have the best feed in the world and will never get there.

 

[Rammu]

Its a combination of both. IF they have the genetics they will grow big but with extra feed and water its a matter of how big.

 

[Bowtecher]

What if they have good genetics but there is a drought in the area how many inches of growth will they lose?

 

[junior]

My opinion...genetics is 80% of a good antler growth. As far as how much they lose during a drought...I would guess around 30" to 40".

 

[AZ402]

Age, genetics and feed.........

 

[maddglasser]

Would a spike loose 30-40" as well or just the really big bulls? Nobody EVER brings up that rag horns and spikes are smaller, do they? Or I guess nobody cares!

 

[junior]

Hard question to answer, but during drought years, we hear about 370" to 380" bulls being harvest...then during wet years its 390" to 400". So actually its depends on how severe things are....sheds explain alot....when 5th year sheds are smaller than the fourth...its easier to understand.
I am sure the spikes are smaller to.

 

[camuleycrazy]

In Az. drought year can mean 10% or more in horn growth but genetics is the most important factor 80-90% of size.

 

[proutdoors]

I would say age is the number one factor, followed by genetics, then moisture/nutrients. I dare say the genetics is just as good in Colorado as in Utah, the primary reason they don't have as big of bulls is the bulls in Utah are allowed to real full potential before being killed. Nevada has some great data showing the 'peak' ages for maximum antler size(7-10 years of age). In any given herd, genetics will be varied, it is age that seperates MOST 340 class bulls from 380 class bulls.

PRO

 

[400PLUS]

Genetics are everything most of Utah's unit's are to high in elevation to worry about drought to much unlike Arizona's 6000 ft elevation where drought will have a much bigger effect Utah's units most of them over 10000 ft takes longer to feel the drought by the time you see it antler growth is over. I have seen 10 year old bulls that score 320 in the north and southern units have 6 year old bulls that score 420 so I feel genetics are everything.

 

[elkguide]

There are many things that can influence antler growth, one- you must have the genetics there in order to grow big antlers, two- age can influence when a bull or buck will reach his genetic potential, three- dought can effect antler growth by how much just depends on the severity of the drought and when the drought started, four- health of the animal growing the antlers, if a buck or a bull does not go into the growing season in good health that will influence his antler growth, how drastically depends on how un-healthy he is. Everything factors into antler growth, even on younger bulls and bucks. Areas that depend on winter snow and spring precip in order for good forage to grow seem to see more changes in antler growth from year to year rather than the higher elevation areas. Antler growth in high elevation areas will have more effect on the way a bull or buck finishes out, sometime if they don't get the summer rains the back ends on some bulls can be stunted slightly, maybe loosing 10 inches total. Just my two cents!
Elkguide

 

[canon]

>Would a spike loose 30-40" as
>well or just the really
>big bulls? Nobody EVER brings
>up that rag horns and
>spikes are smaller, do they?
>Or I guess nobody cares!
>


The 30-40" is a general term speaking of larger bulls, the drought can effect antlers up to 10%. I have seen 400" bulls loose 40+" on a drought year.

I would say most people dont pay attention or it is hard to notice on small bulls. I dont care about them personally.

 

[Rammu]

Pro.. There is no way that colorado could have as good of Genetics as utah if for the last 10 years anything with good genetics has either died off or was harvested. For the last atleast 8 years it has primarily been 280 class bulls that are doing the breeding. The Genetics in colorado has been taken right out of colorado.

 

[maddglasser]

WOW, 40 inches!!! I wonder what those 400 inch bulls that are killed on drought years would have been like on wet years? Would they have been 440, or maybe even bigger? Hell I guess the sky is the limit on wet years.

 

[Silentstalker]

Question??

Do you think the genetics have been shot out in Colorado or are the bulls getting killed before they show their potential? I have not hunted colorado so can not comment but Utah used to be pretty average on bulls. I remember when you had to hunt your butt off to even see a 5 point bull on the Manti or Wasatch. Now the average harvested bull is between 7-8 years old.

To my knowledge there have not been any big bulls shipped in to changed the genetics on Utah's units. The herds in Utah have merely been able to show their potential by allowing bulls to grow old. With this logic and forming my own oppinion, I say it is age and habitat. Not sure which order they go but they are both vital.

Have a great day.

Chad

 

[canon]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-07 AT 10:28PM (MST)[p]Yes 40", and can be more or less depending on the severity of the drought where the bull grew up. I havent heard of too many 400" bulls killed on bad drought years. The biggest bull i heard of in no az last year in the horrible drought was 389. And yes, that bull should have been in the class you mentioned. Nothing proves it more than pics and sheds year after year. You have to really watch and follow them to notice. Of course everybody sees them but it is interesting to see that none were harvested... lets see some pics from no az last year of bulls that were killed over 400???? Havent seen any, but maybe i am missing something... It is interesting that both gov. tags did not kill... yet.

 

[proutdoors]

Rammu, how did Utah suddenly get 'great' genetics? How many 400 class bulls where roamong the hills of Utah back then? NONE! Colorado has every bit as good of genetics as Utah, they just kill the bulls before they can 'show off' their genes. Look at the average harvest age of bulls from Colorado vs Utah. Are you saying the genetics are getting better in Utah every year? Or, is it that the harvets age is increasing yearly, thus the size of bulls is increasing as well? Let bulls get to be 8+ yrs on AVERAGE in Colorado like on MANY units in Utah, and I am willing to bet they would be just as big there as here. Age is by far the number one factor is antler size, followed by genetics and quality of feed. That bull killed on the Book Cliffs came from a 'lesser' unit, so why was he so huge? He was able to survive to the age of maximum antler potential. His genetics didn't improve as he got older, but his antlers got bigger, because he got older.

PRO

 

[PleaseDear]

I had 3-4 buds really thinking about turning their LE bull tags in with the lack of rain and fuel cost going up so fast!

After chatting with Bart-PRO the other night... I think I have them talked into waiting unitl mid- July or early August before they make a decision...atleast a late July scouting trip to see the 'growth' as summer continues..fuel cost..no help there!

Robb

 

[proutdoors]

Robb, if any of your buddies have a Dutton archery tag, tell them to turn it back in, then maybe I can be the lucky SOB that gets the tag. Yeah baby!

PRO

 

[maddglasser]

Ya know thats kinda funny cause last year there were 2 bulls killed in az archery over 400. Also I have been guiding for 20 yrs and all I can say A drought year does, is produce MANY broke bulls. When you can say you have the experience killing and SCORING bulls I will believe your scores. If the drought dictated wether a bull was a small 360 or a huge 420+ the world record would have been broke in Penn. 10% is made up, show me your stats, not just pics of what may be 400 or just unfounded thoughts. How long have you made your living scoring and killing RECORD book elk? If it is long, you will reconsider your comments! It is these unfounded thoughts that lead to urban legends.

 

[CraigS]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-07 AT 04:40PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-07 AT 04:36?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-07 AT 04:33?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-07 AT 04:30?PM (MST)

I would like to see a scientific study done on antler growth...

I believe a lot of things would come out but most don't care.

Canon, you have some valid points! I saw pics of an Arizona bull that grossed 389 last year (probably the same bull)& I also heard of two bulls that supposedly reached 400" coming out of a unit on the East side and I have yet to see a pic of either of the two but that does not mean much.

All I know is if the western/central part of Arizona is dry during a certain time period (Jan-May), the bulls lose a lot of inches. How many inches I am not sure but that is the gospel. Monsoon moisture comes way to late (July) to help antler growth, hell most big bulls are done growing by the beginning or mid July. Bulls in this part of Arizona typically see lost inches in there back ends on drought years (again talking Jan-May). FYI: Arizona bulls need their fat reserves to be high in order to reach their genetic potential.

Maddglasser,

I have also heard that bulls get busted up a ton more during drought years & I believe this is true. J. Epperson (antler buyer/finder) can blow your mind when he talks about antlers & the differences he sees from year to year. They definitely seem to lose some mass or density.
Oh, yeh Penn. is starting to grow some big elk but for some reason our feed holds alot of nutrients and minerals that help our bulls reach their genetic potential, when we get the moisture. (ie: 2003,2005)

I think this year will be a mirror image of last year in Arizona. Now this is my opinion but I will put some money on it!

Goodluck to all!

 

[billythekid]

>Ya know thats kinda funny cause
>last year there were 2
>bulls killed in az archery
>over 400. Also I have
>been guiding for 20 yrs
>and all I can say
>A drought year does, is
>produce MANY broke bulls. When
>you can say you have
>the experience killing and SCORING
>bulls I will believe your
>scores. If the drought dictated
>wether a bull was a
>small 360 or a huge
>420+ the world record would
>have been broke in Penn.
>10% is made up, show
>me your stats, not just
>pics of what may be
>400 or just unfounded thoughts.
>How long have you made
>your living scoring and killing
>RECORD book elk? If it
>is long, you will reconsider
>your comments! It is these
>unfounded thoughts that lead to
>urban legends.

cannon and craig are right on this topic. Madglasser you are probably refering to bulls that were killed on the eastern side of the state like 23, 3c, or 1. They usually aren't effected by the drought as much as the north western units 7,8,9,10. If you have been guiding for 20 yrs. and have not noticed the affect of drought on horn growth I don't know what to say. We are not complaining, just stating the facts. Do you have 3 or more yrs. worth of pics of the same bull (mature bulls i.e. 350+, on a good yr. i.e. 03,05)? We do, and can notice a big change in overall antler development (total inches boone and crocket or pope and young) from drought yr. to good precip yr.
Yes the bulls break their horns more because the loose horn density as well as length and mass. Not all bulls loose 10 %, some more and others less. But as a general rule 10% is accurate on a bad drought yr. This yr. they might not loose 10% growth but they will not reach full potential in the units North and West of Flag, unless, they are one of the bulls that has found someones barn, yard, or flower bed to feed in all spring long, and there are a fair share of these bulls. This is an interesting topic and I don't think most people care enough to really look into it. However, if you do care or are interested enough to learn a little, pay attention to bulls and their growth and you will see. And yes, it is hard to tell if a bull should be 250 or 225 depending on drought. Much easier 400 to 360.

 

[billythekid]

cannon and craig are right on this topic. Madglasser you are probably refering to bulls that were killed on the eastern side of the state like 23, 3c, or 1. They usually aren't effected by the drought as much as the north western units 7,8,9,10. If you have been guiding for 20 yrs. and have not noticed the affect of drought on horn growth I don't know what to say. We are not complaining, just stating the facts. Do you have 3 or more yrs. worth of pics of the same bull (mature bulls i.e. 350+, on a good yr. i.e. 03,05)? We do, and can notice a big change in overall antler development (total inches boone and crocket or pope and young) from drought yr. to good precip yr.
Yes the bulls break their horns more because the loose horn density as well as length and mass. Not all bulls loose 10 %, some more and others less. But as a general rule 10% is accurate on a bad drought yr. This yr. they might not loose 10% growth but they will not reach full potential in the units North and West of Flag, unless, they are one of the bulls that has found someones barn, yard, or flower bed to feed in all spring long, and there are a fair share of these bulls. This is an interesting topic and I don't think most people care enough to really look into it. However, if you do care or are interested enough to learn a little, pay attention to bulls and their growth and you will see. And yes, it is hard to tell if a bull should be 250 or 225 depending on drought. Much easier 400 to 360.

 

[canon]

Yeah 2 bulls over 400, nothing like gets killed on a normal year, and those bulls were rim bulls not flatland bulls.... When i say 10%, that is a general number, but can vary. It is not an exact science. But to say that the antlers grow to what they should is ridiculous. Anyone who spends enough time and lives in elk country knows this, guides that show up to guide many times dont notice a difference, especially when they are hunting 350 and under bulls and dont live in the area year round to watch them. I have lived in elk country my entire life and have watched and learned from the best of them...

 

[maddglasser]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-07 AT 06:35PM (MST)[p]Hey it is your story .... tell it like you want you want to. Just remember a true tape don't lie! We have had some great yrs in AZ but NOTHING has beat Alonzo Winters bull!
P.S. how many have you killed OVER 400?

 

[canon]

>LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-07
>AT 06:35?PM (MST)
>
>Hey it is your story ....
>tell it like you want
>you want to. Just remember
>a true tape don't lie!
>We have had some great
>yrs in AZ but NOTHING
>has beat Alonzo Winters bull!
>
>P.S. how many have you killed
>OVER 400?

You dont have to tell me a true tape dont lie, never killed one over 400 someday maybe, but i have video and pics and sheds that tell the story of plenty of them, and been involved on kills of several over 400...

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Silentstalker is right on the money. All of the studies that I have read come to the conclusion that it is age and access to nutrients, specifically minerals, that contribute the most to antler growth. Of course you can't have the nutrients unless you have the water to grow them, so water is huge too. Here are a couple of studies that were pretty easy to read and informative. Google antler growth and you will find a ton of them. Most of them refer to whitetail deer but they are all basically the same conclusion and apply to elk and mule deer as well.

http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=15

http://www.huntingpa.com/deer_nutrition.html

It's always an adventure!!!

 

[canon]

>Silentstalker is right on the money.
> All of the studies
>that I have read come
>to the conclusion that it
>is age and access to
>nutrients, specifically minerals, that contribute
>the most to antler growth.
> Of course you can't
>have the nutrients unless you
>have the water to grow
>them, so water is huge
>too. Here are a
>couple of studies that were
>pretty easy to read and
>informative. Google antler growth
>and you will find a
>ton of them. Most
>of them refer to whitetail
>deer but they are all
>basically the same conclusion and
>apply to elk and mule
>deer as well.
>
>http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=15
>
>http://www.huntingpa.com/deer_nutrition.html
>
>It's always an adventure!!!

Thanks for the info

"Bucks must live long enough to reach physical maturity and have access to good nutrition to achieve maximum antler growth. These are undisputed facts...."
Having good nutrition has a lot to do with precipitation to provide it. Hard for plants to grow without water.

 

[bigbulls1]

there is actually a big difference between antler growth in elk and in deer. there have been studies on elk antler growth vs. age, nutrition, and genetics. first let me say that elk genetics do vary within the herds, but not much from region to region. What I mean is, elk in colorado do have similar genetics to elk in utah and arizona, but it varies with individual animals in the herd. remember that the genes for antler growth are in all elk, bulls and cows, of all ages. you CAN NOT KILL OFF GENETICS. With that being said, good genetics comes with a good age class of bulls within the herd. If the herd starts to see a higher number of 6yr old and older bulls, you will start to see the average bull get bigger.

the fact is that age is the most important, then food and water, then genetics. good genetics will come with a good age class in the herd.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Although there is a difference in growth, the same principles apply to both deer and elk. The antlers are made up of the same matter (i.e. calcium, phosphorous, & water) and require the same types of nutrients to grow. Elk obviously require more because they are bigger animals with bigger antlers. Studies have also backed up the statements here that say "you can't kill off genetics". This is true. The same genetics exist in Colorado that exist in Utah. Example; Unit 10 in Colorado is on the Utah/Colorado border. Unit 5 in Colorado is approximately 100 miles from Unit 10. Unit 10 has some great bulls in it and is a LE unit. Not uncommon to kill a bull over the 350 mark. Unit 5 has a lot of elk in it but in the many years I guided over there we killed one bull that hit the 350 mark. The rest were lucky to go over the 300 mark. The average age of bulls harvested on Unit 10 is 6-7 years old. The average age of bulls harvested on Unit 5 is 3 years old. The genetics are there if they are allowed to grow. Add the nutrients to the equation and you have supperior antler growth.


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[cabinfever]

AZ402 nailed it. Genetics, age, and feed in that order. I'm not a pro when it comes to elk antler growth but one thing I know for sure is this. Most mule deer bucks will never have the genetic make up to grow big antlers. I believe this is true with elk, only I think we have more big elk antler genetics floating around than we do big buck genetics. You can have a ten year old buck eat'n oats out of a bucket, but without the big antler genetics you've got an average buck.

Mike

 

[proutdoors]

I believe awholelotabull is dead-on. The genetics are there, not in every buck/bull, but in the herd. Most mule deer don't live long enough to 'show' the genetics they carry. Same for elk in most states. Utah bulls get bigger every year, not because the genetics are getting better, but because the average harvest age increases every year. Older bulls means bigger bulls. If areas in Colorado where it is over-the-counter, had bulls the AVERAGED 8 years old, I am willing to bet a good percentage of them would be Booners. Since most of them are killed before the age of five, very few 300 class bulls percentage wise are killed on most areas of Colorado. It is their age, not their genetics that keep them from being record class animals.

Droughts will affect antler growth in some areas more than others. I am NOT concerned by the drought here in Utah for this year. If the drought stays for a few years, then I believe it will affect antler growth, just not this year based on ONE year of drought. JMHO

PRO

 

[AZDuke2500]

Maddglasser.

You sound like a big baby. "I guess nobody cares"
I admire the fact that you care about spikes and rag horns. Remind me to never use you as a guide. I bet that is all your clients kill-spikes and rag horns.

"Would a spike loose 30-40 " Yes it could and them it would be called a cow. You have been guiding for 20 years. Where and for what? Maybe you should retire. Maybe join PETA.

Alonso Winters bull was killed in 1968. Less hunter and better mositure. You do not need to be the head cashier at walmart to realize that.

I bet there were bigger bulls in 1968 that were never killed. People used to meat hunt back in thoughs days.

Hey Maddglasser the meat taste better then the antlers anyways.

 

[maddglasser]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-11-07 AT 04:27PM (MST)[p]Your ignorant- remind me to never book you!
FYI I have never killed a spike or cow and don't really care what meat taste's best. You sure know a lot about wal-mart.
I bet all my hunters are unhappy also. But I am still in bussiness- can't be to many cows and spikes but with 4 bulls over 400 and 7 over 370 I can see why I do this for a living and you don't! Did you have to brainstorm that comment with a crayon and have your mommy proof read it first?

 

[AZDuke2500]

Big words for a high school drop out. Hey, their is nothing wrong with working at walmart as greeter during the off season to pay the bills. I can see that you are in BUSSINESS instead of business. (Learn how the spell Bussiness MAN) I do know alot about walwart. It is a great place to shop. I admire the fact that you are proud of what a bull weighs instead of inches. But incase you are claiming inches i would like to see pictures to prove it.

It is ok that you still live with your mommy to paid the bills.

I did not know that Butt Pirates were guides. I am glad that you decide to come out of the closet.

 

[maddglasser]

I bet the crayon is green! It is ok that you work at the cheveron store. Also, a lot is 2 words, there cyber ninja.
MMA needs a few more mental giants like yourself, it is good for the sport. You buddy, make people not want to visit these sites. This is about hunting-NOT your personal comings out with your undesirable life. This is a great chance for you to be the BIG MAN! Now with all that said shut up before you get embarrASSed.

Like I said cows and spikes!

 

[ClorideRUS]

Gotta throw my two bits in here. My experience has been... genetics determine the size of the antler but feed & water make a huge difference in 'mass'. I've picked up antlers that looked huge but were as lite as balsa wood, by the same token I've had busted up crap that weighed up nicely. Personal opinion.... the weight of the antler depends on the water year.. not necessarily the size!

RUS

 

[junior]

It sure doesn't take a big increase in mass to up the score on any animal!

 

[maddglasser]

No it does not, but 40 inches of mass? I can agree with 1.5-2 inches on each measurement and that would come to around 15 total inches. I agree they have to have moisture, even just to live but 10% is just way to much in my opinoin. But everyone is intitled to their opinion as well.

 

[junior]

Its no debate as far as what a good wet year will do....but how much is a different story....the guy that lives in a dry area to start with, and has a keen eye to notice, is one to ask, and I doubt he could tell you exactly...Its a guess...Even the guy who killed a 400" bull during a drought...did the bull live in a river bed all summer...did he stay at 10,000' all summer...what sparked his growth?...no answer is cut and dry.

Now I would guess an elk could gain alot when you add two good wet years in a row versus just one year after a long term drought.

Also I will say this as a fact...before irrigation/food plots around my area....a 150" whitetail was unheard of...20 years ago.....Now I hear about 170" deer quite often...so who knows?

I will say if you give me an elk tag during a drought, I am going hunting reguardless! Lets not worry about the small stuff, lifes to short!

 

[AZDuke2500]

I am sad that you hunt in high fence. No wonder you do not see that drought effects antler growth.

Cyber Ninja, i like that. Thx.

Some people just use up oxygen.

Ever heard of typo. You Buddy(is that English)

Stop wasting my time with your 1970's pictures.

The question is what did your clients kill last year?

 

[hunter1]

i have to agree with madglasser on this. it dosent matter how much rain you get now for antler growth and the bulls here in az are going to be great i have already been watching them grow and boy are they growing one poor 5.5 year old bull hit by a truck had front tines in excess of 20 inches 2 weeks ago and the mass mesurement between g1 and g2 was over 11 inches. arizona had the rain and snow late last year so the bulls were very healthy going into the growing season the first thing that a bull depends on is to be fat and healthy then the rest of his intake of feed is put to horn growth, and yes in drought years it is more comon for bulls to be all broke up. around flagstaff the feed is great right now, i can vouch for madglasser on his sucess as a guide for elk and mule deer he is no slouch. he has taken some monster desert bucks and some awsome bulls.

 

[maddglasser]

There are no high fences in AZ. The earliest photo I showed was 2000. Last year we killed a 361 AZ archery and a 369 muzzle in the Gila. I hunt AZ, all the units, and the Gila in NM. But I will take what you said as a compliment. Here is another great bull-from AZ unit 10 in a drought year and a great AZ archery bull.

let me know if you want some more cows and spikes!

 

[CraigS]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-12-07 AT 08:00PM (MST)[p]One last comment...Age, Genetics & Feed! All these are factors, if you don't think they are you are kidding yourself!

This topic has been beat to death & I am not going to debate this anymore, as some have educated guesses and others are just plain guessing!

Have fun giving your opinions!!!

Craig Steele

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-12-07 AT 11:07PM (MST)[p]There is plenty of evidence based research on antler growth. Don't think for a minute all those elk and deer farms don't read and follow these studies on what minerals and how much of them produce bigger antlers. We all know that big antlers translate into big money. The information is out there is you want to read and attempt to understand it. A friend of mine used to be a wildlife biologist in the Kansas area and he retired and went to work for one of the big deer feed companies. His job was just to monitor health and horn growth of the male population on this ranch where they produce the feed. I talked to him this morning and he told me that undoubtedly the combination of age and the right amount of nutrition will produce big antlers 100% of the time. They have even captured bucks from populations where they thought the gene pool was a little on the small side. Eventually these bucks produced some book racks. His theory on this was, the genetics were there as well as the age, but the right minerals needed to produce big racks was short in supply in the area where these bucks came from. Soil samples later proved his theory correct.

It's always an adventure!!!

 

[Drymountain]

Hay every body. Of you guys out in the woods this early, how big of bulls are you seeing. We went up this morning and seen 21 bulls and we seen one 6 point, he had all his points. Its pretty dang early for that. He was with 5 other bulls and they were only out past their third point. Why do you guys think that one bull is grown out so far this early. Bobcat he is up above your place.

 

[AZDuke2500]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-07 AT 10:12AM (MST)[p]drymountain

I think you had too many beers.

 

[Drymountain]

I do not bull .... I seen what I seen. Lots of bulls growing good right now. The cows are having their calfs right now to. We seen lots of brand new young ones. Its going to be a good year again. I did see that 6 pointer he had all his points. Maybe he will even get more points. Well keep an eye on him. We had no whiskey to cloud our view.