Mule Deer Management

[wildlifebiologist]

I have an open ended question that I would like to pose to the members and readers of this forum. My question to all of you is: what is/are the greatest concerns posed to mule deer management? I ask this question, due to the number of game & fish department bashing posts, that I have observed in this forum, and the sense that many of you feel very strongly towards the issues. First of all, I am not a spokesman for the different state game agencies, just a concerned hunter, biologist, and conservationist. My goal of this post is to prompt a good disscusion of the problems/issues of mule deer management, and your concerns as hunters.

Chad

 

[quickdrawkinker]

Great post, your absolutley right--there are plenty of people who complain about how things are being done, but you hardly ever hear of anyone posting there thoughts on what changes need to be made for fear of being bashed themselves. Since I am not one to give a damn if someone doesn't agree with me...here goes--
First of all, (in my state of Utah)As bad as I hate to be restricted to smaller hunting areas--ultimately they need to break the state into a bunch of smaller units and issue tags based on the deer numbers in each area and maybe even alternate closing areas every couple of years so that the units can build up the population of mature bucks. It is a proven fact (besides being obvious) that when immature bucks are doing the majority of the breeding that the number of fawns that are produced each year decreases significantly. If a system like this was ever implemented I wouldn't be opposed to the F&G doubling the price of a tag and let those that draw a premit to hunt all three hunts. Lets face it, the bowhunters never had any pressure until it became the only option for people who didn't draw a rifle tag. This is another issue that bothers me is that anyone who doesn't draw a rifle tag can become a bowhunter the night before the bowhunt starts and hunt statewide! The F&G has simply remedied one problem (people pissed off because they didn't draw a tag) by creating another one (thousands of people end up in the southern region that haven't got a clue how to bow hunt, they've practiced long enough to feel comfortable winging arrows out of the back of a truck, who knows how many deer walk away wounded, never to be recovered, not even knowing that they hit them sometimes). It's giving the rest of us-who actually prepare year round for the hunt-a bad name. Which is why I think anyone who is issued an archery tag should have to pass an ethics class as well as an accuracy test, granted that fur is harder to hit than rubber, but if your not accurate with rubber you sure as hell aren't with fur! Just my opinion, may only be worth what you paid for it.

 

[Bura Nut]

If I understand your question it is "what are the greatest issues facing Mule deer management"......give I understand you correctly, the question is multifaceted depending on who you ask. For me the answer lies in how do we generate more deer and older age class deer. In some states it could boil down to the loss of winter range, predators out of control, overharvest, drought etc..... and for some states it could be a combination. In addition to this, some states have specific unit problems like the Kaibab. This question is too open ended for me to answer specifically. I know that as a sportsman here in AZ, I personally think the Kaibab game managers have not utilized appropriate techniques in ananlyzing population numbers and range utilization. In my mind, because of bad data the game managers are increasing harvest quotas when we should not harvest any does but rather we should transplant those does to the strip and aggressively pursue predators...... Just my two cents......Allen Taylor......

 

[wildlifebiologist]

Allen,

Sorry for posting a very broad sense question, but in a sense very broad questions are important to evaluate the feelings and or concerns of a very diverse group of people we have reading/posting on this forum. You pose a very interesting question on proper population monitoring techniques. I have a question for you. What techniques are being utilized on the Kaibab unit, what are the biases associated with the implementation of those techniques, and what other techniques do you think could be utilized to formulate a baseline population and ecological data to help managers make effective and appropriate descisions?

Chad Sexton

Wildlife Management-----
An Art Interwoven in Science

 

[Ant]

I think in California, better predator management is key. The growing lion populations are not helping to increase an already small deer herd. Also I think limiting some areas to less recreation in general for example off roading would help preserve habitat. Also better fire control and habitat management is obvious after last years devastating fires.

 

[nvmuley]

Chad,
I believe that predator management has to be the #1 reason for the decline of our mule deer herds. In NV our deer herd in less than half what is was in 1988. (1988 est 251,326 and in 2002 est 108,000) With the same climatic conditions our elk herds and feral horse populations are doing great! I believe due to the size of these animals they are much less susceptable to predation once the young of the year reach a certain size. Sure, some local areas have winter range loss and other issues to deal with but the large and growing predator population seems to be the common link. I have looked at graphs comparing predator kills over the last several decades (both ADC, private trappers and lion hunters) and the data (at least to me) seems to point right to the high predator populations we currently have. The lion population in the areas I am familiar with, has increased 12 fold, that's a lot! This is based on my own observation of tracks I have seen. In my county, our lion kill has gone from 8 consecutive years of 0 take (1980 to 1987) to 22 lions in 2004. And this in not making a dent in the current population.
Sure, drought, cheat grass, grazing competition, etc all play some role, but I believe minor roles. Give the mule deer credit for being a survivor when it comes to adapting to natural range conditions. But if they are being eaten, either as fawns or adults, none of the rest really matters. When you start out with almost 200 fawns born per 100 does each year and end up with only 25-35 the following spring after their first winter you will never have increasing deer herds to manage. We seem to just be watching them decline.
You asked!
Steve
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Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.

 

[GJM]

Ok here is my nickles worth! I also live in NV have hunted all my life, the problem used to be cats and hard winters, now i beleive that in the last several yrs that the coyote population has severely depleted the deer heards along with the drought and the intense heat in the summers they have to stay close to water and water 2 times a day... The Dept.of Wildlife has to get a handle on these dogs, since they banned 1040 it has been out of control, in NV we have to pay a $3.00 predator fee when applying for tags, I wonder how it is used, maybe it would be best spent on a bounty system, or another dog plane for the ADC with a good gunner. As for the lions in my county heck the hunters can't even get a good tom anymore they are hunted out. Another thing that gets me going is the eagles, I personally think that they have genetically become bigger and more agressive, not a problem for them to jerk down a fawn, why eat jack rabbit when you can have venison. Here anymore there is one on every other power pole and i would bet that most of them weigh 20lbs or more. There has not been many catastrophic fires here so they can't blame that on the declining populations. Back when i was a kid with my father in the late fall hunt it was nothing to see 500 hd a day trailing to their winter feeding grounds in northern White Pine Co. Today there is nomore deer run, things called interstate hi-ways and urban sprawl put a halt to that...and now for the last culprit, yuppers, the 4x4 atv, now there is a road or trail in every canyon, draw or ridgetop. The Mulies have nowhere to hide or run to so the deer are changing there ways and becoming flatlanders, they can hide in the pinions and junipers the elk control the moutain tops now. Kill the yoties and the deer will come back along with the sagehen, why your at it bust a few of those ravens too! just my nickles worth! Thanks

 

[Bura Nut]

Chad, what I think isnt important but rather what the group our Arizona Deer Associan hired finds and thinks will. This is a trusted industry specific organization that works with AZGFD now. They are checking the current techniques and performing the study to submit to the commission. I look forward to actual evaluation of the the existing techniques to see how our internal information compares. Hopefully the end result is an elimination of doe hunting on the Kaibab and a healthy stable herd that can be used for transplants........ Allen Taylor......

 

[Tusker]

I am not a biologist. However here is what I think, in Idaho:
Elk, over hunting, predators, doe harvesting. Not necessarily in that order. Also, do I dare say poor management for mature bucks? I once heard a F&G biologist here say that deer "are just looking for a reason to die." I do not think that the Idaho F&G rate big bucks very high on their "list of things to do."

 

[Bob D.]

One thing many hunters don't want to admit is we are part of the problem. Many call it poor management by the wildlife departments, but what that really means is there are too many hunters, killing too many deer. Sure it is the wildlife departments that have the ability to control the number of hunters, but their problem is they have to try to keep everybody happy, and that can't be easy. If they try to decrease the number of tags, most hunters will complain, because everybody wants to hunt every year. Those same hunters will complain if the state proposes an increase in the price of a deer tag. The wildlife departments just can't win. People talk about 3 or 4 point minimums and/or not killing any does. All minimum point restrictions do is put more pressure on the older bucks, and killing only bucks and no does will screw up buck to doe ratios. The other factor that is more important than killing too many deer, or actually just about any other factor, is habitat. There is a lot of area that used to be good mule deer habitat that is no longer. Some of the reasons for this are a lack of fires, noxious weeds, overgrazing by cattle, and a loss of winter range due to development. Habitat should be the #1 concern for the wildlife departments. But of course they don't have the money to do everything they would like to do. So I say increase deer tags by at least double, decrease the number of tags in some areas, let the fires burn, and spend as much money as possible buying up critical mule deer winter range. Predators are a prolbem too, but without habitat the deer don't have a chance, predators or not.

 

[SMELLYBUCK]

I have the same complaints with Quickdrawkinker about the archery hunting, and I think that Nvmuley has some great thoughts on predators. I look at the south side of Pine Valley Mountain by St. George, Utah. My father claims that deer used to be killed by the truckload in the 60's from that area. This place mysteriously is poor hunting now. What is interesting is that it was a special draw area for most of the 80's & 90's and had little deer hunting pressure. That rules out argument that too much hunting has killed off the deer. There is very little housing development in the good deer habitat which defeats the "urban sprawl" argument. Winters are mild and winter kill is minimal. That leaves the predator theory wide open in my mind. There were once full-time cougar hunters that hunted the area. Now cougar hunting is very restricted. Over the past 10 yrs. Utah has seen a cut in tags, more management areas, a huge increase in tag prices, a switch to "choose your hunt" and started a dedicated hunter program that supposedly helps with big game habitat. This seems like the right recipe for increasing a deer population, but it has not remotely worked.

 

[30inchbucks]

Chad,
If you're looking for ideas for management go back to my post on the decline of trophy mule deer and there are over 230 posts on the subject. Smellybuck is talking about an area called Browse which is an area I know extremely well. My grandpa hunted that area back in the 60's and 70's taking some huge bucks. You should see his trophy room. Two of his bucks are huge non-typicals that measure 40+ inches. Those are the kind of bucks that used to roam there. I agree with the predator issue. Mountain lions have been a major problem in the area. Another predator though has been man!! Poaching was a contributing factor also in the downfall of Browse. Hunters that were lucky enough to draw tags during the 80's also took more than their 1 allotted buck. Everyone needs to take a good long look in the mirror and truly ask yourselves how can I help improve deer hunting in Utah. Going out opening day and shooting the first buck you see and then dragging it home untagged in hopes of a continued hunt is obviously not working!!! The 60's and 70's are over but it seems hunting techniques like failure to tag a deer or even party hunting have been passed down from generation to generation. That nonsense needs to stop!! Todays deer are pressured all year long from all angles. Horn hunters on winter ranges is an example. How many shed horn hunters were there in the 60's? I'll take a guess that there were not very many! Increased technology along with hunter access is another contributing factor. Examples include, 3-wheelers, 4-wheelers, parachute planes, high powered scopes on flatter shooting rifles, compound bows with sights and carbon arrows, in-line muzzleloaders, rangefinders, and on and on etc. Don't get me wrong I'm a user of some of these fine technological advances, but unethically using them to take and find animals is becoming more and more of a problem. When is enough going to be enough? That is a question we also need to ask ourselves. Do limits need to be set? and restrictions and heavy fines put in place? A successful hunt isn't always about killing an animal. It's about the great experience in the great outdoors and stories about the past or the one's that got away. You don't have to harvest an animal on every trip. In my opinion, the number one thing we need in order to improve our deer herd here in Utah is more ethic-minded Sportsmen. If everyone truly cared, taught their kids respect for nature and wildlife, things would definately improve. After that we need to focus on predators, habitat, taller fences and crossings along highways in migration areas to prevent road kill, tag numbers (97,000 tags is way too many considering our drought conditions), fawn survival rates, and on and on etc. etc. Just some thoughts

 

[nvmuley]

There are so many very good points brought out in this post.
Hunters and game departments ultimately control many factors dealing with the type of hunt we experience in the field. (We have some control over buck/doe ratios which leads to the number of older bucks in the herd, the number of hunters in the field, the season dates, etc.) A primary assumption for deer herd management is that hunters really do not affect the overall deer population. While some bucks are killed during hunting seasons, enough are left to breed all the does. Thus insuring the overall growth and health of the herd. Does are only hunted when the habitat reaches maximum carrying capacity or in isolated agriculture damage complaint cases. Still I see our deer herds declining in areas really not affected by habitat destruction. For the most part, the country I'm referring to has not really changed that much in the last four decades, with the exception of predator numbers. Public land deer seem to be really taking a hit. I have a friend that found the remains of 7 deer in one small area this past winter with lion tracks (female and cubs) all over. Some states have a lot of private land and large ranchs.(Parts of WY and MT come to mind.) Because of livestock predation and the $value of biggame, a lot of predator control occurs on these lands. Usually done by private contractors paid by sheep and cattle associations. The results speak for themselves. Some tribal lands that are known for their large bucks and high dollar tags, also believe in controlling predator numbers. Go to a search engine (I used google) and type in mule deer, mountain lions, predators and look at the research papers that come up. Some very interesting reading if you have the time. We issue a lot of special youth tags in NV, realizing they are our future, the continuation of our hunting heritage. In 1988 we issued 51,011 deer tags. In 2002 we issued 17,484 tags. That's a lot of "lost" hunters in 14 years!

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Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.

 

[Bura Nut]

NVmuley, good response. In what you wrote you mentioned "does are only hunted when the habitat reaches maximum carrying capacity or in isolated agriculture damage complaint cases." This of course would make sense to everyone. What we are running into here in AZ is how the AZGFD is coming up with their population numbers and the technique they use for measuring habitat forage. As most hunters here know: hunters are out in the actual field more often and traverse the habitat more than an employee of a game department who is on their route to check food plots. Currently their is no actual field verification of population numbers and because of this we are really having a hard time with a tag allotment of 1500 does on the Kaibab when we think their population estimate and range utilization numbers are wrong. There should be alot more deer on the Kaibab and we should not harvest any does period. We are funding a study by a nationally recognized group that will do population estimates and recommendations on how AZGFD can change their methods to match currently accepted techniques that are being used by various Western states successfully. Hopefully through all of this, we can once again see the numbers of deer and the habitat thriving on the Kaibab..... Thanks, Allen Taylor......

 

[rocketman]

I agree with everything in the above two posts. Predator
control and habitat are the 2 factors in the decline of our deer
Here in SW Colo deer numbers are way down over the last 20
years and elk numbers are way up. Predators take a large
part of the deer and very very few of our elk. Suppression
of fire usually benefits elk and not deer habitat. I do not
see our deer coming back strong here in Sw Colo in the future.
We have had 8 mild winters in a row (drought effects us less
here) and deer numbers still are declining.

 

[nvmuley]

Sure sounds like a lot more guys are getting active in these issues. That's what it takes to facilitate change, active participation. Bura, I'm not familiar with the different models/programs used to estimate populations. I would hope that research is on-going to test and develope the most accurate programs possible. Deer are fairly easy to count from helicoptors when they are on their winter ranges. On smaller test areas this could be used to validate population estimates derived from the population models. I think it's great your group is funding this population study since everything seems to run on crunched numbers now a days. I personally agree with your view on doe hunting for the short term. There is classic example of mule deer management dealing with the Kaibab deer herd. It is taught (or used to be) to most students majoring in wildlife management. Maybe the old timers understood these relationships better than we give them credit for.
gotta run for now!
Steve

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Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.

 

[Bura Nut]

I am definitely not any biologist, just know what we are trying to do in AZ. This original post was from Wildlifebiologist and I am curious why he/she is not responding. Basically I felt his post was to let us all know that we dont know about biology and he wanted intelligent responses back from us to see what we knew. Again, I dont know how to run game management models, thats why we are hiring a professional organization to do it. I cant believe AZGFD is using the techniques and models they are when other more accurate and currently in use techniques are available. That is the foundation of our issue. Right now the Kaibab deer population numbers are not and have not been field verified. we are going to pin down a hard number by field verification so everyone knows how many deer the whole Model is based on. Then we increase predator harvests, maintain/enhance forage and increase the herd population hopefully through eliminated doe harvests and current game management practices.......... Allen Taylor......

 

[wildlifebiologist]

I would just like to start by thanking all of you that have replied to this post. It has been interesting to see your first hand view points on various mule deer herds from throughout the west. To reply to Mr. Taylor, Yes I am a biologist, but it is not my point to tell all of you how much I know about ecosystems and their interactions and degrade everyone else about their limited knowledge. I believe that everyone that is a hunter or concerned about our natural resources knows quite a bit about basic biology and the workings of ecosystems in their area.
A hat off to all the concerned sportsman that have an interest in their game populations!.

One major point of interest here is how many of you believe that their deer herds are being influenced by predation. Predation is a very major component in the management of many game populations. One interesting note to think about is:
Are ecosystems naturally structured from the top down (predator driven) or bottom up (habitat driven). This is a very interesting question posed by various biologists around the country. Is it that simple? Some biologist will tell you yes, or no. Is it? I don't have the answer to that, but can tell you there are varying factors on every population that amount to more than predation and habitat loss. In my opinion this is one of the greatest questions to be answered in wildlife biology in the next few years.

Mr. Taylor, your posts have been the most specific in reference to population measurement methods and models in which you believe are ineffective in Arizona, you also state there are new and better models and methods. If you know what models or methods are being used and are being proposed I would just like to know more about them.
I would just like to thank the rest of you for your responses once again.

Chad Sexton

 

[nvmuley]

Hi again Everyone,
What good timing. I just came across this on the AZ website:

http://www.gf.state.az.us/nrm/wildlife_news.html#3

It deals with predators and muledeer in a longterm study comparing fawn survival and deer populations inside a predator proof enclosure to the outside mule deer population. The results are surprising a lot of biologists and punching holes in the prevailing belief that habitat conditions are the primary controlling factor on deer populations. Despite the continuing longterm drought, deer population densities inside the enclosure are 10 times higher than those outside the enclosure and rivaling those of whitetail deer of the SE United States. All while deer populations outside the enclosure are plummeting.
If I pasted the link correctly it should take you directly to the news release.
Steve
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Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.

 

[Bura Nut]

Chad, I am trying to be politically correct and not bash the AZGFD. Reason for not bashing is multifaceted but primarily now is the time to work with the game departments as best we can as sportsmen. Our hunters representative group, the Arizona Deer Association has hired a group that is comprised of many experts that will explain their proposed techniques to the Game commissioners and the AZGFD. If all goes well, there will be some positive changes for everyone. I have a report from the group we hired and it is specific on techniques and proceedures. I choose to not put it up here on the public internet until our group, the ADA has met with the commission this next week. We as hunters/outdoorsmen need to make change but hopefully make change working in concert with federal land managers and state agencies. To bash them right now would only put the cause behind. I hope we can see long term deer numbers increase along with the opportunity for more buck tag holders........thanks for your patience....... Allen Taylor......

 

[GJM]

I reckon this has cooled down but I have a few more things to say. Do you all beleive the numbers that game agencies post about the deer populations? I for one don't,not for a minute. The bottom line on this is money, it's a proven fact that they can fudge the numbers for more tags and thus more money. NDOW was busted in NV for that a couple of yrs ago and like the other NV gentleman stated we have gone from 50,000+ to less than 17,000 in a couple of yrs, it's all based on the kill ratio and the buck to doe ratio that they base their hunt quotas on. The buck to doe ratio should be on mature bucks of 4pt or better not milk on your lips 2pts after all the mature bucks are the ones that need to do the breeding to sustain the herds. With the job i have i spend almost every work day of the year in the back country on over 1400 miles of dirt roads around ranches, moutains and desert country, I would venture to say more than any biologist sees in a year. It's not getting any better, where there were 200 hd in their winter range now i only see 50 or less with maybe 1/8 to 1/4 of last yrs fawn crop with them, so what the hell happened to them? PREDATORS that's what happened to them. I used to see maybe 1 coyote a week 5 yrs ago, now I see them in packs of 3 or more, seeing 7 in one pack and at least 3 times a week, fat and sassy eating good. The hunt will never be what it once was, stories that I can tell my grandchildren about the "big bucks", because they damn sure will never see it, I don't care how much they try to manage the Mulies they will never be what they once were. Elk rule the moutains that's where the money is and that's where this state of NV is going and I don't care for what i am seeing, so sorry for the children of the future hunting generations. Too many people and not enough to go around so let's give them tags for more deer than there really are and move the hunt back when it's good and hot and they can still get the big bucks, oops!, or i mean the big money!

 

[txhunter58]

My take on reasons for mule deer decline, in roughly this order:

#1 Predators (coyotes, cougars, etc. and man)

#2 Fire suppression as the main reason for less suitable habitat.

#3 Competition with elk for available food.

#4 Misinformed environmentalists (resulting in more of the 4 legged predators and less fires/tree cutting.

It is definately not politically correct to say it, but I think we have to decide whether we want coyotes, etc to control deer populations or man. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MAN BEING THE MAIN (I DIDN'T SAY ONLY) PREDATOR. If we want to stop all hunting and just let "nature take its course" the natural predators will control the deer for us. However, if we want to hunt, and hunt in significant numbers, then we have to eliminate a sinificant portion of the competition.

And guess what? Elk are next. If they are successful in reintroducing wolves into all their "historical" habitats, the elk numbers will go down too. Just ask any hunter/outfitter near Yellowstone.



txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)