Sonora Bucks Pic's

Blueoak

Blueoak

Very Active Member
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I went on my first hunt to Sonora Mexico last December. I posted the results. Here is the rest of the story. The ranch had a rather high fence. I did not know this untill I got there and had hunted a few days, because it took awhile to get around the whole ranch. I also hunted outside on another ranch.
Anyway, I asked why the fence? He said, to keep poachers and predators out. He said there are bigger bucks outside the fence, however He was working on that. These pictures are part of the solution. Two big bucks. Each with 12 girl friends. After they have thier fawns, he will release the young bucks and mothers. He can control his bucks by horn size when he selects them, but the does are always unknown. Now he has control of the doe stock. This should produce some monsters.
The predators have been eliminated and most of the does have twins. There were good young bucks everywhere, however only two I wanted. I didn't get either of them,but had a great time trying. The fence did not bother me much because the deer have a big advantage with the terrian and dense cover.
He will soon be releasing deer to the bordering ranches because there will be to many inside. This could really improve the herd guality outide. I am going back of course. I will answer questions if you have them or you can just jump all over me. Remember the C4 stuff though!

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I think I'd have a hard time shooting at a buck standing next to a doe with a tag in her ear! Depending on the size of his rack, of course.... ;-)

I didn't even realize they had 'high-fence' hunts in Mexico. I'm not going to jump all over you though. Not my business... :)

Good luck next year!

S.

:)
 
Thanks Stan, the bucks and does in these pictures are seperate and part of the new program. They are the only ones with tags. I don't know if he will remove them after release. Of course I could shoot them either! Fun to look at though.
 
I could not say deer standing next to a fence that big is an advantage for the deer. Thats like backing them into a corner and hitting them below the belt. I do think they would be fun to obsereve, and its not really my buisness, just aying its not for me.
Michael
 
First off, those are great bucks. But it does turn my stomach to see a majestic mule deer penned up (large or small pen) and raised to "produce" trophies.

I would have to say it is our business because high-fence shooting is not viewed in a good light by the majority of hunters and more importantly the majority of the American public. Poll after poll show that hunting free ranging animals is tolerable to most people, but high-fence "shooting" is not. When free-range hunting is lumped into the highfence BS then free-range is tainted.

I imagine Blueoak knew he would get some negative responses to this post, seeing as High-Fence Shooting has been bantered about on here since this site's inception.
 
What all of you, quick to judge fellers don't understand is that these are free-ranging muleys AKA. (Bura) since they can jump higher than the deer you are accustomed to, plus there are clearly no broken glass cemented into the tops of the brick walls.
 
BFE, not to piss you off but I don't think no buck is going to "jump" those fences, and you being one to start crap, I said it was his buisness how he perferd to hunt.
Michael
 
Guys, he is not hunting those deer, the deer are a part of a breeding program on a BIG ranch. The ranch actually borders one of mine. It may or may not be your gig but these bucks really do have a pretty good life all things considered.

Drum
 
How many acres are there on the ranch? It seems odd that there is a fence in all of the pictures. I don't think I would have a problem if it was one of these huge ranches but if it is something like 40 acres like back east then I'd have to say no.
 
Now isn't this fun! These bucks where in 200 meter pens.They will be let out. The fenced ranch is 25,000. They all think the bura can jump the fence, but I don't think so. The deer are also being released out side, to keep ratio's right inside. Hell Drum, your place will get some I'm sure. Why can't we do this in the states! I'm sure we have all hunted places that could use a genentic lift. I still hunt the high country every year but this will give me something to do in January. I am looking for ranches down there right now for myself.
 
It is funny also that the deer prefer to be right up against the fences. Maybe they love the fences and that is why they stay right up against them.

Sorry fellers not my kinda thing, even if they are released or bred or whatever it is they are doing with them. I prefer the wilds.

Shedcrazy
 
If they really want to keep the poachers & stray Mexicans out of the ranch, tell them to go with the broken glass on top of the bricks.

I'm wondering how they catch the does for ear tagging ?
Also, Blueoak when the ranch owner said he was working on the bigger bucks outside the ranch, is that for shooting or capturing ?

Whatever the case, took some large Huevos to post those pictures, with all these expert hunters around here.

BTW, did they let you blow up anything, while you were down there ?
 
Could someone move this to the LIVESTOCK FORUM?

Huntsnoring, do you guide in any fenced areas? To each his own, but we should qualify things.
 
No, I do not guide or run hunts on any ranches that are high fenced. The ranch that Blueoak was hunting on is owned by a cousin of my partner and borders us for about a mile or a little more.

Drummond
 
I have only hunted MX the last two years but from what I have seen and know, most ranches wouldnt put the kind of money it would take for a "high fence". Most of the ranches are pretty big 10 - 100,000 plus acres. This operation looks like the rancher is more hunting oriented and trying to improve genetics and probably is improving food/water situations but if anyone thinks that Mexico is a "high fence" hunting situation in general, they are mistaken. P.S. DILLYWACKER: I hunted on three of Huntsonora's ranches he leases this past January and they all had three wire cattle fences to answer your smartass rhetorical question ............... Thanks, Allen Taylor......
 
So Blue Oak, the whole 25000 is not fenced right? The deer in the pics were in an enclosure how big? 200 meters? They are just there for breeding purposes, then let go on the big ranch??

Just curious if I was reading it all right. Like many said above, I would not fee good at all about "hunting" one that was surrounded by those fences, but am not really against them being penned to breed, then released for genetic enhancement. Its a shaky topic though, might need some more thought on my part (if my opinion mattered:0)
 
Actually the whole 25,000 acres is high fenced. This ranch runs a strict breeding operation for the desert bighorn in Sonora as well. The sheep are bred on the ranch and then transplanted to other areas of the state for relocation. Because of this, they had to fence the whole ranch. There are deer on the ranch however and due to the fact that the fence is already in place they have implemented a similar program for the deer. It is really a neat deal. For anybody that thinks this is not sporting please remember that this ranch is almost 40 sq. miles. It is a very large area and very thick with palo verde, mesquite, palo fiero, roma blanca among other types of native vegatation. Its never easy hunting big mule deer.

Drummond
 
A fence is a fence. Would B&C recognize a buck that was raised inside fences and then released into the wild?? I doubt it.
 
Are you people kidding me?!?! Game and Fish has "Predetor Free Enclosures" all over this country for research purposes. What do you suppose they do with the animals when the denisty's get to high?!?!? That's right Einstiens, they turn them out. And don't think for one second they are letting the biggest and best out either. And who gives a damn what B&C thinks, you can bet your a$$ the good ol' boys that run that little scam have hunted far less ethical ranches than a 40 square mile highwall.......
 
Wow, this is getting intense. Almost as controversial as the following subjects. Ryan Hatch, Kirk Darner, Governors tags, chute planes and ofcourse ATV's. I'am laying 4 to 1 odds this post will be nuked in the very near future. Rick
 
Based on how Drummond summed it up, it sounds as though ranches like this are one of the reasons that big mulies still exist (and likely will for a long time) in Sonora. Seems to me like the overall deer population could only be helped by this. As BOWHNTG stated above, this happens here in the states all the time. Forget the animals in enclosures; How about a good old fashioned game transplant project? These things happen all the time here in the US, and it's all in the name of helping the herds.

As far as the possibility of hunting in a 40 sq. mile enclosure; Assuming these things aren't being fed grain by hand, then I guess I don't have a problem with that either. These bastages are HARD to hunt even if you know they are holed-up in a 1 sq. mile patch of desert! I still stand by my comment about shooting at deer with tags in their ears though! :)

S.

:)
 
I just got back from hunting hogs and thought I would check in. I didn't get any hogs because some let them out! Just kidding. Those dam pigs can be tough sometimes. Drummond mentioned the Sheep operation down there. It was cool. We went on a capture while we were there. They caught 21, but only kept 6 for shipment to another state. The new govenor has made this guy the head of the sheep program for Sonora. The good news about the Govenor is he is totally prohunting and will do more for the hunters down there.

I believe he shoots the does and bucks with darts. I think this is the only operation down there doing this right now {high fence} and it has not had any impact on the outside herds. Yes, they have spent a lot of money. They have put water through out the whole ranch. It is a very interesting project in my eyes. I do not no if I will be hunting this ranch this. I hope so I can still see the two that gave me the slip IN SIDE THE FENCE!!! later guys.
 
One take-away is that a "trophy" head on the wall means nothing. You never know how easy or difficult it was to get. It could have come after hunting hard on public land for ten days. Or it could have been a buck in the above picture that someone pays ten K to kill. In which case it should be called a "big dead deer" not a "trophy".
 
So a forked horn that took weeks to kill and worked your ass off is more of a trophy than a 38" non typical that was taken at first light on opening day?
To each their own!
I've always wondered if the purists yell at their bucks so they can bolt and run to be more "Fair Chase"?
Hunting behind wire is a different issue altogether!
I'm not saying that is what Blueoak did,as is seems like a little different situation.
 
Look at the reasoning for this "Selective" breeding program. It is for big $$$ hunts. This is not to restore a species such as the Desert Bighorns on the ranch or the deer studied in scientific enviornments. This is pure and simple the manipulation of a herd for the end goal of trophy shooting.

Elk ranches, whitetail high fences, and "African" game ranches here in the states are all just operations for shooting animals and calling them trophies. Mule deer have really never had this problem except for a few small operations here or there.

To pass off this "breeding" program as a good thing is somewhat naive. It will possibly increase antler size, but will do little as to the better health of the herd. Again it is just for $$$$$. The guy doing this is only doing it for himself, $$$.

Also saying that the deer "escaped my hunting efforts on a 25,000 acre, high fenced ranch so high fences are ok" is BS. High fence means the animal cannot escape. It effects the herd both outside and inside the confines of the fence.

As for Huntsonora's comments, well I don't believe he would come out and denounce the family that allows him to guide in Sonora, which in turn lets him run in the "mule deer circles". Again the motive seems to be for money rather than the well being of mule deer.
 
I can certainly appreciate your point of view. Rest assured I would not say positive things about anything I did not think was moral or ethical. Also, remember that this is 40 square miles, most people that hunt public ground will concentrate their efforts into smaller areas than that. These are not tame animals nor are they thick as fleas inside the ranch boundary. Its certainly not for everybody and I would not try and push it off on anybody but in my opinion these deer are just as difficult to hunt as any others in Sonora. I know that its easy to think "canned" hunt but that is far from the truth. Again, I do not lease this ranch or have any relations with the landowner directly, my partner is a family member of his and I have nothing to lose or gain by giving you my honest opinion about the ranch. As for the relocation program being all about the money, your half right. The other side of the coin is the benefit to the sheep themselves, as we all know they are a fragile species and anytime you can reintroduce them to native habitat you are doing good. Do these guys make money? Yes but I would imagine it is not as much as you might think.

Drummond
 
I've never really understood those who hunt behind high fences , but different strokes for different folks I guess . Fences should be for livestock not bige game IMHO .
 
The day hunting turns into shooting animals behind a fence I will quit hunting. I do not care if it is 40 Acres or 40 miles.

A person can say it is challenging all they want and I will disagree since it is my opinion.

On 40 miles of fenced in land I am sure there is at least a dirt road every mile or so and only a certain portion of it is continously inhabited by deer. Now that 40 miles is shrank down considerably.
I agree that many areas some of us hunt is considerably smaller but the deer can come and go as they please. One minute they are on public land...the next they can be on private or in a no hunting zone. Without a chance to escape deer in any enclosure can be found eventually and shot.

A trophy is in the eye of the hunter. If he is happy with how he obtained his trophy then he should not care what anyone thinks.
Just do not expect the guys who put in the hard work scouting and hiking around for free ranging mule deer to be as excited with trophies taken in such a manner.
I do not think jealousy really plays a part in how some of us feel about this type of hunting. You could offer some of us a free chance at shooting an animal behind a fence but would probably get no takers.

If it means I may never take a huge monster buck then I can at least know I tried my best without jeopradising my own personal beliefs.
If a large rack on the wall is needed to make one feel like they are a great hunter, all I can say is buy one and make up a story
on how you got it. It will save you a lot of money in the end.

This reply is (not) pointed at Drummond or anyone else but is just my opinion on the subject.
No amount of talk on how high fence hunts are supposedly just as hard will ever convince me that they are as sporting as hunting them without any barriers.
The only reason I responded at all is that I am worried that canned hunts are becoming too common and excepted as a real hunt.
It is becoming an activity where money is more important than the experience.
Best,
Jerry
 
I am not trying to convince anyone. I went down to this ranch without a clue about the fence. Hell I was going on a Sonoran buck hunt! I just told the story. Ya, I was and am conflicted. The horns are out in the shop and they don't even stick out among the rest. I appreciate all your feelings about this subject and the way you stated them. I hope you all get the chance to hunt Sonora your own way someday. When I go back this year I will have the choice to hunt where I want. In or out. You can bet I will tell you all the truth about it when I get back. I am looking forward to my do it yourself Idaho hunt even more. I also don't score my bucks never have never will, don't care about it. My Sonoran buck was the first one and only because the guide records them. Hey at least I did not blow the buck up.
 
Blueoak I appreciate your honesty about the hunt you had.
At least you gave the facts unlike 99% of the guys that choose to hunt in such a manner.
I think many now know to ask if a ranch anyone hunts on is high fenced before we make the decision to hunt.

Do not let replies like mine dictate how you like to hunt or where. Like others have said...To each there own.

I am sure there are many that think you should have kept quite about what you saw. Honesty is never a bad thing.

Good luck in your future hunts.
Best,
Jerry
 
Does anyone hunt on U.S. military property like in Ca. or Wa. areas? Does anyone hunt Oryx on the missle range in NM? my point is there are some areas surrounded for miles with a chain link fence topped with serpantine sp? wire military style that I have hunted and others have. I would not have called what I did "high fenced" hunts even though the actual boundaries had these fences on them. Another thought: If you have not seen the vast property down in Mexico, its hard to imagine what Blueoak saw. there are not communities spread out like in the US there is just thousands upon thousands of miles of flats and on a ranch that is 40,000 plus acres down around Hermosillo, then probably 70 percent or more of the ranch is huntable. You sure dont plan on "deer driving" the property and pushing the bucks up against the fence..............Allen Taylor......
 
Heck if it will help the over-all makeup of a herd with more bucks then what is the problem with what buck breds what doe. I means if you could take 100 does out of the Pauns and have them bred to the biggest buck around,then have them sent back to the Pauns and turned loose you wouldn't want that because the buck was penned raised? Area's I hunt I wish they would bred all the doe to a super buck so all those little one's wouldn't.If I could have 100 does bred to the BURRIS buck then turned back into the wild I would jump at the chance to see it happen.
40 square miles of fence would be a full-time job just driving it to see if it been cut, I'm sure it been cut a few times already.
 
Um, 2_point my man, how far do think a deer goes to "ESCAPE"?!?!
If you ever see one flat tracking on a 5 mile sprint to avoid being taken down you're better off letting him go 'cause something has gone horribly wrong in the ol' command center.
And Knack, just out of curiosity, have you ever been to the Kiabab?!?! you want to see roads, the place is like a checker board. And it may not be a fence, but, there is a small obsticle along the south edge that maybe you have seen or heard of it's called the Grand Canyon. The deer aren't doing double gainers into the Colorado river when they get backed up. Survival instict is an amazing thing fella's. And it certainly is about money, you don't think the boys down at your local G&F office are there for fun do ya?!?! Everything is about money, and you get what you pay for. Unfortunatley lemmings like us can only pay for a general tag, and we hunt general deer.......
And Gator, bravo to you, well said. Now if you can just get the rest of these wingnuts to buy in the deer hunting world would be a better place........
 
Lets just high fence the whole Paunsagant so that the REAL hunters can kill some toads. LOL Comparing the Grand Canyon with a fence?? Are you kidden me? Common give us something better than that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-04 AT 05:50PM (MST)[p]"Double gainers into the Colorado River"- That would be really funny if it did not sound like it was coming from someone making excuses.Did I hit a nerve?
Like I said before those that hunt behind fences can bark at the moon and I still will not call it hunting. It is my right to feel this way and happens to be the majority opinion on the subject.
Does not mean that you cannot hunt in an enclosure. If you like it then do it.

Why is a fence built on a property that deer cannot jump?
ANSWER- To keep them in an area without the risk of them leaving your property. To make them easier to find.

To make sure you get your $8000-$10,000 or more for each deer to help pay for the fence.LOL

To manipulate the breeding by selective shooting.

To improve the odds of shooting a bigger than average buck.

Some hunters do not have the time or do not want to put in the time to learn hunting skills but do have a large wallet....So going on a shoot behind a fence increases the chances of them getting a big buck and hang it on the wall to brag to there buddies about.
Compare it to wanting a special model car. You call the dealer and tell them what you want. A model is found to the customers liking and the customer goes and picks it up.
Not quite as good of odds as buying a car but the model the customer is looking for is on the lot and not in transit somewhere else.
Made up hunting stories are free however.

If it pisses people off that hunt and provide the fenced hunts that I feel this way....I am not sorry and it's my opinion.
Best,
Jerry
 
Jerry,

I can definately see your point and I agree with about 99% of it. I do not like the idea of high fences simply because I feel the majority of people would become deer pimps and do it all for the money and not for the love of the animals themselves. What has not been said is that there are not a crapload of hunters going through that ranch, they run as many hunters on their place as we run on ours and our side is not high fenced. Its more of a tool to keep some of the neighbors that dont have mgmt programs in place from destroying what they have started. These guys have also done some really cool research pertaining to the reproduction and numbers of desert mule deer. Its really a cool operation and I hope that they keep the process up and learn as much as possible for the benefit of all mule deer in Sonora. Like Dave mentioned, the guy that conducts the hunts is the head guy in charge of the sheep program in Sonora, he is not just some guy pimping these animals to make a quick buck. I know and appreciate that this will probably have no effect on what you think of these guys but I did want to point that out.

Drummond
 
Drummond,
I understand what you are saying but the sheep operation should be just that...a sheep operation. Instead we see deer with tags in there ears and a big buck in a cage for breeding.
Gives the impression that money is the #1 motivating factor for these landowners.
To me any research learned from animals behind an enclosure is like trying to learn the real world nature of an animal at a Zoo.
Besides, manipulating breeding is far from the realm of natural unless someone wants to prove that they can manipulate racks on deer and try to push it on others as a reason to start more enlosure facilities.

Fenced in ranches actually have proven to be a disaster to the free ranging wildlife populations. When diseases spread from an enlosure to the wild deer population many of us do have a big problem with it. CWD-ring a bell?
More deer have died from diseases spread this way than any so called research help from deer enclosures.

We can agree to disagree and that is fine with me.
I still think your a good guy Drummond even if we disagree on certain issues. Who doesn't have friends that have different view points?
Best,
Jerry
 
Damn, O.K. Deerlove and knack, you got me but I was running out of view points for the other side. I never have hunted in a "Can" and never will. I have been on hunts (as videographer) that I could never do myself for the simple fact that there are some whack ideas of "hunting" out there. large enclosures like those in Mexico are far more sporting to me than Texas feeders and Tennessee food plots yet every outdoor magazine and television show promotes both. So hey to each own, there are good ideas and bad ideas with good intensions. I can see definite benefits to selective breeding and like you said Knack with CWD running rampant there are also huge problems. Somewhere in there though there is a happy medium....You have to experience failure to enjoy success.......Keep your minds open boys and girls, if we all lived life the same, Friday nights would get awful boring...........

Out
 
I am not opposed to canned hunts, but is this why Mexico has great mule deer hunting? There bred in a farm and then released? People who pay $6,500 for a deer should be pretty pissed off about this! I can now see why mexico mulies can have spreads of 35 inches plus! I've always wanted to go to sonora and try to shoot a 40 inch muley, but hell i might as well go to texas and use that 6500 bucks on some exotics. But I think we should give the sheep operations an applause. it's great to see the Bighorn population increase even though there farm raised and i am sure they are successful in reverting back to being wild. Does anyone know if you can have these sheep sanctuaries in the US to breed more and put them back in the wild?
 
I just got back from Cass country {Vegas}. I see we are still talking. I was thinking, if I fenced my 2600ac blacktail ranch, I still wouldn't be able to kill that big buck i've seen the last two years. I would know he was still there though. I am not saying I like hunting high fence. Like I said before, it was interesting. Time to move on mayby huh?
 
I would like to fly over that ranchito in a chute plane!
Double wammy. Hey Drummond Im seeing alot of deer lately I mean alot . One group Im watching the bucks all shed during the same week two weeks ago.
As for high fences guys get use to it I know of two fences going up in the states right now and these are not in Texas they are in the southwest though good or bad they are here to stay.
 
I know of only 4 ranches that have high fences in Sonora and to answer the previous question the deer are not released to be hunted elsewhere. I dont think that you realize hoe huge this country is, it would be impossible to "grow" enough deer for the hunters that hunt there. The reason these deer get so big is due to genetics, high protein diets and age.
Also, if you are going down to shoot a 40" deer you will probably be disapointed.

Drummond
 
This question is for you drummond

I've never been to Mexico and it may be great to hunt there, but why would you pay 6 or 7,000 dollars to pay for a mule deer hunt? Why not just go the midwest or northwest for some great deer hunting plus great scenery and pay half for the hunt? There are still many outtfitters that have "100% success". Also, do they let you shoot cull bigfhorn sheep? That would be pretty sweet to hunt one of those bad boys.
 
Hey blueoak, wheres your blacktail ranch located? My dad has a 6,000 acre cattle ranch with blacktails in central california, east of fresno. We've got some big bucks up there, but unfortunately we are on their migration pattern and the season is a good 2 months early, so there ain't no deer on our ranch durign the season, but then about 300+ in winter. The only thing I hunt are the sheds!:-(
 
BT, I see you have a lot to learn about Sonora. ;-) Remember, this is MONSTERMULEYS.com, and Mexico is where the monsters are found.

S.

:)
 
Well put Stanley!
Many people have no idea what Sonora holds. They just envision barren wasteland with 40" deer behind every cholla patch.
Some of the biggest deer live and die in Sonora. Some of the prettiest scenery is there as well. Consider it $6-7000 well spent.

Josh
 

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