Why not just end finder's fees?

C

Colville

Guest
LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-07 AT 03:59PM (MST)[p]It would be simple and end most of the rat race. Make anyone buying a G tag register the outfitter they will hunt with. Require that they can only have 1 outfitter work for them and last, dictate that the outfitter can only charge the average of the daily rate they charged hunters in the season prior. Now they can't fund hiring 40 guys to scout and there's no incentive for every guy in the state to go find that one bull. Disallow any payment to anyone other than the registered guide.

Now it's just a regular gig for the outfitter except that he work for the guy for a month instead of a week. Once the guy signs up with one, there's no changing guides. Everyone will still race to find and video great animals but... don't they do that already?

All this sounds like babysitting and ridiculous right? But no less ridiculous than the game whores (both hunter and guides) are making us all look. The benefit to hunters ends at the $ the guy pays for the tag... every other nickel, story, video thereafter seems to only make hunters look like pathetic fools shooting fish in a barrel... for $10,000. The only people that could possibly get bent about this are the ones F'ng us over in the public eye to begin with.
 
The best way to do this would be to end the extended seasons for G tag holders. I have yet to hear of finders fees payed here in Montana. Super tag and G tag holders can still hunt all the best arias but only when the normal season is on. The Montana fish and game is getting this one right.

Antlerradar
 
Hard to keep track of cash transactions...Just like you cannot use a broker to get you landowner tags in CO. Cash is king, and those with deep pockets will always find a loophole.
 
So, now we are going beyond socialism and straight to communism. Freakin brilliant!

Telling someone what they can charge for their service, who they can hire for help, how many they can hire for help? Is that the road we really want to go down? How about we tell you how much you can make at a living, how you can make a living, and where you can make a living, would you like that? If so, there are a few places like that out there already, Cuba and N Korea come to mind, go ahead and pack your bags and head for Havana.

Absolute nonsensical drivel!

PRO
 
Get this pro... IT'S THE PUBLICS GAME. If the public decides it's ok to let one fool to the head of the line in exchange for big cash, that same public can stipulate under what conditions he get's that privilege. This is not ordinary course of business on general draw seasons.

No one is saying how you should price your ordinary guiding products/services. This is not about your usual affairs. Public property is being auctioned off and not only sold, but given distinct privilege by allowing winter range killing and summer velvet culling. The trade off of being allowed to hand pick and cull the game you want is the right of the public to demand certain restraint! This is not a business rights matter.

My next best solution is do the F away with those tags. Would that be too much imposition on your livelihood? If we can agree that the state can chose NOT to sell those tags without that being a restraint on your trade, then the conditions it might place on them is no F'ng different.

Greed. Thanks for displaying it clearly. YOU are part of the problem. You could still sell your guide service at daily rates like you always do but that's not enough is it... nope you want the finders fee and 800 ashpoles running every velvet bull in the state trying to win the lotto and put a picture on your web site.

Fills me with pride for our heritage. You are an ambassador for the sport. A glowing light for our tradition. Well done.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-07 AT 10:17AM (MST)[p]Lets clear something up right here. I have NEVER guided/hunted a statewide tagholder, doubt I ever will. I have NEVER paid/been paid a finders fee. I have NEVER guided a hunter with more than ONE other guide along, usually as a spotter/camera guy. So, save your high-horse self-admiring blow-hard bullsh$# for someone else!

If you don't like the statewide tags, fine do away with them. Just don't cry afterwards when the costs to hunt INCREASES for you and the other 'average joes'.

I have NEVER hunted elk in the velvet, but I have killed MANY deer in the velvet, why is one okay and the other "devastating" to hunting?

I don't have a website to post pictures on, sorry you can't see the big SOB's my clients HAVE killed. I don't do this for glory and I damn sure don't do it for the money, but thanks for playing smart guy.

PRO
 
Ambassador, I vote to keep stupid people from breeding. Thus eventually ending the worthless dribble seen here on Monster Muleys.
Now go forth casting the light of our traditions, spreading good will and hope for all.
 
I didn't cry restraint of trade, you did so I have to assume you think the whole this is just fine as is, it doesn't bother you. We can make all the money those few G tags drive with $5 ncrease in permit apps. The tags aren't neceessary by a damn stretch and we could generate the money elswhere or of course, simply place some decency restrictions on how G tag holders can pursue game. It's not communism. Loggers can't cut any trees any where any time. I don't care if you guide those guys! But let's just put a fine on anyone taking a finders fee or the hunter for paying one that equals what he paid for the tag. He can hire anyone one he wants to hunt with/for him.

The way it is, is disgusting and the least we can do is try to take some of the money and rat race out of it, if we can't do even that we should walk away from them all together.

Maybe I'm too black and white about it, but from my pov you either are disgusted by this nonsense or you aren't. You aren't. You have a right not to be, I have a right to think that's BS.
 
You compared this to logging, can a logger hire only so many employees to cut down the trees alloted to him? Is he told what the maximum amount he can pay said employees? Hell no, that is where my beef is on your proposal.

I usually look at things "black and white" myself, I am disgusted every time a hunter feels the need to attack fellow hunters just because they hunt different than you do. Is that black and white enough for you? Got a run, Fidel is calling looking for my whereabouts!

PRO
 
Ever hear of Prevailing or minimum wage? No. Huh. Fidel is alive and well right here in our economy. You are already told what you can and can't do every day.

This is a special, once a year, one client deal. THIS is not about your regular business and the public has an interests in keeping this from becoming PATHETIC and DISGUSTING. Your interest is that it be as disgusting as possible, because that's where your bread get's buttered. The fact that it doesn't bother you stands for itself. I'll more than happy to stand with those that think it's pathetic and more than willing to point out that you'll do what you have to as long as there's money in it.

Can't wait to take my kid scouting for great bulls that we might sell. That's going to be awsome.

"son." "yeah dad?" "whadya think that one'll score?" "oh dad, I think about $15,400?" "That's my boy."
 
NUNYA & PRO glad to see you read Colvil's post. On the other thread you have a post(s) and I was going to reply with something similar to colvil's.
I don't know you, and don't have a real problem with anything. However, you seem to be convinced as does a few others that the money and benefit of these tags bring in is the be all end all.
I will try to keep this civil if you do, and to this specific aspect of the issue.

Why do you guys feel that these tags are the only or best way to raise the money, get the work done for habitat or what ever. I am not an economist, are you? Seriously, have you guys really looked into other ways of getting the money for the projects? What makes special tags so dang good for elk or elk habitat? Why do these seasons that go with those tags need to be open for year? Isn't cutting to the front of the line for that once in a life time tag good enough? Would people quit buying them if... Would people not buy as many raffle tickets? Just how much would the cost of a resident/non resident tag go up? See where I am going with this?
As a side note, don't think I am some kind of outfitter guide hater. I happen to have been raised in an Idaho outfitting family, targeting elk. I also realize that many middle men would be cut out and all those finders fees would go down without these tags...
 
springbear, good post. I would gladly discuss this with you in the tone you have set. If someone takes a sucker punch at me, they ought not cry when I swing back.

I would rather a few, sometimes one rich person fund habitat than put it all on the backs of the working class. That is why I like these tags and what they do. In Utah, even if you raised the fees for a tag, there is no guarentee that the additional money will go to wildlife, little lone habitat restoration and easement purchases. I like letting some millionare get his rocks off so that I can spend more money on my kids instead of chosing which kid gets to hunt this year. In Utah, raffles are ILLEGAL, so that option is non-existant. The statewide tags in Utah go from September 1- December 31, not year round, so I can't speak for what other states rules are/should be.

As I have stated MANY times now, I have NEVER recieved a finders fee, nor do I 'need' these tags to earn money guiding, I guided long before these tags were in place.

Utah put more money into habitat than all the other states combined in 2006, with almost all of the money raised coming from Govenors tags and conservation tags. Mule deer populations are suffering in almost every state and region, your state of Idaho has placed helping mule deer as the top priority for wildlife managers for a reason. The deer need help, and the habitat issues are the biggest issue facing them, and one of the things we as sportsmen can do to help. We can't control the weather, but we can set aside critical winter ranges and give better food and water sources for them to minimize the effects of drought and harsh winters. These are MUCH bigger issues to me than what time of year a hunter kills an elk.

PRO
 
I would be all for tag fee increases, habitat stamps, higher taxes with funds going to habitat and sheep transplants. I wish they would do those things and then actually spend the money on the wildlife. I also don't believe they should cut out Gov tags if they did do those things. We are talking one animal being killed to bring in hundreds of thousands of dollars. One animal how insignificant is that. I drive down the highways and see deer and elk creamed all over the road. What the hell difference is one more animal? If it is benefiting the rest of the population's of elk, deer or sheep. The only reason people are getting pissed about it is the fact it usually is one of the largest animals of its species in the state.
Anyone can buy the tag. Its fair and equal. I don't protest the car dealers because I can't afford a Hummer.
 
"Utah put more money into habitat than all the other states combined in 2006, with almost all of the money raised coming from Govenors tags and conservation tags"


Pro,
Do you have a source for this information? I'd like to look at it.

"One animal how insignificant is that."


Poachers say the same thing!


"Anyone can buy the tag. Its fair and equal. I don't protest the car dealers because I can't afford a Hummer."


NO not anyone can buy the auction tag. Not when it costs more than a lot of people make in a year. How can you afford a tag for $50,000+ but not a Hummer? Doesn't make sense. Now, anyone can afford a raffle tag.



It's Bush's fault!!!
 
Its all public info sremin. Get some ambition and look it up yourself. If your so worried about where the money is going why don't you spend as much time researching that as you do on MM
b!tching about it. You may be suprised and change you tune.
I didn't say everyone could afford a Gov tag. I said everyone has the opportunity to buy one. Some people can't afford a general season over the counter permit. They still have the opportunity to buy one. Freak this isn't rocket science.
 
I actually can agree with most of your points. Especially the part about it only being one elk... However the impact that this "one" bull(s) have had is going to out way the total of all the rest killed this year in the public relations department. That being said, where do we as sportsmen, go from here. It is obvious to me "we" sportsman have reached or crossed some kind of line in the sand on this issue. Meaning the total sum of these two "hunts" have struck a nerve with many, and crossed from "I don't agree" to well, way over a few hundred posts of name calling and "us vs them" and that is US HUNTERS VS THOSE HUNTERS. I just don't see the status quo (special tags seasons....) as being acceptable to the majority of elk hunters any more, let alone non hunters.
Maybe those "us" that want to improve the habitat need to take a hard look at how our actions or the results are playing out. it seems that we have pretty high expectations for what one of these bulls are worth. It is possible that 2 30K tags with less controversial limits are better than one 60k tag that ends up like one of these fiascos...
Josh Bransford.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-07 AT 01:01PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-07 AT 12:59?PM (MST)

isay,
I'm not worried about where the money is going, nor have I bitched about it. Why get so defensive because I ask for a source of information?






It's Bush's fault!!!
 
I have no problem with guides or them charging what the market will bear to do guide services on general and app seasons, be the land private or public. I hope they all get rich doing it or die trying, bully for them. I assume they are like any other occupation, mostly very good and decent people.

I draw the line and scrambling a combat batallion in July to pin down the largest velvet elk so Boss Hog can fly in on his hover craft and ask where to shoot, everyone takes pictures like they just packed in and killed the bull 20 miles into the wilderness (except for those houses in the background). Oh, and making hunting and hunters look like a complete F'ng joke. To get the $50k back it'd take less than a $1 per license issued, how many issued last year? couple hundred thousand maybe? Wow $.25 a piece not to ever have to see this crap again maybe $1.50 for all species, sign me up.

I don't see why any guide would defend this. There's just one lotto hit in it for one lucky guide, this is not part of the way of life but it is a black eye on all of us. Why defend it just because it's legal? You don't have to answer me, you don't owe me any explanation. I'll just never understand why hunters are more and more willing to prostitute our passtime.
 
As I've said many times before on this forum, we are letting some things slide that are killing our sport. One of the main ones is finders fees and putting a bounty on the head of these big animals. Money corrupts. The more money people make from the dvds of these animals, the higher the price will go. The huge deer that we used to see as a special experience will now be seen as a meal ticket. I suspect that this will escalate until eventually someone will get seriously hurt while sitting on an animal because another "guide" "found" it first. We need to put an immediate end to finders fees.
 
I continually find it very disturbing that we hear constantly
that us hunters should remain united. Just my worthless opinion on the matter, but as a hunter I can guarantee you that I want no part, no association, no anything with those that take part in this ALLEGED Trophy Killing.

Poachers are in the woods with weapon's harvesting animals.
Does this make them hunters?? Do you wish to be associated with them?? I would think that if I ran a reputable outfitting business I would do a little work in policing my own, contacting the authorities when PROOF of a violation occurs, and protecting my way of life. Enough of the general public that choose not to hunt as well as hunters have had enough
of this Trophy Killing B.S. that sooner rather than later something will be done.

Honorable guides and outfitters that work hard for your clients, do things the right way, the legal way I wish you
and your businesses success and prosperity. I wish you would cut out the cancers that are bringing your proffession down.
 
I think that anyone that spends the kind of money spent on governer tags is a complete idiot. That is not hunting, it is shooting. Go help your guide find you an animal if you can afford one of those hunts. I guide hunters and encourage them to help me in every way. In doing so, the hunter actually is hunting, and not relying on someone else to do the hunting for them. I like the clients that I can assist in a hunt instead of the clients that rely on me solely for the hunt.
 
As a hunter,I was put off the very first time I heard about G tags. Now today I'm more convinced than ever they play no redeeming role. I always thought the idea of "raising money for wildlife" was a pretty lame excuse. As Coleville noted a $1.00 increase somewhere along the line would more than make up the lost money. Something I've said all along.

I'm just guessing, but from what I've heard from fellow hunters, (the kind of hunters who don't spend much time, if any, slobbering over big rack photos on the internet)I imagine 90% of licensed hunters oppose G tags for one reason or another.

Doing away with them sure would solve a lot of problems.

Money can buy a lot of things in this world. The publics wildlife should not be one of them.

Eel
 
For years there have been threads here about these high dollar hunts and the same few guys have denied that "finder fees" were being paid. Now they freely admit it and it appears the prices are high. Higher than the guide fees. Interesting change.

JB
 
JB... I've had that same thought about these same "rumors and myth's."

I wonder about the tax ramifications and how this is claimed
by the payer and those that receive these fees.
 
wiley....I'm not sure of course, but the illegal aliens camped behind Home Depot could probably tell you. (if you understand Spanish):)
 

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