What's the big deal???

C

CouesSniper

Guest
With all the discussion about the AZ and NV auction tags there were many who were upset that the hunters were able to hunt in July when the bulls were still in velvet. Respectfully, I ask why? What's the big deal? Thousands of deer are killed in velvet every year (some of them auction tags), but a couple bulls get shot in velvet and people flip out. I don't get it.

Coues
 
You don't get it. Some of us feel that:
A. Putting prices on animals head demeens the animal, and takes the possibility of hard working hunters getting the animal away, as that animal is removed as a possiblity. It also establishes a precedent whereby any big animal runs the risk of being sat on all summer for somebodies paycheck.
B. Game animals "know" when the hunting season begins and ends, in these cases, that is not in July.
C. Hunting is part search and part success. Without the search in most peoples opinion, there should be no success. To circumvent this process by hiring somebody to "show" you a semi-tame animal to most is cheating and gives hunting a bad name.
D. It privatizes a public resource.
E. Hunting is getting increasingly hi-tech as people "cut more corners" to get to the glory photos. Hunting should be about the journey, not the end. In some cases, the outfitters are using paraplanes to find animals. Do you really think this is ethical?
F. Outfitters once gave a service (and some still do) that gave a person a means that was logistically beyond this persons ability, and thus a total experience, i.e. mules, wall tents, dutch oven cooking, wilderness settings, etc. Many of today's outfitters take them to a trailer, or have them stay at a motel and buy there own meals, with the total service offered being that they know where some animals are in a limited draw area. Basically, it is information a client is buying.
G. Most of these outfitters than sell videos claiming "WE killed ___ number of 400" bulls this year". The outfitters have acknowledged that the client has little to nothing to do with the process, and that all the client to them means a financial means to their own ego driven end.
 
>You don't get it. Some
>of us feel that:
>A. Putting prices on animals
>head demeens the animal, and
>takes the possibility of hard
>working hunters getting the animal
>away, as that animal is
>removed as a possiblity.
>It also establishes a precedent
>whereby any big animal runs
>the risk of being sat
>on all summer for somebodies
>paycheck.
>B. Game animals "know" when
>the hunting season begins and
>ends, in these cases, that
>is not in July.
>C. Hunting is part search
>and part success. Without
>the search in most peoples
>opinion, there should be no
>success. To circumvent this
>process by hiring somebody to
>"show" you a semi-tame animal
>to most is cheating and
>gives hunting a bad name.
>
>D. It privatizes a public
>resource.
>E. Hunting is getting increasingly
>hi-tech as people "cut more
>corners" to get to the
>glory photos. Hunting should
>be about the journey, not
>the end. In some
>cases, the outfitters are using
>paraplanes to find animals.
>Do you really think this
>is ethical?
>F. Outfitters once gave a
>service (and some still do)
>that gave a person a
>means that was logistically beyond
>this persons ability, and thus
>a total experience, i.e. mules,
>wall tents, dutch oven cooking,
>wilderness settings, etc. Many
>of today's outfitters take them
>to a trailer, or have
>them stay at a motel
>and buy there own meals,
>with the total service offered
>being that they know where
>some animals are in a
>limited draw area. Basically,
>it is information a client
>is buying.
>G. Most of these outfitters
>than sell videos claiming "WE
>killed ___ number of 400"
>bulls this year". The
>outfitters have acknowledged that the
>client has little to nothing
>to do with the process,
>and that all the client
>to them means a financial
>means to their own ego
>driven end.


EXCELLENT RESPONCE!
 
Outdoordan said it all.
I think people aren't really worried about a bull in velvet I think it's because there was no hunting involved with either NV, AZ bull.
 
they didn't hunt the animals, they paid other people to hunt them and the tag holders just showed up and pulled the trigger is the way I understand it
 
Outdoordan,

My post was not meant to ask whether or not the auction tags and/or guides were a good idea. That is obviously a topic that many people differ on and won't get resolved any time soon. I was purely asking why people were upset about hunting elk in July. I can imagine the frustration of scouting a trophy animal for months only to have a guy who dropped a measly (to him) 50 to 100K for a special tag swoop in and kill the trophy I worked so hard for before i can hunt. But that's hunting nowadays I guess, and he paid for that privilege. Just means that those of us that can't afford to buy such a tag have to work harder. As for part "B" of your response, I don't buy that elk or deer "know" when hunting season starts. IMO older, wiser bucks just know to become scarce when there's activity in the woods, nothing more. Maybe I misread some of the posts, but it seemed that the simple fact that it was July and in velvet was a big issue to some.
 
Because that bull was what I would call somewhat Tame! That bull was still feeding in the feilds behind McDonalds.
 
I feel most people were upset also that the regular hunt was not involved, but thats why they pay the big bucks, is to be able to hunt when there is noone else hunting, most people were upset how they were killed not when they were killed, looking at the picture of the drop tine bull and the log home in the background was a black eye for the hunters and gives you a little bit on how this bull was taken, and the nv bull was a fight over one outfitter finding the bull and giveing info to another outfitter and the outfitter going and killing this bull, i believe that this bull would have been killed in the archery season if the gov tag did not kill it, there were other guides that new of this bull, that would of had hunters on him that wanted nothing to do with the gov tag and the circle of fame and glory and trash money. The guides that killed the nv bull has a rep of being outlaws, killing the town pet deer, from having a hunter killing a buck on private property in a field with homes around, that was (POSTED). This is what gives the hunters and the true sportsman a bad name. lw
 
CouesSniper, you are correct, there were many complaints about killing these bulls while they were still in velvet. I, like you am confused why people take issue with killing an elk in the velvet, but not mule deer. Last year, Utah came up with a 'management' tag to lower the bull/cow ratios on 4 of the top ens LE units. These tags have a requiremnet of having five or less points on atleast one side. Many pushing this wanted it to be a velvet hunt, that way the bulls would be true five or less on one side, instead of a busted up 6+pt bull. It was changed, but I am curious what the public reaction would have been if this had gone thru.

California allows the Governors tag holder hunt while the bulls are still in velvet, and they are about as PC of a state as you can get. I can understand people being upset about how these hunts were conducted, but I am confused as to why people are upset about when these hunts were conducted. In Utah, they can't hunt in July, but they can in December when no one else can, it is a 'special' tag, not a 'public' tag.

PRO
 
The point isn't because it is allowed it is right. The exact opposite is true. At one time gill nets were legal, there were no seasons or limits for ducks, and a million other "at one time" legal things that have been changed.
And yes elk behave differently during different times in the year. Most everyone in the western states have driven right by elk feeding next to the road in summer and in winter. But those same elk evaporate during hunt season.
There are many private ranches that sell "above average" scoring elk that people can hunt that want to "buy" a big bull. Let them do so on private lands, not the lands you and I hunt.
It is time for a change, and I believe most hunters would agree...
 
I was purely asking why people were upset about hunting elk in July.




Please quit calling it hunting. From all I read, he paid spotters to tell him where and when the bull would be, and he simply pulled the trigger on it.

Thats not hunting, its killing, or shooting or even "harvest" if you must ........ but the guys who FOUND that bull, TRACKED and WATCHED him ..... they're the ones who put in the long hours, not the tag holder who did the shooting.


Also

When antlers get hard, the animals carrying them change. If you don't know that, you don't hunt much
 
All I can say is thank your state game agencies for making hunting a "rich" mans game, to all the people who put in their time scouting and watching animals just to see them shot by someone who can hunt with a rifle before and during archery season all the way to the end of the year, is hard to choke down sometimes. It is sad when people are putting a price tag on public animals, because that is not what our fore fathers had in mind. I do disagree with baggin on the guides because those guides who are producing quality animals for clients, in my mind have put in there time and know where and what animals are out there, and for most that is their only form of income. That is where the guide should be deserving of that credit, because in a sense he is the one hunting the animal, not shooting it! Just my two cents and yeah before you ask I am a guide and I can tell ya it take a lot of work and hours spent in the mountains in order to produce for your hunters or shooters.
 
Both elk and deer are more tolerant of people before they shed in the summer. They both spend more time in waking hours out feeding. In most places if you can hunt them in velvet it's archery only. Gosh I wonder why? Mabye because archers have to get within 40 yards and they may be tolerant but not generally that tolerant. Where is there a general season, rifle velvet hunt?

"But that's hunting nowadays I guess" That's exactly the point. People are saying it shouldn't be hunting nowadays, it should be stopped.
 
Elkguide,
Its not about guides working hard, but the ones who break the law and supposedly back stab others, those are the ones creating problems. Just so they can get a few extra bucks and a little more fame.







It's Bush's fault!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-07 AT 05:36PM (MST)[p]> I was purely asking why
>people were upset about hunting
>elk in July.
>
>
>
>
>Please quit calling it hunting. From
>all I read, he paid
>spotters to tell him where
>and when the bull would
>be, and he simply pulled
>the trigger on it.
>
>Thats not hunting, its killing, or
>shooting or even "harvest" if
>you must ........ but the
>guys who FOUND that bull,
>TRACKED and WATCHED him .....
>they're the ones who put
>in the long hours, not
>the tag holder who did
>the shooting.
>
>
>Also
>
>When antlers get hard, the animals
>carrying them change. If you
>don't know that, you don't
>hunt much


You don't know me sir, so don't come at me like that. I'll call it whatever I please. Just because one guy does it that way doesn't mean I or anyone else who has such a tag would. And my point about hunting in velvet is still the same. Who cares if they 'change'? Should we not have hunts during the rut now too?
 
"You don't know me sir, so don't come at me like that"


Get used to it. It happens a lot on here.












It's Bush's fault!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-07 AT 10:29PM (MST)[p]

I have been fortunate enough to have seen some incredible muleys in the high country of British Columbia over the years. One buck in particular let me get within 40 yards of him for 4 out of 5 summers. He was a 220+ class NT one year and then the next year he dropped the trash and was just a solid 37-38 inch wide 200 inch typical. This buck lived on public land in an OTC area and as far as I know, I am the only human eyes to have ever have seen him. Every year, he'd disappear come the 3rd week of August. Every year come Sept 10, I'd hunt my ass off trying to turn him up during the season. Never once did I see hide nor hair of him, but I sure had fun trying. You see, that's hunting. That buck was super smart and would hit the thickest gawd aweful timber you could ever imagine. He outsmarted me big time. That is part of the joy that most of us hard-core trophy muley nuts get to feel. The desire, the want, the blood, sweat and tears. The passion. That's what its all about. No, that 400 inch bull laying in front of that home or the whinning and sniveling from one outfitter's guides about the other so-called backstabbing guides, is not what hunting is all about. That ain't hunting. You can't tell me the guides even work for their money. Oh yeah, they were watching the bull, only after some local pimped it out. You put that money out there, you don't have to work. You can sit back with your video camera and talk about how many big bulls you have killed (even though you haven't, your so called clients are the trigger men), but you can't say you are a great hunter. Cause you ain't. Shooting a bull in July when the other hunters can't start until Sept is no more than shooting fish in a fish bowl. Don't trump it up as if you worked for it. Give me a break. Like I said I could crawl right up on a 200 inch typical every July in the backcountry and yet he was one of the smartest bucks I've ever hunted. If you want to be a trophy hunter, then you can't miss the hard work and then expect you'll receive respect. Sure there are the WANNABEE's that will kiss your ass and all that, but that Glory is one that fades quite fast now ain't it? You wanna be respected, then start hunting. Get off your ass and do it the right way.
 
This has nothing to do with many of the point made, other than the jealosy that is part of this by those who can't afford or wouldn't spend the money for one of these tags, but please say whether this alters your view of the "rich, auction tag holder".

A good buddy of mine drew an early muzzleloader tag in Arizona, and since this is probably the only elk tag he'll ever draw in AZ, he's been talking to some outfitters about going guided instead of DIY, even though he's shot over 25 elk on his own. Two different outfitters he's talked to, when the subject of this bull came up, told him that the guy who shot this elk is NOT an auction tag holder, but is a raffle tag holder. If that is the case, that would sort of take some of the wind out of the sails of some of you guys who've been berating him as a rich slob. I'll agree that he is a dumb*rse and might be a slob, but he might not be so rich as some of you want to believe. Ponder that for a while.
 
Ponder what? I don't think that the points I made are only in reference to rich people. The wealth of the person doesn't really have any pertinence to A through G of my post. My problem is probably more with the system than the individuals. But, like BCBOY, I feel strongly that the journey is more important than the size, score, points, or glory. If your buddy wants to use an outfitter so be it. Personally in any unit in AZ you can find great elk, and my opinion is that if I do it myself, my 330 bull means more to me than the 380 bull that some outfitter led me to. If I speak with somebody whom goes on outfitted hunts and kills big animals, I may enjoy the story, however somebody whom puts in the shoe leather, time, and kills consistently I have great respect for as a hunter.
 
99% of the hunt is the scouting and hard work you do in the offseason.Obtaining permission to hunt certain land or Nat'l forest and then scouting it YOURSELF,not somebody to do it for you.These people are a joke who pay for hunts where all they have to do is be led around like cattle by the guide to the animals,I have no respect for these type of people,looking for the easy way to put the trophy on the wall and then brag,give us a break. Great post BCboy that is what is all about.
 
When I see a georgous woman and she has a cigarette in her hand it cuts her looks in half in my eyes. When I see a hunting magazine story and they use a guide service then the whole story has just lost half of the excitement in my eyes.
I really like how Eastmans mag states when a hunt story is DIY
(DIY means "Do It Yourself" to some of you guide service people who do not know what that means). It really gets my blood pumpin' and makes the story that much more interesting to me.
I really like what OutdoorDan and BCBoy had to say. fatrooster.
 
CouesSniper - do you know what hunting is ? do you know what shooting is ? do you know the difference ?

I'm serious. You have to know the difference between shooting a lion in a cage with a rifle, and going into a wilderness area with a self bow, bivy hunting elk for 14 days and shooting a 4x4 and packing him out yourself.

I just gave you opposite sides of the spectrum that people see hunting in. Where does paying someone to do all the scouting, all the work, all the hunting and then you showing up and doing the shooting fall in that spectrum ?

It falls very far away from one side, pretty dang close to the other, and thats just the facts of it.

That tag holder shot a big bull, no doubt. He'll have a great mount, no doubt. But to say he rally hunted that bull ? C'mon, nobody can say that, can they ? His trophy is in B&C inches, and how far up his name is in the book, not the experience of it all, not the HUNT, because he didn't hardly do any hunting, did he ?

You see, its not so much about time of year as it is the hunting or in this case, lack of.

If you try and argue this tag kill was hunting ? Then yeah, I'm going to call you out on it, because what happened was he paid a lot of money for someone else to hunt this elk, he simply showed up and shot it from what I've read.
 
>CouesSniper - do you know what
>hunting is ? do you
>know what shooting is ?
>do you know the difference
>?
>
>I'm serious. You have to know
>the difference between shooting a
>lion in a cage with
>a rifle, and going into
>a wilderness area with a
>self bow, bivy hunting elk
>for 14 days and shooting
>a 4x4 and packing him
>out yourself.
>
>I just gave you opposite sides
>of the spectrum that people
>see hunting in. Where does
>paying someone to do all
>the scouting, all the work,
>all the hunting and then
>you showing up and doing
>the shooting fall in that
>spectrum ?
>
>It falls very far away from
>one side, pretty dang close
>to the other, and thats
>just the facts of it.
>
>
>That tag holder shot a big
>bull, no doubt. He'll have
>a great mount, no doubt.
>But to say he rally
>hunted that bull ? C'mon,
>nobody can say that, can
>they ? His trophy is
>in B&C inches, and how
>far up his name is
>in the book, not the
>experience of it all, not
>the HUNT, because he didn't
>hardly do any hunting, did
>he ?
>
>You see, its not so much
>about time of year as
>it is the hunting or
>in this case, lack of.
>
>
>If you try and argue this
>tag kill was hunting ?
>Then yeah, I'm going to
>call you out on it,
>because what happened was he
>paid a lot of money
>for someone else to hunt
>this elk, he simply showed
>up and shot it from
>what I've read.

Dude, what is your problem? Reread my post. I never once defended that guy. The picture of that dead elk next to a log cabin makes me cringe. Don't presume to know what kind of a hunter I am from the 3 freaking posts on this thread. All I asked about is why people were upset about the velvet. Some people came back at me with some good responses. You just want to argue about how the damn bull was killed. Didn't want to get into it but I agree with alot of what has been said - especially with BC about hunting hard for a trophy; I enjoy hunting hard as much or more than anyone.

"You see, its not so much about time of year as it is the hunting or
in this case, lack of."

No dude, the bull is dead and the ethics has been hashed to death in the other threads. Go post on those if you want to get back into it. I only wanted to get into the time of year. Period.
 
BCBOY, you said it all right there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From the pics and storys you have posted over the years I really have alot of respect for you as a true HUNTER.
If you ever get caught up in the... get it for the "client" by any means, plane, finders, pimpin on the www, a posey of 10 guys in the hills looking, Im giveing up hunting and start doeing something else. I have drifted off to sleep reliveing my toughest, mountain climbing, leg burning, raining, almost ready to quit hunts many nights and love every one of them....the thrill of the hunt, the memorts is what it's all about.
 
Time of year is not really an arguable point at all is it ? Whats o "unsporting" about killing one on his summer range vs killing him during the rut when he's REALLY stupid ?
 
Couessniper, what else do you expect out of a bunch of jealous drama queens that are just butt hurt over some guy shooting a big bull.

You guys that piss and moan looking for attention are the guys who bring all the anti's attention to subjects like this.

What makes you guys think you have the right to judge other peoples hunts ? If any of you guys had half a clue you would keep your pie holes shut intel the whole story is released and the litigation is over on this subject.
 
LONGSHOOTER - Its BECAUSE of all the negativity that ARA's and non-hunters see in activities such as this that gets my attention. Why ? This bull wasn't hunted by the tag holder, he was paid for and shot, thats about the whole hunting story right there, isn't it ?

And that ties DIRECTLY into my hunting and the future of hunting for my kids and it pisses me off that big money, greed, and horn porn might very well jeopardize my 6 year old boys chances of hunting.

Can't happen ? Like hell it can't. Ask the people who's been banned from cougar hunting, bear hunting, dove hunting, trapping ....... the list goes on and on of the reality that we, as hunters, are a MINORITY in the population, constantly fighting to keep out hunting rights and then on top of that ? We have to fight off the stupid SOB's that are in our ranks, shooting big bulls in front of people houses, the well known names in Hunting that are caught poaching (Glen Barry, Noel Feather), even people on monstermuley's like DeerKing and all of that makes it that frickin much worse.

So don't tell me that what I live and breath to do (hunting) doesn't allow me the ability to judge others in my sport and how the impact of what they do affects me - I have that right and I'll use it every single day - and to me ? The NFL is cleaning house right now on those that give it a bad image. Baseball will soon follow, kicking out steroid users etc.

Its time hunting does the same. The greed, the horn porn, the shooting without hunting ........ its time to stop it, to self patrol our own ranks because buddy if we don't, the non-hunting public will stop it for us with voting and the ARA's will fan the flames that call for all hunting to stop.


Believe it
 
I'll try to stick to the subject...hunting animals in velvet...

I think it stinks. Plus. I think animals mounted in velvet are ugly.

That's my opinion. The hunter's moon does not rise and set in July...
 
I haven't shot any real trophies in my life but I have taken several animals. And after every one of them I feel that letdown that the hunt is over. I wonder if these guys shooting these bulls feel that same feeling? To me it really doesn't matter that much if they are rich or not. It's all about the thrill of everything up to pulling the trigger.
 
How about we start a new rule that states that you cannot shoot any animal that you did not personally scout and you have to have a live picture of the animal to prove it?
 
Not if it is with a bow and if in an open unit. LE or over the counter. In my opinion the early season Or Velvet if you will, is not as dificult.
 
I disagree that it is an equal challenge. Most of the large bucks I see in the summer are by themselves (one set of eyes) while during the rut the large bucks are with does (many sets of eyes)

I cannot tell you how many stalks I have made on mature rutting bucks only to have a doe, or for that matter a smaller buck bust me.

The same would apply for elk.

John
 
John - summer bucks/bulls almost always bachelor group don't they ?

Muley62 - I agree with stopping the "finding" services. Its bastardizing hunting I've figured out.

How much money you got = how big a bull or buck you can shoot.
Okay, its not to that point YET, buts it fast approaching folks to the point of people spending tens of thousands on finders to locate an animal, with no hunting of that animal themselves, just pulling the trigger.

That aint hunting, they might as well pay someone to pull the trigger too.
 
BL,

Some do, others are solitary. I have seen 3-4 year old bucks grouped up but most older animals will usually (not always) be solitary or paired up until the rut begins - That's what I have experienced.

Have you actually attempted a stalk on a mature rutting buck or bull that is with cows or does? Not as easy as it seems and many on this site will testify to that. Yes they are not paying much attention to us but their girlfriends are still paying a lot of attention.

If I could hunt during my summer scouting trips, my taxidermist would be a millionaire. There is really no comparison.

John
 
BL,

I guess I should clarify: I do agree with the other points you are making, just not the summer/rutt comparison.

John
 
I will say, hunting bulls/bucks during the rut is easier than during velvet times. If I was offered a big bull tag in September or late July, I would take the rut 10 out of 10 times.

Here in Utah, we can hunt the Wasatch Front from August 18th thru December with archery gear. Most, if not all those who hunt this area in August do so for one of two reasons, goos weather or they desire to kill a buck in velvet. The bulk of archers who hunt this unit hit it the hardest during the rut, I wonder why that is? Could it be because the odds of killing a big buck go UP during the rut? I say, HELL yes!

PRO
 
No doubt PRO, the odds go up during the rut and I too would choose the rut over the summer hunt because the rut is such an exciting, and "traditional" time to be hunting. There is nothing like it!

Summertime has a lot of opportunity also but just doesn't have that hunting-time-of-year feel to it like late August/early september have.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-09-07 AT 09:20PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-09-07 AT 09:19 PM (MST)

Very interesting stuff here guys. Here's another little story. Maybe it will add another perspective.

One year while scouting for a hunt I found a monster bull. I watched him for a couple of weeks then one day I saw another guy watching him and getting video. Later I asked him what he thought about the bull and he said, "What bull?" Now, I know this guy and know he works for a high profile outfitter but they never spent time in this oddball unit so I wasn't too worried about it. That bull ended up breaking off a couple of points before the season started. I had a buddy with a tag who I was scouting for too but we both decided to pass on the broken bull. I ended up shooting a really cool 8X8 nontypical and he shot a huge but broken 6X6. We killed on the first two days (it was an early rifle hunt) When I got home there was a message from the high profile outfitter on my phone. I had no idea why he would call me and didn't know how he got my number but I blew it off and never called back. I ran into him one day at the store and asked why he had called. He said he wanted to let me know that the big bull his guy had videoed that day had broken some points so I shouldn't shoot him. I thought that was kinda weird and how dumb did he think I was anyway? It didn't occur to me he was banking it for next year. I guess I am dumb.

Well, the next year my wife drew an early muzzleloader tag in the same unit so I was back after that bull. On Sept. 2nd I was heading in to do some more scouting and I see a huge rack go by in the back of a truck. Then after him were a couple of guys I knew riding quads. There is no archery hunt in this unit so I couldn't figure out what was going on. I stopped and talked to them. Turns out is was that same outfitter with his raffle tag client. They shot it the first day it was legal to hunt with that tag (Sept. 1). They even showed me video where they were joking about beating us to the bull. I think it ended up scoring 407 or something like that.

So do you think my wife and I were a little bummed that somebody beat us to it and we didn't get a fair crack at it. You bet. We were directly and personalaly scooped on this bull without a fair chance to hunt it. It wasn't July but it wasn't elk season in that unit yet and the bull was hanging around a tank right next to a main road. Also the bull's antlers were white like he never rubbed a tree. I was told by one of the guides that the guy who killed it was pretty old and could barely hike to the edge of the hill to shoot it down in the canyon and that he couldn't even hike down himself to tag it. Did he deserve to kill that bull?

I bet you can't guess who the outfitter was?

Was it fair? Did we get ripped off? Maybe, maybe not, but I sure couldn't blame them for going in and getting that bull before we had a chance and most of you guys would have done it too. It doesn't matter if it is velvet or not. The Gov. tags give a lucky few a serious advantage over the rest of us. Oh well. They raise a bunch of money for wildlife. It just sucked that we got screwed by this one. My wife ended up taking a really nice 6X7 that was on the cover of Eastman's and AZOutdoorsman mags. I was very proud of her for her clean one shot kill after a hard day of hunting and a long hands and knees stalk. Did she deserve to kill that bull? I mean I guided her? She didn't scout it herself? Where do you draw the line on what constitutes a real hunt? So much of this talk on MM sounds like jealousy to me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-09-07 AT 09:55PM (MST)[p]Isn't it funny how the Jealousy card is always thrown out there eh? Heck, I've used it myself many a time too. The fact is if you read my post, and those that agreed with it, Jealousy don't fit into the picture at all. You see, I'm quite certain those poor rich saps that buy these tags are actually jealous of me. You look at that one outfitter and all his success, take away the Governor Tags that he guides in July, August, Dec and Jan or whatever month the regular joes can't hunt, and what do you have? You have some decent 170-185 class bucks. Have you seen what me and my buddies have been killing on a regular basis on public land in OTC units? We've actually been doing that good and better. In the last 4 years I've personally killed a 190 inch 10x4 triple dropper, a 178 and change 4x4 and a 202 inch 9x7. On top of that I've killed several monster bears including a 6'8" and a 7'4", all of which were killed spot and stalk. And then there's the monster lions. :) Makes ya wonder now don't it? I'm not anything special. I just like to hunt my ass off and so do my family and friends. So, you tell me, am I driven my jealousy????
 
Then again, I'm hunting the rut. So it can't be that hard right Pro? Did you happen to read the MnT story in Muley Crazy? Have you ever hunted your ass off so hard that you are both physically and emotionally beat. So much so, that you walk out of the house on the last day of the season and leave your rifle behind. LOL! I tell ya Widebugger would have been a piece of cake to kill in July. And I'm sure whackin' MnT in Jan in belly deep snow would have been worth it. Geeze, I could have killed him as a 225 buck instead of a old regressed 202 buck eh?
 
I still can't get over the statement from that other thread about that bull the Posse got screwed on. "The Glory". Cracks me up that they think shooting a bull in July is somehow Glorious. Heavens will part and the Angel of Lord will come down and declare, 'Today, the Bull of all Bulls is dead. Today is the day that the Shooter and the Guide will receive their just reward. Glory will be bestowed upon them just as soon as they pay their Finder's Fee.'
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-09-07 AT 11:43PM (MST)[p]

Some of you fellers have to few things to worry about.
As for BC, in another forum you post pics of an auction tag hunter and guide, so you must be ok with the whole auction tag guide thing in some cases. I could give a chit less either way on the deal. After listening to your rants, pating yourself on the back, tooting your own horn and putting down some of the best hunters in the world (no not the shooters)people you have not even met. I just may puke. Its not by the guides doing that the state gives tags with season dates in july or january. Of course the guys who buy the tags and can't hunt their selves are going to hire the best dam hunters they can. Money is no option for them remember. If you think the guys who are finding and getting these monster bucks and bulls killed year after year can't hunt your dumber than you look.
And brush your teeth for gawd sakes.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-09-07 AT 11:58PM (MST)[p]Hey BCBOY,

I really liked some of the things you said earlier. I'm not after you. I just started checking out MM recently and in this short time have seen SO many people just go off on outfitters or hunters whenever they are successful. I have been the guy people were talking crap about myself as well have some of my friends. Now that you posted the sizes of your kills I bet you are next. :) I'm not accusing anybody in particular of jealousy but when so many folks throw gas on a fire you know that's what's behind some of it.

You know what bugs me about all this trophy talk is how much "glory" motivates people and often causes them to do things that actually diminishes the hunt which to me lowers the glory potential. Sometimes they cut the corners too close which seems to have happened in the case of the AZ droptine bull. (Legal or not I think just about evereybody agrees it was dumb to shoot so close to houses.) I don't think somebody has to suffer to be worthy of killing an animal sometimes it is just luck or something. Too often guys spend so much time and money trying to figure out how to make it easy they would have been better off just hunting hard.

I started trophy hunting for the challenge and the satisfaction that comes from seeing a plan come together. I honestly think that most (not all) hunters would prefer to remove as much challenge as possible through technology etc. To me the "end justify the means" attitude has taken the soul out of hunting. It is sort of like skipping to the end of a mystery book just to find out "who done it" rather than reading the whole thing and trying to decipher the clues and characters. What's the point of reading the book then?

The "glory shots" and kill shots that must be captured on video have become the primary object of many hunts not only for the rich and sponsored but for Average Joe's. The TV programs where individuals or teams "compete" to kill animals and capture it on video are the symptom of how far down this road we have gone. I can't imagine Fred Bear or Jack O'connor thinking that was hunting. That kind of corporate crap has turned hunting into a cheap hooker. You get the big shot at the end but none of the more intimate stuff that makes it real. (sorry about that analogy but it just fits) :)

I couldn't care less if some guy who wins the raffle tag or buys the auction tag hires a guide to bottle feed his bull steroids or shoots it in velvet. What bothers me is that Average Joe Hunter has lost the image of what hunting is all about in pusuit of "glory" while trying to be like these guys. They are motivated by the pictures of the bottle fed bulls or fenced in bucks that they see in the magazines and videos and feel compelled to "compete" with that image. When a persons self worth is determined by how big an animal he has killed not how he kills his animals I think it is just sad.

So, lets all laugh at the rich guys who hire guides to help them kill a pet elk in somebody's backyard because as you say BCBOY they should be jealous of us. Instead of glorifying people for killing big stuff with the help of 20 guys with radios tag teaming the animal from shoot planes and on every hill and waterhole, how about giving props to guys who do it the hard way. (Not Tred Barta though)

Here I'll go first...My biggest bull ended up scoring almost 20" bigger than I guessed he would but I didn't shoot him because of his score but because I had some of his sheds and had spent 30 consecutive days scouting him. First trying to find him in a wilderness area, then followed him on foot for the last 12 days until the season opened. That's why I'm proud of taking that bull.

So, now you guys can all start worshipping me right? HA! :)
 
These few tags raise alot of money for wildlife and wildlife habitat and they do an incredible amount of good whose potential dollars would more than likely otherwise be passed on to the average joe in the form of higher license and tag fees. With the possible exception of Utah I can't think of a state that factors these few permits into the tag quota equation and they are not taking away any permits from any average joe. Without computers, websites, forums, text messaging etc., etc. 99% of all of us would never hear about any of this and I submit that access to all this information and the varying opinions they generate has made the situation much worse for hunters and generated more negative publicity than any anti hunter could possibly come up with. You all are doing their work for them and I'm sure they are watching as they now have the same access to all the same information we all do. I don't particularly care for the way things appeared to go down on a couple of these hunts but these hunts have been going on for a long time and I've heard very little negative about them till now. Guess what, bucks and bulls have been shot out from under competing hunters, and questionable or poor decisions are made every year in the field in every state. Because these are governors or commissioners tags they draw alot more attention and those that participate seem to be held to a higher standard. Do I agree with hunting bucks and bulls year round, No I don't, but that is why they raise the big bucks. The hunter or high bidder has an advantage, deal with it. The game and fish depts. have it under control, if they find the accused broke the law then they will get in trouble, if they didn't they won't. This idea that you are not a true hunter if you hunt private ground, hire a guide, buy a tag instead of drawing it or unless you belly crawled 1000 yards through the Cholla cactus to get within range is bogus IMO. If you like to hunt then go hunting and do your thing, and let the authorities sort it out. The down fall of hunting, if there is gonna be one, IMO is gonna come at the hands of websites, trophy magazines, and record books & videos where people just can't wait to see their mug plastered in its contents and on the covers and will sometimes use scrupulus methods towards that end and their willing to trade their story for a coffee mug or a logoed ballcap for a little fame or recognition or just to see their picture in it. The other detriment to hunting IMO is that the participants can't get together to fight the antis, were too busy fighting each other or being apathetic.
 
Dang wetmule you said it well! Thanks for putting it back into perspective.

One thing that has been bugging are all the comments like "these govenor tag holders have an advantage over the average joe because they get to hunt earlier". Why has hunting become a competition?

A competition only exists when two people are willing to play the same game. Don't let internet forums and chat rooms ruin hunting for you,
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-07 AT 06:35PM (MST)[p]"After listening to your rants, pating yourself on the back, tooting your own horn and putting down some of the best hunters in the world (no not the shooters)people you have not even met. I just may puke."

Hmmm, lets see, the Posse comes on here and declares how they've been screwed out of the 'Glory' of taking a July bull. Where have I ever put them down and said they can't hunt? Matter of fact, I have challenged them to get off their asses and indeed hunt have I not? I once was a defender of these guys. But the years of watching them rant and whine every time their name gets posted up makes me want to puke. This last time, THEY, were the ones that caused the uproar. They could have been sportsmen and let it all go as a learning experience not to share too much info with the competetion, but no, they come on here and SLAM another outfitter and his hunter. Oh how a 9 year old was sooo sad. Later the father admited his 9 year old didn't even know about the FINDER's FEE right. Yet, oh my gawd, some one made a comment they didn't like and they all of a sudden were on the defense. Yet, they went on slamming the other outfitter and his client. Heck even accussed him of being a drunk roadhunter that couldn't find game for himself right??? It is because of this I am no having fun toying with the ol' posse. Are you one of them Nunya? And yet I toot my own horn eh? I could never hunt as good as the pros. I'm a nobody ain't I????

Here's something maybe some highschool dropout Governer Tag wannabe guide might need to know. If you are gonna sling mud on an international website, maybe you need to get some tuff skin and expect some mud slung back at you. If you are gonna keep on guiding these high profile controversial hunts, raking in your big paychecks, maybe you need to roll with the punches and stop your whinning eh?

And before I get accussed as Anti-guide one more flippin time, No, I am not anti-guide. As a matter of fact I have guided in the past and may one day do it again in the future. I have a lot of friends that are guides too. So, no, I am not anti-guide.
 
I don't understand why hunting bulls in July is worse than hunting them in the middle of the rut with a rifle when they have lost all senses and wariness. Sure they are pretty visible in July but there senses are 100 times more keen.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-07 AT 10:44PM (MST)[p]Spoken like a true cheerleader.

Rammu, why don't you "clue" us in on your infinite wisdom of chasing bulls in july? You spend so much money on habitat each year.. "way more then we would guess". You should know it all by now? You post as if you do. So please, enlighten us with your knowledge. I would really like to hear why h e is clueless.
 
Competition in an ecological sense occurs when two species or organisms are trying to use the same resource. In the case of the Gov. tag hunters killing elk before we can that is called preemptive competition. Using the resource before your "competitors" have a chance. Species or organisms that are competing need not even know the other exisists there just has to be two or more trying to utilize the same limited resource. Certainly elk are a limited resource especially big bulls. Sorry about that but I'm a biologist.

I just want to make it clear that I'm not (and I hope most other hunters are not) interested in competing with eachother in the "sports" sense of competition. Unfortunately that is exactly what some of these TV shows and videos have done to hunting.
 
KTM300, we are probably on the same page but I don't blame the TV shows and videos. I blame the hunter.

I don't blame Budwieser for drunk drivers or ice cream companies for high cholesterol and I don't blame people making money from hunting. I blame each of us hunters for allowing ourselves to sink to a point where we are not happy unless we kill a certain number of inches and we can't be happy for someone elses success. All of this other stuff is just a by product of this.
 
Yeah you are right. Good analogy. The Bud commercials never show people puking or crashing their cars. They all look so happy and there are always a bunch of smiling hot chicks. Funny how in real life it just doesn't work out so pretty.
 
I guess I'll pick the scab off this old wound.

I am a guide in the Eastern Sierra region of California. I specialize in Tule Elk and a specific late season known as "G3 Deer". I have been guiding this area for nearly 35 years.

My knowledge of the area is the result of being a 4th generation native; son, grandson and great grandson of outdoorsmen. Nobody here knows the area better than I and nobody spends more time out and about than I do.

We are remote........I know, I said California, but if you look at a map, you will find few places in the west with more open, public land than we have here. It is vast. 300 miles north of Los Angeles, 300 miles south of Reno.

Forty years ago, you could buy your license, buy your deer tag and hunt nearly anywhere you chose in this state. Local residents had it wired. Our backyard produced some of the largest trophy deer seen anywhere.

When the system changed to draws, specific zones and ultimately a point system, local access became a lottery and we could no longer count on hunting here. Pissed off? You bet. I was having to apply to hunt in MY home area and not being very lucky at the draw thing, I was only able to get a deer maybe every 5 years.

When "flatlanders" drew this area and failed to fill, I couldn't understand why not. When the auction tags went unfilled, I thought that was way stupid.

The tags went unfilled and so DFG, in their infinite wisdom deduced that there were not enough deer in the area for the hunter numbers, so they cut the tag quota in half, furthur reducing my odds of getting drawn.

I started helping hunters find their deer and DUH!!!!, I found myself actually hunting every year, almost everyday of the season. Ultimately, I became a registered, insured and licensed guide. I provide a necessary service, for a really low fee,(much to the ire of other outfitters in the area) simply so that I can hunt....I could care less if I get to kill anything, I have my share and the acual act of pulling the trigger, I now reserve for coyotes.

I now hunt or fish as much as I want all season. My real job is flexible and somewhat related, so the time thing is easy to work with for me. I am also a disabled Vietnam Vet, with a small disability pension.

I have watched this sport evolve into a really ugly situation with hi-tech and hi-dollar aspects. The situation is, most hunters still want the traditional hunt, but we have to take the good with the bad and make the most of it. If I have a client who wants a "Waldorf Astoria" deer hunt, I will provide it.

People coming here don't have time to learn where to begin looking, much less where to actually get on a deer. I have the time and knowledge to get their basic leg work done and get them on the right track....literally. What they choose to do with my information remains up to them and for the most part it is pretty cool to be a part of. I have met some of the greatest people in the world.

But like I said, I have seen it both ways. I have had clients that want to drive up to a buck, step out of the truck, shoot it and go home with only a picture. They leave the rack, meat and all the dirty work with me. Someone browbeat them into buying a tag at a banquet, but they really didn't want to hunt in the first place. If they could have called in an airstrike, they would have. Fortunately, these guys are rare and it don't take long to get rid of them.

I'm 60 years old and long since past judging people. I simply smile, congratulate and get paid, knowing full well that I am not much more than a poorly paid hooker.

The tag is filled, a deer, probably not in the gene pool anyway, is eliminated from this range and DFG is happy to leave the quota alone. I got to hunt a few more days and camp out in the woods on someone elses dime.

Judge me if you want, I could care less what you think. I know this ain't a perfect world, but I do what I can, to do what I want.
 
Nickman...I have no problem with someone like yourself guiding the regular joes and I doubt many others do either. Seems like you have the right perpective as well. You have my respect...
 
I'm going to re-hijack the post back to CouesSnipers original question- what the big deal about hunting animals in the velvet?

I think the consensus here is that most folks don't care about the velvet aspect. I for one do have a personal distast for killing big game animals- especially very special animals like the ones in question, before the've been able to finish growing their antlers. I'll probably get hounded with a lot of comments about the antlers don't matter, but if it weren't for the 400+ antlers on these bulls no one would even be talking about this, and this site wouldn't exist if there wasn't something magic about antlers. To me, and maybe others here who haven't put a finger on it yet, the killing of these bulls before their antlers were even done growing kinda smacks of taking a fruit before it's ripe, and in these cases, with the only motivation being to make sure and get it before someone else get's the chance to."It's MINE, all MINE HAhhhh Hahhhh Hahhhh Nobodys gonna take you away from me my precious" That's certainly their right- having purchased a special tag, but I for one prefer to wait and pick through what's left of the ripe apples, even if it means some of them will have worms. I am a big supporter of the Governor's tag concept and It's SUPPOSED to give the holder a VERY special oportunity. But if the license is good all year, why hunt in July?

I think it's a great point to compare these elk with the zillion deer that are taken in the velvet on a regular basis- what's the difference? I agree there is no difference really. I too hunt with a bow (as well as a rifle or muzzy), but I've never hunted deer in the velvet, it just doesn't appeal to me. I may get a lot of flack from true-blue Arrowsexuals but every time I see a huge buck killed in the velvet I cannot shake the thought "WOW, if only that buck had been allowed to finish and polish and stain that rack" Not to take anything away from bowhunters or their early hunt harvest, they're still beautiful- but to me- just a tiny bit sad like a premature baby. In my view the hunting season is a big pot of stew- and early bow hunter have to dig in before the taters are soft.

So there you have it CouseSniper- you found someone anti-velvet. I wish I had better reasons or at least was better able to articulate them, but they are what they are- and it's not like I lobby to get rid of the early bowhunts, there are a lot of reasons why the hunts take place when they do.

Power to all you fuzzyboner.

JohnQPubicbanner1.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-07 AT 09:20AM (MST)[p]In truth, the antlers were 'hard', they just still had fuzz on them, as is the case in 99% of the velvet antlered bucks killed by archers. Just because they have velvet still on, doesn't mean the antlers are 'soft', that is incorrect. Many, me included like the velvet look. This is one of MANY appealing aspects to bowhunting. When I see a picture of a velvet buck, I instantly assume it was an archery killed buck, which puts it in a different category than the rifle 'hard' antlered killed bucks, atleast in my view.

How many people can say they have killed a 400 class bull while in velvet? Perhaps this is why the hunters chose to do so, to make the trophy even more unique.

PRO
 
Pro- Maybe I missed some other post, but who said anything about velvet antlers being 'soft'? Antlers are made of bone, I think we all get that. But since you bring it up, velvet antlers are "soft" compared to finished antlers. Part of the process of transitioning from living growing flesh to hardened battle gear involves the ossification and filling-in of the matrix of small cavities that make up an antler when it's growing. (Especially at the tips and at the bases), The many large blood vessels that are needed to feed antlers are also converted and filled in with solid bone. I've handled as many velvet antlered deer and elk as the next guy, and I can tell you that they are not as strong, durable, and effectively "hard" as the finished product. They're like a building still under construction.

Maybe you mean to say that bowhunted bucks are usually so close to finishing that they've already "hardened'- I can agree with that but I never argued otherwise.

As to the rest of it, I understand that I'm in the minority in my thinking on the taking of animals in the velvet-I also prefer small perky natural breasts over big melon-round fake ones, and I think a mutt dog beats a pure bred. Fortunatley for me, in NM I can bowhunt deer in January when antlers are as God intended them to be.

Power to all you fuzzyboners, I'm not trying to claim you're somehow wrong. How many people can claim they killed a 400 class bull? Period?

JohnQPubicbanner1.jpg
 
"Maybe you mean to say that bowhunted bucks are usually so close to finishing that they've already "hardened'- I can agree with that but I never argued otherwise."

Exactly my point. And the two bulls in question where 'finished' as well, the Nevada bull was starting to peel already. You made it sound as if these bulls and most archery bucks are still growing at the time of their demise, I was merely pointing out that is not true.

"How many people can claim they killed a 400 class bull? Period?"

GOod point, however, if the opportunity is there and you have killed a 400 class before I could see the appeal of a velvet bull. Doesn't California have a velvet hunt for the Tule elk? I am still confused on the agnst of bull elk being in velvet, but MOST have no issue with bucks being taken in the velvet. MAkes no sense to me.

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-07 AT 02:51AM (MST)[p]Just to answer PRO's question regarding the California Tule Elk.

Technically, if someone bought an auction tag, there are usually only 3, the earliest you could take a bull would be July 28th to August 5th, in the Owens Valley.

These bulls rarely have any velvet left on them by that time.

The first regular archery period was August 11th to 19th and they stuck some pretty clean racks. Nothing special that I have seen.

The early auction tag season is because that is the ONLY time you can find a bull in this area whose rack isn't already busted up and Fish and Game wants to be sure, that after you stepped up to a $24,000 Elk tag, you had a shot at an intact rack.

Tule Elk are not native to this side of the Sierra and there is a serious mineral deficiency in their food supply that causes weak antlers. They still grow like crazy, get some great mass and good length, but will break off if they lay down wrong.

By the end of the first week of the rut.....nobody has a perfect rack left. By the end of October, they all look like Elands....maybe main beams with no branches. They are Rockin' hard at it right now. Found one today with a busted rear leg or hip.

We see assorted bulls in late December, every year, without a single flaw, no marks on the hide, nothing.....the're gay and hide out in some swish joint where nobody fights over anything. Generally 5 or 6 year olds, fairly lightweight racks. I'm damned if I know where they hang out.
 
Now that's funny-Gay Elk. I can just picture these elk tapping their feet at the local water hole to signal to other like minded bulls. brings forward the evolutionary question, Is it the gayness that makes California what it is, or is it California itself that makes the gayness?

Nice post.

JohnQPubicbanner1.jpg
 
Would a Gay 400'' bull be considered as good a trophy as a Hetero 400'' bull?
Maybe if you shoot him in july, nobody would know he was gay! Because everyone knows a gay bull doesnt scrape the velvet off -- hurts too much.
 
The general consensus in this area is that it would be OK to shoot a 400" gay bull providing that he has NO gold lamme' velvet left showing.

It's a fashion code......you can't wear velvet at all after July 4th. Don't you know nothin'?

Gay bulls rub each others antlers until they are "pretty".

Some guys here in Ca. won't shoot one of any trophy category unless the shoes and purse both match..........their's and the bulls.
 
HEHEHE
Thanx for the info. We dont know much about gay bulls here in Utah, the ones that are here are afraid to come out. Utah bulls did, however, start the practice of gathering a "harem". It has since caught on everywhere (with the exception of california, Of course). Just thought you would like to know.
 

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