What's your take?

BUCKSPY

Very Active Member
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Wyoming has one of the most bogus laws I've ever heard of in that non-resident hunters cannot hunt in the wilderness without a guide or a resident. Any granola-eating, tye-dye wearing, non-armpit shaving militant lesbian activist can spend a month there crappin' in the high country while living out of their backpacks but you and I are banned come hunting season.

Question is that if a non-resident with a valid tag knowingly hunts during the correct season and kills a trophy class buck in the designated wilderness without a guide or resident, is it poaching?
 
"Question is that if a non-resident with a valid tag knowingly hunts during the correct season and kills a trophy class buck in the designated wilderness without a guide or resident, is it poaching?"

IMO...YES!

It's a bogus law, but it's the law like it or not.

What do the rest of you think?

Later,
 
NO !!

I've hunted lots of times in wyoming wilderness as a nonres with no guide and I would be more than willing to challenge them in court. It is BS and a result of a powerful outfitter and guide lobby. Your hippy analogy is a good one.

I'm not much but I don't consider it poaching.

JB
 
Frequently asked question and answer on the Wyoming DOW site.
I knew Alaska was like that but would never have guessed Wyoming.
What a bunch of crap that is.
Ban Wyoming residents from hunting states that do not have there stupid rule and see how long it lasts.
Best,
Jerry

Q. Is it true nonresidents cannot hunt in national forest wilderness areas without a guide?

A. Basically, that''s right. Wyoming statute says nonresidents must have a licensed guide or resident companion to hunt big or trophy game in national forest wilderness areas. The resident companion will need to get a free non-commercial guide license from a G&F office. The law does not prohibit nonresidents from hiking, fishing or hunting game birds or coyotes in wilderness areas. Only nonresident big and trophy game hunters must have a licensed guide or resident companion.

STUPID!!!!!!!
 
If its poaching, i guess im a poacher.
I wasn't even aware of that law.
what bullsh!t
 
I have friends who were born and raised in Wyoming , moved out of state , and would have to hire a guide to go back and hunt in country they know better than the guide they hire !!!
 
BUCKSPY~ This subject has been hashed and rehashed on here before, but it deserves repeating. Its one of the most asinine restrictive hunting laws out there. My opinion holds for Alaska as well. Same principles apply there as here in the lower 48. It keeps the outfitters pockets lined, and the average citizen from freely hunting public land big game they can get tags for, but have to jump through the outfitter hoop to get to.
 
I wouldn't think it was considered poaching. More like tresspassing? except it's public land? now that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. What's the penalty if you're caught, Buckspy? Does it say in the regs?

WH
 
I wouldnt consider it poaching in the traditional sense but it is a law violation of some sort. As to Alaska, at least there is some justification up there due to the harsh weather/climate. You dont need a guide for all species in Alaska (I didnt for sitka blacktail deer) but for brown bear and other big game you do.......Wyoming's law in my opinion is stupid........ Allen Taylor......
 
AK's law is pretty stupid, also. I'm heading up there in 2 months to hunt moose, caribou, and black bear self-guided. I cannot shoot a brown bear without a guide. I don't see the difference, considering I'll be right in the middle of brown bear country, and all the same dangers that exist if I was hunting them. I think the same law applies to Dall Sheep.
 
Not sure it is poaching, but is definately breaking the law.

The fact that you can fish and hunt birds and coyotes really tells you the story. It is ok to hunt, just as long as it is not for animals that guides make their living from.

The example of someone who grew up there is a great example of why this is a bad law.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I have a few questions.
I agree that these laws are pretty stupid, but what can be done about them? Are they inforced?
I figure that most of the people here at MM could do OK on their own in the wilderness of Wyoming, but there are a lot of idiots out there who can't. Growing up in Montana, I heard about a couple Californians who showed up at the local gas station to brag about "the big black deer" (moose) they just shot. Just a couple of years ago near Great Falls, MT, some non-resident showed up to the taxidermist's with a LLama he had just shot and put his deer tag on. These guys wouldn't last overnight at the KOA campground.
My point is this, WE all may be able to survive very well without a guide, but aren't there some idiots who need it? If they are dumb enough to head into the hills without any knowledge of survival, do they deserve to spend a few nights cold and hungry? Is this even a valid concern, or is this law just for the outfitter's benefit? I sell real estate and don't know of any state laws that guarantee me new clients. Maybe I'm in the wrong profession.
Could a quick online class be required for non-residents before they are allowed to hunt in the wilderness? In Utah, they require archery hunters to take an online ethics course before they can hunt in the Wasatch Front Extended Archery area.
Would this be enough to educate the idiots and allow the MM type of people to hunt freely?
 
Well I guess I'll stand up and take a smack on this one.

Here is my perspective. I believe the law is based on money. Here are a few facts to consider:

Wyoming has among the lowest population density of the states

Wyoming has among the lowest per capita income of the states

Wyoming has among the highest percent public land of the states

Speaking as a resident of Wyoming, this means our ability to generate revenue for our people and to take care of public works such as roads and landfills (that non-residents use) is severly limited and poor. Throw in the fact that an increasing measure of private land as large ranches in the mountainous areas is in the hands of wealthy non-residents, and it gets pretty tough for an outfitter to make a living.

The wilderness outfitter law may not stand up if challenged, but I am glad it is for now. It helps bring money to this state. If we could make the non-res granola munchers pay too I bet we would.

If I were a non-resident I would be bitching too. But you have to be resident to truly appreciate what I am saying.

Go ahead...hack on me.
 
I hunted the north part of G last year and looked across the Snake River into H and some of the 'wilderness areas'. It didn't look any different then the country I was hunting. I'm fortunate enough to have a friend that lives in WY and can take me into H legally if we draw. It is politics as usual and is frustrating for us non-residents. We're seeing more and more of states battling it out with neighboring states and non-resident hunters. Here in MN, we're feuding with ND because of some waterfowl issues and the amount of non-residents they are letting in.

Just get it resolved and make it fair for everyone.

huntertj
 
Its true there are plenty of idiots out there who would freeze to death at the KOA, but just because it is not designated "wilderness area" doesn't mean the country isn't just as deadly. It doesn't make sense to allow "Unguided non-residents" in all parts of the state except wilderness areas. Isn't wilderness a federal designation? I can hunt the wilderness here in Idaho all I want but step across the state boundary and I need a guide?
 
Safety is not the issue, it is a red herring. Oufitters and guides want the law to force more business their way. I don't blame them, I'm just not going to participate.

JB
 
Buckspy it would be hard to catch someone illegal, I know of a guy who had guys on a horse chasing him to check him out. I just wouldnt park your 4x4 at the tailhead with COLORADO PLATES.
 
I know its a stupid law and its not fair, but does that mean its ok to thumb your nose at the law? BTW. I've drawn H twice and haven't stepped foot into the designated wilderness.
 
as someone said those guys would die at the KOA well maybe it time the gene pool took a jump up. What there isn't any dumb people in Wyoming, I guess they all moved to California and now return to camp at the KOA in Wyoming. LMAO. I know if I go into the back country I'm a fisherman I just happened to kill this buck on the way out. But I wasn't hunting just fishing. dumb Law need to be repealed or make all who use the back country pay the same: EXP: birdwatchers, birdhunters, fisherman,hikers,campers, Why just hunters,because if they charged everyone the same as hunters, the State would end up losing a lot of business from those same groups.Wyoming wouldn't be a travel spot for many.
 
Buckspy, beings your one of those upper crust, Colorado governors tag type guides, why don't you quit your rant & fill out an application to be recognized as a guide in Wyoming, I think you could fill out all the particulars, during some of your down time there at the station,
If you need any references I'll vouch for you,
just as long as your not guiding for Coues, since you obviously don't know, jack chit, concerning them.
Hell you could broaden your horizons some as well,
Just a thought ! x(
 
This issue was brought before the courts 2 years ago. The first court decision was infavor of the the law and the outfitters, then on appeal, the next court also upheld the ruling. This law is a joke. Take your shotgun and fishing pole, but leave the big game tags at home.

If you go into the wilderness areas to hunt, just pray that the guy who checks you is a good ole boy. There are some officers who beleive the law is BS and they won't do a thing to you. Then there are the idiots who will throw the book at you, fines, confiscate game animals, rifles. There are plenty of WY guys who will turn anyone in, especially those UT plates at the trail head. I don't consider it poaching.

If you speed, say 75 mph in a 55 mph zone, to get to your hunting spot because you woke up late; and just as you pull up to your spot a buck is just starting to walk into the tress and you shoot him, Is that poaching? I mean, you just broke a law which allowed you to shoot the buck.
 
it might be a bad law but i have spent two opening days in incampment leading lost out of staters out of billy creek. it ruined my opening mornings. one time i couldn't even get him to stay with me tell my other hunters finnished a drive down a ridge to us he had a cow tag and i'm sure we would have saw elk.
I had to walk him back to my truck and take him back to his camp..
he could have walked 250 yards up hill and hit the main road.
my answer to the problem would be to have a test of there wilderness skills. unfortunatly some folks can't find there way around the block and its those folks we worry about.
we might be rednecks but we don't like looking for lost people.
 
Does it have any basis on the fact that Wyoming has grizzlies which are more of a problem for big game hunters than others? I know Montana has them also, but that is the only logical reason I can think of for Wy requiring it just for big game hunters other than just the guide lobby.
 
Here is another question? Is the wilderness not Federal land? I pay federal taxes Like the rest of wyo residents.........
 
As much as I cant stand the law I would think that it would have to be considered poaching if you knowingly hunted that country and did not follow all of the laws. Its kind of like a "No Trespassing" sign from the state of WY.

Drum
 
BLT,

If your not from Wyoming you most likely pay a hell of alot more in federal taxes than the average wy. resident. Remember the previous post that said they are the poorest state and need the outfitters income?

JB
 
BUCKSPY,

I'm a Wyoming outfitter, and I have always said that this law in wrong and unfair. BUT - it does exist and it is enforced. Both Forest Service folks and the Game Wardens are always looking for violators and the fines are steep. A couple of years ago, they caught a guy from Louisiana just into the wilderness area on his 4 wheeler, near where we outfit. They took his rifle, his ATV and the took him to Cheyenne, where he appeared (after an overnight stay in jail) before the federal magistrate. The fine was steep and he lost both his ATV and gun.

Bottom line, most people agree that this is a bad law, but it is enforced and it is expensive to get caught. And you might think that you can get away with going in the wilderness, but the people looking for you are pretty well-schooled in catching violators for this. I would recommend that you stay within the legal limits of the law.

Like I said, I don't agree with or like the law, but it is the law and it has stood up in court. It makes no sense that I can go hunt the wilderness in Colorado, but you can't do the same in Wyoming.
 
While I can see the point of view for both sides of this issue, personally I'd have to say it is NOT poaching based on the fact that you have the correct tag and you are in season. I would also say that if you got caught they would try to ticket you for trespassing, although I think that could be beat in court. On a personal note, I don't think I'd challenge the law and stay out of the wilderness area.. sucks though. I have a couple of questions though..

1. If you have a guide do a drop camp does it meet this law requirement?

2. If you have a Wyoming resident "guide" you does this count as a guide?

Thanks
 
sounds like the outfitters or outfitter are in pretty tight with law-makers up there. oh well doesn't suprise me much,
It's against the law in Utah to have oral sex, married or not
go figure.
 
Vince,

It is not poaching but rather a violation of the law restricting nonresident access to wilderness areas. Like others have stated, it is a law that is on the books and will be enforced. People speculate that it is simply to benefit the Outfitter Industry. I disagree. Who is liable for locating hunters should they get lost? Whos is it that needs to abandon their hunt to look for others? It will most likely fall back on the residents to go look for those which are lost. The law is biased against hunters, but I do believe it has a lot to do with the added problems associated with hunting. Furthermore, I believe it does have a lot to do with Grizzly Bears. Most of you have probably heard or read stories about grizzly bears chasing gun shots in the back country. Last I heard, most other activities don't attract bears as hunting does. It is not a big problem although it may seem unfair to nonresidents. Perhaps something should be done to get the USFS to impose restrictions on the other recreational activities that are currently unrestricted. If you thought the law was there to benefit the Outfitter Industry I can guarantee you that these activities would also require guides. Besides, the Outfitters would probably appreciate your help in getting these additional restrictions in place.

I'm unsure whether or not outfitters can do a drop camp but I believe that would be a viable alternative for those which desire to hunt in the wilderness areas. Contact some of the Outfitters which operate in wilderness areas before you show up for your hunts though as that may not be an alternative.

It should also be stated for those that believe you need to access the wilderness in order to find big game animals that Wyoming is a BIG state which offers a lot of prime hunting, not all of which is located within the wilderness areas or regions G & H.

You can always try and challenge the law, but it has been upheld thus far. No one has posted anything that hasn't been tried todate. You will probably get more benefit from researching areas to hunt rather than attempting to change the way in which Wyoming regulates hunting and those that participate.
 
I have done some research on this law. The law was passed many years ago to protect and bring revenue to the outfitters, nothing more. The law was NOT passed to protect hikers from grizzley bears and/or getting lost. If this were the case, it would pertain to all outdoor enthusiasts not just hunters. Please do NOT read that into the purpose of this law. As long there are people who try put reason in it's purpose, the longer this ancient law will stay in place. It is very out of date and needs to be revised. It is NOT poaching and I don't blame anyone for challenging a law that is so blatantly wrong.
 
Webster's says "Poaching is the act of hunting for fish or game illegally, or trespassing for the purpose of taking fish or game illegally." Since the law states it is illegal to hunt in the Wilderness area as a non-resident, if you were to hunt for big game in the wilderness, you would be committing the very definition of poaching.

Is it fair? No. Is it illegal? Yes. Is it then poaching? Yes.

I don't agree with the law at all, but no matter how you look at it, it is poaching.

Corey
 
TopWater225 is right. The law's only purpose is to generate revenue for outfitters. If that were not true, the law would apply to residents as well. Residency has absolutely nothing to do with a persons ability to handle a wilderness hunt safely.
 
Buglelk,

I know what you are saying, but there is some common sense that plays into this issue. It is anything but a black and white definition of a particular word. Also, I forgot to mention that
the Wyoming Fish & Game officer whom I spoke to great length told me that it is not treated as poaching. If, and only if a person was cited, it would be the equivalent of a tresspass citation. The fine could very well be stiff, but that would be up to the Judge.
Let me clarify something as well. I am not saying all non-residents should go out of their way to hunt the wilderness just to prove a point. I for one, have never hunted the wilderness. It is just this very discussion that has ultimately made my blood boil to the point that I had to do my own investigation.
 
Buckspy,
A few things you need to know:
1. A guide or outfitter does not have to be a resident of Wyoming to guide a non-resident hunter in a wilderness area. Look in the outfitter's directory and you will find several outfitters who live in other states and take hunters into wilderness areas.

2. Wyoming does have a loophole if you want to hunt in a wilderness area without hiring a guide. You may hunt with a resident hunter in a wilderness area if you go to a Game and Fish District office and fill out the form they have. You can do that in Pinedale.

3. I think it was in 1970 that the law was changed, but before that hunters had to hire an outfitter or guide to hunt on all Forest Service lands, not just designated wilderness areas.

4. For every story I hear about non-residents being lost, shooting over their limit of game, I can give you stories about resident hunters doing the same, and I'm talking about people who were born here, know the country, culture and traditions and yet are buffoons the type of which would put Elmer Fudd to shame.

In my opinion, outfitters exist to serve hunters and that's what they are there for. I personally do not own the horses and tack to take multi-day trips 20 and 30 miles into the backcountry, but when I draw a sheep permit, you can bet I will and I am looking at outfitters now that I may hire in 3-4 years.
 
I guess I have to look at it this way. Is it FEDERAL LAND? If it is federal land then we all own it and I consider it a bad law. If it's STATE land then I feel the state has the right to make laws to protect and/or make money off the land the state owns.
 
During hunting season that Federal land is patrolled by STATE employees and the game that utilizes that Federal land must be managed by a STATE agency, one that is completley self funded I might add. I also think it is a bullshit rule and that same bullshit rule is discussed every singly year here. But guess what, its still a law that must be abided by or the consequences paid. Plain and simple.

Mike
at235.gif
 
If coyote hunting is allowed during the deer season without a guide in wilderness and you guys that dare to hunt it get caught by a warden or forest service just say you were coyote hunting and also trying to take pictures of the well established wolf pack that the wolf loving hippies brought in.
On a serious note I think the law needs to be changed also but for now I wont risk getting caught in the wilderness. I would rather get a resident to go with me or get a guide. Who could enjoy the hunt looking over your shoulder everytime you heard something human or horse like. Just do it legal until they change the laws. Dont let this stupid law make your hunt any more expensive than it allready is.
JUST MY TWO CENTS.
 
back in the mid 80's I was talking to a biologist from Chyanne who's probably retired by now but he told me to hunt a certain area in a wilderness area and to chalenge that law cause it was wrong, young and dumb as I was back then I did, but I never killed anything in there...
 
If a Man and a Women from Wyoming get divorced are they still Brother and Sister?



Go Rams,

BeanMan
 
"Any granola-eating, tye-dye wearing, non-armpit shaving militant lesbian activist can spend a month there crappin' in the high country while living out of their backpacks"

Now that is friggin hillarious. I needed a good belly laugh today. That was the best description of a typical left coast individual I have ever heard.

I do not think it is poaching. It is Government land "By the people for the people" Even though "Government Land" other than that used in the defence of our country is a Socialist ideal. But it would be poaching on private land.

"We MUST Hunt""
 
First of all let me say hi to everyone. This is my first post however I have been reading almost daily on monstermuleys for the past year. Now to the topic at hand. First of all I can't believe that the law was made simply to help outfitters. I have hunted in a wilderness area for the past 5 years and I have seen exactly 0 guides or guide camps set up anywhere nearby. Second of all I think that we have a lot of hypocrites on here. Everyone is always talking about ethics and poaching and now since it is convenient for you it isn't poaching when a nonresident shoots an animal in a wilderness area without a guide or resident with them???? Come on. The definition of poaching was posted on here already. There is no gray area, poaching is poaching. Regardless of whether you get charged with poaching for committing this crime it is still poaching. I'm not saying I agree with this law at all, cause I don't. I had a friend come from back east last year and to be legal I had to go get my noncommercial guide license and be with him at all times. This is just my 2 cents worth. Probably not the best message to start out with cause somebody will try to rip into me and will be angry that I start off with such a strong opinion.

Thanks,
Tim
 
What you have is the courage of your convictions. Nothing wrong at all with going out on a limb, especially when your limb is strong and straight. Sometimes its hard having a set of balls, but its better than being a skirt wearer trapped in a man's body. Life's full of disclaimers for the weak. "I couldn't kill this monster buck without breaking the laws and buying resident tags as a non-resident and or hunting in the wilderness without a guide or a resident tag-a-long but put me on the cover of the Rolling Stone."

Hell yes its bogus, BS and just downright wrong to have that law in place, but there are also a few other stupid laws on the books out there. Like leaving the nut sack attached to the carcass of a 30" buck just to prove "evidence of sex" here in Colorado. Blaze orange in muzz season when there is a concurrent archery season and camoflauge clad archers running around.

I have had a Region H tag twice in the last decade and have yet to set foot in a wilderness area.
 
Some people state this law is because of the grizzlies in the area. How does a grizzly bear distinguish between a resident kill and a nonresident kill? Maybe both nonresidents and residents need the aid and help of a guide/outfitter to control these bears! That should really increase the outfitters buiseness.
 
I remember reading a story about 6-7years ago around 98 or so about 4 guys(2 of them was lawyers from back east) who hunted back in the Bob Marshall and they got tickets for not having a guide, they took it to court and before the court date it got dismissed, The Fish & game decide not to challenge the law in court,Due to the fact they didn't know if they would win and if they losted then it would really open up a can of worms, If I drew a tag I would hunt the area and take the ticket, Then I would have to decide if I wanted to fight it in courts.I wonder if their has been anyone who has been ticketed in the last couple of years, and what was the outcome of their cases.
 
Everyone needs to understand it is NOT JUST GAME AND FISH patrolling the area AND NOT JUST A FINE. The areas are patrolled, at least on the perimeters by Forest Service personnel. And in addition to the fines, they can and will CONFISCATE AND KEEP your rifle, binoculars, etc. As I previously mentioned, a guy from Louisiane lost his ATV, rifle and more. Wyoming's Game and Fish laws were changed a few years ago to allow for the confiscation of personal property for violation of the state laws.

As I've said, it's a dumb law and it makes no sense, but it is one you should obey. It has been tested and has held up in court.

And by the way, if those guys were hunting the Bob Marchall in Wyoming, they should take a close look at their maps and licenses. Last I knew, the Bob is way north of our state line.
 
i think all nonresidents(and not just hunters)should have to hire a guide to go beyond the right of way fence along the interstate. seriously, its a bs law, but its probably not going anywhere.
 
I hunted in the wilderness area at baby lake outside of encampent 4 years ago and what ICMdeer said is true. There were forest service and game wardens everywhere. Being a non-resident it was pretty clear to me that if you tried hunting in that wilderness area they would catch you in no time flat. I was with a guide so no issue on my side. The part I don't understand is if the law was created to help guides, how come they don't have pool of tags like the guides in Nevada? On a side note I agree that is a bad law. What would make more sense is having a pool of tags for the guides. I can't see how those folks can make a living when that don't have a chance at repeat customers because of the difficulty in drawing tags. Maybe they could do something with the leftover tags????
 
i'm surprised to hear of "patrolling" around the encampment area wilderness areas. i never see anyone. i hunt the encampment river wilderness alot, and never see anyone to enforce this law. i've been taking nonres freinds and family in for years, and i've never went and got the non commercial guides license either.
 
Sam,
you've been lucky. The game warden actually came to our camp and we were in there aways on horseback. I went out after I got my elk and was just tooling around taking pictures and saw the forest service on two or three different access roads. On a side note my truck had out of state plates and that might have been why they came in and checked also.
 
My partner and I were lucky enought to hook up with two locals and hunted with them in the wilderness area on a elk hunt. the locals secured the non fee guide permit so that we could go with them. Outside of that or hiring a guide, a non-resident is out of luck on hunting the wilderness area in WY.
This law was passed to please the outfitters and guides in WY. and the blame for the insane law lies at their doorstep. It was a way for them to force non-residents to hire guide service and pay the fees for that service.
RELH
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-10-04 AT 11:57PM (MST)[p]Yep, definitely a stupid law. However, I wouldn't hesitate to turn someone in who was breaking the law. On the flipside, I've never run into a non-rez up in the high country who didn't have a guide. Also, someone noted this law has been challenged. I don't think thats the case. To my knowledge, this law has never been challenged in a Wyoming court or appealed to the Wyoming Supreme court. Some of you high rollers ought to pool yer dough and take a shot at the outfitters association and their law. Some might say they're basically a bunch of opportunistic hunting nazi's who feel the State owes them a living. I certainly wouldn't disagree...
 
if the law is stupid, why would u turn someone in? Please don't say "because it is against the law". If that is the case, you Should run radar on the highway, and call in speeders who break the law. Speeding is illegal.
 
Also, keep in mind that the law for cattle rustling in Utah is still punishable by hanging. There is a lot of grey area in this issue, and I sure wish someone would challenge it in a court of law. My bet is that it would be dismissed as quick as the judge finished reading the last sentence of the case discription.
 
In my opinion, for what it's worth,there is no other reason for
the law than to make money for the outfitters, at least the restrictions on hunters in alaska serve a purpose,(to save some
guy from falling of a cliff hunting sheep or goats, or eaten alive by a 1000lb bear) all wyoming has done is make a private hunting preserve for residents and those willing to pay.
 
Wouldn't one think that the outfitter's that do NOT guide in wilderness areas would want this law changed as well. That would spread out hunting pressure by those not using guides (more non-residents in the wilderness and less outside of it) and potentially increase the quality of game in their non-wilderness hunting areas. Just a thought.

Nino
 
Yes Manny, that is true. The only province that allows non-resident aliens to hunt without a guide is Ontario. But keep in mind Canada is not a part of the Union like Wyoming is. :) I'm sure there are many other countries with the same rule as well. Most countries in Africa come to mind. I'm sure one could argue the outfitter's benefit here as well, but I look at it as a benefit to every BC resident hunter and to our wildlife. We don't have every Tom, #####, and Harry from all over the world competing for the same animals. There is a reason why our wildlife populations are at record highs and the hunting opportunities are World Class.
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