380's the new 350

[Dobie07]

This may sound crazy to some, but it seems to me that more often than not people are overscorin' big bulls like crazy these days. I mean I can remeber 10 years ago or so a 400+ bull was pretty much unheard of, and if you told someone you saw a bull you thought was that big you'd probly be laughed at. Back then any time someone saw an excellent bull and had no idea what he'd score the average guess was 350-380 max. Well nowadays if you see a monster bull it's always "he's atleast 380 prolly pushin 400." What's up with that? Is it because there have been alot more 400 type bulls shot in recent years and people are just badly overguessing the big bulls they see? Or are there really like 5 or six 400 type bulls running around in each unit? Ex: I had an archery bull tag in a good unit in az not one of the top units, but a good unit none-the-less. While scouting and hunting I saw probably all told 50-75 bulls. And I can honestly say that probably only one bull was pushing the 360-370 mark. Yet every person I ran into during my hunt said they had seen "two or three bulls that were 380+, and atleast one that had to be a certified 400 bull." However none of them had seen anywhere near the number of bulls I was seeing. So whats going on there? I'm not really that terrible at scoring bulls am I? I'm not really underscoring every bull by like 30 inches am I? Or did these guys just all happen to see all these monster bulls, and I didn't? Anyways i will take a step down off my soap box now guys, just wanted to throw that out there, and get your thoughts.

 

[Chesterwyo]

I couldn't agree more it drives me absolutly crazy when people embelish scores. I think a lot of it is ego trip. People talk about 400 inch bulls and 30 inch bucks like they are very common and the fact of the matter is they are not.

 

[ktc]

I let it go in one ear and out the other. I always wait for pictures.

 

[CAelknuts]

Most guys who talk about 400" bulls have never killed a 320 bull. Most guys don't have a clue how gigantic a 400" bull is. Same goes with big deer. How often do you see a buck in a magazine that they say scores 200", and he looks to be a 170s kinda buck?

It happends way to often. 190" bucks and 370" bulls are very few and far between. 200" and 400" is much less common than 190 and 370". They're RARE.

 

[azscouter]

Just to step in. I have never harvested a bull but have seen some 380 to 400 class bulls and know what they look like. I have helped several successful hunters harvest a 372 net 6x6 typical, a 388 net 8x7 non typical and we were able to harvest a 366 net typical 6x6 last year in unit 10 with the drought conditions. This year I have 3 bulls located in a not so popular unit that are pushing 380 one of which we figure will net right around 390 as a typical 7x7. I am not saying that these animals are not rare it is just that if one is to put in alot of time in a unit there are those quality of bulls in every unit in AZ and in other states.

 

[slamdunk]

I do beleive that there is a tendency to over score a bull on the hoof when they get to that 350 and better range. Bulls just look huge when they get that size and the excitement factor can and does definately kick in.
HOWEVER-
As "azscouter" just said, there are great bulls these days in every unit in every elk state due to great management practices, primarily in AZ & UT.
I can't speak much for AZ, but here in UT it is said that there are bulls in the 380" and better class in every LE unit we have now, and most units have 400's...that's a fact, even on the public grounds LE units. Some LE units have a handful of 400" bulls, while others may have only one, but the fact is we are growing some fantastic bulls these days and harvesting a dozen or more 400+ bulls here every year as of late.
Having said that, i do beleive MOST of the 380's talk of these days are generally true for the most part, but there are always going to be "tape stretchers" forever.

 

[isayNUNYA]

Yes its true, saw 2 400+ inchers this morin.

 

[Rammu]

IsayNunya.. WEll good for you pal! So proud of you! You couldnt hold back the anxiousness to say it could you?

 

[isayNUNYA]

I was gonna say F-U Rammu but that rhymes and I'm not a poet.
Bye, out the door to check on them bulls.

 

[overton]

Glad to see I not the only one. Thought I was the only western hunter not to see a 400 bull on the hoof on a regular basis. Can also say I've never seen a 400 on the hoof.

Ransom

 

[isayNUNYA]

400 inch bulls are pretty hard to come by. There was alot of sarcasm in my first post. Some people have a hard time seeing it though. bye

 

[slamdunk]

Well in my previous reply, i surely wasn't implying that i have personally seen 400" bulls all over Utah either, i was simply saying that they are undoubtedly here and quite a few at that. Look how many were taken just last year in this state alone, over a dozen!
I have worked and guided for one of the best outfitters in the west for 13 years now and have personally only seen one "true" 400" bull, and that was in Nevada on the Shell Creek range. But here in Utah i have seen, guided and killed several 370-390 class bulls, but i'm still workin on getting that first 400, maybe this year....maybe never.

 

[tmbrlinewarden]

I agree with the original post- every picture put out here on MM gets half the folks saying "400 for sure" peaves me as well to see dead bulls overscored.

I will second what slamdunk said though, and add NM's Gila units to the list of places where 400's crawl around all the time. I've flown elk surveys in unit 15 and 16 (and 13 and 17) and we usually see about 4-5 400inch butt scratchers a day (and I lay eyes,hands, and tape to many bulls every year) Much of that can be attributed to LE areas being managed specifically to insure bucks/bulls can get that old/big. But many 350 bulls are killed in those NM units that are only 4-5 years old so it obviously has a genetic/nutritional component to it.

The country I work in now holds a lot of elk but probably hasn't had a 400 bull live here in decades, maybe ever. a 380 would merit a parade in the Plaza (and there are several huge ranches that manage conservativly). I can see how someone born and raised here would have a hard time believing stories of all the "400" bulls spoken of by folks down in the Gila.

http://www.naweoa.org/mod.php?mod=userpage&page_id=15&menu=1500

 

[Rammu]

ISaynunya.. Thanks for the big F-U! I knew I could pull it outta ya! Your a good man no matter what youve been told!

 

[huntindude]

In a way 400+ bulls are a little like Sasquatch, lots of sightings but nobody has a verified one.

Sure every year 400+ bulls are officially scored but not very many. probably one 400 bull is entered in the book for every 500 we hear about.

In fact B&C is considering lowering the minimum score for elk if that tells you anything, we're in a sweet time for trophy elk these days and entry numbers aren't reflecting it. 350 is still a darn nice bull if it's a real 350.

 

[ELKMAN]

308,

WHY ARE YOU SO WORRIED?

THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOREVER.

MINE IS BIGGER THEN YOURS ETC. DO YOU NEED TO VALIDATE YOURSELF... YOUR BULL IS BETTER THEN MINE.

 

[slamdunk]

WHAT!!!???
"400" bulls are much like sasquatch, not very many are verified"?
First off, there IS no Sasquatch.
Second, how many 400" bulls have been taken in the western states in the last let's say 5 years??
If i had time this morning too dig up that info, i'm SURE i'd come up with at LEAST 25-30 400" taken in that time period. Like i said earlier, over a dozen were taken just last year in Utah alone! Of those, how many will actually make the net 375", we'll just have to wait till the books are updated too see that.
About the books being considered for lowering the minimum on elk? Show me where THAT info came from and i'll bite my tongue, but that is totally absurd! Bulls are bigger than ever these days, why lower it so a 365" (just a number guess) can make it in?
As for the comment about not very many of these 400's are being entered, take a look at how much the placings have changed in the last ten years on elk, and they are not updated every year ya know. Wait till the next one comes out, the top five will surely be bumped around a bit, and the top 20 will surely get severly scrambled as well!

 

[overton]

Slamdunk

A Utah LE tag would be great, however I might not live long enough to draw one. I'm sure the 400 and over bulls are out there, just have not had the luck of drawing a premium tag. Maybe I'll just go on a photo hunt, take a photo of a huge one and then have a taxidermist recreate one like they do marlin. Probably my best shot at a 400 bull. In baseball only a few have batted 400, if my calculations are correct I would have batted about 322.

Ransom

 

[overton]

By the way can anyone recommend a magnum sized camera for my photo shoot?

 

[slamdunk]

I'm with ya overton, i'll never see an ek LE tag in this state either, shooting them with camera is also my only way of getting one.

Actually, this is exactly why i got into guiding.
I'll never be able to afford a good tag for myself, but i sure am have fun filling my guiding portfolio with all these big bucks & bulls that i'm responsible for!!

And i DO pack my big camera all the time, one never knows when he's going to run into a sasquatch!!

 

[huntindude]

Slamdunk,
I'm a B&C O/M who lives in elk country and I can tell you most 400 bulls are more like 350 when they hit the ground and the tape gets on them. lots of fish stories out there, you know hunters. sure we get some true 400+ bulls every year but we are in the best elk hunting era we've ever known , so to say 400 not a real big deal isn't really true. if you look at the number of fine bulls being taken these days and the number of B&C entries you'll see the bar is pretty high for elk compaired to other species. in my opinion anyone who takes a 350 bull on any hunt other than the few super fantastic units has done well, very well.

B&C is talking of changing the minimums on several animals, a few up and a few down. change comes slow in the organization so we'll have to watch and see.

 

[slamdunk]

yes i totally understand that huntindude.
I also realize that MOST of these 400" bulls are "gross" score. but the point i am making is that there are WAY more 400" talk of bulls being taken in the western states than ever before. It takes one h*ll of a bull to net the 375" minimum, beleive me i know.
A lot of these 400" bulls seem to have extra points that take them up that high, but none the less, today it's becoming a common thing to see bulls like this. Still one heck of a feat no doubt, but they are in every magazine out there and almost every issue has at least one story, unlike the old days when a 350 "gross" was a monster.

So tell me this, are they lowering the minimums on elk?
Again, i feel that would be absurd in "this era of elk hunting"....IMO.

 

[slamdunk]

Case in point-
look at the post of ANOTHER 400" bull take this year that just popped up.
That's 3 that i know of so far, and it's only the middle of august!!
"400 inch bulls are sort of like sasquatch"?
So far there are have been 3 "sasquatch's" taken and no word of anything less! Pretty high odds for something that is so "rare", gross score or not!
There's just no denying all the monster bulls of today!

 

[huntindude]

Well the talk is to lower the minimum on Dall sheep and elk and raise it on Shiras moose and maybe pronghorn. I'm not saying it will happen but it's being talked about. as you say the elk hunting is great right now, but the number of 375+ bulls being recorded isn't very high compaired to other species being entered so maybe the bar is a little high. the idea of the B&C records keeping is to recognize the best of the species but not to set a goal that's unreasonable, 375 net is a harder goal to meet than it should be in many hunters opinion even today. if when this cycle of monster bulls runs out they're going to lower the minimum anyway why not do it now? I may be a little biased as my Utah bull missed the all time by a couple points.

 

[overton]

I can't say there is a sasquatch but I saw bigfoot! He was at the county fair jumping and smashing cars! I think he was blue and I know he was tall. Didn't get a good look at the driver.

 

[slamdunk]

I can definately sympathize with ya huntindude.
I have a 203 buck that nets 176.
Still a hawg in anyone's eye's, except for the official books.
Si o say..."what's in a book other than notoriety"?
I'll never pass on an aninal just because he won't net.
I've said it before and i'll say it again...."net's are for fish"

 

[huntindude]

I agree , I don't hunt to get my name in the book but it gives you an idea of what your goal is, that's why it needs to be realistic but not easy. B&C is hard on some trophies with the way we score but perfection is the goal , all in all it's a good system.

I've scored bulls that I knew were way under the awards book for guys . probably the happiest guy I ever scored an elk for had a net green score of 337, he was as happy as most guys would have been with a 400 bull. that's what it's all about.

 

[slamdunk]

Yep, i totally agree!
When i'm guiding a client for elk, even on our "cream of the crop best lease" and i get a client that stuck on score, it kind of deflates me, yet puts a ton of pressure on me as well.
I have killed and taped enough big bulls in my career that i pretty much know what that bull is before we even pull the trigger, it's my job to know. But when i get that client who says he's not after the biggest baddest bull on the place, he'd settle for just a nice bull and the best thing he has ever taken is a 340 incher, runs up to the bull he decides to shoot and whips his tape out....i break out in a cold sweat, beacuse in the back of his mind he still wants the biggest baddest bull on the place, regardless of what he initially told me.
My first client that i had last killed a 385 (gross 6x6) but his best prior too that was a 320. Needless to say he was ecstatic! But.....he's coming back in four weeks to do it all over again and he knows what to expect and i know he's going to raise the bar on me.
No pressure there trying to better a 385 bull!!

 

[Rammu]

No pressure! Just tell him to stay home.. Sounds like you want a patt on the back Slamdunk..

 

[huntindude]

Any good guide deserves a pat on the back. lots of pressure if you ask me, the guy who took years to save up for the hunt of a lifetime would be the one I'd sweat the most over. my hats off to guys who do it and give 100%.

 

[slamdunk]

No RAMMU, i don't ever feel the need for a pat on the back, give me a break!
I was being totally facecious when i was saying "no pressure there" for heaven's sake.
Bettering a 385 bull is going to be a tough task for anyone on ANY piece of real estate, and i'm not sure it can be done, but i'll try my damndest.