Double lunged,,,, or maybe not?

[CAelknuts]

About ten days ago, a fellow started a thread about his brother shooting a bull with a bow, getting a doulbe lung hit and having to track the bull about a mile before finding it. As some will remember, I made a comment that any bull "double lunged" can't go a mile. I got flamed for that comment and we had some back and forth discourse, and then I left to go to Arizona to help a buddy with his elk hunt. I just returned and would like to share something that happened on my buddies hunt.

My buddy killed a nice bull on the second evening of the muzzleloader season. I wasn't with him as I was a couple miles away, scouting for bulls while he hunted the mountain behind our camp location. He killed his bull right before dark, and they skinned and broke the bull down, hanging the pieces in trees to cool before walking back to camp late that night.

On Sunday morning we packed the bull back to where we were staying and boned everything out, and GOT A BIG SURPRISE! Someone else had shot the bull either earlier that same day, or the day before. The bull, according to my buddy, appeared totally healthy, bugling and chasing a spike bull away from his cows that he was herding along the mountain.

I'm pretty sure the guy who shot this bull thought he'd made a good shot, and probably hit the bull right through the lungs as the bullet penetrated the left scapula and went through the chest to lodge under the right scapula. I imagine the guys who shot this bull thought they had a dead bull if they saw hair fly on his shoulder, but they couldn't have known that the bullet passed over the lungs and under the spine and didn't harm the bull very much at all. This guy was shooting a .50 rifle, and using a sabot encased slug. The bullet performed badly, as it sheared off a petal, had another couple collapse inward and only a couple expand outward to expand the wound channel. The wound channel was very clean with virtually no bloodshot tissue. The only way the bull would have ever perished from this shot was if he developed an infection, but when we butchered the bull there wasn't even any sign of imflammation so I wonder if the bull would have ever had anything more than a sore shoulder that would have healed in a few weeks.

The point I hope that some of the readers of this website take away, is that what we see or think happened isn't always what happened. What the hunter probably thought was a great hit, wasn't at all as it turned out. I think this also shows some of the limitation of sabots and jacketed "pistol" bullets that so many guys shoot. This bullet performed terribly and only wounded the elk. My buddy, on the other hand, was shooting a 495 grain slug in his 45 caliber muzzleloader. The bull collapsed in his tracks and rolled down the hill all the way to a dry creekbed. I wasn't there, but the guide and my buddy both said the bull instantly collapsed from that shot. Maybe this gives some muzzy hunters something to consider in the bullets they choose, maybe not.

Finally, if anyone on here knows someone who has a tag for 22 south and wounded a 6x6 bull near Gibson Peak, you can tell him that we found the bull after they lost him, and he's now at the butcher shop.

 

[proutdoors]

Way to stir the pot, this should be entertaining.

Congrats to your buddy on a successful hunt.

PRO

 

[utahheadgear]

I've heard the 'ol "double lung shot and he ran two miles" story a time or two myself, and I think you are right on with your comments. It may have looked that way, but there are alot of things when it comes to shooting an animal that happen faster than the eye can see.

 

[DallanC]

Why in the hell is it the bullets fault the bull didnt die when it was hit as you said, it was hit poorly above the lungs and under the spine? Is it the bullets fault it didnt kill an animal when the animal gets hit in the @$$? No!

The bull was alive because of a crappy shot, the bullet sounded like it preformed ok (from your description it sounds like a barnes). So its .45" going in, you said a couple petals expanded out, thats going to push it up to approx .60" diameter, and you said it traveled the width of the elk. Thats pretty good IMO. Had it been a bit lower of a shot, a .60" wound channel through the boiler room is devastating.


-DallanC

 

[2pointer]

I am the guy who posted the story about my brothers elk going over a mile before dying. When we were cleaning the elk we looked at the lungs and heart. Both lungs had clearly been shot through. We waited over 40 minutes before tracking and it still took over a mile for this bull to die.

I will be the first to tell you that this is not common (or fun) but it did happen. I am not arguing with you or trying to stir the pot. I am just stating what happened.

I would love to post the pictures on here. I could email them to someone if they will post them for me.


Thanks,
2pointer

 

[TripleK]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-02-07 AT 12:48PM (MST)[p]Send em' over, 2pointer! [email protected] I'll upload them to one of my photobucket sites and post them for you.

Jenn
>
>I would love to post the
>pictures on here. I
>could email them to someone
>if they will post them
>for me.
>

 

[elkhunterUT]

Good reminder and good post that what we see or think happened when hunting isn't always the case. Sometimes weird things happen that are tough to explain. I experienced a very similar situation to yours on the Utah archery elk hunt this year. I had a cow/spike tag and shot a cow at 15 yards. My arrow entered the cow as perfect as you could draw it up, straight up the back of the leg and centered in the open space of the "V" formed by the shoulder blade connecting to the leg bone. As soon as I saw the shot, I figured the cow was dead on her feet.

I have shot several other elk in that same location with my bow and had them all die within sight. Not so with this cow. I waited 40 minutes after the shot to begin tracking her. My Dad and I proceeded to follow a blood trail for nearly a mile and half with no dead cow. I could not believe what was happening given the shot I witnessed with no doubt at 15 yards. I was POSITIVE I had hit her solid. We finally jumped the cow and she was hurting but not dead. We could see the entrance hole and blood on the cow's right side, and there was no doubt I had hit her where I thought I did. My Dad and I could not figure out what happened given the hit location on the animal.

The cow finally bedded down but would not die. I was able to sneak in close enough to put another arrow in her to kill her about 4 hours after I had originally shot her. I was VERY curious to discover what happened with that first shot.

So what really happened?

Upon investigation when putting the cow down for good, we found the exit hole from the original shot clear back in the cow's paunch near the flank. As we looked further, my arrow had entered perfectly as I "saw" it, but caught a rib at a weird angle on the entrance side and the arrow was deflected back into the elk's paunch. What I witnessed as a "for sure" lungs/heart shot, actually turned out to be nothing more than a gut shot!!! I have pictures of the entrance and will post them if I can to show you how perfect the hit appeared.

Weird things can and do happen now and again when hunting and we should always be on alert when shooting an animal, regardless of how "perfect" we may think the hit is. As an aside, I shoot a 65 pound Hoyt Trykon bow with a nearly 400 grain arrow tipped with Montec broadheads and have successfully killed a handful of other elk quickly and cleanly with this setup, so I don't attribute this situation to equipment, more to just plain weird things happening that are tough to explain.


Good Luck,

Cory

 

[elkhunterUT]

Here are the pics of my cow with the entrance hole just to show that things aren't always as they appear:

 

[proutdoors]

Nice bow! Oh yeah, congrats on the cow.

PRO

 

[CAelknuts]

Dallan, I think you're misinterpreting my message. Yeah, I said the bullet performed poorly, and it did. Two of the petals collapsed inward, not mushrooming outward as we'd want. One or two sheared off and what was left, I think two petals, performed as desired. Also, if you think about it, high on an elk, penetrating only through to the inside of the off shoulder blade isn't that much penetration.

The culprit in this case was clearly bad shot placement, but I'll bet the hunter and his guide (I assume guide as there was a guided hunter in that area, and we didn't see anyone else) thought he'd made a good hit. Not so. If he'd have hit it a couple inches higher or lower, he'd probably have recovered that elk even with the poor performace of that bullet. As it was, they lost a magnificent bull that might have survived or not if my buddy hadn't come across it. When my buddy shot it, he and his guide had no idea at all that the bull had been previously shot.

I've shot or seen a decent number of animals shot with muzzleloaders, and one key I've realized is that shooting an elk BEHIND the shoulder is a key on a broadside shot. Some muzzy bullets will do the job through the shoulder, but many won't. They all will pretty much perform as intended when the shot goes behind the shoulder and into the ribcage if it hits lungs. I'm sure many will disagree with me on this, but I also believe that heavier bullets are much better when elk hunting. I think many of the light pistol type bullets that work well on deer sized game are marginal, at best, when used for killing elk. Personally, if shooting a bullet or slug for elk, I won't use anyting under about 350 grains, and think heavier is better. The only time I've hunted elk with lighter was when I used to shoot a round ball gun, and that fired a .54 caliber 240 grain round ball.

 

[BLooDTRaCKeR]

I was up elk hunting and ran into another hunter on horseback that shared a story about an elk he had shot. (Now stay with me on this one, try not to laugh too much until I'm finished)
This guy claims he hit the bull in the vitals, nipping the bottom of his heart. The bull ran TWENTY, yes 20 miles before piling up. This guy claimed to have tracked it that whole twenty miles. I'm guessing that bull had a blood truck following it to sustain its life during its twenty mile walk. I'm also guessing that bull died somewhere inside a hospital where it was able to drag itself to, to get some help. Ya gotta love stories. Can't take too much of what is said literal unless you were there.

 

[swbuckmaster]

the bullet probably didnt penetrate or expand well because the shot was probably two far. This might also explain why he hit high he probably aiming over its back.

 

[WAstickslinger]

CAelknuts. The debate was that odd things happen and you did not need to start making accusations when you were not there. That is it. Why make a comment when you were not there. Keep the scientific logic somewhere else.
And the buck I double lunged was recovered, and yes it had perfect lascerations through both lungs. Passed right through ribs without breaking one in or out the other side. I assume body fat and hide sealed the holes to keep him from bleeding out and allowed the chest cavity to stay inflated. I don't really have a clue. All I know is that I double lunged him and it took hours for him to expire. Call me a liar now because I have had it happen too.
You are right that the majority of the time they expire right in front of your eyes. In fact all but one of mine have. But, like I said in the other post, just because you have never had it happen does not make it impossible.
MAIN POINT. You called the guy out and said that the double lung that ran a mile is not possible. That was the bulk of your first post on the guys thread. Why not say something like, "good job tracking and being persitant, would really like to see pictures" The guy recovered the bull, he probably looked at the lungs when he gutted it, why can't you take his word and not screw up his story by calling him a liar.

The other point was that i just got done reading one of your posts about how much you hate people making accusations and calling people out on this site. I just wish everyone would bite their tongue more and let people post pictures and stories with out the negativity. Just let it go.

 

[proutdoors]

WAstickslinger wrote: "Just let it go."

Back at you. The irony of you continuing this while lecturing CAelknuts is amusing. YOU turned the other thread negative more than any other poster. JUST LET IT GO!

PRO

 

[WAstickslinger]

PRO, I was just reponding to the post. Though i would give my two cents on the new thread addressing the dead horse brought back to life by CAelknuts. Just stating a few facts. By stating "let it go" I refer to refraining from posting negative opinions on other peoples threads if you read something you might not agee with.

P.S. Don't you have 6 330 class bulls you should be watching??

 

[Lien2]

There is no void area that will allow a bullet, b-head/arrow, etc to go under the spine and above the lungs. Also an animal hit very high in the lungs will go much farther than one shot through the middle of the lungs, which is what I believe happened to th elk that went a mile before dieing.
Just MY .02.

Lien2

 

[muleybull]

CAelknuts, do you realize how many lives you ruined with this post?

Is that ethical?

 

[proutdoors]

>PRO, I was just reponding to
>the post. Though i would
>give my two cents on
>the new thread addressing the
>dead horse brought back to
>life by CAelknuts. Just stating
>a few facts. By stating
>"let it go" I refer
>to refraining from posting negative
>opinions on other peoples threads
>if you read something you
>might not agee with.
>
>P.S. Don't you have 6 330
>class bulls you should be
>watching??


I forgot how funny you are, thanks for the chuckle on the 330 class bull reference. Nice to see you pay attention and have a sense of humor. Good form! I guess you must be an alright fellar, so I'll try and be nicer to you from now on.

PRO

 

[CAelknuts]

You know, muleybull, I never considered how relating something like I did would ruin the day of some people. It does amaze me how little it takes to upend some people's day.

I think we might need a whole new forum reserved just for those who require kinder, gentler discourse.

 

[Muleyslyr]

CAelk....do you have an opinion on 2pointers response?? Unless I've missed something somewhere, I believe that's the first response we've heard from him. He pretty much told us, it happened, he saw it.

What about your response to Lien2? Says there's no void between the lungs and spine? True or not?

 

[Roy]

My dad killed a deer once with his .270. He shot it one time and it ran about 1/4 mile. At the site of the first shot, he found some blood and a few bone chips, making him believe that he had shot it in the leg or something. We began tracking the buck, - very little blood - just small drops. Finally we found him - dead with an entrance and and exit hole. When we cleaned him out, his heart had been obliterated - there was nothing left at all - just the pericardium full of blood and some tissue. Still, he ran for 1/4 mile after that. Some critters can do some amazing things when the adrenaline quicks in!

UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)

 

[WAstickslinger]

Roy-my point exactly. Unexpected and unpredictable thing happen all the time. The is no exact answer about how long it takes a deer to die. The is no reason to try and come up with one either.

 

[2pointer]

You guys can see my brothers bull on a different thread of the Elk Forum.

Then we can just let this one die. Hopefully within 10 yards!!


2pointer

 

[muleybull]

I once watched a buddy of mine shoot a coyote right between the eyes..........brains blew out the back end. That was in 1983, that coyote is still stealing his chickens at night.

The bloodtrail finally ended last august.

If everything always reacted or ended the same, it would make things kinda boring, especially on this site.

Is that ethical?

 

[CAelknuts]

As requested by Muleyslyr, here are my thought about the comments I was asked to respond to. I'll take 2pointer's response at face value. I'm totally confident that there had to be, absolutely had to be, some extenuating circumstance that he either didn't notice or didn't choose to mention. Perhaps his brother was shooting a broadhead that had very dull blades, perhaps they were also very small blades, perhaps a blade or blade broke off upon hitting the elk, we'll probably never know. Perhaps he was shooting a mechanical and it didn't properly open, I don't know but I'll take him at face value. I also know that a well built broadhead, one that is shaving sharp and of proper cutting diameter, will quickly kill any elk that it hits when the broadhead passes through both lungs. An extremely sharp broadhead passing through both lungs causes massive and swift blood loss, regardless of whether the external holes allow the lungs to collapse or not. While it is concievable that his bull could have gone a mile, something way out of the norm had to cause this extremely unusual circumstance to happen as he's outlined.

As for what lean2 says about there not being a void between the lungs and spinal column, I disagree with him and I also agree with him. If you look at the scapula of an animal, it is possible to hit the animal through the scapula/shoulder blade and miss both the lungs and spine. I said that the bullet this mystery hunter shot the elk with went into a void between the spine and lungs but more likely it passed over the spine entirely. When I got there, the elk was hanging in pieces in trees. I did look at the carcass and the lungs were intact, but didn't think to lay the shoulders back onto the carcass to see where the bullet would have passed. The shoulder blade is very far forward and it is possible to punch a hole in the shoulder and miss both the lungs and spine. He's correct in suggesting, though unsaid, that the lungs essentially fill the thoracic cavity. You can still miss both the spine and lungs and have what appears to the shooter to be a good shot. Your shot has to be rather forward and high to do this, but any look at elk anatomy will confirm that it can be done.

If the guy who shot the bull before my buddy had hit him 12" lower and 6" farther back, he'd be enjoying great elk steaks right now, instead of feeling bad about losing a magnificent bull. Actually, I'm not sure how great the steaks would be as my buddy said they're tough as hell. But, they still taste mighty good!

Are we all still having fun with this?????????????????

 

[out4elk]

It is funny this post popped up, I had a VERY similar event last Saturday morning in southern Utah.

Me and my buddy were watching a bull that was bedded down for almost an hour waiting for him to stand and give me a shot. He finally did stand up after some rocks being thrown his way only to notice he was packing his right rear leg below the knee. After my shot when the bull ran through the only clearing in the area his right rear leg was flapping in the breeze, probably why he was more interested in bedding down that standing up.

I was using shooting sticks and made what I still feel was the most confident and well placed shot on any game animal to date. I was so sure that he was laying dead 50-100yds away that when my excited buddy wanted to start searching for the bull I told him to calm down he was laying dead and NOT going anywhere.

Well to my dismay we had EXCELLENT blood for 50 yds before he dried to a drop every 50-75 yds. We followed his tracks the best we could the rest of Saturday and Sunday-Tuesday me and my dad scoured the canyon he was shot in with no success in finding him.

I was shooting 50 gr, 348 grain powerbelts at 107 yds, I don't think the PB did its job correctly and I really think my bullet went through some sort of no mans land in that bull's chest cavity.

The unfortunate and sickening part is there is a nice 6X6 bull running around the mountains with two hunter inflicted injuries.
?Here?s to the hero's that GET-R-Done!!?

 

[CAelknuts]

out4elk, we had a similar experience with that exact same bullet a couple years ago. My son shot a big 6x7 bull in Arizona, darn near knocked him off his feet. If was watching through binoculars and could see the hair "jump" where the bullet hit him in the shoulder, a bit high and forward. We never found a single drop of blood and looked for the bull for the entire day. The next day, we were back in the same spot and encountered the bull in hte junipers at 20 yards. He broke and ran before my son could shoot, and he was limping noticably, but we couldn't keep up with him when we tried to follow. He was bugling, chasing cows and keeping other bulls away, while leading us on a chase of several miles.

We ran into the game warden later that second day and related our story to him. He assured us that the bullet hadn't penetrated the chest cavity, which is what we also believed, if that bull was running around that healthy and moving well. The only way you'd have known he'd been shot was a limp to his right front leg. The game warden assured us that it was fine to keep hunting and my son shot a very nice 6 pt. bull, his first one at 16 years old, the next day. That bull was hit about 8" behind the shoulder just below the midline, and he went a whopping 30 yards before he piled up. the powerbelt performed well when it was put in the correct location for that bullet type.