Utah Pahvant elk in 08?

S

stinkystomper

Guest
I was going to ask everyones opinion on a possible elk hunt. I've always dreamed of getting the NM governors elk tag, and I'm sure everyone has. For me that tag is way out of any budget I can imagine. However, I have been reading alot about utah's tag system and have been dying to go to utah for the last 10 years and hunt elk. I recently decided (against my wifes will) to break the bank and attend certain banquets in utah in an attempt to buy the pahvant bull elk conservation tag. My hopes are that as a once-in-a-lifetime hunt, which for me this tag would be, that I will not be dissapointed. I obviously want a big bull, but I don't want to go unless I have a chance at a 400+ bull and I get to experience the most awesome, heart pounding rutting action ever seen by large bulls. Would this hunt be what I hope it would be or would I be better of holding back for something more(save my money)? please let me know what you guys think. This is a one time deal for me and I can't afford to get this wrong. I know nothing about utah's units, just that there are big bulls up there.
 
Stinkystomper,
I would have to say that with a 40,000(?)elk tag comes alot of pressure to harvest a bull that you would consider worthy of that price tag.For me it would be too much pressure to enjoy the finer things that make a hunt priceless ( friends, family, scenery and all the other little things that you can't buy).As you know nothing is guaranteed. Not the rut and especially a 400" bull. That being said- if you have the disposable income to pull off that type of hunt and it's something you always dreamed of then go for it! The Pahvant would seem to be a great place to start but keep in mind there could be all kinds of folks running around the mountain trying to turn up that elusive 400" bull for someone other than you! If I had the extra change, I would lean towards the San Carlos where you would probably would have a more controlled hunt for the money.By this I mean less tags(6?)and less people.There are some World Class Wapiti living over(as well as Utah)and it may be easier to find that 400" without fighting off everybody's fater,brother,mother and sister for a shot at it.Just my opinions.Good luck in whatever you choose to do. You only live once so if your going to go for it-Go for it Elk hunting!!
Sharpshooter
 
For what it is worth, I talked with an outfitter from Arizona who has hunted the San Carlos twice, his partner had a Utah archery LE tag for Utah this year, he said he will NEVER buy a San Carlos tag over an ARCHERY tag in Utah again. This was not even on one of the 'top' LE units in Utah. He has enough points to likely draw this or a neoghboring unit tag in 2008, yet he is considering buying a conservation tag, just so he knows he will be chasing big Utah bulls with archery gear.

If I had the cash, I would BUY a tag in Utah every year, and never be tempted to hunt in any other state. But that is just me. Good luck, just remember that just because a few great bulls come off a LE unit does not mean it is easy to kill a 400+ bull on public land under Fair Chase conditions. Hope you get what you are after.

PRO
 
PRO is right, that San Carlos hunt is a tough one. There have been some unbelievable bulls killed on that Reservation (including a bull that grossed close to 500"), but not that consistently - especially lately. Utah is on fire right now, and the Pahvant is certainly one of the primer units, but no tag gives you a guarantee of a 400" bull. Except maybe a statewide tag. My advice is to find an outfitter you like and trust and tell him what you want. He should be able to give you more info, and he might even know of a bull in an area you could buy a tag for and hunt next year. Good luck.
 
Just a thought here, but why break the bank in 2008 if you don't know exactly what you are getting into?

You might want to try taking a video camera into some of these premier units in 2008 during the rut and get an idea of exactly what you are up against. Then, if you are still convinced, go for in 2009 when you can make a more informed decision.
 
I cant imagine going on any hunt expecting a chance at a 400+ bull.

That seems unreasonable.

Indian Rez is a good choice for a 350+ bull.
 
>Just a thought here, but why
>break the bank in 2008
>if you don't know exactly
>what you are getting into?
>
>
>You might want to try taking
>a video camera into some
>of these premier units in
>2008 during the rut and
>get an idea of exactly
>what you are up against.
> Then, if you are
>still convinced, go for in
>2009 when you can make
>a more informed decision.

Or,,,hire me and get your 400+ bull. Yeah baby! HA HA.

PRO
 
......and take me along too, and i'll DOUBLE your chances with PRO of getting what your after!!

Besides that, i'm WAY cheaper than PRO!! ;-)









Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-07 AT 04:52PM (MST)[p]Slamdunk wrote, "Besides that, i'm WAY cheaper than PRO!!"

We are talking hunting elk here, not a date to the prom in Happy Valley! I ain't a cheap date either, how does the saying go? You get what you pay for! HeeHeeHee

PRO
 
Well hey....there's not much else to choose from in the Tooele valley, he's scraping the bottom of the barrel hiring you Pro, so i offered him some "back up". ;-)






Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
stinky,

Here is what I say. Most units will hold a 400 bull. So you have a chance. Getting one will take some knowledge and some luck. Some units your chances are better.

If it were me, I would not do Pahvant. It is high profile and you have the high profile guides hitting it very hard. You will have lots of competition for the best bulls. I would definitely do the Any Weapon hunt. I would also pick one of 3 or 4 units and Pahvant is not one of them for the competition reason. Also, the units I would pick will probably cost less.

If you want my top 3 or 4 pm me. It is no secret, but I will not advertise them here.
 
Stop winking at me when you say "back up".

How do you guys get the emotions to work anyhow? I have been trying for months, WTF am I doing wrong? Remember, I live in Tooele, but I am NOT from here.

PRO
 
>If I had the cash, I
>would BUY a tag in
>Utah every year, and never
>be tempted to hunt in
>any other state. But that
>is just me.


Just curious...how much cash would that be?
 
That would depend, but it would be a whole lot more than I have to spend on hunting each year. I would say atleast $10,000 a year for a DIY archery elk tag, plus expenses.

PRO
 
Let me put it another way. My fantasy is to hunt with a rifle and be able to see lots of 370+ bulls bugling. I don't want to shoot the first bull no matter what he scores. I want to hunt several days and shoot the first bull after about 4 days that gets my heart pumping. What I want is an experience. Not a bull. I probably won't get excited enough to shoot anything that is less than 400, but you never know. From my research I was expecting a tag in the range of $30,000 for pahvant or san juan. I was also expecting a $10,000 guide fee. Am I wrong? Anyone know what the rifle, middle of sept. pahvant and sanjuan hunts sold for last year.
 
You better hold off, or pony up some more money to pay MOSSBACK to guide you with your tag. Because if you don't hire MOSSY and your going after the same bull Holy chit look out. I know some of his guides who are on this site, talking like they treat hunting like a gentlemens game of golf. Bull Crap be prepared to get ran of the road, headlights flashed at you to pull over so the can get around you, maybe a atv flying around every ridge if they seen you got there before they did, and the most important thing DO NOT RUN A MOSSBACK STOP SIGN THAT THEY PUT IN THE ROAD!!! I would rather run threw Ethiopia with a hamburger strapped to my back than run a MOSSY stop sign.
 
That will put you in the ballpark. I suggest you contact a few of the top producing outfitters for prices. I could recommend ONE on the forum, but I won't, if you would like more specific info, shoot me a PM. Good luck whatever you decide to do. I work for one of the outfitters who has taken several 400+ bulls from both of the units you mentioned, along with several from other units as well. Disregard those who chose to bash with no PROOF.I have found that those who can't get it done critize those who can and DO!

PRO
 
Heck I spent $20k dating a year and my heart pounds plenty!
Maybe I will feel that was about an Elk someday!
Good Luck if thats what you want!
rm
 
Stinkystomper,If you are serious about buying a tag give me a call.I have bought a few conservation tags over the years and i will be happy to give you some information.here is my numer and ask for John 801-694-1001
 
Not trying to sound greedy, but If I want to bid on and get more than one or two elk tags, is there any kind of limit? Same question for deer?
 
If I was you I would buy them all up. I could help you with a HELOC and then the whole thing will be tax deductible. Believe it or not I have done several home equity lines of credit for people that were buying permits / hunts or just putting in for alot of states every year. To each their own.
 
Mortgageman, now that surprizes me, you seem to have an attitude. It's not like you! No, I do need a mortgage , but I will have alot of real estate I can sell you when the market gets better. Which state do you want to buy in? I just have too much time on my hands?
 
You can only have one elk tag in utah regardless of the tag or how much you spend. The only exception is high fence. You can kill as many as you want I would assume, but whats the challenge there?
 
>You can only have one elk
>tag in utah regardless of
>the tag or how much
>you spend. The only exception
>is high fence. You can
>kill as many as you
>want I would assume, but
>whats the challenge there?

You are correct!

Did you get my PM I sent back?

PRO
 
Stincky,
What is your elk hunting background?
Would you really know the difference between a 370 and a 400?
I'm just curious because a lot of people, even experienced hunters wouldn't know.
If you are hunting just for the experience, then do your homework, buy a landowner tag or hire a guide(like Pro), enjoy the sights and sounds of a rut hunt and kill a nice bull.
 
Stinky thanks, I was asking because I was thinking about buying two tags, one for my self and one for my other self! Actually buying for my hunting partner, but I guess he will just have to be at the auction too so he can put it in his name!
 
>Let me put it another way.
>My fantasy is to hunt
>with a rifle and be
>able to see lots of
>370+ bulls bugling. I don't
>want to shoot the first
>bull no matter what he
>scores. I want to hunt
>several days and shoot the
>first bull after about 4
>days that gets my heart
>pumping. What I want is
>an experience. Not a bull.
>I probably won't get excited
>enough to shoot anything that
>is less than 400, but
>you never know. From my
>research I was expecting a
>tag in the range of
>$30,000 for pahvant or san
>juan. I was also expecting
>a $10,000 guide fee. Am
>I wrong? Anyone know what
>the rifle, middle of sept.
>pahvant and sanjuan hunts sold
>for last year.

I could be mistaken ... I don't think those hunters/guides that are shooting 400+ bulls are tripping over 350 bulls, one after the other till they finally "decide" to shoot the 400 bull. It "appears" to me from reading this forum that the guide has found the bull and you go shoot it. You might cross paths with a few 350 bulls on the way in but these guys don't seem to stroll thru the woods looking for that magic bull, he's already found and if you don't whack him first chance somebody else will.

I could be wrong. I'm not nor do I know one of those high end guides. I just don't read about these high end hunters passing on bulls for days on end till the magic one appears. 350 bulls maybe but not the 400+ bulls.
Sure would be nice though.
 
WapitiBob wrote: "I could be mistaken ... I don't think those hunters/guides that are shooting 400+ bulls are tripping over 350 bulls, one after the other till they finally "decide" to shoot the 400 bull. It "appears" to me from reading this forum that the guide has found the bull and you go shoot it. You might cross paths with a few 350 bulls on the way in but these guys don't seem to stroll thru the woods looking for that magic bull, he's already found and if you don't whack him first chance somebody else will.

I could be wrong. I'm not nor do I know one of those high end guides. I just don't read about these high end hunters passing on bulls for days on end till the magic one appears. 350 bulls maybe but not the 400+ bulls.
Sure would be nice though"

Actually you are mistaken/mis-informed. First, we don't have ANY bulls tied up, and in order for a hunter to kill that 400+ bull, 99 out of 100 times he WILL pass up several bulls between 350-390 before he puts a 400+ bull on the ground. My advice would be to talk with a couple of the top outfitters, get references from them, call those references, then decide which direction to go. If you decide to hunt with me, in order to put a 400 bull on the ground, you better be in shape and you better be willing to pass up SEVERAL 350+ bulls. Killing a 400+ bull is NOT easy regardless of who you go with and where you go, unless you go high-fence, and I already seen where you WON'T do that.

PRO
 
Yeah. a 400 looks a lot like a 370. Difference being the brows have to come halfway between the eye ducts and tip of the nose and curl up at least 5 inches. That makes 17 to 18 inch tines. 13+ inch thirds are a must. If the 3rds look short then that means they are about 6 inches. You need them to be twice that long, however gigantic thirds (20+ inches) do not make the 400. He must have 20 inch royals which look huge on the hoof. 5ths tines can be average at about 10 inches. Mass is not a major factor cuz avg bulls get 50 inches and massive bulls get 60. Thats only 10 inches. width has to be at least 40 inches which is most good bulls. Main beam that touch the middle of the rump are a must. 30% to 40% of your score comes here. If the main beams are short, say 50 inches(back of front shoulder on wide bulls), you will not reach 400. From the pics I see most utah bulls seem to have short beams and long tines. The Gila bulls I get every year all have about 57 inch beams and decent to good tines. In NM you judge tines cuz you know the beams are there. From what I'm seeing, in utah you have to really study the main beams in order to ensure you don't get 370 bulls.
 
ss, that is a pretty good assesment of how to field judge bulls, but you will get the 'sneaky' bull that doesn't follow the rules. One of my hunters put a bull on the ground a few year back that had 53 inch main beams, at first glance I thought 380. Then I noticed the 23" G4's and a 48" inside spread. When we put him on the ground we discovered he had 66" of mass, and had 21" G1's and G2's. Bull grossed out at 401 7/8, netted 394 6/8. All that mass made his tines look shorter than they were. Very astute observations I must say. I believe you and I would have a great time turning 350+ bulls down on a daily basis.:7

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-07 AT 03:13PM (MST)[p]Hey there PRO, This is stinkys wife, the one who killed the VC bull. I was reading your comments about having to be in shape and willing to pass on 350-370 bulls. Let me just warn you and any other outfitters who are interested in trying to guide my husband. YOU better be in good shape, cuz he will be guiding you. LOL.. Seriously, ive had many a hunts with him, and talk to many a man that cant keep up. (really its not fair cuz he has long legs, hes 6'4, and i have short legs, im pushin 5'1). pretty much he dragged me down the mountain,(er i slid on my butt) then i got dirty looks most of the way stalking my bull, cuz i was running to keep up and he thought i was being to noisy. I think we almost got divorced right there on that mountain. All that being said, he is the hunter every guide dreams of, because he is willing and able to go ANYWHERE, to get "that" bull, and has many years of experiance "passing" on inferior elk that most anyone would be proud to have on there wall. K im done preaching, wanna know more ask me.
 
Mrs stomper, it don't feel right calling you mrs stinky.:eek:

I'll start training harder for next fall right now! I love being with hunters who push me, both physically and mentally.

Congrats on your nice bull!

If "stinky" goes with my boss, he will be in for a good hunt. If he goes for a Pahvant or San Juan tag I will NOT be his guide for sure. I stick to a couple of units in the south/central part of the state where there are few roads and lots of good bulls. Are you coming up in a few months with "stinky", or is he leaving you at home to look for a second wife here in Utah?

PRO
 
Well, I had the opposite happen this year. I am used to hunting the gila and all elk there are 200 inches plus tine length. They all have 40 inch spreads, 60 mass, and 57 beams. I use 200 inches as a starting point on all mature 6 x 6 bulls. I used the same technique on the bull my wife got on the valles caldera this year. Only problem was he had less mass and his beams only had 33 (i believe) inches of credit on the width. He also had 49.5 inch beams. I knew he was a 350 bull on tines and maybe more. He measured officially at 153 inches of tines. However he only scored 333. Oh well, that happens. For the area he was one of the best bulls and I would have had her shoot him again.
 
stinky.... cuz I work in the oilfield.
stomper.... cuz I live to stomp around the mountains.

My son thought it sounded like a hilarious name. he suggested stinkystomper, tvhead?, etc. he was 6 at the time.

so there you have it.
 
well, what kinda price range are the tags in, and what kinda bulls are we talking about in your area. I would love a hunt where we can hike about 5 miles from the nearest road and get a monster bull. Now thats huntin!

PS my next wife will have a 400 inch rack!
 
ss,

You better and hurry to Utah before PRO tries to ruin the rifle rut and gets I400 started.;-)
 
Pro, I stand corrected.

I never read where these guys pass on lots of bulls, just shoot the big one.
Sounds like the stinky one will have a good hunt if he can part with the cash.
 
oh man thats hilarious. Believe me I know where you're coming from. The big time outfitters in NM cut fences, trespass and try to herd the elk onto their units over here. On opening day its like the opening of the boston marathon. Thank god I always come in first place. I've never hired an outfitter before for the simple fact that I'm pretty proficient at finding my own bulls and can beat everyone to them. However, I would be wasting my money going to a state blind and having no idea on how the land lays. I've also found that guides, for the most part, are usually alright guys. When it comes down to it we all have a family's to feed. Think about it. Would you rather be hunting n scouting for yourself and friends, or guiding for someone you don't even know. We all have to make ends meet, and yes there are some bad outfitters out there.
 
>ss,
>
>You better and hurry to Utah
>before PRO tries to ruin
>the rifle rut and gets
>I400 started.;-)

Ty, you are a funny fellar, to bad stinky doesn't know what I400 is about, maybe I'll shoot him a PM and fill him in before you tell him all sorts of false stuff.:*

PRO
 
You can buy as many tags as you want. What you can't do is actually validate more than one hunting tag in you're own name. If you're peta and your rich you could buy all the tags and throw them away. When your in the field you can only carry one elk tag. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone?
 
pro so your are saying these guides are not watching these 400+ bulls all summer and keeping an I on them until there guy gets there. And when the guy gets there they dont know right where the bull is going to be. I guess your not working for mossback. If I was taking somebody for that kind of money I would know exactly which bull I was Looking for and a pretty good idea where to find it.
 
30,000 would probably get you a Mt Dutton or Boulder Mt any weapon tag and both units can produce 400 inch bulls but as PRO said its very difficult to get one.I met PRO this year on the Dutton and he seems to know his stuff.
 
the two Dutton any-weapon conservation tags both went for less than $22,000, one went under $20,000.

saxon, who are you? I am having trouble putting your MM idenity with the real you. Shoot me a PM if you would please.

PRO
 
Stinky if i had your money and was looking to kill a big bull and have more time to do it. I would buy a cwmu tag because the seasons longer and alot less people to contend with and you could get it for a better price.
 
"I met PRO this year on the Dutton and he seems to know his stuff."

I have talked to PRO on MM and I KNOW he knows his stuff!;-)
 
What the heck? how many freakin tags are there in utah. cwmu? whats that? I downloaded the utah 07 list of tags and who they went to. That list will be the same for 08, and change in 2009. I see particular unit tags and then I see those same unit tags labeled as premium. I don't want a premium tag because I don't hunt with pointed sticks. I want to hunt with a rifle. I can't afford the governors tag for say $100,000. So exactly how many tags are we looking at in the limeted entry areas??? Maybe it works this way... there are cwmu tags (aka conservation tags) which is what I want, premium tags (good for bow, then muzzy, then rifle, then late rifle) which I don't want cuz the rifle hunts still fall on the same dates as conservation tags, and then there is the governors tag, and thats it.!???!........
 
The cwmu tag is like the ranching for wildlife tag in colorado. The game and fish department give the land owner so many tags in return the game and fish get a small amount of the tags for the public to put in for and you can only hunt that ranch. Residents are the only people that can put in for the cwmu tags the rancher sells the others that he has, the season starts sept.1st thru nov.1st and you can use a rifle the hole time during the hunt. On a regular landowner tag you have to pick your weapon / season which is the same as the limited entry season but you can hunt the hole unit. Hope that clears it up for you?
 
OK I read up on cwmu tags. If you purchase one from a landowner can you use it to hunt the entire unit including the blm and forest service land, or do you have to stay on the private deeded land? Kind of like in NM. Also, would the rifle hunt start before the normal rifle hunt? Which tag is better, a cwmu tag or an auction tag for san juan, pahvant etc.
 
stinky, CWMU tags are for the CWMU property ONLY, you can NOT hunt the public land on that unit. I would say CWMU's are half the tag a conservation tag is, IMHO. A landowner tag maybe the best deal, but they are between the hunter and landowner. The conservation tag goes to the highest bidder. A premium tag is good for those who are archers and rifle hunters, you get the whole month of September to hunt with this tag, but it will cost more.

PRO
 
pro
I was just wondering if all guides stopped in to the DWR office every morning to ask them wear the elk and deer were or just you.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-07 AT 11:46AM (MST)[p]STINKY,

If your serious, and not just another "want-abee" tag buyer, CALL SAXON (Johnny). He will guide you in the path to a 380 + bull permit(tag).

snow
 
""If the main beams are short, say 50 inches(back of front shoulder on wide bulls), you will not reach 400."""



472cf16f0f7a8623.jpg





WR 465 Bull as 49" and 46" beams.........



Not that it matters ;-)
 
PRO is right about the CWMU's, i happen to guide on several of these here in Utah.

There are some fantasic CWMU's, but your consevation tags will generally have bigger bulls and will usually give you a larger area to hunt, along with more time to do it in.

As far as what i look for in a big bull?
I tend to agree with most people's statement's, though i have yet to see a truly "BIG" bull with only 13" 3rds.

A "big" bull over 380" needs to have everything up front OVER 18" and as close to 20" as possible. Short 3rds will kill a bull's score so fast it aint even funny.

I like to see bulls i'm looking for to have the magical "20-20-20" on the first three, 20-22" fourth's and at LEAST 10-13" 5th's.
Toss in a "good average" on the "H" measurements of 10,9,8,7,6 for mass, 55" beams and over 45" inside and we have all the makings of a 400" bull, or very close too it.

Ok, i'm all excited now, C'mon 2008!! ;-)







Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
Toss in a "good average" on the "H" measurements of 10,9,8,7,6
Am I missing something here or is that a typo?
 
LOL yeah that would add up to some nice mass. 80 inches of mass WOW unheard of.
 
if you want a 400inch bull off the pahvant then contacted someone involved with tines up productions and they'll do a great job in getting you a bull you like.


GO BIG or GET OFF the Mountain!
 
buncoboy - No attitude here. Do you think I want to buy when the market gets better? I thought the idea was to buy low and sell high? I was just razzing you a bit about buying all the tags. If you got too much time on your hands I can help you there. Don't be surprised by me giving you a hard time. It's all in good fun!! Now buy that tag and kill a monster!!
 

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