Utah 'Management Bull ' Tags ?

PleaseDear

PleaseDear

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Out of the 2008 Bucks, Bulls, OIL Odds book....

San Juan-- Archery Only

220 applicants from 12pts down to '0' pt-- 10 tags offered

Rifle units:

SouthWest Desert-rifle 674 appl. 13pts down to 0--34 tags

Pahvant-rifle 912 appl. 14pts down to 0--15 tags

Monroe-rifle 1065 appl. 13pts down to 0--20 tags

These are RESIDENT applicant numbers.

They look like they had some attention from applicants....anyone see any huge 5x's harvested?

Robb
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that those who where successfull at drawing a management bull tag would only loss thier points if they were not successfull in harvesting a bull and/or failed to report it to the DWR. Everyone that was successfull in drawing a tag and reported it to the DWR would keep all the points they had when applying for the tags. If this is correct I would be realy supprised if anyone acculay lost all thier points.

400bull
 
Don't even get ME started on this management bull thing.x(

That's as dumb a thing as Ford did by putting a 4 cylinder engine in the Mustang back in the 80's!!!!






Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
>Don't even get ME started on
>this management bull thing.x(
>
>That's as dumb a thing as
>Ford did by putting a
>4 cylinder engine in the
>Mustang back in the 80's!!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Skull Krazy
>"No Bones About It"

As a proud owner of a 64 1/2 Mustang, I agree with BOTH parts of your post! The 'management tag' as implemented will do NOTHING to help the bull/cow ratios, and it will NOT 'cull' out the inferior gene bulls by any measure.

4 cylinder Mustang...now I am fired up!}>

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-07 AT 12:33PM (MST)[p]I am lovin the management bull hunt. I will be hunting elk in two weeks and have seen some monster "management bulls." The only problem I have is that I will only be able to hunt for 3 days. It is true that you will not loose any points if you kill a management bull and then have the dwr inspect your bull. How does this hunt not help the bull to cow ratio? More bulls killed = less bulls on the mountain. Common sense fellas.
 
We had one bull posted of a 2 or 3 year old 5 pt. That's Not what the dwr had in mind for a harvest.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-07
>AT 12:33?PM (MST)
>
>I am lovin the management bull
>hunt. I will be
>hunting elk in two weeks
>and have seen some monster
>"management bulls." The only
>problem I have is that
>I will only be able
>to hunt for 3 days.
> It is true that
>you will not loose any
>points if you kill a
>management bull and then have
>the dwr inspect your bull.
> How does this hunt
>not help the bull to
>cow ratio? More bulls
>killed = less bulls on
>the mountain. Common sense
>fellas.

More bulls killed = less bulls on the mountain, true. The problem is the number of 'management' bulls killed with not make a dent in the bull/cow ratios. If the bull/cow ratio is 80+/100 and there are 1500 elk on the mountain and you kill an 'extra' 40 bulls, what has that done to the bull/cow ratio? Then factor in the new bulls that will be recruited into the herd next spring and the net result is a HIGHER bull/cow ratio than before the 2007 hunts started. Common sense fellas indeed!

So, in the end the bull/cow ratio will still be way high, the genetics will be unchanged, tell me again what these tags accomplish.

PRO
 
I forgot to mention the number of cows killed on these units will STILL be higher than the number of bulls killed, 'management' bulls included! This means the bull/cow ratios will be WORSE on these units in 2008 than they are in 2007! Common sense rise and shout!

PRO
 
Tell me where I am wrong mister common sense fellar. Help me out, where is my math wrong? If you kill FEWER bulls than bulls being recruited into the herd AND fewer than the number of cows killed, how will the bull/cow ratio be lowered?

PRO
 
Glad you jumped in there pro, i didn't have the numbers.

But at least "bigone" has the right idea in mind of what a true mgmnt bull really is and not one of these 3 year old 5x5's their taking, or at least he says he does and i hope so.

They need to scratch that whole thing, it does more harm than the good it was intended for.

Maybe they should do a class on what a true mgmnt bull is like they do for the buffalo hunters when you draw a tag?????







Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"
 
True enough slamdunk. Problem is there is NO way to cull out a genetic trait froma fre-ranging herd of elk on public land.

Here is some data straight from the DWR. The SanJuan has 1400 elk with a 80/100 bull/cow ratio that comes out to 480 bulls, 580 cows, 340 calves. Best case scenerio has 100 bulls killed(management tags included), if they killed zero cows that would knock the post hunt ratio 66/100. We KNOW they will need to kill atleast 100 cows down there as they are over herd population objective, so that keeps (at best) the same 80/100 ratio with another 170 new bulls recruited into the herd for the 2008 numbers, which means the bull/cow ratio will be atleast as bad next year, the herd population will be further over objective, which means they will need to kill MORE cows making the ratio worse. So I ask, what will be accomplished by this tag again?

PRO
 
Pro-
Nothing is wrong with your math. The math looks good. What is wrong is that your theory relies on a handful of assumptions that NEED to happen in order for you to be correct. You may very well be correct but at the same time you could be dead wrong. Bottom line is that your theory has too many "what ifs." Your argument implies that the state is not managing the herds correctly. Frankly, I trust them. Why would the state allow this hunt to happen if what you say is true? Do you think they want to ruin the herd? I like your passion though.
 
I like the managment bull tag idea myself. Seems like a good way to remove excess bulls without hurting quality.Nowhere in the proclamation does it say they are trying to remove infereor genes just excess bulls five point on one side or less.

I get the impression that this year was a test hunt and they will increase managment tags #'s next year if it works out.

I don't like that the managment tags doesn't have its on point system seperate from the LE drawing.

Allen
 
The DWR would LOVE to drop the bull/cow ratio down to 50/100 or LOWER. Problem is they are not ALLOWED to by the public and the Wildlife Board. I had Craig McLaughlin, when he was the Big Game Coordinator, tell me and several others in a meeting that these four LE units and a few others are on the brink of disaster due to the extremely high bull/cow ratios. Believe it or not. My 'theory' is NOT based on "what ifs", it is based on FACTS and numbers posted bt the DWR. There is NO "what ifs" on the number of elk on the San Juan, nor on the number of tags issued for the San Juan. My numbers I posted are based on best case scenerios, if I were to use 'realilstic' numbers, the oicture would look much worse. It is not 'normal' nor healthy to have bull/cow ratios this high. The fact is they are not giving out enough tags LE and Management tags to make a dent in the bull/cow ratios and the harvest age averages. If bull/cow ratios keep climbing and the harvest age averages keep going up, the herds WILL crash. this can be prevented simply by the public demanding/allowing the DWR to make significant tag increases on most/all LE units. My passion has nothing to do with the facts and the opinions/views of the former AND current Big Game Coordinators and most/all regional DWR game managers.

PRO
 
Pro-
Once again I like your passion. Your theory, in order to be correct, would have to take place in an ideal setting. Problem is we don't have that luxury. You suggest that the real picture would be worse but it could very well come out better. I completely understand your logic, but too many variables have to be perfect. For example, flip a quarter 340 times. I would bet the farm that you don't get heads exactly 170 times. Flip a quarter 10 times and I would bet the farm you don't get heads exactly 5 times. It is supposed to happen like that but rarely does. That being said, we don't know the sex of the calves that will be born next spring, we don't know the number of winter kill, we don't know if every hunter will fill their tag, we don't know if a wildfire will rip through a mountain range moving animals elsewhere, we don't know how many animals will be killed by motorists, etc, etc. What we do know is the bull to cow ratio is too high. I agree with you on that, so the logical thing to do(common sense) is to issue more tags. The management tags are more tags and they will not hurt the quality of the bulls, although "quality" is a subjective thing anyway. Your posts implies we need more tags so how many more do you recommend in your perfect world?
 
My projections are based on past trends and numbers on the ground. The biologists say that the calves born is around 55 calves for evey 100 cows EVERY year, winter kill fo relk is almost non-existent, my hunter kills were based on higher than noraml success rates, so my numbers are spot on based on data gathered and offered by the DWR.

10 archery management tags on the San Juan will not even make a ripple on the herd bull/cow ratio.

I agree 100% with quality being a subjective thing, I prefer to look at it as older 'mature' bulls vs younger 'immature' bulls. The bull/cow ratio needs to get down around 50/100, it is now around 80/100 at minimum on the San Juan. Right now there is between 450-500 bulls on this unit, in order to get the bull/cow ratio where it should be there should be no more than 300 bulls in the herd. I know that taking out an 'extra' 150-200 bulls will knock the 'quality' down, so I in no way suggest doing it on one year. I believe bumping the number of LE tags AND issuing spike tags on these units for a couple of years will make good headway toward getting these herds balanced. I would like to see the spike tags be rotated between the San Juan and the LaSal units every other year. This would allow for MORE mature older bulls to be in the mix on the LaSal and lower the bull/cow ratio on the San Juan while maintaining a large number of older bulls. If fewer bulls are recruited into the herd because of spike tags issued every other year, fewer cows will need to be killed, and the older bulls will be allowed to survive to the next year. This would allow for a healthy and balanced herd with a good number of mature older bulls in the mix. It would also make it ppossible to issue MORE LE tags on the LaSal unit will maintaining objectives there.

PRO
 
your right they are not going to accomplish anything they should have given three times the management tags they did. There are way to many bulls in these units and no cows. Makes alot of sense lets kill 400 cows and 40 bulls. I dont think the genetics are to much of a problem when a 370 380 bull is nothing anymore. they could get rid every 5 point out there and there would still be to many bulls. But 40 bulls is still 40 bulls less next year no matter how you look at it.
 
You guys are assuming that the state is "managing" for genetics and not Bull #'s. The ONLY way to lower the Bull/Cow ratio is to kill more Bulls, or bring in more Cows. So are you against them killing more Bulls, or against them not managing the unit strictly for size????
 
I am very much for the management tags IF they make them a regular limited entry permit that takes all your points when drawing just like the any bull limited entry tags. I believe the hunting of 5 points in the limited entry units is a great way to increase hunter opportunity to hunt our elk herds without cutting top end quality very much. If it required cashing in your points for these tags these would be a great option for people with 4-8 points to draw. If they made the bonus points work with these tags just like the regular any bull limited entry permits i would be a proud supporter of giving management tags for every limited entry season on most limited entry units in the state.

I completely disagree with the current practice that lets people kill a 5 point on the Pahvant and not lose their points. I assure you there would have been 20 people willing to burn 4-8 points to shoot a 5x5 on the Pahvant...but instead they gave the permits to guys who still have their points. With the extreme backlog of elk permit applicants I cannot understand who thought this scheme up.

Also, I believe that people harvesting young 2 and 3 year old 5x5's is exactly what the DWR wants to happen with these tags. A greatly simpified example of this is: If a mountain can support 10 bulls you could either grow 10 9-year old bulls and let 10 people hunt them once every 9 years and kill them or you could shoot all of the bulls every three years letting 30 people hunt and kill elk in the same 9 year period. Of course I dont want the DWR to issue enough elk tags to kill every bull at 3 years of age, but I firmly believe that more people could hunt and kill elk on the limited entry units of Utah with a properly ran management tag program to compliment the extreme opportunity limiting any bull permit program currently in place on these units.

And I have 13 Utah bull elk bonus points.

-RPinenut
 
My unit had 34 tags issued.

Pro-
So what you are saying is that more Bull tags are good but the management tags(which are more tags) are a bad idea. MMMMM? Not quite sure I follow you. Yeah I know the recruitment issue right? Also, out of the 55 calves born to the 100 cows every year how many will be bulls and how many cows? Our STATS say 27 1/2 will be bulls and 27 1/2 will be cows but we both know that won't happen. It is different year to year. So say they issued 68(my unit) more bull tags or even 102 tags then would you be happy? Thing is, with so many factors and things changing year to year the plan has been tweaked and will continue to get tweaked to make the herd healthy and where it should be. The tag numbers are changed every year. Recently they have been increasing but once we get closer to objectives they will decrease. Everybody will be happy. I am just lucky enough to be able to hunt a "management bull" this year. As far as I am concerned these management tags could be considered the same as a LE tag. The mature 5x5's, 5x6's, etc are great bulls.
 
Pinenut is right.

I had the big game coordinator tell me he did NOT CARE what 'quality' of bulls were killed with the management tags, he just wanted MORE bulls killed on these units to lower the bull/cow ratio.

I believe that we could lower the bull/cow ratios on these premium units and STILL have the 400 class bulls running around, in fact I contend we would have MORE of them. A healthier bull will grow bigger antlers than a bull ran ragged going into winter. Get the herds to objectives, right now the age harvest numbers, and the bull/cow ratios are nowhere close to objective, and on MANY LE units they are getting further away by the year. We have EXCESS mature bulls on EVERY premium LE unit, getting that number down will move the herds closer to objectives AND more hunters can HUNT! A win/win deal.

PRO
 
pro kinda lost me on that one too. but I guess as long as he knows what he talking about thats what matters. He is the pro
 
I have a new problem for you to mull over , I have a late any bull tag this year and have been doing some scouting the last couple of weekends and I am finding more than a few broken bulls that will be shot as Management bulls when they really aren't . several of them look like 5x5 or 5x6 but when you put the spotting scope on them for a better look you can see that they are 6x6s that are broken off . which makes me wonder if you are having a true management hunt why not do it early before they are all broken up ?????
 
>I have a new problem for
>you to mull over ,
>I have a late any
>bull tag this year and
>have been doing some scouting
>the last couple of weekends
>and I am finding more
>than a few broken bulls
>that will be shot as
>Management bulls when they really
>aren't . several of them
>look like 5x5 or 5x6
>but when you put the
>spotting scope on them for
>a better look you can
>see that they are 6x6s
>that are broken off .
>which makes me wonder if
>you are having a true
>management hunt why not do
>it early before they are
>all broken up ?????

One of MANY reasons I dislike the 'management tags'.

My numbers are right from the DWR guys, if they are confusing or you have issue with them, bring it up at the RAC's. I am confused at to what numbers you have issue with, please clarify.

PRO
 
I agree with Pinenut that alot of guys with low points would be willing to burn them on these managment tags. Heck I might be willng to use my points on one. Maybe a shorter waiting period say three years.

A couple of posts up Pro mentions he would like to see spike tags instead of these tags. I don't like spike tags never have. Why not 2 points or three points instead of spikes pick a better age than spikes. Issue a bunch of four point only tags instead of spikes on all the spike units. Did I mention I don't like the spike tags!

Allen
 
yak4fish, hey I started I400 on the idea of getting rid of spike tags satewide, until I learned where they can be of value. Problem with having a 2 point, or 3 point, or even a 4 point tags is it would lead to alot of illegally killed bulls. The watered down version the sate went woth on the management tag compared to what the elk committee recommended is because of fear of illegally killed bulls.

The reason I think spike tags on these units is a better management plan is because I see the potential for less illegally killed bulls and fewer legit book bulls that are broken harvested by someone who is getting an 'extra' tag to hunt a trophy class bull because if he kills a 'management bull he gets to keep his points AND not have to wait five years like other LE hunters have to. There are only so many spikes in a herd, and the success rates are very low for spike hunters, which means MANY hunters can be given tags with little/no risk of over harvest. So, the risk of killing a trophy class bull is nil, yet the bull/cow ratio would be lowered, meaning more cows could be in the herd, which means more calves born in the spring, which means MORE big bulls down the road. A rotation with other LE units of issueing spike tags would benefit ALL LE units involved.

PRO
 
I think it is BS that you still get to keep your points, if you draw these management tags.

I also think it is funny that you would want to drop one year behind on a unit that is managed for trophy bulls. Now you could be 20 years behind on your quest for a big bull!

Pro is right again! They need to kill more bulls period. Killing 10 or 15 bulls isn't going to do it. Release the tags! Get the bull to cow ratio back in order and get the guys with high points the heck out of the way.

Elk hunting shouldn't be a once in a life time hunt!!!!!
 
I agree with Pro on this one . As I said in my other post there are going to be a lot of bulls taken on the management tag that are not lagit management bulls, but yet they are going to get there points back after they shoot one . I also think that you should burn your points no matter what you draw . I have been putting in in Utah for 30 years and had to jump to the late hunt to get my once in a lifetime tag .
 
Pro

It stinks that the DWR has to not use a antler restriction because of potential illegal harvest(poaching).It would be nicer to have a four point only tag in my pocket than a spike tag by far.

They need to get rid of that keep your points thing if you harvest a managment bull. Let hunters decide if its worth it to use there points on a managment bull hunt.If not sell them first come first serve.

The broken antler trophy is bad luck for the bull. I hope the DWR keeps records after this years hunt to see how much of this really happens. I'm guessing less than 10 percent will be broken trophys.

Allen
 
swd404bull-
I would love to see some pics and here the story of your giant and yes I would like to know where some big management bulls are. The few weekends we have scouted we have seen some great bulls, but all the more info is helpful. Send me a PM if you can.

Pro-
The issue is not about your numbers. The issue is that you seem to contradict yourself by saying they need more tags but also saying the management hunt is a bad idea.

What is the big deal about not losing your points? Anybody could have put in for this hunt. Not losing your points was a big incentive to put in for this hunt for me. I like the idea.

A few broken bulls will probably be harvested but this comes along with the territory. Besides, as Pro said, the DWR does not care about the quality of bulls killed they just want less bulls.
 
p-nut, says lose your points. I totally agree. Hunting a LE without using a point is total bs. They talk opportunity and the point creep but then they go and make an assinine rule like keeping your points? Go figure that one out.
 
>p-nut, says lose your points. I
>totally agree. Hunting a LE
>without using a point is
>total bs. They talk opportunity
>and the point creep but
>then they go and make
>an assinine rule like keeping
>your points? Go figure that
>one out.

Igotabigone, this is why I don't like the management tag. As the wise ktc said, "it is total bs".

Good luck on your SWD management tag BTW!

PRO
 
I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with PRO! Not in anyway I'm a Outfitter, but if they keep doing this mangement hunt the people who put in should have to hire a guide for this hunt and the guide would be the police. Last weekend I was looking at mid 380 class bull that was probaby a 390 to 395 bull before the rut he was 6 x 6 and the G5 that was busted off. All that was left was no more than a 1/2". This makes it legal in this mangement hunt. With a little taxy magic a lucky hunter would have a great looking 6x6. And knowing how cheap us Utahn's are! We wouldn't pay for the guide and it would force the DWR to do the right thing, most likely not enough people would put in. But if they did hire a guide, the guide would be there to make sure hopfully the right bull is being taken. A week after this management hunt I'll be out looking for magpies and crows circling over nice 6x6 bulls that were a little weak on oneside with his G5 but a little to strong on this G5 for this mangement Hunt. "BRUSH BULL" DIDN'T WANT TO GET IN TROUBLE!! P.S. STOP KILLING SO MANY COWS IN SOUTHWEST DESERT, AND GIVE SOME MORE BULL TAGS OUT!!! 16 BULLS TO 6 COWS NOT A GOOD RATIO. VERY COMMON SITE!
 
I like the idea of a management/opportunity tag, but the way they are doing it makes no sense starting with the points system. I've spent over 20 days on the SWD since the middle of August until yesterday. The more time that went by I saw more and more management bulls. Not 5x5's but busted 6x6's and so on. It kills me to know that big busted 6x6's will be killed on this hunt. I say give 30 management tags for archery, 15 for the early rifle and be done with it. Then throw out 40 spike tags for the youth and other opportunists. There are more than enough bulls to go round for those numbers in my opinion. Just make sure you burn their bonus points.
 
Well until they change the rules....

I still am going to try for a San Juan bow tag.

Maybe even draw if they increase them to 40 or 50 tags like is being suggested to bring the 'ratio' into place. Makes sense to me.

Robb
 
Middlehoof:
Wouldn't it be easier to just kill the bull of your dreams and then after the photos bust a point off so you don't get in trouble?(then rub a little dirt and pine in the stub) I don't have a tag but I've heard it threw the grapevine this is what some people will do if they can't find the right bull! Sad but true!! Also if they keep doing this management hunt? For the Southwest desert tags they better give out complimentary wild horse tags also, "there like flies out there"
 

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