UTAHNS----GO BIG OR GO HOME

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Tuffbucker

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As the general season deer hunt is almost upon us, I just wanted to send out a message to all those Utah hunters heading to the hills this weekend......GO BIG OR GO HOME!!!

I know that there is A LOT that needs to be done to help improve our deer herds, and to insure that the quality of our bucks improve, and one thing I've learned is that you cant shoot a big buck, if you shoot a small one. So this is my challenge to all those Utah hunters.....heck, to all those hunters everywhere....leave those dinks alone this year and eat tag soup if you must. GO BIG OR GO HOME!!


TUFF

Good luck everyone!!
 
I passed on 5 dinks on the muzz hunt. I still have my tag. Tuff is right you wont get a pig if you shoot a dink. 4 point or better state wide!
 
I hear you loud and clear. I agree, let the little ones grow up. We can't have big ones without little ones growing up.
 
Great Post! There is no shame in coming home empty handed knowing you passed on today's dink but tommorow's whopper buck.
 
TB,

I am going to be nice about this, OK? I chuckled when I read your post. Do you honestly believe that people are going to do this? Do you think people in general have the mental ability to police themselves? Do you think that the attitude of most is going to be I will go home without first? Do you think I will witness anything less than before? No deer on the opening, then as the week progresses babies galour will start coming off the mountain.

To answer the questions for you, NO!

This goes back to the argument I have made over and over. You sell 3X's the tags than bucks and odds are at least one third of the population is going kill something because they can. I hate to say it, but those in charge need to limit the tags and not have to hope that people come home without because it ain't happening.

Forgive me for "whining." ;-)

I saw a herd of 4 babies the other day. I looked at my brother and told him I hope they wise up soon.
 
I hate to play the devils's advocate... because I agree. I wish people would pass on smaller bucks, not only to strengthen herds, but to allow more bucks to mature. That being said, it is definately the stance of a trophy hunter. Not all those people out there are chasing horns, some go just for the experience, to be outside, with friends and family. Some love the meat, what do they care whether it came from some huge 4x4 or a dink? When I hunted with my dad as a kid, we road hunted... and would have shot the 1st thing with horns we saw. In fact, in the seven years before I was old enough, he killed one 2-pt. And I couldn't have been happier about it. Again, I agree, we need to manage our herds better and get deer numbers up. But we just need to remember, not all of us are after monsters...

-Lucas :)~

http://www.monstermuleys.com/cgi-bin/stories/site.pl?page=lucasdavis10103
 
I have been hired by Brian to tend the site and spread my diatribe. Oh, whoops, I need to go look that one up. I am uneducated. ;-) However, no 4 letter words Pete! ;-) I am behaving myself these days. Nope, no more trouble from me!

What is big? A big 2-point? A big doe? A big spike? It has "character?" Maybe it had a big track so therefore it should be whacked? Utahns couldn't even abide by the spike elk only law, how does one think people can possibly abide a wish by one MM guy?

Don't get me wrong, I wish people would police themselves. Better yet, don't sell them a tag. Now there is a idea. Then, whoever has a tag can shoot whatever they want and some will be left over to grow. I almost forgot 97,000 is the magic number.

Go read the F&G website TB. One could only believe this is going to be another banner year. They cut and pasted the article from 1947. "Hunters should see more deer this year."

Oh, I almost forgot. I am not a biologist. ;-)

HoundDawg's lions ate 'em all again. That is the problem.
 
Maybe Brian (founder) thought was right when he suggested one deer every two years. I just reuped my dedicated hunter this year so I just might go without.
 
I always passed the dinks on opening morning. Without fail, someone was right behind me and they never did pass. I don't donate my $ to general season tags anymore. Every year without fail, no matter what the herd condition, the local paper reads something like 'DWR says deer outlook better than last year'. What a joke.
 
For some reason I get the feeling that this statement "Go big or go home" is falling on the wrong ears. MMers are not the ones that need the policing. Somebody needs to go to the local Walmart/Albertsons on Friday afternoon and talk to anybody coming out of there pushing a cart filled with quantities of beer that can be measured in gallons not ounces and explain that killing "anything with horns" is detrimental to our deer herd. After they kick your ass I'm sure they will pass up that forky the next morning so they have to ride around on a cold bumpy road on their 4 wheeler instead of being able to stay in camp by the fire and drink more beer.

All kidding aside I don't believe that people are going to change the way they hunt. Hell I've tried to convince my dad that if he shoots a forky the first morning he won't have a chance at a 4 pt some time later, and I'm almost sure come Saturday Morning I'll be packing his forky back to the truck. Not that he's an unethical hunter he just grew up shooting the first buck you see so that you could have the meat for the winter. So did the rest of Utah and you won't change that outlook too easily.

Like was stated earlier you have to limit the number of hunters to decrease the numbers of deer killed. I will say though that I have seen a slight change of opinion in a good portion of hunters over the past several years that won't shoot a forky, whereas they used to dump at least one durring each season. We're on our way, but we're not there yet. I think this site does a lot helping us get there.

RW
 
Hate to burst your bubble, but if you want to kill trophy bucks you need to quit shooting the big ones!

If you have a little honey hole and you hunt all week passing up the small ones, then shoot a big 160" or 170" buck on the last day because he was the biggest you could find (though you really wanted a 180" or 190" buck), you aren't doing yourself any favors.

If you want to kill a monster you need to let those big bucks go another year or two and if you really want to shoot something, shoot a little one.

Trophy bucks are way better off with us shooting little bucks rather than almost mature bucks!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-04 AT 02:26PM (MST)[p]MDC

I'd hope that good hunters are self policing. I agree I'd rather see someone smoke a spike that will take years to get big than a deer that will make it huge in 1-2 more years. But everyone starts somewhere. Personally I"d be happy with a 150. But after that I'll only shoot a larger one. I keep telling my buddies how many of the same size do they want in the garage?

I mostly hunt WT but over the years I've gone from tagging out to shooting only a doe or two and going 4-5 years between bucks. NOt from the lack of hunting, but it gets harder to top last years.....

Hope that makes sense, though it sure seems the majority don't care. Heck I was in camp in NM with 11 others a few weeks back. Most had the I'll shoot the first legal one thought train. Only I and another held out. Why I do I"m not sure because my largest is a big forky with a bow. But I held out for my 180 to come back out and he never did.

Jeff

I shoulda added the only flaw in your thought is if they shoot all the little ones we get the shaft....
 
I will be looking for a decent sized 3pt or better. No willow horns or tiny horns. I am caught right in the middle of wanting horns, and wanting some meat. I have been passing on little ones for years now and will continue to do so. I can always bum some meat off of the guy in the next camp who shot the one-side spike buck. LOL LOL
 
It's not flawed thinking? You're not changing the buck harvest, just the age class of bucks being harvested to a younger age class providing an older age class of escapement. Hence, creating an older age class in the structure of the population.
 
You guys crack me up!!
I see you guys hunting the premium areas and very few of you
guys hold out for large bucks! (taking 1 1/2-2 1/2 year old
bucks).
The only UTAHNS I see holding out for nice bucks are hunting other states!
ONLY WHAT I SEEN!!(but have seen it all!!)
see y'all opening day!
Rackmaster
 
Compared to 90 percent of the harvest a 160-170 buck isn't big, it's huge!!!
 
I'll agree...nice sentiment but we all know this isn't the place to rally the big bucks only logic. We've all hunted UT on the opening day...holy crap what a zoo. If a doe stands in front of tree that looks like horns she's dead. Shoot now and check er on the ground! Ooops thats a doe....I swear I saw horns!! That is the Utah hunters logic. I don't even know how much I believe the
"we want the meat" theory of most people. The typical Utah hunter wants to kill something. A spike in the hand is better then telling your buddies you came up empty. I'm not talking about those on MM but my point is I also agree F&G has to control it. Will they? You can see how that is going but we can always pray! I I also see the logic in letting the smaller 3-4 points go because they will be real trophies in a year or two. hopefull F&G will get it right someday. I don't know the answer so I guess I just wanted to vent. If anything instead of go big or go home...I would say be a sportsman. Hunt ethically, be responsible, be safe, and have fun...be it a spike, 3 pt or 190 buck. Good luck and I only wish I was hunting with you all.

CPSANDMAN
"The Buck stops here...I hope!"
 
I remember the days when it was a rare sight to see a mature bull elk in Utah. Since Utah went to spike only areas the number of mature bulls sky-rocketed. So my question is, would the same method work for deer. Limit the harvest to 2 point or spike for a period of (X) years. Not too far down the road the number of mature bucks would dramatically increase. At that point something would need to be done to retain a healthy number of those bucks. HMMMMMM! maybe cutting the tag numbers.
I would guess such a management practice would be met with much controversy. Shooting a spike elk is one thing but shooting a 2 point is taboo for many hunters.
Just a thought!!
 
Sorry to be so blunt but of the many stupid ass threads that have been on this website over the past few years, this one ranks right near the top.

Go big or go home. That's funny amigo!! It would be even funnier if you directed it towards Utah hunters... Oh wait, I guess you DID!! OK, I was wrong, that is DAMN FUNNY!!! Hilarious.

Hey, that gives me an idea. Let's eliminate all cashiers and checkers from all the stores. We'll do an "honor system". You just stroll into RC Willey and pick you up a big screen TV and leave your money in the drawer cuz there won't be any cashier or store workers. Just make sure you pay on your way out. Honor system people!! Go load up at Albertsons on beer and ice and snacks for the big game this Sunday, and don't forget to mail them off a check on Monday for your goodies. Oh and this weekend, make sure your 15 year old son only shoots a 30" buck or bigger driving up the road in Ogden canyon, OK. Thanks, I knew you'd understand. Besides, why would your son want to shoot that 3X3 standing on the hill? That won't get him on the cover of Muley Crazy or Eastman's?

C'mon think here people. Deer hunting isn't about getting out with your family or kids and teaching them about hunting. It's not about an experience in the outdoors, it's about killing a 240 B&C mule deer and making the cover of a magazine. THAT is what it's all about. Why I can remember as a teenage boy watching some deer across the canyon and my dad using it as a teaching moment, "Now son, as much as I'd like to let you shoot that deer, he's only an average 3X4 so I simply can't. You'll never become the next Kirt Darner shooting deer like that. Now put your gun away, let's go home and look at your Kings Calendars for a few hours so you can know what to look for next time we come up here." Ah, the memories...

By the way folks. I noticed on the DWR website this year they gave away at least 1,471 antlerless deer tags, and probably more. My guess is last year was AT LEAST that many. So that's about 3,000 or more doe tags issued the past two years in Utah.

Piss and moan all you want about predators, but guys in Orange vests have always been and will always be the biggest predator on the mountain. Let the bullets fly this weekend boys and I'll see ya all on the cover of Muley Crazy!! Gotta go look through my Kings Calendar again and get an idea of what I'm looking for.
 
Check out Idaho where the General Hunt in some areas is 2 point or less and the Controlled Hunt for the same area is any buck. They are taking some real BIG Bucks in those areas. I believe it is working.
 
The DWR loves these types of threads. Maybe people will believe that the reason our deer herds are so bad is because people shoot 2-points.

But I understand your point to an extent; I can see some people holding back but I have nothing against responsible hunters shooting 2-points. I think shooting them has very little to do with the demise of our "trophy" bucks.
 
Why is it your responsibility to tell everyone else what they need to shoot? It's pretty easy for some of you who have hunted for 20-30-40-years to tell everyone to hold off, but what about the others that have different reasons than you. Hunters killing small deer was not what causes our herds to go to #####, it was the drought as well as the legislature cutting back the money that was given to the DWR. The herd will rebound, but it will be because of effort, not because someone passes on a small deer
 
Wouldn't it be better to weed out the smaller ones anyways? Pass on the big ones and let them spread there genes for a few years? What would you rather happen a small 2-3 pt spread its genes or a decent buck spread its genes. If we are worried about the number of big bucks? Why are we taking them? It doesn't make sense.
 
Didn't all our grandads and great grandads, shoot anything they saw? Whether it be a 4 point or a spike. The deer herds weren't struggling then so obviously there is another reason for the absense of deer. Not because Billy Bob shot a dink while road hunting. Maybe the thing to do for "us responsible hunters" is to not hunt at all for a few years.
 
Just a quick two cents.... passing on genes has nothing to do with the age of the animal. To use a human anology, if a guy knocks up his wife (or neighbor, or in some states, cousin) at the age of the 14 and then again at the age of 40, the same baby batter is still being used. Only difference is he may be a little smarter after blowing out a few years of birthday candles. Mother nature built the rut to ensure that the wisest craftiest critters spread their genes, age with deer can lend itself to "smarts" but not always. Remember that the breeding process also involves the doe which also contribute 50% of genes, so in all rights, her papa's genetics will also be passed along. Mothers natures way of keeping the genepool nice and deep.


You will never have big deer if you don't have a lot of little deer. Look at Colorado, since the start of the Limited entry drawings 5 years ago, the buck to doe as well as class of buck numbers have greatly increased, and as we work out of this drought, its gonna get real good. Utah, and Kalifornia are selling the hunting souls of grandkids to come by overselling tags creating overcompetition for a limited resource.

Bravo to Colorado and Nevada (there may be others but I'm not familiar), for their stance and results.


?America is a great country, the harder you work the luckier you get.?
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five_point_buck
AKA Larry Pasero Jr.
 
Nothing better than an internet pissin' match about Utah deer management!

Colorado's wildlife manager finally admitted in public that serious tag restrictions have had an incredible effect of the overall quality and quantity of bucks. Especially in the Gunnison Basin where some of the most dramatic tag restrictions went into place and have also showed some of the most dramatic turnaround in quality and quantity of bucks.

For years, the official DOW mantra has been "you can't stockpile bucks" because of secondary mortality factors i.e. winterkill, roadkill and predation. Well guess what? They have a stockpile of bucks in the Gunnison Basin now and some of the best mule deer hunting in the West. Ding, ding. Hello.

It proves that hunters are the single biggest cause of mule deer buck mortality and when you dramatically reduce that factor you have a compensatory rise in mule deer buck survival. We have an increase in mule deer buck numbers in the heavily hunted western units because we quit wiping out the 1 1/2 year old buck age class on an annual basis.

I know this is some deep stuff for those of you who dropped out of high school early to become Governor's tag deer guides so I'll try to make this a concise statement, and in one sentence.

If you shoot fewer bucks, you will have more of them getting older every year and at some point the greater distribution of bucks throughout the age classes will result in a distribution of buck harvest thoughout those same age classes with semi-conservative tag allotments.
 
Dang Buckspy...thats friggn' funny. I like it...use what works. To bad politics and $$ have to play such a roll in UT. "Limit tags" is like a swear word to F&G. Like I said before...I can keep praying they will get it right. Good post though Buckspy, that high school drop out line still has me laughing.

CPSANDMAN
"The Buck stops here...I hope!"
 
You are right, and that should go for all states and hunters that have any interest in improving trophy quality in our deer herds. We saw 40-50 bucks this last week and took two biggest. The 10-15 up and coming monsters will triple the number of big ones next year. We decided not to shoot a pair of average ones to let them grow, they made the mistake of getting close to a 4 wheeler trail and were waxed the next day... made us sick! On the bright side, I think our herds are improving!
 
I have to disagree with some of your statement, five point buck. Yes, the same "baby batter" is used no matter if the buck is 2 or 10. However, the problem with letting immature bucks doing the breeding is the timing. Typically, young bucks will not breed as aggressively as the mature deer (you know, first time jitters and all). Breeding the does later in the year leads to fawns being born later in the spring, which leads to lower body weights for that next winter and higher fawn mortality. IN the perfect world, all the does get bred quickly and the fawns are all born early in the spring, all within a short time frame. Lots of fawns on the ground at the same time leads to lower predator mortality and the early birth mean higher body weights and better winter survival. This is why it is so important to have mature deer (and a good population of them) doing the breeding, even though "any" deer can get the job done.

Also, Valerius Geist, a noted mule deer biologist has stated that hunters should harvest 4 or 5 YEARLING deer before being allowed to harvest a mature buck. The reason? The largest mortality rate occurs on the deer entering their first winter (i.e. that years fawns), so by hunting them in the fall, you are harvesting deer that will most likely not survive the upcoming winter anyway. He claims this will allow hunter opportunity, increase deer populations and dramatically increase both buck:doe ratios and mature buck populations. Its an interesting thought that makes sense if you think about it.
 
All great points being made up to this point...One thing we (the sportsmen) would need to realize, if the DWR would restrict tags and cut revenue, we could no longer complain about the lack of projects going on to improve habitat. That is if we assume that all hunting revenue is used for those types of projects. Anyway, I would support it if it is proven to do some good things for buck to doe ratios and overall numbers. The point made earlier, or maybe it was on another post about selling different types of tags, ie. 2, 3, or 4 point or better might help find a balance between the needs of the herds, and the wants of the hunters. That, of course, if hunters would police themselves and not shoot what they didn't have a tag for. I believe the biggest point to be made is WE need to be responsible and smart about the things that WE can control. Don't bother much with the things that are out of our hands like which buck will breed which doe. If it would improve numbers to restrict tags or force people to shoot the small/large bucks, then WE need to do it. IT IS IN OUR HANDS!!!
 
You guys aren't really going to let this thing die before it hits 50 are you? Where's are all the armchair biologists?
 
I had a guy tell me a few years back that each deer hunter should have to bring in a set of coyote ears before DWR issues them a tag. Thinking back on that conversation I kinda chuckle--but the idea is a good one.

I use to fancy myself a mule deer and elk hunter, you know, lobbied for hunters, fought the good fight, lived and breathed the stuff all fall. But it's funny how life changes. Lookng back, I haven't bought a deer or elk tag in over eight years.

Utah began their quality deer and elk herd programs back in the early 90s and I traded in my big game tags in for a set of big game hound pups and never looked back. I hunt something year round now with those hounds instead of participating in a shrinking sport (deer hunting). You see, I wanted to hunt more rather than less.

In a way you guys should think people like me cause I kill no deer and hammer the lions. But instead of a "thanks" what I'd really appreciate is a little tolerance for hounds in the field. Continuing complaints by big game hunters to DWR will result in shorter seasons on lions and bears, which isn't in a deer hunters best interest. Now that's alot to ask but the idea is something that will surely come back to the deer and elk hunters.

Best Regards,
Ike
 
Ok, after attending Utah's pumpkin fest opener yesterday, I think the new motto "go big or go home" should be changed to "Shoot One And Be Done!"
 
The DWR could easily cut tags and make money infact even more then what they do now. How many of us put in for Wyoming in March and then don't find out until July and then alot of time not getting a refund until August. Now it isn't a $5.00 fee it is all or nothing and send in check or money order. And then they cash it. Wow that is alot of money. Lets see full price of the tag in the bank and drawing intrest. That is alot of money for the DWR to make up for the lack of tags. I would have no problem if they did that. In fact do it for the elk and all other tags in the state. That is alot of money for the state to really help the herds out and other wildlife.
It would incress the drawing odds for all animals. You wouldn't get Uncle TOM putting in for his WIFE MARY and HER SISTER MISSY and HER HUSBAND and HER DAD and then HIS UNCLE. Get the picture. Sure I am going to hear about it and people are going to say it isn't fair it limits what I can hunt and won't have the chance to hunt what I want. But how many of us do what it takes to do what we want. How many of you saved up for the new car, house, boat. If you want it you will do what it takes.
 
Hey Ike you got a big thanks coming from my way. I support the houds men all the way, In fact I wish they would give more tags. In fact I am wondering if you have hounds that I can release on those people building houses on the mtn. bench. I wonder how many of you that are bitching and moaning about the herds have their houses on the mtn. and the old winter range. Look at the point of the mtn. How can we have great herds if the winter range is gone. Two things that hurt the herd over hunters is us as humans wanting the view and predators. I think we need a surcharge to those that want the view and build on the winter range and use that money to go back to the DWR or to buy or lease a place close so that they can have some range left before its gone. If we as sportsman want to hunt in the future we are going to have to reach in our pockets and give alittle more. This is something I love and I feel the hurt when prices go up but when you are out and get the deer or elk it washes all that hurt away. I am willing to give more and do more to bad there isn't more like that.
 
3 point on each side or you cannot shoot!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have a youth hunt for any type of points and that would allow the small boys get bigger!!!!!!!!!!!!


NBJB
 
oh course not everyone is going to pass up the little ones, but if this message could get across to even a small % of the hunters out there that would have shot the first buck they saw then this post is a success! you have to start somewhere. travis
 
3 or 4 points to a side limitations doesn't work...Wyoming tried this system for several years and the number of big mature bucks went down. The Game & Fish found out that by imposing these restrictions they increased the pressure on the bigger bucks. Many of the hunters who would have been satisfied with a 2 or 3 pointer had to hold out for something bigger. This resulted in a larger harvest of mature or close to mature bucks leaving behind a bunch of immature weaners.

One thing I would like to see tried in some areas is a rotation quota, where one year only a limited number of does could be harvested, completely protecting all bucks. Every other year would allow limited buck hunting of any size. I think you would see dramatic results in the quality and ratio of the herds within 4 years.

We can also learn from the Kentucky Derby horse breeders. In their quest for the ultimate race horse they have tried every angle there is in regards to breeding. What they found through years of trial and error is that the batter/mix does get better with age when it comes to the stud. The best mix which produces champions time after time, is breeding an older stud with quality genes to a much younger mare.

Young studs with young mares produce offspring that are lacking and slow to develope. Hormonal stimulation throughout maturity obviously plays a role in gene replication.
 
i met a hunter this year and we were talking about our herds here in az. he brought up somthing i thought was interesting.
he suggested closing 1 or 2 units every year to deer hunting.they would lose some money but if they did what someone posted earlier and keep those 20 or 30 doolar refund they would be ok. just a thought. i don;t claim to have the awnsers,just shootin from the hip.
jd
 

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