Utah elk. Have you done the math?

txhunter58

Long Time Member
Messages
8,499
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-07 AT 09:35AM (MST)[p]

I guess if I had a bunch of points for Utah, I might stay in the race. But for those of you like me that are in no man's land (3 points), have you done the math to see what your odds really are of EVER drawing a tag?

Take a look at this chart from here on MM:

http://monstermuleys.hunterstrailhead.com/huntsearch.php?ST=UT

For the hunt I want, my odds are approximately 1 in 1000 of gettting a tag. If I decided to try for an archery hunt in that same area, my odds would jump to a 1 in 333 chance.

It doesn't take a genius in math to figure out that I wouldn't bet on getting a tag in my lifetime. So why would I send them $75 bucks a year?

Yes, odds will probably go up when some people (like me) drop out. But lets be optomistic and say that my chances would double: That means I would have a 1 in 500 (a 0.2% chance) and an 1 in 166 chance (0.6% chance). Statistically, that is not much of an improvement.

Yes, you have to "pay to play", but with those long odds, I can think of much better things to do with my money.

And guess what guys, those that are thinking they will stay in because they are applying for a unit with better odds than those just mentioned? What if others study the odds and decide to put in for a unit with better odds? Suddenly your odds drop to where mine are.

For those that stay in, Good luck you you, at least 1 in 1000 of you........

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I agree, it sucks. What is really frustrating is when I go filming the big boys during the rut on the Pahvant, Wasatch, and Beaver there seems to be just as many mature bulls as cows. I think many of them will die of old age.
 
I've always heard the draw odds were horrible in UT, but never looked much into it. I put in last year for my first time. My question is, do the draw odds still suck if you plan on waiting 10-14 years? I wouldn't want the #1 or #2 unit either, just a solid unit that I could draw in 10-14 years - is this possible?
 
the problem is, most look at max points and think they'll stay at that level. It doesn't happen that way. It's 14 points now and with only a cpl tags/year, 10 years from now it will take 18-20 points.

Pretty sick when we look at 1/300 odds and think, "gee I might have a shot".

I'm like you, I have 3 points and no chance.
 
THATS BULLSHIT!!!

YOU DO HAVE A CHANCE!!!

MAYBE NOT A GOOD CHANCE BUT NIETHER DOES A BUNCH OF US WITH WAY MORE THAN 3 POINTS!!!

THE UTAH POINT SYSTEM SUCKS!!!

LE UNITS WERE NOT SET UP FOR EVERY TARD IN THE STATE!!!

FUNNY HOW A WHOLE BUNCH OF TARDS THAT DIDN'T PUT ONE RED CENT & ABSOLUTELY NO EFFORT IN TO PROJECTS ON LE UNITS ARE SCREAMING FOR TAGS & OPPORTUNITY AFTER THE QUALITY WAS ACHIEVED!!!

WTF???

I'LL SURE BE GLAD WHEN Pro GETS HIS NEW UNITS STARTED,MAYBE HE CAN SATISFY A BUNCH OF GREEDY TARDS!!!

THE COLD HARD TRUTH IS:::

NOT EVERY TARD IN THE STATE CAN HUNT TROPHY BULLS JUST BECAUSE THEY THINK THERE IS A BUNCH OF THEM DIEING OF OLD AGE,THATS TOTAL BULLSHIT RIGHT THERE!!!

WAKE TF UP!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
AND FURTHER MORE!!!

I'M WAY DOWN IN THE COLORADO POINTS GAME!!!

SHOULD I START SCREAMING???

NO I WON'T!!!

ITS MY OWN DAMN FAULT!!!

I COULDA,SHOULDA STARTED EARNING POINTS 15 YEARS AGO BUT I DIDN'T!!!

MAYBE COLORADO WILL FEEL FOR ME & CHANGE EVERYTHING TO MY ADVANTAGE???

WAKE TF UP!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
I feel for the NR, if I was one and had only 3 points, I would feel the same as many NR do. I would suggest that if you are going to stay in the game to only apply for LE units that issue more than one tag, and/or primitive weapon tags.

I do believe the DWR NEEDS to issue more tags, but I do NOT believe the DWR needs to lower the number of applicants, except for those who 'abuse' the system and do the 'point banking'. I would love to see the DWR make it much harder to turn back a tag after drawing and still get your points. How much that would improve folks odds in unknown, but something that MUST be rectified.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Can you give me a hug pro? I have 1 deer point and I want a Henry rifle tag? Can you you define, develope, and sustain me an opportunity on the Henry Mountains? Snivel, snivel.
 
>Can you give me a hug
>pro? I have 1 deer
>point and I want a
>Henry rifle tag? Can you
>you define, develope, and sustain
>me an opportunity on the
>Henry Mountains? Snivel, snivel.

The 'opportunity' is already THERE! Pay attention. :p

PRO


Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
TX and W-Bob...

Ya got to refocus your unit options..maybe even your weapon choice...

Almost every single 1 tag offering-non-res- unit in Utah LE Bull... goes to a low point applicant...DO NOT EVEN LOOK AT THE DIAMOND MNT...........!

I am a non-res in every other state... I draw tags with low point totals every single year.... good units too...?

I am currently prepping my '08 Vacation projection sheet for the job.... I have all 26 days vacation schedule as I may or may not draw with less than 3 points on certain species in like 4 states.....

There is no reason to get down and depressed.

Ya gotta BELIEVE........

Robb
 
WOW!!!

Pro DON'T EVEN WANT TO ARGUE WITH ME???

I THINK Y'ALL MIGHT BE RIGHT!!!

NO SENSE OF PUTTING IN!!!

ODDS ARE STACKED AGAINST YOU,BETTER SAVE YOUR MONEY!!!

BESIDES!!!

YOUR ALL SCREWING MY ODDS UP EVEN FURTHER THAN THEY'RE ALREADY SCREWED UP!!!

HAPPY HOLIDAYS Pro!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Thanks BESS, happy holidays to you as well.:D

What did you expect me to argue with you about? Drwa odds stink, but there are ways to improve ones odds w/o "messing up BESSY's odds".

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-07 AT 03:57PM (MST)[p]Here is another way of looking at it.

I will be happy to wager $75 to any and all comers (nonresidents) that they personally will not be drawn for an elk tag in Utah.

After all it is ONLY $75 and if you win, you get all your application fees back!

No one will be taking me up on that one. Why? Because they would be throwing their money away. Same as those in my point total that stay in the draw.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
....and further more;

How is a guy supposed to draw a Henry tag with 1 point? No chance at all. I go down there and see bison and monster mule deer that I will never hunt. I bet most of them die of old age. I would like to start an I200 initiative. You can only kill bucks with 5 points or more with a rifle between April 23rd and the 30th. There will be 5000 rifle tags. Bow season will run from May 1st until the tax deadline the following year.
 
JUDAS PRIEST ktc!!!

HOW MANY YEARS & HOW MANY TROPHY BULLS DOES IT TAKE TO BE CONVERTED TO AN OPPORTUNIST???

I'M GONNA ACT JUST LIKE ktc IN A FEW YEARS!!!

I'M GONNA SCREAM MY F#####G HEAD OFF ONE OF THESE DAYS SO PREPARE YOURSELVES!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS PRIEST ktc!!!

Here's a thought - what if everyone gets pissed at the way the G&F does the draw and quits applying. Then, in 10 years, the G&F changes up the draw system. Those who stuck with it over the years will be in high cotton. The G&F will change the way the draw takes place - it's just a matter of when.
 
RE: JUDAS PRIEST ktc!!!

I'm not upset about the odds nor do I expect a tag or more opportunity, I was just pointing out those with a few points in a point state have no shot.

BESSY, WTF!! YOU BETTER CALM TF DOWN OR YOU'LL POP A FRIGGIN VEIN FOR SURE.
WHEN YOU GOING TO PULL THAT BIG STINKIE TAG SO YOU AND YOUR WIFE/COUSIN CAN GET OUTA THE FRIGGIN TRAILER AND SPEND SOME QUALITY TIME OUT IN THE WOODS AND OFF THE COMPUTER??
 
Here's a little tidbit of info for ya'll. The really really really good units in ANY state are hard to draw cause lots of people are trying to draw them. I hope you follow what I'm saying and I am aware it's tough to wrap your brain around something that complex. But if you'll think about it you'll see I'm on to something. And here's another unbeliveable thought! The crappy units are way easier to get a tag in! Who'd a thunk it? Now that Utah has awesome elk and deer units scattered around some people think they want to apply. And it amazes me that some of you are whining about the odds. Where you all in 1980 when we were a "raghorn" state and a 300 inch bull was the bull of a lifetime? Where were you when it was the "Guant" and not much else? BOBCAT is the voice of reason here folks! If you want more and more tags the quality WILL suffer. If we keep changing management guidelines for younger bulls, quality will suffer. If the odds on the Henrys gets down to under 20 to 1, I hope you all draw it and kill a bunch of two points! There just arent supermodels in most of ya'lls kitchens and if there was, then they wouldnt be that super!

BOBCATBESS FOR PRESIDENT!
 
RE: JUDAS PRIEST ktc!!!

WELL Looney TUNE BOB!!!

I SPEND QUALITY TIME EVERY FALL IN THE WOODS!!!

WHEN AM I GONNA DRAW???

WHO THE HELL KNOWS???

WHAT REALLY PISSES ME OFF IS SOMEBODY WITH 3 FRICKEN POINTS WILL DRAW & I WON'T!!!

WTF IS THAT ALL ABOUT???

JUST KIDDIN!!!

IT SHOWS ME THERE IS HOPE FOR LESSER POINTS HOLDERS!!!

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO Pro!!!

HE'S GOT SOMETHING UP HIS SLEEVE THAT MIGHT MAKE SOME OF PISSCUTTER SHOOTERS HAPPY!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS PRIEST ktc!!!

LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-07 AT 07:15PM (MST)[p]AND ONE MORE THING???

WHERE THE HELL IS ww???

THIS THREAD JUST WON'T BE RIGHT WITHOUT HIM CHIMING IN!!!

WE'VE ARGUED THIS OUT FOR 1,00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
& 1 TIMES!!!

HAS ANYTHING CHANGED???

0.K.!!!

I TOOK A FEW ZEROS OFF!!!

((( }> }> }> }> }> }> }> !!! )))

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS PRIEST ktc!!!

.........
>HAS ANYTHING CHANGED???
>
YES IT HAS!!!

bessy put a bunch of friggin 000's and now the page is 12" wide.

hey bess, good luck on the draw.
 
RE: JUDAS PRIEST ktc!!!

THANKS BOB!!!

I NEED ALL THE HELP I CAN GET!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
I cant believe how many people wine cause they dont get to shoot a big elk every year! Maybe you should have started putting in for elk 15 years ago like the rest of us. And tiptoe just wondering how many dead bulls you have found of old age in your trips on the beaver and the pahvant? I spend a little time on those mountains and i havent found many that of died of old age. Im not trying to stir it up, but i like to see big elk and deer. So i am willing to put in my time so some day ill get a chance!
 
I LIKE POST # 23 ALOT!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-07 AT 08:10PM (MST)[p]You have 1 in 300 shot of drawing a tag for one of Utahs top units for elk. What kind of chance does a nonresident have in Colorado with 3 points to hunt their top units? ZERO What are your odds to draw unit 9 or 10 early rifle in Arizona with 3 points as a nonresident? ZERO. Looks like Utahs system is not so bad after all. What a concept people with the most points have the best chance of drawing.
 
I am not about whining, just about doing the math. What is it to you if I don't apply to Utah? You should be happy, it will increase your odds. You are trying to argue yourself in to worse odds. Go figure.

I am just a logical kind of guy, and logic tells me I would be throwing my money away by applying. That is all.

As stated in my last post, it is a sucker bet. 1 in 300 is 1 in 300 any way you slice it. Yes, I would have a shot, but then I could be struck by lightening tomorrow too. I won't hold my breath for anyone on this thread to draw a tag unless you have a lot more points than I do.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
bobcat, Ups, bragabit, bigbuckchaser, EXACTLY!

No one wants to draw a damn raghorn unit, but when they grow them big people come out wanting an opportunity!

tx, I know you are not whining, but some of these tardos on here think they need more tags to shoot it down.

Die of old age? What pinhead started that argument? In 3 straight years I have found exactly none.
 
For all the "opportunists" that are chomping at the bit to draw a LE tag, or better yet those who believe they will never draw a tag.... Here is what you can do: Go get you a Cabelas Visa and make a charge for about 6 or 7K and hunt a CWMU.

Then you can make small monthly payments. You would be making yearly payments anyway to the MEAN, UNFAIR, DWR. It might take you 15-20 years to pay off the loan but that would probably be quicker than drawing a tag.
 
woodruff, I think you may be on to something.

Before the point system was put into place my friends dad had been applying for the Monroe unit in Utah. He continued to apply for the Monroe unit up until he finally drew and shot a 350 class bull. We added up the years and it took him 28 years to draw that tag. I don't want to hear whining from anybody about how hard it is to draw a damn tag. He was 67 when he finally drew the tag. Talk about once in a lifetime hunts!

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
txhunter88 you are very right, I have seen many guys dupe themselves into believing they will draw, I have even had some tell me I must have made a math error when I tell them any good rifle tag in Utah has over 1000:1 odds for a new NR.

Likely it will take you 10 years to get a 5% chance. Tons of guys and few tags.

As for issuing more tags, as a NR I thought that might help my odds, but considering we get 10%, and them max pnt holders take half, SPFW takes a bunch, more tags will trickle down to 3 or 4 more for NR! Not enough to help! And considering it would drop the quality I would not like to see more tags.

I have 6 NR points and apply for bow, it will take a while but I will draw BUT once I do, and then wait the 5 years before I can try again I seriously doubt I will continue to apply in utah.

1000:1 odds, sure someone has to draw, but 999 have to NOT draw.

Keep in mind guys drop out each year etc but still you would have a long long wait. You are being very realistic and not falling for all the hype. Utah is a great elk hunt from what I hear but unless you have been in the game for a while, or are willing to stay in for 15 or more years, it is not worth it.

Also as you if you look at the trend of new apps, even though increased fees drop some out, within a couple years there are still tons of new apps to replace them, and more. So many guys out there plugging these draws and getting people to think they have a chance (sure they do albeit a 1000:1 chance) has tons of new apps each year, you will be ahead in points but you will never reach max and thus have more chances in the draw then these new apps, but they are still hurting your odds. In the last 2 years my odds have not gone up that much because of new apps. Not to mention when there are 300 guys going for one tag, in 2 years there are still 298, plus 50 new guys!

ahh well, when I finally draw it will be a big deal, I am going for the entire season and making it a family trip! After that I will tell stories until I draw about my Utah hunt!
 
WELL!!!

DOES ANYBODY REALIZE WHY THERE ARE FEW TAGS???

THERES JUST NOT AS MANY TAGS AS PEOPLE WANT!!!

THE QUALITY OF UTAH LE UNITS COULD EASILY BE DESTROYED IN ONE YEAR WITH PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!!!

IF THE QUALITY WENT TO HELL HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD BE SCREAMING FOR A TAG???

WAKE THE HELL UP!!!

THERE AIN'T ENOUGH TROPHY BULLS IN TARDVILLE TO FILL EVERYBODY'S DREAMS!!!

A WHOLE BUNCH OF SOMEBODY'S ARE GONNA HAVE TO BE HAPPY WITH PISSCUTTERS!!!

SAD BUT TRUE!!!

THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE SCREAMING & THE ONLY PERSON I KNOW OF TRYING TO CHANGE ANYTHING IS Pro!!!

CHANGES CAN BE A GOOD THING!!!

BUT LETS KEEP THEM THINGS GOOD!!!

I'M HOPEING Pro GETS HIS NEW UNITS STARTED FOR PEOPLE SCREAMING THEY WANT CHANGE!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Pro,
What Units are you including in your proposal for more opportunity? Why did you choose the units you did? There is a very delicate balance between quality and opportunity. I would prefer quality I know some want more opportunity. I was leary of the management hunt on the SouthWest Desert. After helping a couple of friends on this hunt I think it was very effective. It provided opportunity, without affecting the quality of top end bulls. I was glad to see in 2008 points will be used and you will be put on the waiting period if you draw this hunt. I would like to see the dates change to the first week in October right after the muzzleloader hunt, when they are spike hunting other units.
 
The 5 pilot units we are looking at are: N Cache, Wasatch, Nebo, FIsh Lake, and LaSal. We chose these units based on we wanted it spread out to different parts of the state, where these units stand on meeting current management objectives, escapement options for the elk. Two of the units border other states that issue OTC tags where many of the bulls 'raised' in Utah are harvested in Idaho/Colorado. We want to maintain harvest ages in the 3-5 year old range, similar to what objectives are now, with a 30:100 bull:cow ratio, this will ensure the 'quality' is still there. We want to move the rifle hunt into October out of the rut, give a higher percentage o fthe tags to primitive (less effective) weapons, this will allow for MORE tags to be issued w/o changing the harvest numbers by much.

I think the management tag is a complete FAILURE. There were 54 bulls harvested with this tag, with 51 of the bulls being NON-management bulls according to the DWR. What I mean is the bulls where big mature BUSTED up bulls, NOT 'management' bulls. I would rather they either make it a pre-rut hunt so the bulls are true 'management' bulls, or just issue additional tags on these units. Making people lose their points is better than it was, but it is still a seriously flawed tag.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Man, you guy's are nuts! By raising tags to actually get our units at the age objectives they are supposedly managed for would not shoot out the quality. The biologists have told us they could double the tags and not hurt the herd for 7 years. Yes, you herd right, double the tags. Now, do I want to double the tags? No way. Not on the premium units anyways.

Last year on my elk hunt I sat on 2 waterholes seperated by about 5 miles. I had over 40 bulls using these waterholes by the time I shot mine. My bull was a "new" bull to the area the morning I shot him. That is just 1 sliver of paradise on a slightly better than average utah unit. I read on MM this year where a guy killed a really nice 350+ bull, as I recall, he stated he passed up 40 6 point bulls before he shot his. It seems like he got his on the 3rd day. The point to my rant is that the "sky is not falling" in Utah. Drawing a tag in Utah is virtually impossible for anyone starting out right now. They will NEVER hunt LE elk. Should we change the draw and screw all the guy's that have been in line for 15 years? No way. Is their room to utilize the resource on a few select units to give more people a chance to hunt elk? I think so.

I like an idea like pro's where they take a few units and manage them to meet the majority of the hunters ideal's rather than manage ALL the units to meet a very select few's idea of how it should be. I suppose as long as Conservation tag price/value drives utah's herd management this discussion is futile at best. I am just glad I don't have to sweat it any more. It is Colorado and or Wyoming general season for me! Good luck to all of you in the draws! Happy New year!

Chad
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-07 AT 10:39AM (MST)[p]Pro,
I don't know where the DWR got their numbers. I have personally seen 5 management bulls killed on the Southwest desert that were legit management bulls. . 2 5x5, 2 5x6, and 1 5x7 all bulls were 5 on one side and that was all that they ever were. I am sure there were busted bulls killed also. I agree this hunt would be more effective if it was earlier in the year. I have not spent any time on the units that you have in your proposal, so I don't have any problem with them. It would be nice for people to have an alternative to waiting 20 years for a tag. What kind of feedback are you getting from the locals of those areas?
 
I am just repeating what the DWR told me at the Wildlife Board meeting.

I have had some complaints from the 'locals' of these units. I see it as, we are for change as long as it doesn't impact me, for the most part. There are some who have raised legit complaints and we have done our best to address them. I believe MOST elk hunters in Utah would love to have a chance at a 330 bull and be completely happy, yet with the current 'blanket' management plan in place now, you are forced to wait for years when IMHO it is NOT needed to allow those who want a 'good' bull hunt, and yet still maintain the 'top end' units for those who are willing to wait 10+ years to draw atag and want a legit chance at a 'book' bull, of which I am one of. I see it as making it more like the deer, have some 'premium' units and some LE units, and some general season units. That is the goal we are shooting for.

Congrats again Chad on agreat bull taken with a great tag!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro,
What kind of feedback are you getting from the DWR? Do you think that your plan will become a reality?
 
We have met with the DWR and had good comments from them. Everything we are proposing is in compliance with the current Elk Management Plan that the DWR is supposed to manage to. If I didn't think we could get this done I would n't be spending so much time and energy on it. We have also met with most of the conservation groups and got good feedback from them as well.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
"A WHOLE BUNCH OF SOMEBODY'S ARE GONNA HAVE TO BE HAPPY WITH PISSCUTTERS!!!"

Wow bess, you are thinkin' deep with that there coconut of yours! Ha!

I say shoot the stinkin' elk. Kill every last one of the bastards. I say it is time to grow monster Henry bucks on every inch of Utah real estate left! ;-) It is time Utah got with the program and had 75 bucks to every doe. I want to see deer dying of old age.

pro, now that you are a lock for 08, time to get something else comin' down the pipe?
 
Every year every person that hunts a LE unit goes back to zero points. Its gonna take awhile to flush the system, but its gonna get flushed and I ain't gonna lose one year!!! Ill keep buying my point each year.

Since I didn't see it on this thread - anyone else notice that this year if you draw a "management" permit you DO lose all your points.
 
proutdoors, I like those ideas A LOT. Get rifle out of rut, and issue more primitive tags, this is a win win, more guys hunting, less elk taken, rifle hunters complain when more tags are given to bowhunters but they seem to forget that means much less competition for tags for them, so they get to hunt more.

I do not live in utah but that is my 2 cents, I also think the management tags would not work as planned. I also wonder how many elk "broke" points after the shot, and how many of those points magically reattach a year or two later.......

Also if there are bulls dieing of old age seems like a few more tags would be ok.

For me, as a NR even 100 more tags will not help me draw much, 10 to NR, ater SPFW and max pnts holders that gives what, 3 more tags? Just thinking out loud.

Also this group app loophole needs to be shut, somehow. I see how it is fair to average points, there are times I wish I could in CO, and I like being able to turn a tag in and keep points in case something happens, but when guys get tags with lower point applicants, then turn their tag in and do it again the next year, that has to be stopped somehow.
 
Thanks Pro,

I was chasing 2-3 bigger bulls but could not resist when that bull came in. He was my "management" bull. As for the management hunt, I think it was never a "management" hunt in the sense of 5 point or smaller. The intent was to lower the bull to cow ratios. I have seen pictures of at least 5-6 that were legit 5 points though. I am glad they made it use points this year. That is fair across the board, aspecially if they are killing "broken" bulls??

I think it is sad how much time we put in arguing over a healthy herd of elk when our general deer herd in Utah sucks. Hopefully some good efforts can be made to help the general season deer herds sooner than later.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-07 AT 01:01PM (MST)[p]As long as I get a tag before Bessie!!!




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Just having fun with you big guy.
 
I don't mind that this thread has been somewhat highjacked. I think the discussion is good. However, I want to be clear that I am talking about NONRESIDENTS putting in for a LE elk bull tag. That is the math / odds I am talking about

Raising tags doesn't do much for nonresidents. You have to raise a unit by 10 tags to even give us 1 tag. So I don't see that helping nonresidents much if any.

That is why you don't find any badmouthing of the division of wildlife and begging for more tags in my posts. Just felt that nonresidents should really think about their odds of actually being drawn, practically nonexistent. Sucker bet, ....... don't know how many more ways you can say it, but for those with a 1 in 1000 chance that say they will eventually be drawn for sure if they stay in long enough, they are kidding themselves.

If I were a resident with 3 points, I would stay in the game for sure!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
KTC, hope you 'solve' the CSI cases.;-)

There are a few ideas rattling around in my melon on the deer 'problems', I am unaware of any 'easy' fixes though.

txhunter, sorry to been part of the hijackers. You are right NR have long odds to draw a tag EVER. Problem is, even residents are facing long odds. A 14 year kid just getting in the game could apply for 40 years for a rifle tag on an 'average' LE unit and still not be ensured a tag under the current system. NR's are SOL I am afraid, like you said for every 10 res tag you get one. But, as the saying goes, "You can't win if you don't stay in the game". Good luck to those who stay in the game, IMHO it is worth it if/when you draw a Utah LE elk tag.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
txhunter

Whatever you decide to do just make sure it's a decision you can live with in 10 years. I didn't put in back in 1999 because of my work schedule. That one point dropped me from the bonus pool and has haunted me ever since.

Even if it takes another 15 years and your into it $1,500 it's a bargain IMO.
 
I beat 1 in 3757 odds to draw a Az. elk tag with O points. 1 250 odds for a Ded. Hunter elk tag. It can be done. Dry the tears and put your app in. Or cry the tears and don't. Ut tags are hard to get because Ut. is kickin azz in the elk Dept. right now. Don't expect that to change soon.
 
You'll sure hate yourself if you drop out of the tag race and find out 5 years down the line they issue 3000 more tags, and everyone draws a good tag. Now that would really suck.

Can't play unless your in the game.
 
Antler said: "Even if it takes another 15 years and your into it $1,500 it's a bargain IMO."

My point is, if you do the math for the area I want, they give 2 tags per year, That would mean a 1 in 1000 chance this year, since I don't have max points. A 1 in 998 chance next year. 1 in 996 chance the following year, and so forth assuming everyone stayed in. For the 15 year span, if you do the math your chances would be 15 chances in 14,970 apps. That is 0.102% chance you would be drawn in 15 years. Would you put in $1500 this year for even a 0.2% chance of drawing this year (that would be a 1 in 500 chance)?

Even for the seeming bargin of 1 in 300 to start (0.3% chance), your odds of drawing in 15 years would increase to a whopping 0.336% chance.

Please someone, I would love to be proved wrong on my math!

Gator: your argument is the only one that gives me pause, because I WOULD kick myself. But I think that scenerio is pretty unlikely. However, nobody knows for sure.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Good luck to you txhunter. Have a happy new year and wherever ya hunt, may ya shoot straight and have short blood trails. We all have the priviledge to live in the greatest country on earth and 08 oughta be interesting. Whatever the odds, I'll be found outdoors as often as possible next year.
 
txhunter

Your math is fine. My point was you may regret not putting in one day. But this wisdom is comming from a guy thats been putting in 23 year with about a .1% chance for my unit of choice. I guess I'm a sucker.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-07 AT 06:32PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-07 AT 06:22?PM (MST)

Well said Bigbuckshchaser! I will be hunting for whitetail this coming weekend! In '08 I will be hunting the high country of Colorado for a muley!

Happy new year.

Antler: At $5 a year, it was worth it!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
As a nonres with 7 points I'm fine with what Utah is doing, and hope they keep the management at its current quality. I apply in several states and half of what gets me through the year is that long, long, shot I may pull a high quality tag somewhere. I have beaten long odds in Nevada for a great muley tag and a great antelope tag, why not Utah?

Can anyone tell me if the premium tags for each unit are by points or randon draw?

What I think is absolute BS is what Wyoming is doing to NR by jacking up the cost of preference points and tags. There will be people jumping out of that game. JB

Pro I sent you a PM
 
NUNYA,

What time is your head going to be in the toilet? I got $10 that says you are puking before midnight and whacking off at 1:00 am! Ha!
 
Question for Pro:

If the DNR does accept these proposals when would that be and when would they be implemented? For '08? I suspect that applicants will have to apply this year without knowing if this would come to pass?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
texhunter, it would go into effect in 2009. 2008 changes were implemented in November of 2007.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
PRO, i am close to being a local to cache unit, and have hunted it off and on most of my life, and think it is a great unit for the ideas you have, i don't think i would be one to try and take advantage of such a hunt, but hope you can build up steam for '09, as i am sure these hunt would be very popular.
 
PRO,

Are you still promoting a seperate point system for the new hunts? I support it if it falls under the current point system, but cannot support a new, seprate point system.
 
Every LE Elk tag should take points if you draw! We will never go through all of the bonus points if we keep giving tags away for free without using points. Does anyone know when the current elk management plan is up for adjustments. I remember that it was a five year deal, but I don't remember when it started.
 
Some NR info, there were about 28,000 NR applicants with 1 or more points for NR bull elk in Utah.

So we are looking at 28,000 applicants, say there are only 2,000 new applicants for 2008. Then say half drop out because of the new fees. That leaves 15,000 NR elk apps, there are about 175 NR bull elk tags. So it should take about 86 years for the CURRENT NR elk apps to draw (if 1/2 drop out and they all draw before any new apps draw) ignoring new applicants.

Lets say you have 6 points, like me, there are about 3,000 guys ahead of me, and 1300 that also have 6 points. If half drop out because of the new license purchase requirement it will take 9 years for everyone to clear out above me, assuming they draw all the tags, which they will not.

Rough stuff. Hopefully I get lucky, or live a long time!
 
If I read the draw report correctly there were a total of 6 NR's that drew a LE elk tag with 0 points last year. Yes the odds are terrible but at least it's not like Az. where you have almost no chance to draw. I put in for an OIL tag every year so I started applying for elk too this year. If you look at the draw report there are people drawing LE and OIL tags every year with just a few points. Not many but IMO it's worth a shot as long as the application prices stay reasonable. I drew a Pauns. archery buck tag with two points in 06 and my odds were pretty bad. If I can justify buying a Powerball ticket then I can darn sure feel good about the odds of drawing a premium Utah tag, right?
 
Add in the fact that thousands of 12 year olds will be added to the pool this year and your odds just went from bad to worse. I got a boy coming up on 12 years, but he don't need to be hunting 350+ bulls his 1st year out of the chute. JMO!He needs to cut his teeth on some good ole fashion general season hunts so when he does draw a tag of a life time he will appreciate it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-08 AT 04:35PM (MST)[p]The only thing a 12 year old can apply for is youth elk and general deer.
 
"If I can justify buying a Powerball ticket then I can darn sure feel good about the odds of drawing a premium Utah tag, right?"

Fade in scene from the movie Dumb and Dumber, "So your saying there a chance then!!!"

The Utah DNR will certainly thank you.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
There are good units in utah that Nonresidents can draw bow or muzzleloader tags with 2 or 3 points less than it takes for a resident to draw. And for$75 for a big game tag, thats half the price of the arizona tag I just had to buy to put in for elk. Cheaper than nevada as well.
 

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