I400 Condensed

P

proutdoors

Guest
I have received numerous requests to refresh what I400 is about. I hopefully will get most of the 'meat'of our proposal that is still in the developmental stages.

A group of concerned sportsmen got together and came up with a proposal that would allow for more mature bulls to be harvested on FIVE LE units w/o 'destroying quality'.

We propose on the following five units a few changes in season dates and weapon tag allotment percentages:

LE units included:
North Cache
Wasatch
Nebo
Fish Lake
LaSal

Season dates as follows:
Archery: September 1-21
Muzzleloader: September 26-October 4
Rifle: October 5-14

Tag allotments are currently; 60% rifle, 25% archery, 15% muzzleloader. We propose changing them to; 50% rifle, 30% archery, 20% muzzleloader.

We also propose MANDATORY reporting for ALL tag holders on these units.

We also propose the harvest age objectives for these units stay the same as now set. But, with a directive for the DWR/Wildlife Board to manage the herds TO objectives on the high end, meaning if a unit has a 4-5 year old age objective the actual harvest age average should be 'reasonably' close to 5 years of age.

We believe with these changes overall success rates will decrease, allowing for higher escapement ensuring older bulls to be in the post-hunt population keeping 'quality' high.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
>Pro the only question is what
>people are going to do
>with there bonus pts?

We are leaning toward keeping them as part of the current system. I see pros/cons to having it in a seperate draw that still requires one to use points to draw, just w/o the waiting period, in otherwords a 'true' preference point system. But, I also see the values of keeping them part of the LE draw. This is one of the issues we are still working on. We WILL have this worked out long before November, that I assure you.

PRO


Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
>Pro,
>
>Will this increase tags on the
>units? If so by how
>many?

Yes, this will result in MORE tags being issued on these units, that is the primary purpose of this proposal. How many is unknown. We are trying to get some more accurate data on bull/cow ratios on these units, as well as the 2007 data showing harvest age averages, along with overall herd numbers on these units. These factors MUST be known or closely known to determine tag numbers.

I just realized I failed to include the 'spike issue'. We propose to reduce spike tags to an every other year plan, this will allow MORE bulls to reach maturity and allow for MORE mature tags to be issued. We are looking at rotating the spike tags to prevent a major 'overload' in spike tags issued on other spike units. Sorry about that.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro,
Looks like a well thought out proposal. I like the idea. I would like to see how it works. The only concern I have is that the CURRENT bonus point system be used. I see no reason to make these hunts any diffenrent.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-08 AT 12:35PM (MST)[p]PRO,
For the people that like the idea of this, how can we/they help to see this through?
Also, on the years that the spike hunts fall on, any idea of the dates? Will they over lap any of the LE hunts?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-08 AT 11:13AM (MST)[p]>>Pro the only question is what
>>people are going to do
>>with there bonus pts?
>
>We are leaning toward keeping them
>as part of the current
>system. I see pros/cons to
>having it in a seperate
>draw

Pro,
What would be a "Con" in using the current system. This proposal would provide a lot more opportunity to more people if the curent point system is used.
 
Pro, Glad to see you have incorporated opinions from everyone on here and Ut's forum. You have a Great idea there and it's nice to see regulations change(to the better) as hunters ideas and preferences evolve over the years.

What is the mature bull to cow ratio this plan will be looking to gain on these 5 units? Will it try to keep them at current levels or raise/lower them. Thanks

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
pro,

When you say you believe overall success will decrease, I disagree. Let me tell you why.

You have the bow hunt from Sept 1 to 21st. If the bow guys have legit complaints on the current dates, then bow success has to go up? Am I correct? Also if you give 10 times the tags or whatever number, are you not going to have that number times more killed? Muzz dates will keep success the same? Right? Now rifle. I believe that you are going to have a high success rate whether Sept 5th, Oct 5th, or Nov 5th. When you have a limited hunt stuff is going to die. My biggest competitor hunting is other hunters. I can kill stuff when it is me against the animal. Weapons, all of them, are so lethal now it is crazy. Compounds at 330 fps, inlines at 200 yard accuracy, and high power rifles with the gadgets will kill out to 500 yards plus.

If your plan was prior to releases and over-draws, inlines, rangefinders, ATV's and BDC scopes I may agree. I could go along with your plan more so if you had provisions in your plan for seasonal road closures. This alone would lower harvest rates more than anything IMO. If your objective is to have a hunt at a higher level by moving dates, include other plans to offset other problems like ATV's and even the use of some equipment. This whole plan is based on the premises that rifle hunters will not kill as much? Right?

It would be crazy in my eyes to use anything but the current point system. People MUST use points to cycle people through. If this turns into a pisscutter deal, then too bad if people use their points. They have a choice as what to apply for.

This is my only post on the subject. Hopefully I did not hurt any feelings out there?

I hope I kept that clean enough so I do not start another war like on the deer forum the other day.;-)
 
blazingsaddle, we will have a meeting in Febuary, I wanted one this month but my schedule has been crazy. I'll post on here the date/place/time when it is set. Any/all are invited.

mntman, we want bull/cow ratios to be in the 30-35/100, but this will also be determined in part by harvest age averages.

ktc, in 2006 success rates for LE archery elk was 36.8% and has shown a steady DECLINE since the LE archery tags have been issued. Looking at the DWR data shows that as archery tag numbers have gone up the success rate has dropped, in fact in 2006 there were 41 MORE tags issued with FEWER bulls harvested. The success rate dropped from 45% to 36%. I believe under I400, success rates will DROP below 30%, this will be due to increased hunter pressure and lower bull/cow ratios. I believe rifle/muzzy success rates will dip as well with more hunters in the field and lower bull/cow ratios.

Regardless of "releases and 'over-draws' (which are obsolete)" 95+% of archery still need to get within 60 yards and in many instances a lot closer than that, which means archery success rates will ALWAYS be fairly low in comparision to rifles/muzzys.

As for the ATV issue, I would LOVE to see road/atv trail closures. But this is under the control of the Forest Service, NOT the DWR/WILDLIFE BOARD. Help come up with a way to close some of these trails/roads and I'll help in any way I can.

Regardless of success rates for archery/muzzy, they will ALWAYS be lower than rifle success rates, so by giving a higher percentage of the tags to the primitive weapons, OVERALL success rates MUST/WILL go DOWN.

The theory on a seperate point system is that it would REMOVE people from the LE pool. An applicantcould swap his binus points for preference points ONCE, but could NEVER swap preference points for bonus points. Once you draw a LE or I400 tag the 5 year waiting period would be enforced to apply for LE tags. Those who draw a I400 tag would eb allowed to apply the following year for a I400 tag ONLY. This would also help the LE deer draw as well, since many successful LE elk tag draw hunters then switch to LE deer.

Thanks for keeping this positive, taht is the only way we can get change that will make a difference.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro,

The main problem I have with this plan is it seems +100% archery and -100% rifle and the proposed success rate. Take 10% from rifle, give 5% more to archery, move rifle out of the rut, move archery into full rut. When there are probably 3-1 rifle vs. archery hunters out there. Just seems pretty one sided. I agree with ktc on the odds are just as many bulls are going to die on the rifle they will just be smaller. The archery odds should go way up because they are hunting during full rut. Muzz pretty much stays the same. The rifle would be like the management hunt this year. Hunters are going to go home with at least a 5x5. In a few years we will have Colorado in Utah where we just shoot 2 year old rag horns. we don't know that for sure until we see the tag numbers proposed. I would bet 90% of the guys supporting this plan are bow hunters. Rifle hunters should be pissed. Just my opinion. I also think we will never find the perfect plan.
 
I would have to agree that this proposal caters to the bow hunters big time. I don't see anyway that the success rate for the archery hunters go down with dates that go to the 21 of sept. Muzzleloaders will take the place of rifle hunters with 90% kill rates. The rifle hunters will still kill 90%. There will only be more tags issued for a couple of years and then the numbers will have to be cut back to maintain age objectives.

I think it is obvious that everyone agrees these tags need to use the current bonus point system.

Pro,
If this hunt goes through with a seperate point system, and no waiting period it is going to look pretty suspecious when you draw your LE elk tag this year and have no bonus points and are on a LE waiting period next year. Sorry just calling it the way I see it!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-08 AT 03:13PM (MST)[p]Packout, thanks for the input. We have had good discussions on this as of late. I appreciate it.

peakfreak, while I respect your views, I disagree with many of them.

For the record, MOST of those who are the 'founders' of I400 are NOT bow hunters. If we are serious about increasing opportunity w/o wiping out 'quality', the primitive weapons HAVE top be part of the 'solution'. I also belive many so-called 'rifle' hunters would switch to primitve weapons and/or apply for regular LE' rifle tags during the rut. The "full rut" means what? I would even be fine having the archery hunters stay with September 1-15 if that is what is needed to 'prove' this is NOT a "pro-archery" proposal. This perception is the SINGLE BIGGEST hurdle to creat more opportunity, that rifle hunters somehow have a birth right to the best season dates AND the bulk of the tags. No other factor reduces opportunity on hunting mature bulls than rifle hunting during the rut. PERIOD. Archers success rates have DECREASED as tag numbers have increased, so under I400 why would that trend suddenly reverse itself? Rifle success rates will ALWAYS have success rates than archery success rates, and even muzzy success rates will always be lower than rifle, regardless of season dates and the archery season could be the whole month of September, even though I am NOT suggesting it, and the success rate would STILL be lower than the rifle hunt durinig ANY time of the fall.

As long as people view this as rifle vs muzzy vs archery, change/improvements will be minimal at best. We need to look at how can opportunity be increased while having minimum negative impact on 'quality'. IMHO!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
bragabit wrote: "Pro,
If this hunt goes through with a seperate point system, and no waiting period it is going to look pretty suspecious when you draw your LE elk tag this year and have no bonus points and are on a LE waiting period next year. Sorry just calling it the way I see it!"

Two things: First, go back and reread what I said, I said if you draw a LE tag the 5 year waiting period applies for LE AND I400 tags. Second, I will be DONE with LE elk in Utah after this year. I drew AR301 twice and killed two bulls over 360, this is my ONE chance (unless I strike it rich) at a 'true trophy' bull in my view. I am willing to eat my tag if I am unable to get with bow range of a 390+ bull. I400 has NOTHING to benefit me as a hunter/guide. This is, to me, about the future generations not me. I have a 3 year old boy that I want to be able enjoy what I enjoy so much. I'll have 'mine' this year, then I'll go back to guiding other elk hunters in their quests for monster bulls/bucks. I am fine with that, but when I see the odds of my 15 year old daughter ever drawing a tag combined with what I see as herds on the verge of a crash, I am motivated to increase opportunity while keeping quality 'world class'. The Wildlife Board is adamant about increasing opportunity, their idea is statewide spike hunting, I believe I400 is a far better plan, and I haven't seen/heard of any other 'plan' that are feasible that is better than I400.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro, I like the idea. It will make a difference. I put in for elk hunts in 6 states. In New Mexico, the rifle success for this time frame is about 50%. If we have 50% success with rifle and muzzle loader and 30-35% with archery. Have no rifle rut hunts so more big bulls will survive. More opportunity. Regulate age with harvest data/ bull to cow ratios. Rotate spike hunting on units. All sounds good to me. Lets give it a chance imo. Thanks for your work and interest.
 
Pro,
I don't have a major problem with the "proposal" itself. Infact I would like to see it. Lets give it a chance and see what happens. My MAJOR problem would be if the CURRENT bonus point system is not used. The best way for your 3 year old boy to hunt would be to "flip the points as fast as possible. If it only takes 5 points to draw this hunt then so be it. more opportunity for those who wanted it. If there is not enough apps. in a couple of years with guys on waiting period, then return it back to the way it is now. We would then know what the majority of people want. If there is such an outcry for more opportunity there should not be problem selling these tags. Again could you give me a "con" for using the current bonus point system?
 
OK I will post one more time!

I am trying not to view it as rifle vs bow. I think peak said it best. You have a high demand for rifle tags plain and simple. Would I apply for these tags as a rifle hunter? No way. I have no desire to just kill elk any more.

Sorry about the over-draw. That was where I left off. Ha! You are saying 60 yards and in a perfect world it would be. However, people are killing stuff at 60-100 yards just like people are lobbing rifle slugs 500+ yards. We have seen that on several occasions here on MM. This is part of the lethal weapon theory I have. If you practice with a bow/rifle at 100/700 yards, then range it, you are going to probably kill it. Agreed?

A good archer with shooting skills, physically fit, and calling skills is going to far surpass 40% success. The weekenders will not have the luck or those applying for archery for draw odds reasons. My friends who are good archers kill more than I do with a rifle when it comes to elk. A weekender rifle guy will probably kill something though.

I do not have an answer to the ATV issue. This one sucks for everyone IMO. I watched my friends muzz hunt get ruined by them. He won't use that as an excuse, but I will.

I just have a hard time seeing a bunch of tags given and success going way down with date changes. Maybe I am wrong? I do know that points got to be used. Anything less would be a bad deal in my eyes.

I hope you can do some good with this, and I admire your efforts, but I have doubts.

Now how do I get a Henry rifle deer tag? That is the million dollar question.
 
Pro,
I don't mean to hijack your post. I would like to hear your opinion on the following proposal? Do you think this would even have a chance of being implementd? I hate to change the "game" to much when people have 10 years plus invested

>The "Utah Elk Debate" has got
>me thinking of possible ways
>to add opportuntity and YES
>the experience for more hunters.
> Here is something that
>I have been thinking of.
> I would like to
>hear your opinions on these
>changes. Lets use this
>years dates to make it
>easier. Hopefully I can
>get my thoughts accross.
>
>This years archery dates:
>General Season Deer: Aug 16-Sept.12
>LE Archery Elk: Aug 16-Sept.12
>Proposed change:
>General season Deer: Aug 16-Sept.12
>LE Archery Elk Aug 16-Sept.14
>Pro: The "arguably" best two
>days of the season, the
>elk hunters would not have
>the general season deer hunter
>to contend with.
>
>Rifle dates this year:
>Sept. 13-23
>Proposed:
>Sept.15-21
>Reason: Looking at the 2006
>harvest stats. on the early
>rifle elk hunt the average
>number of days hunted was
>between 4 and 5.
>The last six to seven
>days of the rifle hunt
>are not being used by
>very many hunters.
>
>Muzzleloader dates this year:
>General Season Deer
>Sept.24-Oct2
>LE Muzzleloader Elk
>Sept24-oct2
>Proposed:
>General season Muzzleloader Deer
>Sept.24-Oct.2
>LE Muzzleloadr Elk
>Sept.22-Oct2
>Reason: The "arguably" best two
>days of the muzzleloader hunt.
> The Elk hunters would
>not be competing with the
>general season deer hunters
>
>So in summary the rifle hunt
>would be cut to 7
>days from 11 giving the
>bow and muzzy hunters each
>two more days in the
>rut and without general deer
>season pressure. The rifle
>hunt as is is 11
>days and the average days
>hunted is betwwen 4 and
>5 for almost all units.
>
>The downfall I see is that
>the rifle hunt would start
>on a Monday and not
>have a full weekend to
>hunt.
>
>The two days without general
>season deer hunting pressure would
>increase the overall "experience" greatly
>for the archery, and muzzy
>hunters.
>It is real sad to see
>that Utahs premier archery hunts
>had this kind of success
>in 2006:
>Pahvant-------33
>Beaver--------13
>SW Desert-----54
>San Juan------29
>
>If shortening the rifle hunt dropped
>the success by 10 percent
>then you could add 10
>percent tags and increase opportunity.
>
>
>This is just an idea I
>have been thinking about, not
>trying to push it on
>anyone.
>
>What do you guys think?
 
By the way. I probably will not put in for these hunts. I believe a lot of people will be interested. Just as alot of people are interested in late rifle hunts with lower success rates.
 
like pro said in the past, it's a once in a lifetime hunt the way it is now. Let's clear out some of the mid pt guys with primitive weapons. Is a guy going to use his once in a lifetime tag on archery gear? Not many do, they want a slam dunk rifle tag.
 
I knew you couldn't/wouldn't stay away ktc.

On your friends hunt taht was messed up by atv's, they were in 'closed' areas to begin with, so I am confused how MORE closures on that unit would have helped. I am on the OHV committee where we are looking at ways to help stop this kind of crap. I have asked fo rsuggestions from folks here on what can/should be done, with very few responses to date.

I practice weekly at 120 yards, yet I will NEVER shot at a bull at that range, NEVER. I shoot competitive to increase my accuracy in the field, not to enable myself to attempt a kill at 100+ yards, if I want to take a shot at that distance I'll put down my bow and go with a muzzy/rifle. I was only giving you a little grief on the over-draw.

I would not be in favor of a draw system that does not require points, that is a given. Like I said in the first post, we are leaning toward keeping them in the LE bonus point pool.

Good points by many, this is what is needed to improve/fine tune this proposal.

ktc, you'll draw your Henries tag sooner of you bite the 'bullet' and pick up a bow.;-)

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
bragabit, the main problem I have with your plan is the rifle hunts in the middle of the rut. As long as rifle hunts take place then, the opportunity is seriously LIMITED, and IMHO needlessly so. I also am NOT in favor of this being implemented on all 29 LE units. Good ideas, and something to look at more.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Like I said I would like to see this implemented to see how it plays out. I did the math real quick and there are 834 people who have applied for 10 plus years for these unit. I'll bet not one of them would be happy with this proposal. Just a thought.
 
Based on the responses here to my/your proposals, do you think there is such a proposal out there that will be appeasing to EVERY elk hunter? I sure don't, so that is why we are looking at only 5 units rather than all 29. Any/all proposals with tick off a certain percentage of hunters, thatis a given. The trick is finding one that has a fairly low number of ticked off hunters that is based on sound biology AND solid hunter appeal. If we base proposing something on having ticked off folks, nothing can EVER be proposed, which in turn would tick off a good percentage of hunters by doing NOTHING. I am open to suggestions that minimize the number of 'displaced' hunters.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro,
Thank you for looking out for our kids. I have 2 boys who would like a reasonable chance at hunting a mature Bull in Utah. Today it hard to see how that could happen.

I think this plan is solid. It seems to create more opportunity, and should keep the quality in place.

Thanks for working so hard on it.
 
I SAY!!!

LET THEM HAVE THERE FRICKEN SEPTEMBER BOW "RUT SHOOT"!!!

IT'LL BE LIKE SHOOTING FISH IN A BARRELL!!!

LETS PLAY FAIR THOUGH!!!

RECURVE BOWS ONLY!!!

MOCCASINS!!!

PEACE PIPES!!!

AUTHENTIC ARROWHEADS!!!

TEE-PEE'S!!!

HAND WHITTLED ARROWS!!!

IF YOU'RE GONNA MAKE IT A " RUT SHOOT" THEN YOU'RE GONNA PLAY FAIR & GIVE THE ANIMALS A CHANCE!!!

I WOULD OF NEVER MENTIONED THIS BUT A YEAR OR SO AGO I GOT THRASHED FOR WANTING TO KEEP THE LE UNITS AS IS!!!

EVERY PERSON BITTCHING & MOANING ABOUT THE LE ANY WEAPONS HUNTS SEEMED TO BE A STICK FLIPPER!!!

WHY DIDN'T YOU DRAW THE ANY WEAPON HUNT & HUNT WITH YOUR FEATHER FLIPPERS & IGNORE THE RIFLE SHOTS & BE GLAD YOU WERE HUNTING BIG STINKYS RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RUT???

THERE AIN'T NO FRICKEN LAW ANYWHERE THAT SAID YOU COULDN'T DO JUST THAT!!!

I'M NOT ENTIRELY AGAINST YOUR PROPOSAL Pro!!!

BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE STICK FLIPPERS WANT TO HUNT RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RUT & THE RIFLE HUNTERS HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT JUST AIN'T RIGHT!!!

SO ITS RIGHT FOR FEATHER FLIPPERS TO HUNT THEM IN THE RUT???

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Bess, we have gone the rounds on this plenty. I'll just ask you two questions. What are the archery elk season dates for EVERY state around Utah, and what other state gives out the bulk of the tags to rifle hunters in the middle of September? Just curious what makes Utah so 'different'.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
MUST BE SOMETHING DIFFERENT Pro???

ARCHERY HUNTERS TAKE AMAZING BULLS IN LE UNITS!!!

RIFLE HUNTERS TAKE AMAZING BULLS IN LE UNITS!!!

MUZZ HUNTERS TAKE AMAZING BULLS IN LE UNITS!!!

I GUESS SOME SEE A NEED FOR CHANGE???

I GET AROUND A LITTLE BIT!!!

THE ARCHERY BOYS HAVE BEEN IN ON THE START/MIDDLE OF THE RUT & THE ANY WEAPON BOYS HAVE BEEN HITTING MIDDLE/END OF THE RUT ON AVERAGE!!!

YA,WEATHER EFFECTS IT!!!

NOBODY CAN OUT GUESS WEATHER!!!

IN AN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION!!!

I DON'T GIVE A RATS ASS WHEN COLORADO STARTS THEIR "BUY EM OVER THE COUNTER BY THE MILLIONS UNLIMITED PISSCUTTIN TAGS"!!!

THINK ABOUT IT Pro!!!

THEY AIN'T "JUST RIFLE TAGS"!!!

THEY ARE ANY WEAPON HUNTS!!!

USE YOUR FLIPPER!!!

USE YOUR PISTOL!!!

USE YOUR MUZZ!!!

USE YOUR BOW IF YOU WANT!!!

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS???



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Keep the draw inside of the current draw system and I like the proposal. Here is why:

1- We don't need two systems to clear a few people out. The hunters will make their choice and might switch back and forth. More will still move through the system. Why eliminate choices.

2- If this fails, it will be just like AR 301 those that draw benefit, but those that don't, get nothing when we fall back into the orginal system.

3- Young hunters don't know what they want. With a new draw system they are committed to either the preference or bonus point system. You are forcing young hunters to decide what type of hunter they will be in 4 to 5 years. Think about when you were 14 did you know what you wanted to be doing when you were 19 or 20.

4- People are forced to move because of work. If you live in a bonus draw unit and are forced to move to a preference draw area, your priorities might change. Why eliminate choices.

5- If you open the point shuffle idea, it could extend to other species. The whole idea of a bonus points system is to allow those people who wait their turn a geater chance at a specific tag. A point shuffle that extends to other species completely eliminates the need for points at all. It would eliminate the ability to plan that comes with the bonus system. Don't open the door.

The hunters will self regulate just like they have done on deer. Those that want a true buck of a lifetime wait it out on the Henry's. Those that are comfortable with a slightly lesser buck and the possibility of going hunting a couple of times choose other units. The hunters will self regulate with their choices, the odds and quality will self regulate. We don't need a system to do it for us.

I like the proposal, I know many won't, but don't create a new draw. Put the management idea into the current draw system and you accomplish the same objective. A new draw over complicates the proposal.
 
>So what about the spike hunts
>on these units?

Removed. Its the spikes growing up into branch antlered bulls that is the thought behind this.
 
Any proposal outside of the current bonus point system is highly suspicous. There is absolute no justification for another system--its absurd. I like how the authors blow smoke by saying this detail will be worked out later (like 5 minutes before it gets passed by the RAC). This is why UT can't write a stable proclamation like every other state in the country. What a joke.
 
Excellent post 3toes, you convinced me. I'll pass on your very valid points at our next meeting.

Bessy, I am NOT talk ing just about Colorado, how about New Mexico, Arizona, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Nevada? I see the thread on the New Mexico Governors tag bull, and I see LOTS of great bulls coming out of Arizona. Both of this states give out WAY more tags per 100 bulls than Utah currently does. Again, what makes Utah so 'unique'?

gundog my friend, when I say it will be worked out "later", I mean just that, it will be worked out later, but long BEFORE we propose it at the RAC's. I have been VERY clear we are still working out a few issues. The RAC's aren't until November, that gives us TEN MONTHS to get this issue and a few others nailed down. No blowing smoke, if I wanted that I wouldn't even post this here, I would simply 'sneak' this in under the radar.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-08 AT 07:17PM (MST)[p]>Any proposal outside of the current
>bonus point system is highly
>suspicous. There is absolute no
>justification for another system--its absurd.
>I like how the authors
>blow smoke by saying this detail will be worked out later (like 5 minutes before it gets passed by the RAC).


Right on Gundog!

We made this mastake with the AR301 and management hunt last year lets please not do it again.

Pro I will ask you again, What would be the "con" part about using the current bonus point system.

No proposal is perfect for everyone. Never will be. Why don't we actually use the management plan we have now that is producing so many world class bulls and manage to the actual age objective. That would increase opportunity quite a bit.
 
I would like to see the actual number of tags you are proposing on each unit for each weapon, including spike only tags if there are any in the proposal.
 
>Pro I will ask you again,
>What would be the "con"
>part about using the current
>bonus point system.
>
>No proposal is perfect for everyone.
> Never will be.
>Why don't we actually use
>the management plan we have
>now that is producing so
>many world class bulls and
>manage to the actual age
>objective. That would increase
>opportunity quite a bit.

One "con" is the desire of this to increase ones chances of drawing more than once/twice in a lifetime. When you have a 5 year waiting period that make sit nearly impossible to draw more than twice. With a preference point system, the waiting period is dictated by the num,ber of applicants applying for that specific unit/tag. But, as I stated in my last post, 3toes made some great points and has pulled me over to keeping this as part of the bonus point pool.

I would love to see the "current management plan" followed, but everytime the DWR attempts to do so, the "anti-pisscutters" scream and rant, so the Wildlife Board IGNORES the EMP. I believe I400 conforms 100% into the EMP and is much more likely to be implemented and FOLLOWED because it is on a smaller scale, since it is only 5 out of 29 LE units.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
WTF???

YOU WANT TO DESTROY DUTTON TOO???

THE "ANTI-PISSCUTTERS" HUH???

WHATEVER!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
proutdoors, Those that are in a waiting period need to wait--thats the point. You can't avoid the basic problem that there are way more hunters than hunts, unless you increase the number of hunts (has nothing to do with allocation system). I agree with your assertion that there are ways to increase the number of LE hunts--especially if we stop shooting all the spikes. I just do not see any reason to change the allocation system. I like to see more opportunity to hunt mature bucks and bulls, but they don't all have to be booners.

There are a number of archery, muzl, and late season hunts you can already draw with 3-5 points. The Diamond Mtn early rifle isn't all that hard to draw. That puts you in the field every 8-10 years. That should be four to six good hunts in a lifetime (maybe not mine, but perhaps my son)--under the existing system. Moreover, most people have family or close friends that they can also hunt with. Certainly the system could be tweeked a bit--but no need to make the system any more complicated than it already is. In my opinion all elk tags should be given out in the same draw system--that would fix alot of problems and people could be hunting every 5-10 years depending on choice of unit.
 
I don't want to destroy any units.I think it's fine the way it is. I just want Pouts to be willing to throw in his beloved Dutton unit in with the other sucker units if he thinks this i400 thing is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
 
Give it a try, but my vote would be to leave the current point system in place. If the results don't achieve the goals in 3-4 years then go back to LE on those units.

I have mid range points and would apply for it.
 
pro,

I don't expect to change your ideas or views one bit. You are smarter than everybody here and you know it. My message is for the average guy/rifle hunter. I think there should be some better ways for opportunity. However, I don't think it should be all archery opportunity because they have a track record for lower success rates. How many of them passed on 350 bulls in search of the big one? How many of them arrowed a bull and never found it? Happens alot more than you think. So say 10 tags were given and 5 filled. How many bulls actually died because of an arrow? Close to ten.IMO

Your plan hurts all rifle hunters. Who in their right mind would put in for I400 to hunt busted bulls in October after the muzz have been chasing? I'll tell you, people with less than 8 points. So what does that do to the other 24 units? All the guys with 8 + points that would have put in for the I400 units(left the way they were) put in for the other 24 LE units to hunt bulls in the rut and drives those odds up for those rifle hunters. Thank you very much. In the mean time more archers put in for the I400 because of the dates/opportunity and it lowers the odds on the other 24 units. It's a win win for the archers and a lose lose for the rifle. You say they are only five units(I400) ,but they carry the most tag numbers.

It's funny that you are an archer and this plan is totally pro archery.

I like what you are doing for opportunity, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

How can you move the rifle to the back of the line and then take 20% of their tags and feel good about it? More rifle tags and less archery makes sense to me. Esspecially when there are alot more rifle hunters. Telling or forcing them to change weapons isn't the answer either.

If you can't figure out what full rut means then you're not as smart as I thought you were. Which is pretty dang smart.IMO
 
I agree with shotgun. Pro, if I400 is so wonderful why didn't you include Dutton? I am assuming it is because that is where you guide and you don't want it to affect your hunts. It's okay and easy to displace others and pass it off as more opportunity isn't it. It just doesn't sound good when you propose changes for other areas but aren't willing to make changes to your own. Kinda like a NIMBY situation isn't it? Sounds like the same old political bulls**t that we can't get away from. Expecting others to change, but ensuring that your own status remains the same with no chamge.

I think that 5 Wal Marts should open in Stanbury Park. Imagine all of the tax revenue generated from these 5 stores. It would be great for the entire state to have 5 more Wal Mart Stores. Yes, the people in Stanbury Park might not like it but it won't affect ME negatively so I'm all for it.

I think that spike hunting should be allowed on ALL non I400 units. This would help reduce the bull to cow ratios and would also spread out the displaced spike hunters from I400 units.
 
I think what bugs me deep down, is the AR301 thing that will kind of fall into the I400 place.

Take Dutton for example. This unit is GREAT right now. 6 or 7 years ago it was average at best. Probably less than average. Once AR301 went away quality increased. Archers had a definite impact on quality. If you bow hunted the 300 bow tags or whatever it was was a great deal especially for no points. I always felt AR301 was a big time rip to anyone who did not bow hunt. The bow hunters liked it and I do not blame them one bit.

This is not anti-archery, it is just the facts. All units that were AR301 increased in quality after it went away. I think this observation is proof positive that archers DO impact quality. I still maintain the above average archers (which I am not) will have high success and kill lots of bulls.

Just some more thoughts before people buy into this or decide it is for them.
 
Pro I like the idea with your 5 units. I especially like limiting spike hunters on these areas. Wish we could eliminate them on these units all together. Only because I don't know what the thrill is about hunting spikes. I would rather give more tags and hunt a little older bull.

I also think we need to keep the bonus point system the way it is, as well as waiting period. I believe we need to get people out of the way that have drawn a tag and give the less fortunate a chance to hunt.

I don't like the way the tags are given out to the old or the young either. I would rather see all tags coming out of the same pool equal chance for everyone.

I think the single biggest problem with the current system is:
The guys putting in with their mothers, brothers, non hunting wives, ect.

"Example of what is going on."

Say you have been putting in for points only for your wife, brother, or both. It takes you 10 years to draw the henneries tag. Your wife and your brother now have 10 points each. Your brother had been putting in for deer and your wife had been putting in for elk. You partner up with your wife while you are on your waiting period for deer and split your wife?s points you know just screwed everyone that was ahead of you. You will have 5 points and your wife will have 5 points I guarantee you will draw the tag in 5 years. Your wife turns in her tag or just doesn't use it. Or worse you use it and say she killed it. Utard party hunting at its best. Now you are on your waiting period for elk. You switch to your brothers tag which now has 15 or more points and split the points again. The cycle could go on and on.

I know this is going on and it is a load of crap. Fix this and everybody?s odds are a lot more equal!


Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-08 AT 07:18AM (MST)[p]6 months ago I would have gladly returned the insults some are aiming at me. Today I'll just let the comments go. peakfreak, not sure where your hostility toward me comes from.

ktc, I have to correct you on the AR301 tag if I may. I drew that tag in 2000 and in 2003. I killed a BIGGER bull and saw MORE big bulls in 2003 than in 2000. Also, in 2004, the first year after AR301 and hardly enough time for quality to 'improve', Dutton had it's first 400+ bulls taken on it. I guided one to what is still the highest netting typical for that unit in 2004. Funny, in 2007 ZERO 400+ bulls were taken that I am aware of, even though they are there. Every unit, or nearly every unit, even those that never had AR301 tags issued on them, have bigger bulls and more of them than in 2003. To give all the credit to AR301 is not accurate.

Dutton is not part of the 5 pilot units because we only looked at spike only units, since we believe one of the big limiting factors for more mature bull tags, is the harvesting of TWO spikes for every ONE mature bull, some units in 2006 had SIX spikes for every ONE mature bull harvested. Dutton does NOT issue spike tags. I grew up on the Manti unit, and when atv's took over, I found new hunting grounds, if I felt the need to do so, I could/would do it again.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Bart,
Sorry if I offended you that was not my purpose. You know I am pro pro 95% of the time. I really do appreciate your efforts on more opportunity. It is something that is needed. From reading your posts this last year I do respect you and know you are pretty dang bright ,but you have been known to be a little cocky too, thus the comments(sorry). For the most part we are on the same page with the I400/more opportunity. I don't know everything ,but it just seems very pro archery and not good at all for the rifle. My beef is with I400 not you. I think you see my point and it is legit. No Utard here. Now use your great brain and fix it for all us fat and lazy road huntin rifle hunters.

Cody
 
ktc,

Sorry but your arguement is invalid. Here is why. All units have increaseed in quality, many more so than AR301 units. The increase in quality could much more be contributed to the 6-7 years than the demise of AR301.
 
Reality is simply this. At some point everyone who feels slighted because one method (bowhunting) is getting a bigger piece of the pie needs to ask themselves this. How can we provide opportunity and increase quality and still hunt. This is what our herds are going to be faced with to control ratios.
Arizona picks archery to keep quality.
All other states choose opportunity over quality.
So for everyone who does not want the opportunity option what is your answer.
ktc maybe you and bobcat (and all the other naysayers) can come up and propose a plan. You seem to know that everyone elses won't work, I take this to mean you have one that will.
We know the WB and DWR's answer is to look at spike units for all LE units and it seems to be working where it is already implemented so it wil be a hard arguement to beat.
FTR I am a member of several bowhunting organizations, I strongly support and enjoy bowhunting. However, I am a hunter/sportsman first and look at all wildlife issues as such. Whether you like it or not an increase of opprtunity while maintaing quality only comes in one vehicle BOWHUNTING. So if you are a died in the wool rifle hunter you better gain an understanding that fighting bowhunting is going to result in the worse of two evils when it comes to a strategy to increase opportunity and keep quality. Maybe bowhunting is not so bad.
As for me I will apply for any weapon LE hunt and spend first few days with my bow, after that I will quit hunting pick up my .338 and start shooting if needs be.
 
I have been sitting back reading for quite a while and have a question. For the pro rifle guys. How else do you give more opportunity than by moving the rifle hunt out of the rut and move a hunt in that has a lower success rate? You guys keep harping on the rifle guys getting the shaft. The Muzzleloader and Archery guys have been getting the shaft for years. You still have the best time on 24 out of 29 units including the best units. I guess none of you have young kids or don't really care if they ever get to hunt. Pro ask for ideas, so give him some ideas. It's easy to just B&M about someone else?s idea.

Pro have you thought about just limiting the amount of spike tags on these units instead of alternating the years they can be hunted? If you have what were the pros and cons.
 
Good comments 3 toes. If you keep it simple and the same system, It will have a better chance to pass RAC's and wildlife board.

Peak, the idea is to have no rifle rut tags, to provide more opportunity and less harvest. Let people hunt. This will work. It has been proven in other states. Only proposed on 5 units. It's something to try to make the system better for everyone. Utah can be very proud of their world class quality. However, hunting mature bulls should'nt be a 1-2x a lifetime opportunity imo. Thanks to everyone for being civil and good discussion.
 
Look, I am not in the mood to argue, rather discuss. I am not against bowhunting in any way shape or form. From someone on the outside looking in, it appeared to me that AR301 had a negative impact. My reasoning is 300 tags or so, given to hunt a small handful of units.

I did hear those stories of guys drawing because of draw odds and wounding elk. Yes, this is a small amount of people, but I guess that sat with me. I also watched people go year after year and spend no points. This was not fair to the whole elk hunting population.

I am not sure why you are asking me to come up with a proposal? I would leave it alone. I am not saying pro's plan is complete garbage, what I am doing, is looking and discussing things of concern to me. It is up to those with elk points to accept or reject the plan.
 
taxi,

You ask if we have kids or do not care? If that is what this is about you are sorely mistaken. My daughter just applied for her first time. She went early rifle. She does not have the arm strength to pull a bow back nor does she want to bow hunt at this time. That is option#1

Option #2 is we have discussed the spike only areas. This will boil down to if she wants/can go. I told her it is up to her and her school schedule. This is a 100% guaranteed chance to go.

Option #3 is getting a cow tag from her uncle. This is almost 100% chance to go also.

She has 3 options to hunt elk. 2 of these choices are guaranteed to hunt this year. She understands at a very young age that she cannot hunt trophy elk every year or even every 5 years. She can hunt elk every year though. So to answer your question, I have a young daughter and I do care. She WILL be hunting elk in 2008. That is some great opportunity to be 100% guaranteed to hunt elk in Utah in 2008. How does that compare to Nevada, Wyoming, Arizona, and New Mexico?
 
huntin100,

Im not against taking it out of the rut. I understand that concept 100%. I'm not falling for giving more tags to archery on behalf of the rifle when there are way more rifle hunters. I'm also not going to make rifle hunters feel like they are less of a hunter because they love their rifle. How many old guys, my dad, are going to become a rookie bowhunter at age 60? They still want to hunt too. I know there is no perfect answer and I am willing to accept that also. I might be wrong but that's how I feel about it.
 
Yes she has a the ability to hunt elk in utah. I also understand and agree that she cannot hunt trophy elk at a young age. The problem I see is that I have 3 young daughters 1,3,5. the way the system now stands 1 of them might draw a good elk tag on one of the better units in utah in their life time. Why not give it a try on these 5 units.
 
taxi,

Maybe I400 is all good? I am just talking about concerns I have. Maybe I should just say have at it? I think any time you have ideas for change, if you just say here it is, you are headed for disaster. I am not sure why when people ask for input, if it is not all about agreeing, you are a naysayer or fat lazy road killer without kids?

Maybe pro is onto something? Maybe this is a huge flop? I don't know?
 
ktc,

Sorry, I am not in the mood to argue either. No malice intended.

I here you, staying with status quo is also an option and I am sure many of the sportsman are happy with it. Unfortunately herd dynamics are beginning to force the DWR's hand in order to balance ratios and sustain long term viability.

Thanks for your summary of your daughter, I believe when we are "discussing" this is exactly the ideas that need to be considered when working "budwieser biology".
 
Peak, I understand where your coming from. My dad is 67. He has 12 points. He wont be bow hunting. 70% of tags are rifle and muzzle loader. That is the option. 30% archery. All will have waiting periods. All will burn points. It's worth tring this and see what happens. Killing more spikes is not the answer.
 
>bragabit, the main problem I have
>with your plan is the
>rifle hunts in the middle
>of the rut. As long
>as rifle hunts take place
>then, the opportunity is seriously
>LIMITED, and IMHO needlessly so.

Pro,
I think you can cry all you want about the rifle hunt in the rut. I don't see it changing atleast on the premium units anytime soon. The state of Utah, SFW,MDF, and all the elite guides have too much money at stake to change it. So lets try to work around it .
 
MP,

No problem. Ratios is a concern and something I noticed on our hunts. Is it a big problem? Possibly? What to do exactly? Not sure?

I guess what it all boils down to in the end for me is, seeing the pictures you posted of your daughter. To me, that is very cool. I don't care if she was on Pahvant or Diamond Mountain, that is a great bull.
 
I guess i am in the minority with bobcat and ktc, but this is the best idea i have herd of to increase tags. the thing that worry's me is the guys that are already applying in these units with 7 points and above going for these proposed unit's for 2 years or so, then out comes some bad publicity on qulity, then they all jump in to the other draws and the traffic jam becomes worse than ever, look at the state of colorado, exactly what happened over there, i'll be 30 plus years too draw a tag in one of the better unit's over there. but i guess their is only one way to find out! nice to see it has been kept to discussion rather than an argument!
 
Being a rifle & archery hunter, also soon to be ML I understand the increase in primitive weapons.
1. obviously the lower the success rates, equals more tags issued.
2. Yes there are still more rifle hunters than primitive but not like it was 35 years ago, there were very, very few archery hunters, they were virtually non-existent. Currently though there are more and more archery guys, plus the ML's are starting to boom now, which is all good. But to be fair as people pick up the primitive weapons the percentage of tags need to be raised also.
For those of you who feel this is a bow vs. rifle thing, you can't honestly say that 50% of the hunters(primitive) only deserve 15% of the tags? (not sure on the exact %'s just an example)

I also believe that more people than currently would pick up ML's and bow's if there was better drawing success rates.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
I just wanted to see if I'm looking at the bull harvest philosophy correctly.

This proposal could be strucured so that if a herd was having 1000 bulls taken off it now with a ratio of 70% spikes and 30% bulls. I would assume to harvest those 300 bulls you would give about 350 LE bull tags under the current system. If you adjusted seasons, which might decrease success you could offer say 400 tags and still kill only 300 bulls. If you over a few years decreased the spike harvest by say 50%, an aditional 350 bulls per year would continue in the population. If only half of those bulls survived the next couple of years thats 175 additional LE bulls that could be harvested. To take these additional elk you might offer 225 tags Using the same ratios in this very simplified example the LE elk tags on the unit would have gone from 350 to 625, but the total elk taken would remain reatively level at close to 1000. The LE harvest would increase because the ratio of spike to any bull would move to about even because more of the bulls are being killed as 4 or 5 year olds rather then spikes.

This is very simplified but is that along the thinking lines of the proposal designers.
 
Mulepacker-
Great post- I can't say it any better. Archery is a great management tool. Like it or not, Bow hunter or not. I can't understand why this has to viewed as a verses match? The goal is to improve things across the board for all hunters and the future of hunting.
This proposal helps in a couple ways as I see it.
1- Gives those who choose, more chances at mature bulls. Without affecting overall quality. You have to admit that having a once/twice ,if your lucky, chance in your life to hunt a mature trophy elk, BLOWS! I love that we have them, they keep me motivated, hungry to work harder, and fill my dreams. And we should work to keep them. But the average man has to wait an average of 10 years and then wait 5 more to start again. Look at the charts people, how many points did it take to draw the best tag in the state 5-6 years ago? How many does it take to draw the best tag in the state now? Its an up hill battle, folks! I feel for the people at ground level. I feel for the non-res. I feel for my future kids at this rate. A lot can happen in just 10 years.

2-Keeps the elk population healthy. Levels out the bull/cow ratios. Slowly!

3-With the mandatory harvest reporting- better information-the better you can manage. BOTTOM LINE

Side note---By changing the dates of the rifle hunt, you might loose 20% of the success rate (which equals more tags) OK ,worst case you loose 30% on the harvest rate. So now your rates are sitting at 65-70% success! What hunter can argue with hose kinds of odds? I'll take 70% odds on most anything in life. Especially on a hunt!
 
If my previous thinking is correct, and the unit is at a 5/6 harvest objective now, an additional say 125 bulls would have to be harvested to bring the unit into a 4/5 harvest objective with in a couple of years. That could mean 175 tags. Were now at 800 LE tags.

To harvest the original 700 spikes would have taken somewhere around 2000 spike tags. To cut it in half would require a reduction of 1000 spike tags. So we have lost 1000 spike takes, but with the latest 175 tags we have increased any bull tags by nearly 500. 500 of the lost spike tags would be now any bulls.

So by giving up 25% of the spike hunting opportunity. You could theoretically increase LE tags by 100 %. And only increase total harvest by somewhere around 15%.

I know this is very simplified but are these the objectives you are looking for in this proposal
 
3Toes, I like the way you think. My math says we kill twice as many spikes as mature bulls on EVERY LE spike only unit, with one of the 5 pilot units having had 6 times as many spikes killed as mature bulls in 2006. This tells me, if you don't kill the bulls when they are yearlings, you can kill double/triple the number of mature bulls. And, since escapement rates will increase due to higher percentage of tags issued to primitive weapons, the quality will still be there. North Cache is a perfect example of why/how I400 WILL be successful. This unit has one of the lower harvest age averages in Utah, has one of the lowest hunter success rates in the state, has OTC tags right across the border in Idaho, and yet has produced MORE 400 class bulls than the vaunted Monroe unit. I do NOT believe most of our elk units should be managed for 80% overall success rates, that LIMITS opportunity and LIMITS the 'resource' because of unusually high bull/cow ratios which LIMITS the number of cows on the unit. Bulls may be what we as hunters desire to hunt, but it is the COWS that are the lifeblood of the elk herds, not the bulls. Elk herds in Utah would thrive and grow quickly with 10/100 bull/cow ratios. That is not what I want to see, but the point is, having 60+/100 ratios is too far the other way. The EMP calls for 20+/100. I would like to see 30-40/100 on most units, with the 'premium' units in the 50-55/100 ratio range.

As long as people view this as archery vs rifle, little/nothing will get done. That means we should get used to hunting SPIKES! Because, without any other viable options for the Wildlife Board to consider, that is what WILL be implemented in 2009. How exciting.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro, I don't have a problem with your effort and passion, you should be commended for both. But, there are a few things I don't like about I400. You say that with I400 that tag numbers will increase for all weapons. Okay, by what percentage will these numbers increase? I know that you have to have an idea.

My main concern is the fact that this proposal is somewhat a bow versus rifle situation. I know that you and some others don't think that it is, but I and a few others do. With your propasal, an archer will be able to hunt Wasatch 3 or 4 times in their lifetime. Whereas a rifle hunter will only hunt Wasatch 1 or 2 times in their lifetime. I understand that your proposal will increase opportuinty for everyone, but it seems to create more for the archers. When you figure in the number of archers compaired to the number of rifle hunters, and then add in bonus points for all of these hunters; I have a very hard time believing that you will be able to increase opportunity much at all for rifle hunters. I do however see a huge increase in opportunity for archers to draw tags on these pilot units.

Someone earlier mentioned that archers and muzzy hunters have been getting the shaft on hunt dates. I couldn't disagree more on this statement. I would rather hunt elk during the time of the muzzleloader hunt than the rifle. Now, the archers may get shafted a bit on the season dates, but they still get to hunt the pre-rut and the first few days of the peak rut.

I actually don't mind the fact that you propose moving the bow hunt more into the rut. I think that this should happen on a revolving basis on all units. Each weapon choice should get the chance to hunt the peak of the rut with their weapon of choice. But you do know what bobcat says, "You can still hunt with a bow or muzzleloader during the any weapon hunt".

You have probably noticed that most of your opposition is coming from rifle hunters. Why? Because you have to admit that this proposal will benefit archers MORE than rifle hunters. I know that this is only on 5 units (for now), but what is the next step statewide? That's usually what happens once someone gets their foot in the door.

And lastly, I want to keep this discussion as positive as possible. So, I need to apologize for my smarta** comments directed at you earlier. I am also very passionate about elk hunting and sometimes I go a little ever board.
 
rutnelk, thanks for the good/positive comments.

Let me ask you a question now, how do we increase opportunity in any measurable way(s) w/o lowering quality if the bulk of the tags are issued to rifle hunters during the rut where the AVERAGE harvest rate for the last 4 years is 89%? It can NOT be done. If rifle hunters truly want to see more opportunity, they must be part of the solution. I still say if the archery/muzzy seasons become more attractive and "easier" to draw, then higher percentages of hunters will switch over to those weapon types. Look at deer hunters, every year MORE hunters switch to archery because they can get a tag for the region they want EVERY year. 4 years ago, the archery deer qouta wasn't met, since then they have met the quota and sold out earlier each year, I predict it will sell out even earlier this year. I know of MANY 'archers' that appply for LE rifle instead because of 2 main factors; 1)it's basically a OIL tag 2)since it is a OIL tag they want to increase their odds of harvesting an animal so they go with a rifle. By making the possiblity of drawing 3-4 times in a lifetime MORE hunters will be willing to go the first few times with archery gear. This means FEWER applicants in the rifle pool, making the rifle odds improve while making the bow odds get WORSE.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
I thought I had something with the rotational season dates, but I doubt that many bow hunters would want to hunt after the rifle hunters. I guess I'm part of the problem because I'm not part of the solution.
 
I don't understand how you say that the Muzzleloader and Archery hunters aren't getting the shaft with the season dates the way they are know. The archers hope the rut kicks in before there season is over and the muzzleloaders hope that it is still going. The rifle hunters always get to hunt bulls in the rut. The same can't be said for the other 2.
 
I think that the last week of September is the best time to call elk, but that is just my opinion. I've called in the three largest bulls of my life during the muzzleloader hunt.
 
Let me toss out some thoughts. This is always going to be rifle vs bow vs muzz. I am trying to keep an open and conpromising stance.

I will never understand how the bow and muzz guys are getting the shaft? If you bow hunt you have 3 options, Premium, bow only, or any weapon hunts. The rifle has any weapon, premium, or late. Muzz has premium, any weapon, and muzz. Looks pretty fair to me? Am I missing something? I am sensing taxi, that you want the best dates AND the best draw odds. If I bow hunted and the any weapon dates meant success or failure I would be applying any weapon. Honestly taxi, do you feel you should not have to fight the tough draw odds if you bow hunt?

pro, I keep forgetting about eliminating spikes on the I400 units. In all fairness, maybe quality can maintain? Not sure one way or the other. I will say the dates bug me. Let me explain. On an LE I think I can kill elk with a rifle on July 1st, September 1st, October 1st, or December 1st. The rut does not bug me at all if I hunt it or not. What does bug me, is when you draw once or even up to 3 times in a lifetime with some good draw fortune, I do not want busted up bulls. So I guess my date concern is all about busted horns.

Maybe the best way to keep things fair for all weapons is do as Wyoming does. If you draw, you can hunt 30 days early with a bow. Start the hunt October 1st and put all tags in one pot. Give the muzz guns a thing like the bow guys also like the last week of September or something. This way all tags can be any elk and no one can complain about bow tags, rifle tags, and muzz tags. They are elk tags!

Just some thoughts and observations folks. Not wanting an argument just some discussion!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-08 AT 05:41PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-08 AT 04:36?PM (MST)

any one that thinks this is a bow vs. rifle thing-
if its so unfair to think the archery hunters may possibly get to hunt elk every 4-5 years on these sub units. And have increased tag numbers. You could be in that group too, reaping the benefits. Just learn how to bow hunt. Just like bow hunters have the choice to use there bow on the any weapon hunt, for the better dates. Most of us can choose our weapon.
But this proposal by no means benefits primitive weapon hunters only.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you don't approve of this, ask yourself is it because it is not an effective management tool for the overall health of the herds, does it not promote a sustained hunting future? Or does it just not benefit you, at this moment in time?
If a good proposal came through and it heavily favored traditional hunters or say even crossbow hunters (I'm thinking the minorties here) Say it gave them the best dates, the most tags, and the best draw odds, but it helped the overall picture. I would say that I would have to learn how to hunt with a recurve. Rather than yell its unfair. But thats just me. I originally learned how to bow hunt so I could have better odds of drawing tags.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-08 AT 05:56PM (MST)[p]Blazingsaddle,

You are right guys like you and me have the choice to bowhunt. But, there are also people that are not physically able to make that choice. I know that this proposal is touted as giving more opportunity. For guys like you blazingsaddle it is a huge increase in opportunity. A bowhunter who knows and hunts one of the units in the proposal. I would like to know if anyone on here that has 5 plus bonus points would be willing to put in for these hunts after the first year. This proposal will push 1000's of people that now put in for the Wasatch, Nebo, and fishlake to other units making the opportunity far worse on the non I400 units.

I don't have a problem with the dates fo the hunts I think that it will be good to try someting differant on a couple of units. I do differ with Pro on what the success rates will be. I would say that the archery hunters would have to go up 10% with one week later to hunt. Muzzleloader hunters allready kill 70% plus. Having the muzzleloader hunt before the rifle hunt will push that number over 80% and the rifle hunters will still kill 80% plus. I wonder in couple of years if we are going to keep managing toward the high end of the age objective if tag numbers wouldn't have to be brought back to the levels they are now.
 
RE: I400 Condensed......WTF?

So exactly how is this better than the plan in place?

Are the elk to big now? do we have to great of an opportunity?
are 300 class bulls really what hunters want?


who is this PRO? and why does he seem to think he is better and smarter than the DWR?
Is he A biologist? does he sit on the RAC? or the WRB?

looks like one guys idea with a few good "parts" with alot of bad.
Sounds like a politician to me. gotta fix something untill it is broke.
 
Pro,
You said,
>By making the possiblity of
>drawing 3-4 times in a
>lifetime MORE hunters will be
>willing to go the first
>few times with archery gear.
>This means FEWER applicants in
>the rifle pool, making the
>rifle odds improve while making
>the bow odds get WORSE.

I think that is 100% speculation. I think the opposite will happen. My speculation is that rifle hunters will put in for the rut hunts in the other 24 units before they go archery. Thus rifle odds get worse and bow odds improve.

Why don't you split the rifle tags to an early and late hunt. Don't give any more tags out just split them. Don't take any tags away either. Give the early the last 10 days of August and the late when ever you want. Give the archery 1-21(full/peak rut). Muzz stays the same. Everybody wins or do I just need to become a fulltime bow hunter?. Don't crush me to hard.
 
Oh.......the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round......

I quit. I am going to "learn" to bow hunt again.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-08 AT 07:21PM (MST)[p]After 10 years of this site, I can say that KTC's previous post hits the nail on the head. Round and round, round and round.......

I am sure it will be the same for the next 10 years. We have argued this for the past 4 years, people's opinions ain't never going to change.

KTC- You are smarter than your years (or is it the meds talking). :)

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
-------------------------
 
This is why the regs are such a friggin disaster to understand. The wrong people get this crap through somehow to benefit themselves and screw everybody else up.
 
Damn PO! I was reading through I400 and I started singing the song. I wonder why? Ha!

I guess it is fun. You are right people get pretty opinionated when it comes to hunting and a public resource? I have honestly learned to respect some other opinions. There are some guys I disagree with, but I can tell they have done their homework and have valid arguments. You are one of them along with MulePacker, c3, ss, and ww. We disagree, but I would share a beer and help out on their hunts if they wanted it.
 
I like that, everyone sing now! The wheels on the bus go round and round..... Is it not funny that we could pull up the threads from 6-7 years ago and have the same arguements/oppinions shared?? I just got a chance to finally sit down and read through this thread. I heard some great ideas from both sides of the fence!

I do not know the answers to all these questions. What I do know is there is a rumbling from the DWR/WB that says we need to increase opportunity. This spike thing is no idle threat. It WILL happen if we as a hunting community do not come up with something better. Are we okay with spike hunting on the "premium" elk units. This will not only lower the
"quality" of the experience but it will also have a big impact on tag numbers in the future as we see a large majority of our bull recruitment hit the dirt before their 1st winter. Talk about crappy odds. If that is okay with all of you then let's do nothing.

Or, we can come up with a better plan that will reduce bull to cow ratios with the least amount of impact on quality as possible.

Maybe it is I400. I happen to think it is a well thought out plan that has been discussed and presented to a lot of different people and several organizations in the state. Each discussion has brought new ideas and options to implement in to it. It has evolved a lot since day 1.

Maybe there is a different option that would be just as good?? I have not heard any yet? Bottom line, Do we want spike hunting across the board with a net loss of LE tags? I for 1 do not.
 
Ty,

I would share a camp fire with you any day! I will even pick up a rifle sometime to go hunt with you! I have really enjoyed some of your recent posts. This really is all about the experience regardless of weapon type. I too feel like we need to address the ATV problems we are seeing more and more often. Hopefully the committee over that can come up with some great ideas on enforcement and stiff penalties to curb such behavior.

I would favor some primitive type areas with road closures etc for some hunts/seasons but with out a solid backbone for enforcement I do not think it would be too effective yet. Maybe in a year or 2?

I am also not totally against leaving the hunts as they are if they would manage the units for their actual age objective and not 1-2 years over them. Lot's of good ideas, which ones will work and even more importantly, which ones would make it through the RAC/WB?? Who knows?
 
SilentStalker

I been waitin for somebody to shed light on the big picture.

Excellent comments and well said.

The PROposal may not be perfect but there is no such thing, it's a whole lot better than crowds looking for spikes.
 
Thanks WyoXtec. I see this as a time for us to stand up and act. We can come up with a better plan than spike hunting. So far we have one well thought out plan that increases opportunity and harvest (which satisfies the DWR). Do we have a different plan tht does not increase opportunity but still satisfies the DWR? No, but if one can be drawn up, I would love to see it. Keep the ideas rolling, I like hearing everyones perspective. How do we maximize opportunity with the least amount of impact on quality?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-08 AT 10:00AM (MST)[p]agreed here as well.
I do not think that the I400 is perfect, but as of now there is nothing else on the table other than the state wide spike hunt. Which I don't like.
The only thing good about the current system is the quality, FOR NOW. Other than that its a OIL hunt for most, and the herds are at unhealthy bull/cow ratios. Something has to be done. What. I'm not sure. But I as most would will entertain any and all thoughts.
I will say it again though. If rifle hunters continue to bat close to 1000, there is not a lot of room for more tags.

All that have contributed to this topic have had some good thoughts.
 
Chad thanks for the summary. Something needs to be done in part. Odds are terrible, bull to cow ratios are getting out of whack. Having 5 units managed more like NM, AZ, and NV, who have GREAT QUALITY and provide more OPPORTUNITY. These states offer very few rifle rut hunts. NM offers ZERO rifle rut hunts. Tag numbers will increase according to biological data from professionals. Those who think that people will not put in for these 5 units are wrong. They are putting in for late rifle hunts out of the rut on these units currently. Many just want to draw a tag and go hunting.

Out of state elk tags are getting more and more expensive. Many can't afford to buy out of state tags for their kids to hunt mature bulls.

It is going to be harder and harder to hunt ANY deer or elk in Utah over the next 10-30 years. Population increases, loss of winter range, etc.

I hope we look into the future a little. I'm a trophy hunter. I hunt with all 3 weapons. We need a few units managed differently. I think if we had success rates around 50% on these 5 units for all weapons. Cut spike tags or eliminated them we would be making good progress. imo.
 
Good posts guys. I see many great ideas, and many valid points/concerns being raised. I disagree with the bus /wheels comparision, I see great progress being made. Thanks for all the feedback/support/ideas.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
some talk about managing to the age class already set, how many of you get excited to hunt 4 year old bulls?
 
Red, you don't need to get excited to hunt 4 yr old bulls. Neither do I. The North Cache objective is 4 yr old. However, the past 5 years I know of four bulls scoring 400 points coming off the unit. There will be some big bulls on these units. If your after a 360 plus bull or nothing. Apply for one of the other 23 units may be better. I know a lot of people who would love to shoot a mature 300-340 6 point. That is the same type of bulls most shoot now on the North Cache. With a few 360-400 class bulls.
 
Dang Ty thanks, Thats some prety good company to be
put in, SS, Mulepacker, and C3 are at a level that I hope to one day hit as far as elk hunting skill and knowledge go.
Where ever we happen to be I'll have a cold one with your name on it.

I was pretty shocked to hear the spike proposal info item at the RACs this year. I got a kick out of watching the expression on the "proposal presenters" face as it was being explained.
We are at the point on a few units where cow harvest is maximized and the so called quality guys won't hear of actually
managing to the objectives that were deemed as biologically responsible and accepted BY ALL GROUPS AT THE TABLE. Bottom line is that male elk need to be harvested.

I am severly torn with I-400. In the last couple of weeks
( since the Bucks and bulls proc. has been out )I've taken several calls from bowhunters that are madder than a sumbitch about the general season archery dates being pushed farther from the "perceived rut period" I mean people are pissed as hell about this. Even though I personally stood and supported this idea at the northern RAC ( as an individual ) many bowhunters want this undone AS SOON AS FREAKING POSSIBLE.

I won't get behind any elk plan that further reduces opportunity WITHOUT A GUARANTEE that the tag allocation numbers are going to be there. The inch freaks have a proven track record of not letting biologists or the wildlife board manage to any kind of objective weather it be age, bull to cow or herd
objectives. This plan has to many unknowns for me to get behind it and gamble away an unlimited opportunity with the hope that the RACs and Wildlife Board will do something that they have proven for the last ten years that they are not willing or able to do.

I would rather see the original elk plan enforced as it was agreed to by all involved with the elk committee. This would provide plenty of opportunity and quality for all.
 
JUDAS wiley!!!

ITS A GOOD GOSHDAMN THING MOST BOWHUNTERS AIN'T MANAGING THEIR OWN DOMESTIC HERDS IN HOPES OF MAKING A FRICKEN LIVING!!!

LISTEN TO ME wiley!!!

WHEN YOU SHOOT THE COWS OUT!!!

YES YOU MIGHT HAVE TOO MANY BULLS PER COWS!!!

WTF DO YOU THINK CAUSED THAT???

TELL YOUR SCREAMING BUNCH TO PUT IN FOR THE "ANY WEAPON" HUNTS & USE THEIR FRICKEN STICK FLICKER!!!

OVER & OUT!!!



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-08 AT 08:16PM (MST)[p] Thanks for making my point you freaky fricken feline.
you inch freaks are eventually going to create the first HOMOSEXUAL HERD OF ELK KNOWN TO NATURE!!!

Back off with your inch and stinky sticky bull obsession long enough to do what is best for our herds and while you are at it why don't we maybe try and do what is best for our herds.
Probably the best management plan would probably have to incorporate WHAT IS BEST FOR OUR ELK HERDS. Ya won't let hunters manage by killing bulls ya ##### when cows are mowed down like grass and now you have left no other choice but to kill all of your future 400 bulls while they are spikes. You freaks created this mess and ya won't compromise one fricken bit. Unfortunately you won't be the ones to suffer. think of this like the current administration eventually your kids or your kids kids will pay the debt you built through greed.

Did I mention my idea about actually trying to manage for a well balanced healthy elk herd???

PS you freaky cat get your inch obsessed behind out here for the ISE show in March. I'll get Pred PRO and any other members together and we'll make the rounds.
 
COOL IT wiley!!!

EVERYBODY BUT ME JUST SIT BACK & LET EM "MOW" THEM DOWN!!!

WTF DID YOU THINK WAS GONNA HAPPEN AFTER YOU MOW THAT MANY COWS DOWN???

GET EM ROUNDED UP CUZZ THE ONLY ONE OUT OF THE BUNCH YOU MENTIONED I PROBABLY CAN'T HANDLE IS Preddy!!!

ITS SO BAD wiley THE 400"ERS WILL BE BREEDING OTHER 400"ERS!!!

HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES???

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

Bessy wrote: "ITS A GOOD GOSHDAMN THING MOST BOWHUNTERS AIN'T MANAGING THEIR OWN DOMESTIC HERDS IN HOPES OF MAKING A FRICKEN LIVING!!!"

Show me a cattle ranch where the herd has 80 bulls for every 100 cows, and I'll show you a dumba$$ rancher! You complain about them killing too many cows, yet you are the one screaming the loudest about more bull tags being issued, WTF??

If the herd objective is for 1000 elk and the herd is at objective of 1000 elk, and has a 80/100 cow ratio meaning aprox. 250 new elk born each year would need 250 elk KILLED each year to avoid over-population. Yet the 'horn freaks' (I can't believe it, only here am I considered in the 'opportunity' camp, everywhere else I am a dreaded 'horn freak') will only allow 60 bulls a year killed to keep the 'quality' high. This FORCES the DWR to KILL 190 cows, which does what to the bull/cow ratio? It makes it WORSE!!! Soon there will be MORE bulls than cows, unless WE as sportmen stand together and demand the Wildlife Board allow for the herds to be put in balance, and this can ONLY happen by killing MORE bulls on these units. The Wildlife Board realizes the need to kill more bulls, but because of all the protesting when more mature bull tags are issued, they believe the desired method is to issue a butt load of spike tags. WTF do you think that will do for your chances of crawing a big stinky tag in the future?

WW, I'll be at the show. Let me know when you want to "make the rounds" and I'll be proud to go with you.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 

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