DIY public land vs. private land, guided or unguided............

J

jmtigerfan

Guest
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-08 AT 10:59PM (MST)[p]I've only been elk hunting for 4 years now, and killed my first bull this past Nov., but it has certainly changed my views on fair chase hunting.

Killing that bull on national forest, unguided, was one of the proudest accomplishments of my life. And it's just a decent 5x5, I can't imagine the feeling of killing a monster!

I have absolutely no respect for those who hunt high fence, be it elk or whitetail. Big deal, so you shot a 400 class bull, with a tag in his ear! Same with the 180 class whitetails that they bred and named. "See that 12 point over there, that's ole Tuffy. I used to bottle him as a fawn. I'll let you shoot him for ten grand!"

I don't mind people who use guides, it's just not my style. I'm a DIY kinda guy. I won't hire a plumber to fix my sink or toilet, so I sure the hell would not hire a guide to help me kill a bull. I might ask his advice and follow it, but I don't need him to babysit me.

Private land? It depends on the situation. It can be like shooting fish in a barrel many times. Again, not very impressed by kills on private land.

DIY, fair chase on public land is the way for me!
 
Some of those public land hunts can be like shooting fish in a barrel to. Fish & Game keep the tag numbers down better than alot of private land owners.
Congrads on the bull! I got one last year to, on a DIY archery hunt/public land. I agree, "Great accomplishment". But so was a 3 mile pack out for two guys!

The unguided deal makes you feel like you did something on your own. But think about it. We all hunt unguided at home! People are just scared to do it out west as non-residents.

Ever see a guided resident hunter:)
 
Yeah, I guess you're right about some of these public lands with exceptionally high bull:cow ratios. That sure is'nt the case in the unit we hunt in CO (78). Where do hunt? We're thinking about trying NM this year.
 
tiger,

What you will find, most times, when on public land if you are trophy hunting the hunting will probably be easier. I know what you are saying about your 5X5. Probably more accomplishment there and hard work than a draw hunt. If you hunt NM it will be lots easier than Colorado 5 points I would guess.

I try not to seperate things, rather enjoy the pictures and stories for what they are. I would never hunt, or congratulate, a guy who shoots a pen raised animal. I will not rip on them, but that is not hunting.

I had more appreciation and excitement shooting a spike bull in Utah 20 years ago than a big old bull a few years back. The spike was hard and my first bull.

My advice, is rather than try to seperate the hunts by draw, public, private, and so forth, just enjoy the fair chase thing. I encouraged you to apply in some different states on another thread. Take the good with the bad. Treat yourself to a trophy bull hunt once or twice! In Utah, if you put in the effort like the 5 point, you can kill a 350+ bull!

I have hunted Utah general season deer my whole life. Every year! I want a Henry, Gunnison, or Nevada tag to treat myself to some book type animals! Utah general season has never given me that type of experience.
 
Congratulations on being a much better hunter and a real man for not shooting those poor fish in a barrel. I'm sure the thousands of sportsman who choose to hunt private land are dissapointed that you aren't impressed by their success. And how 'bout those poor guys that need a guide to babysit them ? I'll bet they're impressed too. JEEZZZ...
 
Now don't get chippy Chip :) I think tiger just enjoys the satisfaction of the DIY process...and that's OK.

Private land out west can be huge if you are lucky enough to have a place like that where youcan hunt. No shame in taking a quality animal from a 12,000 acre chunk of the West...or 5,000 acres for that matter. You'll only see a small part of it anyway so you aren't gonna know the difference between public and private.
 
'Shed, Sounds like Tiger got a great bull and he should be proud of that. Its great that he enjoys the DIY process. So do I. Can't we leave it at that rather than implying that people who use guides need babysitters and that guys who hunt private land are doing it the easy way ?? I do get a little ''chippy '' when fellow hunters start implying that they are superior based upon how or where they hunt. I don't intend to start a ruckus but the tone of that post got under my skin. Maybe I'm too sensitive. C.C.
 
Heh Tiger Woods, I have no respect for someone who comes on here and makes such stupid comments and talks out his arse.
 
Excuse me if I offended anyone. I don't have a problem with people who hunt private land or with a guide, I just can't afford it. We do the whole trip for about $1500 per person. This includes tags, food, liquor, diesel, and a couple nights hotel on the drive from Louisiana. That's pretty cheap. If I could afford it, I would probably pay someone for access through private land to unaccessable public land. As for a guide, I can't afford them either. But I feel a great sense of pride doing it myself. Guides are great, they get to spend lots of time in the mountains and learn more about these magnificent animals than I can ever dream to know. But I will eventually get to that point one day in many years.

My only problem with some private land hunts is this; I've met a few people from here and other places who pay $4-6 grand to hunt a ranch where they drive you to a stand in the morning and evening, to hunt over a pasture! Then they have the nerve to brag about shooting a 320 class bull in a cattle pasture! That's shooting, not hunting.

I won't even bother discussing the high fence ranches.
 
>Heh Tiger Woods, I have no
>respect for someone who comes
>on here and makes such
>stupid comments and talks out
>his arse.


Sounds like you hunt high fence with a guide! Did I stike a nerve?
 
I do mostly DIY hunts on public land and the biggest reason is I can't afford to hunt elk on prvate property.
By doing a public land hunt in Colorado ,I can afford to go every year,which I do.
 
I agree with you but there are grey areas. For example whitetails have a typical home range of 1 square mile, i you fence in 100 square miles and deer hunt, I think that is fair chase. Where I live in Ohio many urban areas have no hunting, some have tame deer, some have started to allow bowhunting. These deer have no clue, no fences - but a large fenced in area with hunted deer is much more "ethical" to hunt IMO.

There are tags you can draw with rutting elk with a rifle that are far far easier then some fenced areas.

I have not hunted a fenced area, but I am sure in my lifetime I will, but I will not rank it as much of an accomplishment. Here in Ohio we cna only hunt deer so I might go shoot a hog one year, and I might also find a buffalo hunt that is BIG and really hunting, it may be behind a fence. I have spoken with guys who hunted the WY bison hunt and it was no where near as challenging as fenced bison hunts they had been on.

Overall most fenced places are embarresing and a joke, and give hunters a black eye and need to go away.
 
Well I have done the National Forrest and private land hunts. I'll stick with the private ranch (no fences except for a little barbed wire)if I can afford it. Less hunters more game and a much better experience. If I want a crowd I'll go to the mall.
 
DonV,

What are you some kind of a damn idiot? Let me ask you a question, how many draw elk hunts have you hunted during the rut with a rifle? Ohio? Are you kidding me? You don't even live out west yet you are the authority on free ranging elk in some of the nastiest country?

Lets see, in 2006 in one weeks time I never heard one single bull bugle. So what made this so easy? Was it the 8-10 mile horse rides glassing and pushing the rocks and cedars? In 2007 was it the 3 days of not seeing one single elk in rifle range or not being able to get in rifle range because of the geography?

I do not even know why I bother responding to a damn fool like you DonV. You talk about black-eyes. First off it is stupidity like yours and the uneducated comments like yours that gives hunters a black-eye. Sit on your lame ass and make stupid uneducated comments like hunting elk with a rifle in September is like shooting fenced animals. This will help. Stay in Ohio and hunt whitetails over food plots you moron.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-08 AT 09:44AM (MST)[p]

Apparently DonV has not been out here hunting elk in our neck of the woods.. Even if it is on a trophy area, that doesn't make it a crap shoot. I know guys who have hunted all their lives and have ate tag soup on their LE hunt. I know some of these guys who have hunted themselves to exhaustion. I don't think I've talked to more than one or two guys who have hunted the unit that ktc is talking about that didn't physically get their butts kicked..and that is one of your so called hunts that are easier than a "large" fenced area. And those couple of guys will be the first to tell you that they got lucky... Sure, sometimes things go perfect and the hunt can be easy. Ask these guys on here who guide, if their hunters all go home thinking, "wow, what an easy hunt". I can tell you that even the guided hunters find out that the monster bulls don't just stand next to the road waiting for you to come along and shoot them. I will admit that the September hunt is easier than any other time, due to the rut, but that is the attraction and thrill of those hunts. Still, it is nothing like the animals inside a fenced area. I don't know, but I'd bet that most of those animals inside that fence, have had some kind of contact with humans other than hunting, that lead them to be a lot less wild than the animals we are hunting here.
I try to keep out of this stuff, but it seems you are always professing how easy this is, or how wrong that is, and yet have you ever hunted here?
If these bulls are easier than a fenced in hunt, why does it take some of the best guides and hunters around, to locate and maybe harvest a bull after chasing it for 3 or 4 years?

done ranting...
a*r
 
I saw something one time that said success rates for elk across the board meaning: guided, unguided, res & non-res hunters and all seasons combined was around 25%. That says none of it is easy, if it was easy every hunter would have a big bull on the wall.
 
Don't take this the wrong way, but they are Hunters, they vote people into office and pay money to fight the anti's exactly the same way we do. I don't beleive in their TYPE of hunting or agree with it but they are our allies.
Also the majority of the people that pay for high fence hunts or the high profile guides/outfitters are the ones with the BIG dollars which provide a lot of support and swaying ability for the lawmakers.

Don't seperate them from the rest of the hunters.


Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
Holly smokes. What the heck did I do wrong? Am I not allowed to express my opinion? Maybe I am wrong, who knows?

First ktc what exactly that you said do you disagree with?

I figure it must be the statement about some good rifle rut hunts are easier then some fenced hunts. Can you honestly say that there are NO fenced hunts that are harder then any rifle rut hunts? Have you been to "all"? I have not but I have read many stories about great tags and great private land hunts (not just in Utah but also AZ, WY & NV) and guys passing lots of bulls over 300, I would suspect that there are some fenced hunts that are harded, maybe maybe not but it stands to reason there must be at least one.

Man I do not know where that came from but I am not going to stoop to your level and resort to name calling. I ask that, you do the same.

Since you called me an idiot, allow me to defend myself, I am a license practicing civil engineer. I own 15 rental properties I bought myself, some while I was paying my own way through college waiting tables. I have been on 5 elk hunts out west (and never claim to be an authority) and have taken 4 bulls, 2 6x6 (1 bow, 1 muzzy) and a 5x5 and 4x4 both bow, I have only drawn one decent tag in CO and that hunt with a gun would have been easy (I bowhunted). I have not rifle hunted elk but likely will this year.

I do not appreciate name calling and I do not want to do that. If you disagree please make an intelligent arguement like an adult, otherwise I ask that you do not respond and I will do the same.

My point was really this, I, like many others, want a hard rewarding hunt, however at the same time I dream of drawing a great tag - since the hunting will be a lot better and, yes, easier (San Juan rifle rut tag will blow away a CO OTC hunt). I find it funny because the 2 things I want are opposite. I often discuss this with a buddy. I am in no way saying Utah's hunts are easy (I never even MENTIONED a state in case you failed to notice). When I first came here (MM) I got the impression that if you drew a great tag in Utah you would get a 350 bull right of. I know I am wrong - and again I have not been there so I go on info from probably 50 guys I know who have had great Utah tags. I spoke with a friend in CO who drew a good muzzleloader elk tag in Utah and he hunted like crazy and nearly did not get an elk. He is a heck of a hunter too.

Again I am really trying to "think out loud" and still decide, what, for me, is a true hunt. My friend has permision to hunt (bow cow elk tag) on a ranch (private land) in WY, it costs a pretty penny to rifle hunt there. Rifle season opens during the end of the rut, most years 5-6 guys rifle hunt there. The last few years success has been 100% on trophy bulls, first day, shot from the truck (no walking). The elk stand there and look at you! My buddy says getting within 100 yards of mature elk is simply walking up to them. Even the cow elk are a little spookier, the bulls have no clue. I am sure most of us would agree this is not "hunting". The elk are still rutting then. THIS IS WHAT WAS IN MY MIND WHEN I MADE MY STATEMENT. I think you figured I mean Utah and jumped all over me. My point was I am sure there is a fenced ranch hunt that is tougher then the above described WY ranch hunt - where the elk are free roaming.

ktc do you disagree that the WY ranch hunt I described is harder then every single fenced hunt? I hope not because one would have to an idiot to say all fenced hunts are easier.

Again let me add I think 90%, or more of fenced elk huntes are a joke, I suspect there are 1 or 2 that are not but I want no part of it. I wish they were all gone.

ktc I get the impression that you seem to have some problem with me so I would like to speak with you over the phone and see what that is, if I have offended you or insulted you in any way then I am sorry, I know you have offened and insulted me and it is not fun, after a long weekend with 2 sick little girls at home I did not need to come to work and spend my first hour getting insulted, normally I look forward to logging on here and seeing some stories or pics or having a mature educated debate - not getting insulted. If we have to agree to disagree that is fine but please act like an adult.

Again if you want let me know and I will pm you my cell phone number and ask for a number and time to give you a call.

To sum up my point was you really cannot say every a fenced hunt is a canned hunt and easy, and every free range elk hunt is hard, tough and requires peak hunting skills and luck.

Also for the record I do not hunt over bait and I have taken about a half dozen P&Y whitetails here in Ohio.
 
And, again, please find in my first post where I said utah, I have now read it five times and I cannot find it, what am I missing? It must be in there because I do not think you guys would assume that and jump all over and insult me about mocking Utahs hunts when I did not?
 
I find it very interesting with piss'n match posts like this one, as with other sports, activity or accomplishments.

When someone fills they have to tell somebody else how good they are at something,
they are usually not !
 
DonV,

I was not going to respond, but I feel I owe you an explanation. After our debate on an earlier thread about bows and rifles, you made the same assumptions. I have never been on a fenced or ranch hunt so I cannot say how easy or hard they are. All I was defending was the hundreds of people here who have hunt the rut hunt in September with a rifle that you say is far far easier than some ranches.

All I ask is to watch what you say if you do not want me or others to jump down your throat. You said you apologize. I do the same and I will leave it at that.
 
Thanks for the response, fair enough. Again I really was just trying to make others think about what they (and I) consider fair. Like I said back home here there are some areas you could deer hunt that are legal, open, unfenced but deer are clueless. The ranch my buddy is on in WY is the same, elk are not afraid enough of people to stay out of muzzleloader range let alone rifle.

Again I debate this with myself a lot. I want a hard rough hunt where I work HARD to get an elk, but I want to draw a good tag so I have the easiest hunt I can have. Conflicting I know and I find that very thing interesting. I was trying to get the point across and make others think.

I do not like fenced hunts and was originally dead set against them but after thought, what if you fenced in 1,000,000 acres? Fenced but could easily be fair chase and just as tough as draw hunt, who knows. I know this is not feasible etc etc but it still makes you think about your defenition.

PA has an elk hunt - and I apply - but I have heard the elk are tolerant of people, and I have seen those elk myself and walked right up to them. Rifle hunting them is simply walk in range and shoot them, not high fenced but not quite right either.

To the original poster, I do agree DIY public land is a tough hunt to be proud of but as someone else said if I can afford it I would pay the extra and hunt some better less pressured land when I could, and would love to draw a LE tag that also makes the area better and less pressured.

I have taken all my elk on LE hunts, I know guys who hunt CO OTC and take bulls bigger then mine (and many who take bulls smaller), and I feel they worked harder and deserve credit far more then I do - my LE areas, although not great are a lot better then most OTC hunts.

Again I am just trying to make guys think, shooting a "tame" animal can happen without fences and shooting a wild animal can happen (I suspect) with fences.

Again if I had my way all fenced hunts would be gone. I had a friend who is a nonhunter email me a person he mets link to his website for "hunting" it was a canned hunt. I nearly freaked out. Pics of what deer costs what and the deers name etc. Pay by the inch. I cannot stand that stuff and I do have a problem with guys who go there, they may be hunters but that is not hunting to me.

Another idea is after a few days of hard hunting I would love to open the tent door and see a huge bull 100 yards away, sneak to 30 yards a shoot it, but would I really be as happy as if I had hiked 5 miles and not given up then finally got my bull?

Food for thought, take care and good luck in the Utah draw.
 
For all of the new east coast guys.. Fenced Elk hunting uses the work Guaranteed elk in there adds. There are no public or private free range hunts that would ever dream of that.

As for private vs public, I hunt both in my home state and while there are more critters on private, its never been shooting fish in a barrel. I am sure in certain situations it can be, but in certain situations so can public land. As a general rule there is nothing easy about elk hunting.

When I go out of state I go private unless I draw an LE tag just because If I am going to dump the gas money, I would atleast like to start in a good area.

JMtigerfan,
You have someone helping you out to learn about how and where to hunt elk, lots of people in your situation don't. Thats where guides and private ground come in. I hunt Elk really hard in my home state and I have even hired a guide in OR. I think its no different than paying for college or schooling. I pay for the information gained, not a babysitter. You can read a hundred books, but without hands on expirience it takes a while to get the hang of things.

I would reccomend taking some knowledge in rather than coming on here like the biggest swinging ##### around pounding your chest about how the way you hunt is better than how other hunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-08 AT 09:25PM (MST)[p]I did'nt post this to brag about a little 5x5 I killed! I'm just saying that for me, and several others on here, DIY/public land is more rewarding than guided or private land hunts. Simple as that. I have no problem with private land hunting, except that I can't afford it. But everyone knows that as soon as the shooting starts, the elk move to private land as a sanctuary. Therefore, it is generally much better hunting. I've got no problem with guides either, but I can't find one who'll guide for $50 a day!
 
jmtigerfan again I do agree 100%, I have only hunted DIY public land, national forest, they have been draw tags but mostly east to draw tags, 25% draw odds range or better with 1 exception. I I have the $$$ I will hunt a better area but I too was very happy with my first elk, bow 5x5 public land DIY, like you I was thrilled beyond belief and will never ever forget it.
 
http:www.elknut.com

In most cases, are Private Land, Le Units, Most Draw Tag Units on public land or not easier than OTC Public Land Hunts during general elk seasons? Absolutely!!!! Better elk numbers & less hunting pressure monitored by amounts of hunters! By "easier" this isn't referring to physical capabilities. It's referring to a better quality hunt with better odds & good opportunities at legal bulls by far than OTC Units as a whole! No normal elk hunting is comparable to "Shooting Fish In A Barrel" (grin)

ElkNut1
 
I don't have a problem with people who hunt private land or with a guide, I just can't afford it. We do the whole trip for about $1500 per person.

I've done private land hunts that were Deer and Elk for less than that, congrats on your "cheap" DIY public land hunt.......
 

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