AZ Draw/Points??

P

Panhandle

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I was just wondering how many points everyone had to draw or not draw the units they put in for? I had 11 points (10 bonus plus this years) and put in for unit 1 archery. I thought I might be in the top 20% but it looks like I was wrong. Just curious. Best of luck to all. -Panhandle-
 
I don't want to offend anyone but this is my 3rd archery bull tag in a row as a resident. Prior to that I had waited 6 years.
 
had 2 for elk (loyalty and hunter safety 2 year in a row same unit bull elk 4-a archery ) and 1 bonus and 1 hunter safety for antelope unit 10 (only second time ever putting in for antelope )
 
I had 10 bps, hunter safety point and loyalty point for total of 12. I applied for Unit 9 Archery and was not able to get one of the 7 Non-resident tags (wish they would go back to 100 permits and get rid of that early Rifle), should move to the max pool (with about 40 others) in 2009 with 13 points. Hard to believe someone at my point level drew a max pool tag two years ago and it will take to 2009 for me to get back there.
 
Another Point,this puts me at 8 for NR,but I'm gettin' close!Good Luck to those who were fortunate enough to draw!



No Gut's...No Story!!!
 
5 Points, ten tags in the hunt. been 6 years since my last bull tag, 6a, one point. buddy of mine is five for five though so im beginning to see points hardly matter. 6a cow, 22n cow, 10 bull, 22n bull, 22n cow.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." -- Abraham Lincoln
 
Perhaps the following will offer some hope to those of you who didn't draw. I had 11 total points going into the draw this year as a non-res. I drew 3A/3C Archery and got permit No. 000024. With 20% of the tags going to the "most point holding" applicants, I'm guessing that would be the first 30 tags for a 150 tag allocation unit. I'm thinking I drew my tag as one of the "most point holders" that applied. If I'm off base..sorry.

3A/3C was my 2nd choice, Unit 9 was my first and I didn't get it.

Good luck to everyone in the rest of your draws.
 
I applied to for archery elk tags, 3A/C first choice and 1 second choice, with 11 bonus points and did not draw. Maybe 12 points will get it done next year.
 
11 bp's as a resident and I couldn't draw an archery tag in premium units. Just goes to show that AZ is a crap shoot, bonus point system.
 
Had 5 going in, 6 with the app. 1st and 2nd choice was for early rifle hunts with 25 & 50 tags available respectively. Obviously not drawn, but I did not expect to.

The points may help some, but I am not 100% convinced. Too many stories of 11, 13, 14 points not drawn and shucks, I drew last year and got another this year. So much for the point theory.

If you read the AZ draw process, its very poorly written and in my opinion, seriously flawed. Drawing a hunt tag in AZ is nothing short of winning on a lottery ticket. Just because I bought ten lotto's and you only bought one does not mean I will win more that you.

AZ should make the point system meaningful or throw it out all together. The tag allocation would probably be a lot better if they threw everyone?s name in a hopper and drew one at a time. Look at all five choices on the app drawn and if one choice has tags available, issue a tag. Should also make it a stage production and charge a nominal entrance fee. Everyone could listen for their name to be called. Use the entrance fee to foster youth hunting.

My $0.02.
264X300
 
I just bought the point this year. For next years draw I will be at 18 for elk as a NR.
 
Applied for Unit 4A archery bull. 225 tags so 45 should have gone in the bonus round with a max of a total 22 to NRs. I drew tag #10 as a NR with 8 points so I was in the max point pool.
 
I had 11 points and now will have 12 points for 2009.I did not draw 3c/a for archery non-resident this year so with 11 points it still took some luck I would think.Sure hope to get out next year but wont count on it thats for sure.
Good luck to those that did draw hunt hard and score big.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-27-08 AT 06:01PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-27-08 AT 05:56?PM (MST)

I just used my 17 points to get an early rifle Unit 10 tag.(#5)
My son got 3B archery with 3 points.
My other son got Unit 1 late rifle with 6 points.
This is the first time we have all been drawn, unfortunatly we are not together. All residents
 
My cousin and I put in for archery 3A/3C and 10 with an average of 9 points going into the draw as non-residents and didn't draw. It sounds like it took 12 points minimum to draw a tag as a non-resident for 3A/3C. Looks like we will be looking at 2011 before we have a shot at drawing one of these tags........

Horniac
 
My younger brother drew the same hunt I drew last year so we should have a great time. (He thinks he will get a bigger one than I did, , , silly kid!)
I just finished reading all of the posts here and, believe me, I share the pain. The truth is, I won't complain about it any more. It took 21 years and 19 attempts to draw my 2000 archery bull tag. It took 1 POINT to draw my last one so yes, it is a "Crap Shoot" and yes, I agree, lets go back to the days when they were all just tossed into a big drum and pulled out one at a time!
How many on here remember those days?
No, I didn't draw this year. Didn't expect to. But, as they say, "ya can't win if ya don't play".
Congrats to all the lucky applicants and good luck on your hunts.
 
we have 3 guys who put in on the same app and got drawn for the early rifle bull hunt in Unit 10...they have permits 21,22, and 23. They each had 7 points! I got drawn a couple of years ago with only 2 points for archery bull in 9. So, pretty much its just luck of the draw.
 
PRUNEY, I agree 100% with your statement about unit 9 going back to 100 tags instead of 75. That unit doesn't need a early rifle hunt in it every year. Plus the odds of drawing a tag are just getting rediculous with fewer archery tags available. We need to figure out how to get those 25 permits back!!
 
I've read your posst for quite awhile and know of your lack of luck in the draws...FWIW, I was pulling for you for '08 but it didn't happen again. I know how frustrating that is as I'm usually the big unlucky dog in my group as we usually all apply seperately. My kids and I all were unsuccessful; however, my 68 year old father drew Unit 10 general bull elk so we have a great hunt to tag along on and help him find a good bull.

Allen, here's wishing you better luck with the deer & sheep draws.
 
Ok I printed my results. Status not drawn. I got that part. I'm really good at Understanding not drawn/ unsuccessful. Lots of practice.
Bonus Points as of 01-15-08. 12 +1 loyalty = 13 The 01-15-08
part. They add the 08 point later right? So 14 in 09 ?
13 for a non res does not get 3A 3C rifle. And I knew that going in.
I just can't remember when I started or how many I had for 08 draw.
 
I'm with Pruney. I put in with 12 points as a nonresident. In a way it's kind of a relief, not drawing a tag. I understand that if and when I'm lucky enough to get that special tag in Arizona, it will more than likely be the last one in my life time. I sometimes wonder if hunters in their younger years really understand what fifteen to twenty years between tags really means.
 
Its really too bad that most don't realize they can hunt AZ every few years if they apply for the right units. You have a better chance at killing a huge bull hunting these "lesser" units more often than you do one season in 9 or 10. But I'm done trying to explain that to people.












It's Bush's fault!!!
 
Received (3) tags in (6) years.

2003-Unit 6A Late Rifle Bull (9-points)
2006-Unit 6A Late Rifle Bull
2008-Unit 10 Late Rifle Antlerless

I pray everyone enjoys an amazing season afield! See ya out there....Scattergun
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-28-08 AT 11:50AM (MST)[p]sremim,

We fully understand being able to hunt "lesser" units more often. Our problem is that about 20 years ago we decided to take a drive down to AZ to see what all this elk chatter was about. The first place we stopped was the upper basin on unit 9 because it was the closest to Utah. 20 years later we know this unit extremely well and I have never spent any time in a "lesser" unit. Unit 9 has been good to us over the years. Conch and his older brother have both taken 380 class archery bulls from there and a 340 clas Nov rifle bull and we have a lot of film of some amazing bulls. With 12 points (13 now), I am not willing to accept a unit I do not know at this point. As soon as I draw 9, I can guarantee I will get to know the other units and start applying there. Until then, I will visit 9 with my video camera and find me a bull to arrow next year or in 2010. It isn't quite the adrenalin rush as having bow in hand, but still a heck of a lot of fun.

I wish the first unit we stopped in 20 years ago was not 9, but it was and now we are "ruint".
 
"With 12 points (13 now), I am not willing to accept a unit I do not know at this point"

I completely understand what you are saying. My post was directed towards those with half that many points who say they will wait 10-20 more years before they draw a tag. If you have a high number of points, by all means wait it out. But if you don't have many, why not hunt other places.











It's Bush's fault!!!
 
8 elk points unit 8. no tag. 8 points antelope unit 10. drew a tag. nr. Any information on the unit or where I can find a good map that shows private property for unit 10? Thanks!
 
There's some big lopes in 10. Know a guy who had 17 points and didn't draw, his son had 8 and drew.










It's Bush's fault!!!
 
Reeb, azg&f may still sell the unit map for 10.

As a resident, I drew unit 9 rifle bull in Nov with 4 BP, and 18A rifle antelope with 18 BP

RR
 
"8 elk points unit 8. no tag. 8 points antelope unit 10. drew a tag. nr. Any information on the unit or where I can find a good map that shows private property for unit 10? Thanks!"


reeb congrats on the antelope tag, did you really draw it as a non-resident with 8 points?
 
Yes. 8 points non-resident. Those were some loooooong odds. It seems like every couple of years I luck out. That is putting in for ALOT of hunts though!
 
I had 3 bonus points and was unsuccessful. But I knew that going in. Most of my friends drew late rifle bull tags with the same points. As for me I like the way the point system is set up and hope they don't change anything. I am willing to wait a few years and hunt a lesser unit. There are big bulls in every unit in AZ.
 
reeb,

Congrats on that Unit 10 antelope tag. Was that an archery tag? I put in for 10 rifle and didn't draw with 10 points non-resident. With only 60 rifle tags and only 6 tags max going to non-residents due to the 10% cap, that what have to mean that some non-resident tags fell out of the bonus point draw into the random draw. Just when you think you have these draws figured out.....

Good luck on your hunt!

Horniac
 
My son drew license number 000095 for unit 10 bull late rifle hunt as a non-resident with only 1 point. (He's 17 and very happy about his tag)
 
Reading WYhunter and reeb's posts, I would have to conclude that something went wrong with the 20% non-resident cap. Mathematically, it would be impossible for either one of them to draw.
 
bighrnhntr:

I don't think it would be that difficult.

The 20% pool is not split between residents and NRs. It is all people with max points for that hunt. Most of the NRs with high points are putting in for the premium elk tags (early hunts or archery 9 and 3A/3C), so most of the people who draw the elk tags in the 20% max point draw for other elk hunts such as late - 10 will be residents, as they probably have a higher point average than the NRs for that hunt. That leaves a lot of tags left for NRs without max points, to be drawn after the 20% max point draw.

If you look at antelope points, there are way more residents with max points than there are NRs. Therefore, the 20% max point draw for Unit 10 antelope will mostly be filled by residents, and the 10% NR quota will not be filled by that max point draw.

I know 3 NRs who drew late 10 all with 7 or less points.

Happy Hunting!


>Reading WYhunter and reeb's posts, I
>would have to conclude that
>something went wrong with the
>20% non-resident cap. Mathematically, it
>would be impossible for either
>one of them to draw.
>


"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
To add to what Bigfin said, residents outnumber nonresidents across the board for number of points. So all this mathematical probability BS can be thrown out the window, because it has been proven that those without max points drew great tags. What more proof do you want?















It's Bush's fault!!!
 
why doesn't az game and fish go to a regular true bounus point system like co?????????????????????????????? a 12 year old drawing a early bull tag..garbage.and a guy (unless he is bluffing)drawing a unit 10 tag with 2 bps...garbage. (i am a father and huge advocate of taking kids hunting) but arizonas draw system is a joke to put it mildly.my 19 year old now has 13 bps for antelope ...garbage.a non res drawing the best antelope tag in the US with 8 bps more garbage.i am wondering if anyone has ever brough up to game and fish the thought of going to a true bonus point system?by the way i live in az.just can't belive we all go for this sorry draw system who funds game and fish anyway???i guess if we all just don't say anything and keep lying on our backs it will stay the same?

my 2 cents worth of..you guessed it...garbage
ajoe
 
Averagejoehunter,
I appreciate your frustration, but there are also problems with the pure preference systems. In WY we allocate alot of premium tags to NR that I would love to get. Some WY areas I hunt are right by the Idaho border and the elk go back and forth between the states, so which state's animals are they?

Bigfin's comments are exactly correct on how my son got a late 10 elk tag. Understanding how the system works is exactly why I made sure that unit was one of his first two choices. The key also is that he was the lucky 95th license issued so he got very lucky to have his choices looked at before the 45 tags allocated to NR were all gone and as 90 license went to those with max points clearly there were not 45 of those that were NR. As a NR he would have had to have an even lower license number to have had a chance at an early hunt he wanted. I have put in for several years in states and not got the lucky break my son did.

Like has been said, getting drawn is a combination of understanding the system so as to increase your odds and then waiting to get lucky!!
 
Average Joe,
The alternative with the preference point system would be to tell your son that he won't be able to draw an antelope tag until he applies many years. For example, there were 4339 people applying FIRST choice for a unit 7 antelope permit. There were 65 permits. At the rate of drawing if the permits went to only those with the top # points, your son would have to wait 66 years before he would draw. I'm sure he would stay in the game.

RR
 
avejoe,

Sorry you didnt pull any tags, So what are you saying I shouldnt have put my son in for a early tag. I wanted my son to have the best opportunity to kill a great bull because of this system. It could be years before he see another tag. Or he could have been 19 before he saw his first tag. It took me 12 years to draw a archery tag. As you put it garbage. There's also guys who drew antelope and I have more point than them. Am I butt hurt about it no. Thats the way it is.
 
coues,
no i drew..and i understand the system better than most.thats why it torks me a little bit. and its a giant crap shoot until you get in the elite bonus point pools 17-19 ect. no i am not saying that at all. i hope he takes a monster which unless life as we know it comes to an end he should!...you bought your loto ticket and won.just saying there has to be a better way.i drew a 9 archery bull tag with 3 points! was i stoked you bet! was it right? even i don't think so?i have drawn 7w archery bull 4 times in a row..right? ...nope.i signed 1 of those tags over to my son when he was old enough because he could not get drawn.let me know if its 9-10 i will give you some info i know those units well.i am just a pasionate person who likes some things run corectly.
more of my 2 pennies

ajoe
 
avejoe,

Congrats on the 9 tag, Thats the tag that took me 12 years to draw 2006. I dont think the system is that great either, But I drew a desertsheep tag my 3rd year of applying. So Im not going to complain. Was it right, Probaly not. Not when you see a guy wait 30 years to draw a tag, Or maybe not ever.
 
Congrats to all that drew this year! I was not expecting elk this year since I had my archery bull tag last year (drew with 4 bp's). The only thing that upsets me is that my dad who has 17 points after this year did not get an antelope tag! Also I put in for archery antelope with 10 bp's this year and was not drawn. Both of us are residents. I at least get to go on some good hunts this year helping out. Good luck to everybody!
 
I had 4 points for Elk and 9 for antelope and drew nothing. My brother had the same antelope points and drew tag number 50 out of 50 for 19B rifle. LUCKY!!! By the way we could use some pointers on this unit if anyone is kind enough.
 
AZ rez, 1 bonus point, Unit 8 Bull Archery

2 years ago I accidentally put all Cow hunts and got drawn with 3 bonus points, so I'm feeling a little vindicated
 
Average Joe

Believe it or not, I did complain to the AZGFD about their description of their draw system. I have been hunting non res CO for the past three years and love their system. First in line is first in time. You pretty much know when you are going to receive a tag and just do the time if you want a trophy area. AZ's system is one of the biggest jokes around. They have no system. They can not even describe their process for handing out tags correctly. In the general description they say that bonus points are considered in every draw, but in the detailed decription of the second drawing the specifically say the random numbers are issued "WITHOUT REGARD TO BONUS POINTS" They even title the first drawing for 20% of the tags "The Bonus Drawing". Which is correct. If they can not dazzel you with foot work the baffle you with bs I guess. I think the tax code is the worst system going topped only by the AZ big game draw.

Anyway, they responded to my complaint fairly quickly and told me that every complaint goes to their commission and that they are required to evaluate their system at least once every five years. Complaints and comments from hunters are considered during each evaluation. (Think that was a line?) I suggested that AZGFD needs to study the CO system and take a lot of notes. The AZGFD could also learn a lot from CO about how to run an application process on the net.

Wow, 17 points and no antelope tag? What a crock. I get frustrated with only drawing a deer tag every third or fourth year. That's what drove me to spend my hunting dollars in CO. At least there I know I am going to hunt elk somewhere no matter what. The cost is a bit more, but I'm hunting. If I do not have the time to hunt both AZ and CO I just apply for points in AZ. As we have discussed, the AZ points are a joke, but someday they may actually work so I keep giving them the app fee. 264X300
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-08 AT 09:41AM (MST)[p]Why is Colorado's system so great? If all the tags go to highest point holders then what makes someone just starting out want to start putting in at all with absolutely no chance of drawing? In my opinion, everyone that puts in should have a chance of drawing even if it is just a small chance. Having a chance is what makes the draw fun. Knowing for sure that you have to wait 15+ years for a tag makes alot of people just say forget about it, especially youth hunters and the elderly. Arizona's system is already like Colorados on high end units like mule deer North of the ditch and elk unit 9 and 10. So if you love Colorados system then I don't know what you are complaining about. If something needs to be changed then it should be to give everyone somewhat of a chance on the high end units to keep things interesting, in my opinion.
 
What makes their system so great is you get a point if you are not drawn for your FIRST choice. You can still be drawn and hunt in your second choice area AND accumulate a point. Granted, AZ would have a hard time doing this since they do not have any where near the number of tags CO does, but allocating tags based on points instead of the joke they currently have would be more equitable.

I guess the debate is really about would you perfer an equitable system or true lottery system? If you perfer the lottery system, which you have stated that you do, then lets get rid of the whole point process and just draw applicants names each year. Everyone has the same opportunity. Get rid of the administrative costs of maintaining the point system. If you are like me and would prefer a more equitable system then keep the point system issue tags based on applicants with the most points not on a random number generated by who knows who. Frankly, I would be ok with either of the two alternate systems I mentioned. Anything would be better than what they have.

Every year there are stories of "I had 10 points going in and now I have 11, but a co-worker decided he wanted to try hunting this year and got a tag with no points". No justice in that, yet it happens a lot. Then, to top it off, the guy who got the tag, most likely has no idea what he has and probably only hunts on the week-end(s) during the season cause he has other things to do.

The fact is though, I am just P in the wind since the AZGFD will not change their system any time soon. To quinch my thirst for hunting, I will just continue to hunt in Colorado.

I must add just in case you were wondering, I had no expectations of drawing an AZ elk tag this year since I only applied for the most difficult hunts, first and second choise for early rifle bull hunts. With 5 points going in and only 25 and 50 tags available, I basically just applied for the point and gave AZGFD $121 to hold for a while just in case I was wrong.
264X300
 
Ex- Arizona res, and chalk me up as getting tired of their system aong with every one else!!!!!!!!
had 11 points going into this year unit 9 archery NO LUxk
 
From last years data for the Unit 9 achery bull, 15 permits were given in the 20% pass to those with 12, 13 & 14 BP. The other 60 permits went to those with 0 to 11 BP.

You can see that the BP sustem gives those without max points a chance to draw.

There were 3314 first choice applicants for those 75 permits. Would you want a preference system where it would take 44 years to reach the top (based on these numbers and assuming everyone kept applying)???
 
6A south early archery 10 points
2nd choice, 10 was my first choice, but i didn't want to miss a
good year with so much moisture.
I am sure going to miss all those points.

Steve
 
Succesfull draw with 1 Pt in Unit 22N Late Archery Bull Non Res.
Just could not wait for 15 yrs. No patience and always have to do it the hard way. Quote by MOM! May have to settle for the 310 caliber bull. Maybe
 

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