bobcats elk unit

bowhunt · Apr 23, 2008

What would it look like?
Loaded with pines and quackies, or rolling sage and junipers?
What would the bull to cow ratio be? Would spike hunts be allowed to give some opportunity and keep the herd in good health?
How would cow hunts be handled? Would the cat manage through biology studies, fly the unit for counts, or interview sportsmans for data?
Could we bow hunt his unit? How about rut hunts? Can we have them? What would success rates be? How old would the averag bull be?

Cat? Keep it clean...lol

bobcatbess · Apr 24, 2008

bowhunt!!!

IF SOMEBODY COULD PAINT A PICTURE OF ME & A DECENT UNIT:::

THERE WOULD BE TERRAIN OF EVERYTHING YOU MENTIONED & THEN SOME!!!

THERE'D BE A HEALHTY BULL TO COW RATIO!!!

WHEN I SAY HEALTHY I MEAN THERE WOULD BE BULLS OF ALL AGES,JUST BECAUSE THERE'D BE SMALL BULLS DON'T MEAN I'D ISSUE A MANAGEMENT BULL HUNT/PERMITS!!!

THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY SPIKE HUNTS,WAIT A FEW YEARS,LET THEM GROW,LET SOME LUCKY LE PERMIT HOLDERS HARVEST HIS DREAM BULL,LET THE CYCLE KEEP HAPPENING!!!

COW HUNTS WOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH QUALITY BULL HUNTS,COWS WOULD NOT BE HUNTED IN TO JANUARY & FEBRUARY,AND THEY WOULD NOT BE HUNTED DOWN UNTIL WE SCREWED OURSELVES WITH RATIO'S BEING SCREWED UP LIKE THE DWR HAS DONE WITH PISS POOR MANAGEMENT AS OF TODAY,IF THERE "NEEDED" TO BE A COW HUNT IT WOULD BE AFTER THE BULL HUNTS & IT WOULD LAST ABOUT 9-10 DAYS MAX & AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE,THIS HUNTING BIG GAME FOR 5-6 MONTHS OF THE YEAR & INTO JANUARY IS BULL$HIT!!!

THE cat WOULD GATHER AS MUCH INFO FROM THE UNITS AS POSSIBLE FROM PROFESSIONALS THAT SPEND MEGA TIME IN THE UNITS,THE UNITS WOULD BE FLOWN SEVERAL TIMES A YEAR,AND THERE WOULD BE PROFESSIONAL BIOLOGISTS FROM THIS STATE HIRED THAT KNOWS WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON THAT AIN'T AFFRAID TO SPEAK UP & STAND THEIR GROUND WITHOUT HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT LOSING THEIR JOBS,OPPORTUNISTS WOULD BE WELCOME TO FREEDOM OF SPEACH,BUT WE ARE NOT RUNNING LE UNITS TO SATISFY PISSCUTTER KILLERS,TRUE BLUE SPORTSMEN CAN ACTUALLY PROVIDE SOME OF THE BEST INFO,THEY'RE IN THE FIELD MORE & THEY NOTICE CHANGES IN A UNIT MORE THAN ANYBODY!!!

CAN WE BOW HUNT THESE UNITS???

ITS BEEN HAPPENING HASN'T IT???

WE CAN BOW HUNT THEM BUT THE BOW HUNTERS DON'T NEED A MONTH TO GIT-R-DONE!!!

I DON'T MIND BOW HUNTING,I BOW HUNT A LITTLE MYSELF,BUT DO BOW HUNTERS REALLY NEED 3 TIMES AS MUCH TIME IN A QUALITY LE ELK UNIT???

TELL ME,WITH ALL OF THE HUNTS THAT NOW HAPPEN ON LE ELK UNITS,HOW IN THE HELL IS SOMEBODY NOT GOING TO HIT THE MIDDLE OF THE RUT???

THESE HUNTS GO ON FOR MONTHS,SOMEBODY WILL HIT IT (RUT!!!),BOW HUNTERS ARE PISSED BECAUSE THE RIFLE HUNTERS GET IN ON IT,THEY FORGOT TO TELL YOU THEY USUALLY GET IN ON THE FIRST PART OF THE RUT DEPENDING ON WEATHER,EVERYBODY WANTS THE RIFLE HUNT MOVED OUT OF THE RUT,THAT EVERYBODY CONSISTS OF MOSTLY BOW HUNTERS & MUZZ HUNTERS,GET THE PICTURE???

AFTER SPORTSMEN PUT YEARS & YEARS INTO GETTING THIS PERMIT, YES THE SUCCESS RATES WOULD BE HIGH & YES THEY WOULD BE OLDER MATURE BULLS FOR THE MOST PART,THERE'D BE DINK BULLS AROUND ALSO,EVEN SPIKE BULLS & IF THATS WHAT YOU WANTED, SHOOT WHATEVER BULL YOU WANTED!!!

NOT EVERYBODY IN THE STATE CAN HUNT THESE UNITS!!!

WHEN MIS-MANAGED IT CAN BE DESTROYED IN A HURRY,TWO LE UNITS CAN ALREADY PROVE THIS!!!

I MAY NEVER DRAW & THATS O.K. BY ME,I ENJOY SEEING & PLAYING WITH THESE BIG STINKY'S EVERY FALL,IF I NEVER GET THE CHANCE TO PUT ONE ON THE GROUND ITS O.K. BY ME!!!

BUT IT SURE HAS MADE MY DAYS,YEARS, SEEING FRIENDS LIKE MRS. ktc,ktc,ANTLERICK,MRS. antlerick,WARRBIRDUM,ss,AND ALL THE OTHER GREAT HUNTERS (NOT LEAVING ANYBODY OUT!!!) GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO HARVEST WHAT IS PRETTY MUCH A ONCE IN A LIFETIME BIG STINKY!!!

IF I COULD PAINT A PICTURE OF ME.........................!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

bowhunt · Apr 24, 2008

Thanks Cat!
Sounds like a unit I would put in for.

sjhgraysage · Apr 24, 2008

I would certainly want to apply there as well, even knowing I may never draw.

BTW, "bess", didn't you draw a turkey permit for this spring??
if so, spent any time chasing gobblers???

Lien2 · Apr 24, 2008

There would be ATV trails throughout!!!

Lien2

proutdoors · Apr 24, 2008

I may have missed it, but was is your harvest age average bessy? If this were a herd of 1000 elk, how many bull tags and how many cow tags each year would you issue? How would you pay for flying the unit 3 times a year? Just curious. Thanks!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

bobcatbess · Apr 24, 2008

sjhgraysage!!!

YA I DID!!!

I'LL SEND YOU A PM WHEN I GET TIME!!!

Pro!!!

THERE WOULD BE BULLS OF ALL AGES IN THE UNITS!!!

SOME OF THE BULLS WOULD LIVE TO A RIPE OLD AGE,AND IF A FEW DIED OF OLD AGE THAT WOULD BE O.K.!!!

IT WOULD PISS YOU OFF Pro BUT YOU'D BE O.K. I PROMISE!!!

I SURELY WOULDN'T MANAGE THE HERD LIKE THEY MANAGE SOME OF THESE HERDS HERE,15 FRICKEN BULLS PER 100 COWS,WAFJ!!!

YOU CAN TELL YOUR BIOLOGIST BUDDIES I WOULDN'T MANAGE FOR JUST MONEY,NOR WOULD I MANAGE FOR JUST PISSCUTTERS!!!

IF I SEEN THE BREED STOCK (COWS!!!) HAD BEEN OVER HUNTED I'D PUT AN END TO THAT REAL QUICK,I SURE AS HELL WOULDN'T JUST KEEP SLAUGHTERING THE BREED STOCK LIKE THEY'VE DONE HERE!!!

FLYING IS EXPENSIVE Pro,BUT THE DWR GENERATES A LOT OF MONEY,SOME OF THAT MONEY COULD BE USED FOR WHATS NEEDED,MAYBE YOUR BIOLOGIST BUDDIES COULD DRIVE THEIR TRUCKS FOR AN ADDITIONAL YEAR BEFORE GETTING A NEW ONE???

MONEY DOES HAVE TO BE PUT BACK IN TO THE GAME HERDS,IT'S NOT JUST INCOME LIKE ITS BEEN FOREVER IN THIS STATE!!!

YOU AMAZE ME WITH YOUR NUMBERS Pro!!!

WHY DON'T YOU GO TO WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT & FIX THE NATIONAL DEFICIT,THAT OUGHT TO KEEP YOU BUSY FOR A MINUTE OR TWO!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

bobcatbess · Apr 24, 2008

sjh!!!

I SENT YOU A PM!!!

CHECK YOUR INBOX!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

RACKMASTER · Apr 24, 2008

you forgot to mention all other guys hunting in thongs wearing sailor hats!
rack

scoutdog5 · Apr 24, 2008

Greetings from Oregon.

One of the things I think is somewhat unfortunate in Utah is the extremely high any weapon success rate, and, in some cases, very short time frames spent hunting. As I recall, the average any weapon hunter spent 1.7 days harvesting a 6+ year old bull with 100% success rate on Oquirrh-Stansbury, which some of you probably consider a "pisscutter" unit.

Having spent 40 years chasing the wiley elk in Oregon, and 1 year in Wyoming, I have yet to kill a bull that would not be in the pisscutter class. Have blown a couple of chances at big bulls, but not many. For us poor Oregonians, a true public land trophy elk is the accomplishment of a lifetime, and requires years of hard work, luck, research, etc. Now, I am certainly NOT saying Utah should be like Oregon, but it does seem to me that harvesting a trophy bull elk (330+) should not be guaranteed, should take a lot of effort, hunting skill, etc. For that reason, I would like to see Utah move the early any weapon hunt into October. I believe this would allow more tags to be issued, without increasing harvest of the top end bulls, and likely more harvest of smaller bulls, limiting the need for spike only hunts.

After 40 + years, I really don't want to arrive the night before the hunt opens, and kill that bull of a lifetime shortly after dawn on opening morning, regardless of how big he is. I want to sweat, cuss, hurt, scheme, plan, screw up and suffer from adrenaline withdrawal for days before finally pulling the trigger on the bull of a lifetime. That is one of the reasons I put in for Oquirrh-Stansbury late (Pro's offer to provide info on where to go certainly was also a factor). If I am lucky enough to draw that tag someday, my plan is to spend one full week scouting immediately prior to the season. Then, even if the bull of my dreams is standing there at daylight on opening day, I will feel like I put in the time and effort to deserve to harvest such a magnificant trophy.

Bobcat, I imagine you and pro and others aren't really as far apart as sometimes appears to be the case, based on your post about the perfect unit. Absolutely agree with most of what you stated, particularly flying the unit on a regular basis to really know what the population looks like, and shortening the total length of time that hunting occurs on a unit.

Scoutdog

drannan · Apr 25, 2008

Please, Please don't anyone EVER try running their Fish and Wildlife like Oregon does. ODFW manages for opportunity, and barely has any quality! Yes, I know that there are a few places to find a great bull if you wait approx 14 years.....I also know you can find good bulls on a few private ranches, but all in all, I would give anything for Oregon to try Utah's management stle. I love "opportunity" but having an opportunity to hunt small bulls and bucks means nothing after I killed a few.

I love hearing the ideas you guys put foreward.....Bobcats elk unit sounds good too, but Pro's need for facts is exactly what Oregon should be thinking about.

sjhgraysage · Apr 25, 2008

Bobcatbess
Got it and back at ya! Thanks.

carbonnation · Apr 25, 2008

Pro wants exact numbers. Then turns around and questions where funding is going to come from to fly the units? Why not hit up SFW?

We can not keep spouting off numbers that we know are not accurate. I think bobcat makes a good point about collecting his data. More the better.

proutdoors · Apr 25, 2008

I am not expecting 'exact' numbers, but ANY numbers would be better than what bessy has provided. Since this is a hypothetical unit, I am curious how bessy would get to his 'objectives'. How hard is it to simply say it will have big bulls, bull:cow ratios will be in check, etc.. My question is HOW do you get there? I am fine with flying units and getting better counts than we get now, bessy said he would fly it 3X a year, I was just curious where the funds for that would come from.

Let's get to a little reality here. If the 'utopian' unit had 1000 elk on it, with a harvest age objective of 6-7 years of age; how many bulls would be harvested each year, how many cows, what would the bull:cow ratio be? To merely say it would have x,y,z without saying how you would accomplish x,y,z is fairytale fluff. Don't tell me what you want, tell me how you would get what you want.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

carbonnation · Apr 25, 2008

How about this for your funding.

Give SFW there 5% of there expo tags and there banquet tags, but require them to use the monies to benefit the units from which the tags came. IE. San Juan tag money could only be used to improve the San Juan unit.

The biologists in this state are very competant. If they say a certain bull:cow ratio is health, I believe it. If they say a certain unit will only sustain a certain number of elk, I believe them. If you read between the lines of bobcats ramblings and expletives, he actually makes a good point. If we know where these limits are......why do we keep screwing them up so badly? You can't blame the fishlake slaughter on the cattlemen or sportsman. That was a management issue. plain and simple. Anthro was a management issue, and there will be more management issues. they have the numbers, they have biologist imput and these mass slaughter cow hunts continue to go unchecked in the name of herd objectives. Then when they screw up they say ooops, no more hunting for a few years and they move on to the next unit.

Bottom line...I would rather have acurate counts and management plans backed by science (not guesses), than a 1000 wildlife underpasses. Let the non-hunting public fund those. If they have to fix there cars often enough, they will start crying for a solution. That can come out of the UDOT budget.

Antler1 · Apr 25, 2008

Pro,
This is bobcat's unit don't screw with it!

bobcatbess · Apr 25, 2008

Antler1!!!

LOL!!!

THERE AIN'T NO UNIT THAT IS MY UNIT!!!

AND "UTOPIAN" Pro!!!

I SAID THERE'D BE BULLS OF ALL AGES!!!

YOU WANT A DINK,SHOOT A PISSCUTTER!!!

YOU WANT A MOTL,SHOOT A SPIKE!!!

YOU WANT TO ACT YOUR AGE,SHOOT A QUALITY BULL & QUIT WORRYING ABOUT THAT AGE OBJECTIVES THE DWR HAS BAFFLED YOU WITH!!!

GOOD GAWD,WE WENT YEARS WITHOUT EVEN AN AGE OBJECTIVE TO WORRY ABOUT & THE LE BULLS STILL GREW BIGGER & BIGGER!!!

I SAID:::

THE UNITS WOULD NOT BE MANAGED LIKE THEY HAVE BEEN MANAGED RECENTLY!!!

THEY WOULD NOT BE OVER COW HUNTED LIKE THEY HAVE RECENTLY!!!

PAY FRICKEN ATTENTION Pro!!!

IT WAS YOUR BUDDY BIOLOGISTS & DWR WITH THEIR PISS POOR MANAGEMENT THAT GOT THESE UNITS ALL SCREWED UP DUE TO GREED,DID YOU HEAR THAT Pro???

I KNOW 12 YEAR OLD KIDS/SPORTSMEN THAT COULD OF DONE A BETTER JOB,DID YOU HEAR THAT Pro???

QUIT WORRYING ABOUT EXACT NUMBERS,NO MATTER WHAT YOU DONE YOU'D NEVER HAVE EXACT NUMBERS,BUT YOU COULD GET A CLOSE ESTIMATE OF WHAT THE UNIT HOLDS & WHAT IT WILL ProDUCE!!!

I'VE SEEN THE DWR MANAGE FOR 15 MALES PER 100 FEMALES,THESE ARE GENERAL UNITS/AREAS AND LET ME TELL YOU Pro THE AREAS/UNITS SUCK!!!

I'D SAY ON A SMALL UNIT,1,000 THAT YOU MENTION I'D WANT THE BULL RATIO UP AROUND 35-40 BULLS PER 100 COWS!!!

THAT OUGHT TO PISS YOU OFF Pro???

GOOD GAWD,EACH BULL GETS ONLY 3 COWS!!!

REMEMBER,WE ARE MANAGING FOR MOSTLY QUALITY NOT TO SEE HOW MANY COWS WE CAN KNOCK OUT OF THE HERD!!!

AND SURELY WE AIN'T GONNA KILL ALL THE SPIKES!!!

I DON'T KNOW HOW GOD & MOTHER NATURE EVER DONE IT WITHOUT YOU Pro,I REALLY DON'T???

WILL YOU PLEASE ANSWER THAT QUESTION???

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!