Who cares about cows?

[Antlerglazed]

I, like many of you, got to 2 or 3 wildlife banquet/auctions a year. You eat, play a few games and after about 200 bucks, you leave. You feel okay about spending that because after all, "some" of that will go towards "helping" our wildlife. So, say you spend $500.00 a year on fund raising events. How much or what does that 500 go to?

I, like many of you, think that the increased cow elk tags for Utah are a bit steep. After some thinking I've came up with my own managment plan, if you will! With the 500 that I would've spent on upcoming banquets, I instead will be putting in for antlerless elk! That 500$ will put in 9 of my closest friends and family, with the understanding that those who draw, don't hunt, we shread the tags! I'm not sure of the exact chances of drawing, but if we even get 2 or 3 tags, thats money well spent! 500 dollars to save 3 cows this year, which could double next year or if they breed, or 500 dollars for a magazine subscription and a night out? It doesnt even need to be that much. If my math is right one tag would be 55 dollars with app fee. 55 dollars to save one elk now, which may turn into a herd of bulls 5 years from now!

If everyone on MM is as fired up as they claim, we could essentially save our kurupt dwr from ruining of the worlds best elk herds!

Put your $$$ where you mouth is and we can have a tag shreading, cow saving party in June!!!!!!!!!!

 

[swbuckmaster]

tree hugging Peta logic



Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[Clyde Hollinger]

I see no tree huggin or peta logic here... Just common sense... I like the way this guy thinks! Where you from anyway?

Elk

 

[Antlerglazed]

If it means joining peta to save our elk, WHERE DO I SIGN!!! I live in Utah County.

 

[swbuckmaster]

"I live in Utah County" could explain some of it.

Do you bone heads even know why cow hunts are even issued?

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[bobcatbess]

HEY Antlerglazed!!!

I TRIED THIS LOGIC FOR MANY YEARS ON DOE DEER TAGS!!!

I SAVED A FEW,I THINK???

I WAS BOUNCED BY MANY PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY USED TO LIST YOUR NAME IN OUR LOCAL NEWS PAPER THAT HAD DRAWED TAGS!!!

THE LOCALS KNEW I DIDN'T SHOOT DOES & WERE ASKING WTH???

SO I TOLD THEM!!!

THEN WORD GOT BACK TO THE DWR OF WHAT I WAS UP TO & THEN THEY ALOTTED EVEN MORE TAGS!!!

I'LL GIVE YOU AN "A" FOR YOUR EFFORT BUT IN THE LONG RUN YOUR PLAN WON'T WORK VERY WELL & THE DWR LOVES MORE $$$ !!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[swbuckmaster]

BESS is correct they will issue more tags the next year or even do a hunt later in the year say December/January.



Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[Antlerglazed]

LAST EDITED ON May-01-08 AT 10:44PM (MST)[p]Bess,

If I save one calf, it will be worth it! I'm going to spend the money anyway. I can either get a tag or give it to a busty gal selling cards at an MDF banquet and never see the results!

buckmaster,

I don't have 500 plus post on MM and I'm from Utah County, meaning that I know nothing about wildlife. So please, tell me why they have cow hunts?
I didn't post to receive assinine statements from you!

Make it a year round hunt then! That will just mean it's working won't it??

 

[swbuckmaster]

Herds are over caring capacity.
Herds are getting into trouble say with cars/yards or farmers crops.

I have only been on one cow hunt in my life. So I am no expert on killing cows but there are a lot of experts in Utah.




Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[Antlerglazed]

LAST EDITED ON May-01-08 AT 11:09PM (MST)[p]I was being sarcastic when I asked why they have cow hunts!

 

[swbuckmaster]

That is the way it should happen. They need to release more tags! There is something wrong with the way things are happening right now.

Greed!! The division is getting money from certain groups and there are people that have been putting in for these Le hunts and don't want to see the quality of the bulls go down. "I for one cant and wont blame them I am in the same boat". They know if you turn 500 rifle hunters loose during the rut with a 90% success rate the big bulls will be killed off

So the only solution is to kill the cows this keeps the herds under carrying capacity. This is a fundamental flaw you will only have big bulls for a short time. If you also have a hard winter you could loose the herds ability to make a quick recover.

This is where BESS and you fellas will be correct. Killing the cows will eventually kill the whole herd.

Possibly the only real solution to keeping the entire herd under carrying capacity is by having spike hunts. The flaw here is are you willing to wait for a OIL tag to hunt for elk or you can kill a spike. Some people in Utah will never be able to hunt a big bull if you look at the odds.

The solution I like is to allow lots more primitive tags. Most archers are willing to take a lesser bull because there success rate is so low. The first bull that comes into range is good enough. This solution would also allow you to hunt more often say every 5 years.

I am not against Rifle hunters I would hunt with a rifle if I could hunt every year but only if I had a chance at big bucks and big bulls.

The Wasatch front with one exception is an area I would like to see replicated more in Utah. Anybody with a tag can hunt it, It is over the counter, it has big bucks, big bulls, herds are healthy, You can shoot a cow/doe or a buck/big bull. It is really a win win for almost everybody that is willing to pick up a bow.

Here is the exception I would like to see these areas have: I would like to make it a special draw for rifle hunters in these areas. This would allow you to hunt it every year with your bow and allow you if you are lucky to draw a rifle tag where you could be more selective and possibly harvest a bigger bull.



Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[swbuckmaster]

dont know why you edited your post I tried to answer your question


Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[nmelktrout]

Are Utah's bull to cow ratios so poor that reducing the number of cow elk would threaten the health of the herd? Or, is the state issuing such a huge number of tags that the herd would be threatened? If so then I can understand the negative effects of increased antlerless permits. But if herds are at carrying capacity, especially in the face of heavy winter conditions, then what is the flipside of maintaining a healthy herd that will not overeat its winter range -not too mention the calving and summering grounds in the face of a drought? I honestly don't know enough about the condition of your herds or status of your seasonal ranges but I am a firm believer in keeping cow or doe numbers in check. The best thing that happenned to the bull elk hunting on my family's place in NW Colorado was an increase in cow tags and late season landowner tag cow hunts. It took a few years but the elk we started harvesting were generally healthier (heavier on the scales), we started seeing and harvesting more mature bulls, our aspens weren't completely stripped, and our hay stacks were raided much less frequently during the winters. Granted, Colorado isn't Utah in terms of trophy elk hunting but too many elk is not a good thing for the long-term future of any elk herd for range conditions or the spread of disease. Nothing worse than a huge die-off due to disease or starvation. That would destroy your hunting for many years to come.

I've also been on enough places in the Midwest and a couple in Texas with strong antlerless deer management programs where they have strictly documented the harvest number, sex, age, and inches of antler on every animal killed on their land for decades. The results on the "trophy" managed lands with strong antlerless harvests(no high fence crap here) were staggering in terms of the increased and sustained numbers of trophy antlered animals harvested since the inception of their increased antlerless take. Even though elk sure as hell aren't whitetail, it takes a balanced population to maintain good range conditions, genetics, and herd health, all of which (in my nonprofessional opinion) are crucial for quality hunting opportunities. I just wish we could figure out how to get our muley population back here in NM. We don't have a season for does which is good due to such low herd numbers and poor range conditions, but our pisscutter (thank you bobcatbess) 2 point antler restriction is a joke...

So, what's up with Utah's elk herds? All I ever see is all the posts and articles about monster bulls. Are there some serious concerns?

 

[swbuckmaster]

?So, what's up with Utah's elk herds? All I ever see is all the posts and articles about monster bulls. Are there some serious concerns??

Yes there are some serious concerns. Its hard to see it especially if you go out and see elk every where.

The problems are It is probably a once in a lifetime hunt for only 10 percent of the hunting population in Utah.

The elk are also reaching or have reached their herd carrying capacity on some units with a 1 bull to 1 cow ratio. So the division can't keep issuing cow tags. If they keep issuing the cow tags at some point there will be no baby elk. The units will crash


Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[Antlerglazed]

LAST EDITED ON May-02-08 AT 01:34AM (MST)[p]"So the division can't keep issuing cow tags. If they keep issuing the cow tags at some point there will be no baby elk. The units will crash"

THATS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY, BUT I GET THROWN ON THE PETA BUS FOR SAYING IT! GOOD HELL! YOU'VE SURE GOT A LOT OF INPUT FOR THINKING THIS IS A "TREE HUGGING PETA LOGIC"!!

The herds in UT are doing great. Utah has really come a long way in last decade+. The point of this post was not to say that we don't need a cow hunt. WE DO! I understand that, but I don't think we need to wipe a quarter of the herd out just to maintain a number. The point was, in a couple years we could have some problems do to the tag #'s. I'm speaking mainly about the Wasatch unit. You can go on just about any post("wasatch tags") that reads about the Utah elk herds and there will more than likely be a post about how the Wasatch is going down hill or its not what it used to be, I've seen this first hand. That's not saying it's in any way a bad unit or one that can't produce a 400" bull.

Why can't we take other steps to adapt to the growing herd, ie BUY WINTER RANGE! I for one do not see the carrying capacity full on the Wasatch. Maybe in certain city's during the winter there could be to many elk, but that doesn't take into count the lack of elk in another part of the unit. We can't say that we need to cut the herd down because of hard winters or drought. Before this year, we hadn't seen that much snow in 15 years. The bulls and genes are here, we just need to keep it that way.

 

[PleaseDear]

We do this on doe deer tags every year when we draw them...do not even hunt the tag.

I keep seeing that they will only increase the tags the next year but I go for the same 1st choice tag every year and a CWMU tag as 2nd choice and really do not see any change in tags offered over the years.

They have actually stopped a few of the doe hunts all together.

So I can see why you are thinking save a cow elk and not hunt the tag when drawn...I think a guy should do what he feels best about and we have no control over the decision makers final process...... as we all are just website biologist...and that is enjoyable to view fellow M&M'ers thoughts.

Robb

 

[swbuckmaster]

" THATS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY, BUT I GET THROWN ON THE PETA BUS FOR SAYING IT! GOOD HELL! YOU'VE SURE GOT A LOT OF INPUT FOR THINKING THIS IS A "TREE HUGGING PETA LOGIC"!!"

Peta Logic let me explain why this is peta logic
Peta already tries and does purchase LE tags, doe tags and any other tag they can get their hands on to save the animals. It hasn't worked for them yet.

You did post what will help these areas out but you edited it out. Why?



Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[swbuckmaster]

We are all arm chair biologist on this sight like Robb says. I really am not attacking you I am just having a fun time discussing your thoughts. Don?t try and take me too critical I know where you are coming from.


Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[nmelktrout]

LAST EDITED ON May-04-08 AT 07:28PM (MST)[p]Interesting post and thanks for opening my eyes to what is happening in some of your Utah units. That is disconcerting and would be grounds for alarm for an increase in antlerless tags....No wonder everyone holds out for monster bulls in Utah if and when they draw. Damn, once in a lifetime for 10% of residents? But as many 400 inchers as are cranked out every year I guess it is a game worth playing. I guess I won't take it for granted that I will get to hunt elk every year..