PleaseDear
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Antlerless Link
- Thread starter PleaseDear
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PleaseDear
Long Time Member
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- 10,433
Yeh--I never realized the Monroe area had so many doe deer running around?
Nor did I realize Nine Mile had so many cow elk? 500+ tags...
Richfield is getting a spanking on those tag numbers! and the 3-Corners has back to back years of shoot 'em all.....
Maybe it is a backdoor approach to try and keep the wolves out of our state.....nothing here to eat so go back to Wyoming or over into Colorado...ha
Don't even start up about the Anthro cow hunt tag numbers....
Robb
Nor did I realize Nine Mile had so many cow elk? 500+ tags...
Richfield is getting a spanking on those tag numbers! and the 3-Corners has back to back years of shoot 'em all.....
Maybe it is a backdoor approach to try and keep the wolves out of our state.....nothing here to eat so go back to Wyoming or over into Colorado...ha
Don't even start up about the Anthro cow hunt tag numbers....
Robb
Daxter
Very Active Member
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We are heading for trouble with elk management in Utah. Anthro for example, has a population objective of 700 and an estimated population of 1,100. The DWR gives 240 cow tags (you success rate is historically below 50% so that means probably about 120 cows killed) and folks scream bloody murder. On Anthro the Forest Service is complaining about habitat damage in aspens, and whether you agree with them or not, the DWR is legally obligated to manage to the population objective of 700 that the RAC's and Wildlife board set.
The DWR proposed increasing bull tags on Anthro from 24 in 2007 to 28 in 2008 and several RAC members expressed concerns and passed the increase with reservations. That leaves cow tags as the only tool the DWR has to manage elk populations. After a few years of keeping the population at the objective using cow tags we end up with units with bull to cow ratios that are out of whack. What do you do? On some units you could increase the elk population objective, but all that does is give you a few more years before you end up with the same problem again on an even larger scale.
It is socially and politically unacceptable to increase bull tags significantly, and that leaves cow hunts the only way to manage the population. Maybe you could use spike hunts? I am sure the envrio extremists would suggest wolves as the perfect solution. I don't know for sure what answer is (not wolves though), but I do know that the biologists aren't just giving cow tags to make more money, or to secretly try to destroy elk hunting in Utah.
It is more complicated than it seems, and while Utah arguably offers the best LE bull hunting in the world right now, it is amazing to me how much people complain. If the DWR really wanted to make money off elk they would manage elk like CO. Big LE bulls cost the DWR more money to produce than they generate. Now if you want to talk about the money big bulls generate for outfitters, guides, and conservation orgs that is a different story.
Dax
The DWR proposed increasing bull tags on Anthro from 24 in 2007 to 28 in 2008 and several RAC members expressed concerns and passed the increase with reservations. That leaves cow tags as the only tool the DWR has to manage elk populations. After a few years of keeping the population at the objective using cow tags we end up with units with bull to cow ratios that are out of whack. What do you do? On some units you could increase the elk population objective, but all that does is give you a few more years before you end up with the same problem again on an even larger scale.
It is socially and politically unacceptable to increase bull tags significantly, and that leaves cow hunts the only way to manage the population. Maybe you could use spike hunts? I am sure the envrio extremists would suggest wolves as the perfect solution. I don't know for sure what answer is (not wolves though), but I do know that the biologists aren't just giving cow tags to make more money, or to secretly try to destroy elk hunting in Utah.
It is more complicated than it seems, and while Utah arguably offers the best LE bull hunting in the world right now, it is amazing to me how much people complain. If the DWR really wanted to make money off elk they would manage elk like CO. Big LE bulls cost the DWR more money to produce than they generate. Now if you want to talk about the money big bulls generate for outfitters, guides, and conservation orgs that is a different story.
Dax
MulePacker
Active Member
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Dax,
Thanks for bein a stand up guy. I wish we had a few more. It is too bad we allow the Cons groups and politics to mismanage our wildlife. Someday maybe we will get back to biology. Anyway I say AMEN to your thoughts and wish you the best.
Travis
Thanks for bein a stand up guy. I wish we had a few more. It is too bad we allow the Cons groups and politics to mismanage our wildlife. Someday maybe we will get back to biology. Anyway I say AMEN to your thoughts and wish you the best.
Travis
H
huntin100
Guest
Dax, Thanks for your concern. Please forward your remarks to the Racs and Wildlife board. Does anyone know if we are going to have a lot more spike permits this year as well?
Dax,
First of all, my biggest beef is regarding deer. The DWR has no business issuing ANY doe tags when our deer herds are in dire straits--then again its all about BUSINE$$. Gotta sell those tags to pay the bills. We should be closing some areas to all hunting for a few years to rebuild our deer herds--or importing a bunch of whitetails so we have a robust deer herd. (Not my choice, but where we may end up.) I would like the DWR deer management team to start managing the mosquito population near my house. If they had the same success they have with deer, my BBQ would be a lot more comfortable.
On elk, the DWR manages for bull/cow ratio and total herd numbers. Unlike deer management, the DWR has done a great job building the best quality elk herd in the country. I think many of us are very hesitant to see a shift in management strategy--we've see too many catastrophes in the past.
So where does the DWR come up with herd objective numbers? Is it from carrying capacity? Biological principals like you point out? No way. They try to keep as many animals as they can on a unit. What constrains how many animals a given area can sustain? Feed? Winter range? Water? Winter kill? Predation? That's what we would all like to believe, but the reality is that sheepmen and cattlemen largely determine how many elk are on a unit. They scream loudest and are a major part of the rural economy--thus the local legislators support them (as they should). (San Juan County Commissioner Lynn Stevens said "There is not a county commissioner in rural Utah that favors an increase in elk..." (San Juan Record Sept. 12, 07)) Legislators lean on the DWR and RAC to keep numbers down. DWR capitulates and the DWR issues a pile of cow tags to keep the herd at their objective. This puts the bull/cow ratio out of wack. The DWR tries to increase bull tags, but there are a bunch of us unenlightened folks who would rather wait 15 years to take a quality bull in a great conditions (low competition, lots of opportunity) than battle an army on four wheelers to maybe shoot a certified pisscutter. So we end up where we are.
So what is the answer? I believe these are a few of the keys:
- Slowly increase the number of mature bull tags till age objectives are reached. Spike hunts ruin LE units. If you don't believe me, I would gladly trade a North Cache tag for a San Juan tag. Deal?
- The Forest Service needs to manage their rangeland. They need to stop playing hacky sack and get out of their trucks and monitor the range as a whole. When an area is nearing the minimum required to support game, yank the sheep and cattle off.
- Sheep need to be managed closely. Their maximum numbers in a group should be cut by 75%. 5000 sheep in a single band is several times the total herd objective in many units. They decimate rangeland. Break them into smaller groups and keep them moving--they are just wandering around looking for a place to die anyway.
- Predators--don't shoot coyotes, they eat a lot of mice and they might kill a sheep. OK, I had to put that in.
These steps could allow a healthy increase in herd numbers and a subsequent increase in adult bull tags.
After all this BS, I'll make a couple of disclaimers:
- I am a cattleman, but I don't have grazing leases on public land.
- I have a piece of paper that says I'm a biologist from the same institution of higher learning that many of the DWR folks attended. Those pieces of paper may come in handy in a pinch if you have to go in the woods, but they aren't worth a lot more.
I'll probably reread this tomorrow and realize that I was too tired to be writing a diatribe. Let me know what you think.
Hazmat
First of all, my biggest beef is regarding deer. The DWR has no business issuing ANY doe tags when our deer herds are in dire straits--then again its all about BUSINE$$. Gotta sell those tags to pay the bills. We should be closing some areas to all hunting for a few years to rebuild our deer herds--or importing a bunch of whitetails so we have a robust deer herd. (Not my choice, but where we may end up.) I would like the DWR deer management team to start managing the mosquito population near my house. If they had the same success they have with deer, my BBQ would be a lot more comfortable.
On elk, the DWR manages for bull/cow ratio and total herd numbers. Unlike deer management, the DWR has done a great job building the best quality elk herd in the country. I think many of us are very hesitant to see a shift in management strategy--we've see too many catastrophes in the past.
So where does the DWR come up with herd objective numbers? Is it from carrying capacity? Biological principals like you point out? No way. They try to keep as many animals as they can on a unit. What constrains how many animals a given area can sustain? Feed? Winter range? Water? Winter kill? Predation? That's what we would all like to believe, but the reality is that sheepmen and cattlemen largely determine how many elk are on a unit. They scream loudest and are a major part of the rural economy--thus the local legislators support them (as they should). (San Juan County Commissioner Lynn Stevens said "There is not a county commissioner in rural Utah that favors an increase in elk..." (San Juan Record Sept. 12, 07)) Legislators lean on the DWR and RAC to keep numbers down. DWR capitulates and the DWR issues a pile of cow tags to keep the herd at their objective. This puts the bull/cow ratio out of wack. The DWR tries to increase bull tags, but there are a bunch of us unenlightened folks who would rather wait 15 years to take a quality bull in a great conditions (low competition, lots of opportunity) than battle an army on four wheelers to maybe shoot a certified pisscutter. So we end up where we are.
So what is the answer? I believe these are a few of the keys:
- Slowly increase the number of mature bull tags till age objectives are reached. Spike hunts ruin LE units. If you don't believe me, I would gladly trade a North Cache tag for a San Juan tag. Deal?
- The Forest Service needs to manage their rangeland. They need to stop playing hacky sack and get out of their trucks and monitor the range as a whole. When an area is nearing the minimum required to support game, yank the sheep and cattle off.
- Sheep need to be managed closely. Their maximum numbers in a group should be cut by 75%. 5000 sheep in a single band is several times the total herd objective in many units. They decimate rangeland. Break them into smaller groups and keep them moving--they are just wandering around looking for a place to die anyway.
- Predators--don't shoot coyotes, they eat a lot of mice and they might kill a sheep. OK, I had to put that in.
These steps could allow a healthy increase in herd numbers and a subsequent increase in adult bull tags.
After all this BS, I'll make a couple of disclaimers:
- I am a cattleman, but I don't have grazing leases on public land.
- I have a piece of paper that says I'm a biologist from the same institution of higher learning that many of the DWR folks attended. Those pieces of paper may come in handy in a pinch if you have to go in the woods, but they aren't worth a lot more.
I'll probably reread this tomorrow and realize that I was too tired to be writing a diatribe. Let me know what you think.
Hazmat
Daxter
Very Active Member
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Hazmat,
You pretty much nailed it on a ton of the issues. I personally don't think we should ever kill does, except in extreme cases. Unit objectives for elk are a function of tolerance, rather than biology. How many elk are cattlemen willing to tolerate? Federal land management agencies are an oxymoron, because everybody knows they sure as heck don't do much to manage federal lands. Some would, but their hands are tied by things like NEPA, and SUWA. Frustrating situation, and with elk managment, unfortunately things are going to get worse before they get better.
Dax
You pretty much nailed it on a ton of the issues. I personally don't think we should ever kill does, except in extreme cases. Unit objectives for elk are a function of tolerance, rather than biology. How many elk are cattlemen willing to tolerate? Federal land management agencies are an oxymoron, because everybody knows they sure as heck don't do much to manage federal lands. Some would, but their hands are tied by things like NEPA, and SUWA. Frustrating situation, and with elk managment, unfortunately things are going to get worse before they get better.
Dax
