DWR Stupidity on antlerless elk hunt

cantkillathing

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-08 AT 11:47AM (MST)[p]Okay here is some great news if you drew a LE San Juan elk tag and waited 12 + years to finally draw here is something that will make you happy, The DWR is issuing 50 + cow permits to be hunted during your hunt on the North elk, great idea, more hunters to screw your Once In a Lifetime hunt up for you. Oh this is the early rifle hunt that it will screw up, 9/13-9/23

How many other units have to put up with this?
 
You had me scared that they would mess up archery as well. It will be bad enough that a bunch of people will be in there scouting. Things should be good and stirred up.
 
not one bit surprised its not as good as opening the grouse hunt right at the same time as the LE bull hunts though thats just awesome getting in on a stud bull and having some tard thats probably my neighbor blow it on a trophy blue grouse two hundred yards away. the lack of thought from some ppl in the division is laughable
 
speakin of antlerless i just looked up the numbers and pretty much dumped down both legs! 1400+ tags on the wasatch and surrounding areas i dont think that there will be an elk left thats pretty bad. its gonna kill the unit just like it did bout eight years ago it was a slaughter fest that took five years for the elk to rebound. killin cows is not the solution to population control but i guess that the division sees it as the only viable option since the bulls are off limits no matter what
 
I am with you Berry! The number of cows killed on the Wasatch is unbelievable.
The quality of bulls and the numbers of Elk are really going to suffer over the course of the next few years.

I really do not think that 50 cow tags on the San Juan is going to screw up your hunt that much. I bet I dealt with 100 people just out looking around last year on the Dutton.
 
berryblaster, killing cows is the ONLY way to control elk populations. Killing bulls only affects bull:cow ratios, not overall popualtion numbers. If they are issuing 1400 tags, they either are at/over herd oblective numbers and/or have deperdation issues.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
According to the population numbers posted by the DWR, the population objective for the Wasatch unit is 5050 elk, they state the current population is 5450 elk, 400 OVER objective. With 55:100 calf:cow ratios, that means around 1550 new calves are recruited into the herd each year, with at least half being females. So, just to maintain current population numbers around 800 cows need to be harvested each year, PLUS the 400 'excess' elk on the unit. That means to reach population objectives, which is a state MANDATE, 1200 cows need to be harvested. By issuing 1400 tags they will STILL be over population objectives.

I agree that some of the antlerless tags issued this year are puzzling, but the Wasatch tags make sense per the numbers issued by the DWR, which could be off/flawed.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Pro no offense but you find me 5400 elk on the wasatch and ill give you a medal im on that unit every day of my life and you know who i am so you know thats a fact. now im not arguein that there are alot of bulls on the unit because thats obvious but the division did this in the 99-02 years and it killed off the herd till last year that was the first time i saw a significant rebound. now if ya count the elk that are on private ground, the cwmu's above heber and other areas that hunters cant access then we might find that many elk might but those elk arent accesable to the cow tags so what happens they decimate the huntable population and use the excuse that they counted that many elk on the winter ranges sorry i just am completely against cow hunts because your killing alot more than one elk and hampering the future herds for years to come i really wish the division would talk to the sportsman that are in the hills and seeing the animals rather than make counts and assumptions based on the total number of elk not the number of huntable animals. A friend of the family who was in the division told me once that the division makes decisions just like a pendulum swings they go to far one way and have to let it rebound the other for a while. $mowgli$
 
THEY NEED TO LEAVE THE COWS ALONE AND TAKE MORE BULLS DOWN THERE. (THAT UNIT REALLY NEEDS TO BE HELPED AS BULL TO COW RATIO GOES) JUST MY 2 CENTS FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH!

BUGLEMN
 
blaster, no offense taken. Look at my last sentence is post #6, "but the Wasatch tags make sense per the numbers issued by the DWR, which could be off/flawed." I made sure to leave myself an out with the "off/flawed" tag line.;-)

I know I get slammed be a few here on having too much faith in the DWR, but I do NOT believe they intentionally 'ruin' herds. It is not an exact science, in that it is hard to get accurate counts and hard to predict exact harvest numbers. Way too many variables involved. Your referrence to making decisions that cause pendulum like swings is exactly why the DWR has been slow to increase bull tags, to prevent this kind of result on bull numbers. I think for the most part, when the DWR is allowed to use their 'science', they do good work, but there is a lot of politics involved in the process.

I agree 100% on people who spend many, many hours in the field have a better feel than many/most 'experts', but there needs to be a balance between the two, IMHO.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Berries-
Keep in mind the Wasatch unit also encompasses the entire Wasatch Front from the point of the mountain in Draper, all of American Fork Canyon, clear to Park City, everything across Provo and up into Hobble Creek.....and all of the country up in your neck of the woods.

Although that 5000+ count sounds high,
(but only because i spend my time in the Strawberry valley)......i wouldn't be surprised if it were pretty dang close.







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do i smell a division slamming, utards cant do anything right post? haha all we need is bessie to chime in and i think that it will be considered exactly that ;-). Buglemn that is exactly right the prob is what bulls do ya kill the mature already in place bulls? or the spikes? or the management bulls in the late season hunts or maybe all of them? personally and this is just me i think that ya leave the mature bulls in place, and work on the up and comers. forget the spike hunts and open up a spike to five point bull hunt. ya your gonna have problems with accidental sixs bein shot but what this does, is open up an immense number of tags and should increase revenue due to a much greater population that you can hunt. Based on numbers the division should be able to allocate a proper number of tags to keep the ratios in check for years to come. will there need to be cow hunts yes. but not 1400 cow slaughter fests. now all of those intelligent individuals that know a whole lot more than me about elk chime in and poke holes in my idea so i know where my thinkin is wrong. :)
$mowgli$
 
slam your right and my uncles monster stinky is gonna come from somewhere in that neck of the woods. if we are lucky :) but that includes ski resorts and a lot of private ground that we cant hunt and doesnt get managed because of that. also you have to look at where the elk are bein taken and its in the strawberry valley and surrounding areas everytime. btw when ya gonna show me some of these hunny holes? browtines gotta be gettin ansy and i gotta hunt down a couple stinkys for some friends and clients so its bout time we got out isnt it? $mowgli$
 
>According to the population numbers posted
>by the DWR, the population
>objective for the Wasatch unit
>is 5050 elk, they state
>the current population is 5450
>elk,


i am curious when they got these numbers they had it posted on there website before the winter was half way threw that they were going to put out more tags. as well as they mentioned it on roughin it outdoors in late november.as bad as a winter that we had i know it impacted the herds more than they expected. not just on the wasatch but all over. everybody knows road kill was real bad this year. then you have the ones that died from starvation,old age,predators,etc believe me the cougs and coyotes ate good this year.they had there minds set on these numbers a long time ago and i think it will come back to bight us in the you now what in a couple of units. i do love what they did with the utah deer herds this year though just wish they would not have bumped the elk as much in some areas.
 
"i am curious when they got these numbers they had it posted on there website before the winter was half way threw that they were going to put out more tags. as well as they mentioned it on roughin it outdoors in late november.as bad as a winter that we had i know it impacted the herds more than they expected. not just on the wasatch but all over. everybody knows road kill was real bad this year. then you have the ones that died from starvation,old age,predators,etc believe me the cougs and coyotes ate good this year.they had there minds set on these numbers a long time ago and i think it will come back to bight us in the you now what in a couple of units. i do love what they did with the utah deer herds this year though just wish they would not have bumped the elk as much in some areas."

These numbers where posted in late March, not November. But, is it hard to believe they would have an idea what the population is from counts the year before?

The winter had little/no impact on elk populations on the Wasatch. What would be the purpose of 'over-harvest' of elk on a given unit? Would that not cause teh DWR to LOSE money in the long run? Do you really think these folks/the Wildlife Board are that incompetent?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Doesn't the DWR HAVE to manage the herds in Utah based on winter range? Don't all the private and public elk end up sharing that range for the most part? The CWMU's that I'm familiar with have to base their antlerless tags on that winter range as well and the public does get most of those tags. In Utah we keep taking away winter range and wanting more animals to hunt. It won't work that way.
 
Bird no the division bases tags off of bull to cow ratios and general population goals on the unit. not the winter range and pro is right the winter did not hurt the elk much on the unit thank goodness cause it would have been a nail in the coffin for the cows this year.
Bury me in the hills so i can fertilize the grass and grow bigger animals for the rest of ya
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-08 AT 04:54PM (MST)[p]Berries-
Yes you are right, this end of the Wasatch is ski resorts and a lot of private, but the elk still exist and have to be counted.

MY concern however is just like yours.

I'd say that 75% if not more are going to hunt the strawberry valley to take the 1400 cows, it's going to be a blood bath and will do little or nothing for the other areas within that huge unit that also have ratios out of whack.

Too bad they don't make the cow units smaller and more "area sensative"......not too mention out of the way of the regular bull hunts.

We could go up just about anytime now Berries, i'm all but caught up from antlerfest skull work and the snow is probably gone up high.....keep me posted and we'll plan an excursion!! :)






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Don't you think the general population goals have something to do with winter range? I agree the state should divide up the big units for cows. They do that to a degree here in Cache Valley but it is on the late hunts so they are actually hitting specific winter range.
 
Birdblaster-
I always thought the winter range had something to do with herd size numbers as well, but i could be wrong.....but you'd definately think so!

I know that's where they take their sensus.
They fly over winter ranges and start taking pictures, then blowing up the pix later and start the bean counting, i have actually helped in a count before.

Any insight to this pro, ole' buddy??
BTW-
I hope that 380" bull you saw get lit up like a christmas tree by lightening wasn't your hawg for this year!! ;-)






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i think the winter had some effect everywhere maybe not the wasatch as bad as cache or other places.but it did effect it harsher winters mean less animals survive period. while coyote hunting in those neck of the woods this winter i seen plenty of road kill and weak/dead animals. drove provo canyon for work everyday there were some weak animals up there as well.however i think the dwr has done a great job with our elk herds over the past 10 years and well i guess i just have to trust them on this one.
 
It would be interesting to see what jim from awholelottabull has to say on this subject. how bout it jim ya got an opinion on this ever wonderful topic of how nothing the division does is right? ;-)

Bury me in the hills so i can fertilize the grass and grow bigger animals for the rest of ya
 
Jim don't know nuttin, he doesn't even know where the hell the Wasatch even is!!

BLAH!!!!!!!!!!!! LOl ;-)





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well thats a possibility but i always figured jim for an intelligent individual kinda like pro. Pro dont know how to kill big elk but he sure does know how to count real good ;-)

Bury me in the hills so i can fertilize the grass and grow bigger animals for the rest of ya
 
Good thing the DWR does not issue 1,400 tags good on the whole Wasatch Unit. They issue 30 good for a small area around Alpine and 80 for a small area around Wallsburg and 20 for a small area west of Heber and 200 for Diamond Fork, etc. It isn't that 1,400 people can show up on the face above Springville to shoot every cow. The specific areas within the Wasatch get a specified number of tags.

I think many people would be surprised at how many elk there are on a unit as large as the Wasatch. Lots of guys know parts of the unit very well, but I doubt anyone of us has knowledge of every nook and cranny of public lands. Start at Lambs and go south thru the Cottonwoods, over into AF, Timp, Squaw Peak, down into Hobble Creek, up through Diamond Fork, Back thru the Number Waters, Down to Strawberry, back into the Strawberry Ridge, out thru Currant Creek to Duchesne and back to Tabby Mtn, then back thru Woodland and all that private lands to Heber, then back up into Park City and end up at Lambs. That doesn't even cover the middle grounds of Wallsburg, South Fork, Cascade, Wasatch Mtn Park, etc and I forget if it covers the Avintaquin, Horse Ridge, Indian Canyon, and Red Creek.

The DWR does not manage cow numbers on bull to cow ratios. They try to get more bulls killed every year, but the idea is shot down by the Board. So in April, the DWR must kill a certain number of elk to get down to the herd objective. The only tags they can issue are cow tags. So they figure we need 1,000 cows killed. Well the success rate is only 70% so they have to issue 1,400 tags to get those 1,000 cows killed.

I do tend to agree with the private lands herds getting a free pass, while killing a larger portion of the public lands herds. That is a tricky issue, which could be alleviated by giving public lands tags and private lands tags. That was long enough.

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www.sagebasin.com
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packout very well written post as usual personally i think im pretty familiar with the majority of the unit with the exception of the woodland area ive hunted it all and scout it every year and honestly i cant say im seein 5400 elk on the unit. my specialty is the strawberry valley waters diamond fork cascade springs wallsburg little valley area and reservation ridge which is basically the extended version of strawberry ridge i know currant creek like the back of my hand including the low pass road the backside all the way to bandana ranch tabby mountain and the unholy canyons surrounding trout creek. i didnt look and see that they had divided the cows up so that was my mistake but i still am firmly against killing 1400 cows no matter what the circumstances true success rates arent a hundred percent. a large number of cows will be killed which hurts the future of the herd no matter how ya look at it and thats tough for me to swallow this is my back yard and i want it to be the best one in the neighborhood i guess just like anyone else and the unit the live on so i will have to swallow my medicine and live with the way things are.

Bury me in the hills so i can fertilize the grass and grow bigger animals for the rest of ya
 
Berry, I see your point and agree that there should be concern in some cases. Just remember, they are issuing 1,400 tags, and with a 60-70% success rate there will be 800-1,000 cows killed (not including the hood-ornaments). That probably doesn't make you feel any better. Best of luck this Fall with your hunts, should be a banner year for antler growth. (Judging by what I have seen.)

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www.sagebasin.com
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Well said, as usual Packout. On the issue of population objectives. The numbers are based MOSTLY on winter range counts. What determines population objectives for the most part is winter ranges and how many animals can be sustained on an 'average' winter. Summer range capacities are a non-issue on 90+% of the elk herd populations, the objectives are set based on carrying capacity on winter range and deperdation damages. Summer range is a factor, but not on the level winter range and deperdation is.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
wow, we got off topic there, I understand the frustration of the cow tags on the wasatch, but are any of the hunts right in the middle of you LE Bull elk hunt? Now that is my frustration with the cow hunt on the san juan, if we are in on a good bull and all of a sudden some one starts shooting away and spooks the elk trying to fill their cow tag, this sucks period, they did not think this one through very well.
We might as well have a doe hunt during the LE buck deer tags as well.
 
Sorry boys......"sweet 16" birthdays in Vegas and family reunion time has put me way behind on the important stuff!:D

I'm with you berryblaster and slam. I just don't see those numbers. For example, where I hunt on the CWMU area in the NE part of the unit, there were not that many cows on the winter range. I don't see that many cows on the unit during the hunt. The bulls are there but the cows aren't. It has been a long time since I've seen a bull sporting the old 30 cow herd. I see a lot of single bulls during the hunt as well. Granted, I don't hunt the north end of the unit (AF Canyon, west Heber Valley) but I pretty much travel the unit otherwise. I do agree with slam in that the majority of the hunters focus on the Strawberry valley from Main Canyon south to Willow Springs. I think this has the very real potential of destroying what we have worked so hard to maintain. I don't mind the increase in bull tags because that's evident there are plenty of bulls to support that but I totally disagree with the current number of cow tags alotted for destruction.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Can't - Yes! There are hunts that compete with LE hunts on the Wasatch, Manti, Manti Nebo etc. You boys that have been hunting places like the San Juan, SW Desert, Pav., etc. have been spoiled, especially the LE rifle hunters. When you draw a LE archery tag on the Wasatch for example, you start the same time all of the spike and cow hunters start as well as the grouse hunters (like berryblaster stated above) and archery deer hunters. Talk about competition for you OIL hunt. I completely sympathize with you. Putting a cow hunt in the middle of a PREMIUM LE rifle tag is a joke at best. I'm pretty sure that they could have found a different time for that hunt. Say, one of the other 48 weeks it's not hunted.:D

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
The Springville area now has 180 cow tags. 90 early, and 90 late.
I have watched most of this herd on it's winter ground over the last 15 years. It seemed to peak about 5 years ago, and the cows have been on a steady decline since.
180 cows killed in that area seems crazy!
I do not care how you count, it looks like someone got it wrong.
 
Thanks Jim figured you would have something to say on that and cantkill sorry bout the off topic bit. dont feel like your the only one snubbed on this though two years ago we had a client on a 390+ seven by eight monster got into his herd we were surrounded by cows waitin for a shot to present itself and three grouse hunters opened up about 150 yards away and ended that. to say the least we were a little perturbed about the situation. and packout why if private land elk cant be managed should the tag numbers reflect there being on the mountain? it seems very unfair and extremely political. don't worry i'm not that naive but its nice to bring this up and let every one see what they are dealing with when tag numbers come out.

Bury me in the hills so i can fertilize the grass and grow bigger animals for the rest of ya
 
packout said-

"Good thing the DWR does not issue 1,400 tags good on the whole Wasatch Unit. They issue 30 good for a small area around Alpine and 80 for a small area around Wallsburg and 20 for a small area west of Heber and 200 for Diamond Fork, etc. It isn't that 1,400 people can show up on the face above Springville to shoot every cow. The specific areas within the Wasatch get a specified number of tags."

This is right, i forgot they alotted certain tag numbers within an area......that's makes more sense and is a more comforting thought to say the least.

Also-

"I do tend to agree with the private lands herds getting a free pass, while killing a larger portion of the public lands herds. That is a tricky issue, which could be alleviated by giving public lands tags and private lands tags. That was long enough."

I work on a few top notch CWMU's and trust me......we do kill a lot of cows to "micro manage" the herds on our properties, we simply have too.






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Ya said the magic words Slam micro manage. haha thats the real trick though one canyon has 150 cows in it the next has 15 how do you justify killing 50 cows in the one when 2 miles away there are none? Its killing the habitat? what about the sheep and cattle that destory the habitat? The elk will die from over pop.? last time i checked elk can run and alot faster than me ;-) so i figure if they are hungry they will make it to the next canyon. i guess its just a hit and miss deal but it all comes down to over all they are gonna kill 800-1000 cows on a unit that doesnt have that many cows to spare in the opinions of those that are on it every day. when ya figure the amount of calves those elk could have had how badly is the herd going to suffer in the coming years? hopefully im wrong and the division is right on this but judging from experience its not looking good. bulls are still down low slam went out last night and everything was in the cedars and oaks course i cant get high so i dunno whats up at the top yet

Bury me in the hills so i can fertilize the grass and grow bigger animals for the rest of ya
 
By the way berryblaster (sorry to jump the thread again) but how's that Marina short stack cookin up there. I usually stop in there and feast after a morning of scouting. I will make sure to say hello.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
And i want to know how the potgut population is looking up there right now, i have a hot new .204 that needs broke in!!

Jim-

A good potgut hunt is worthy of a short stack to start it off right, aint it??

Ok ok....i'll take the tall stack!!! Lol








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Jim its always good the burgers an artery choker still and breakfast is always amazing me slam and browtine are gonna hook up soon give us a holler and you can let us in on a few of your hunny holes. we might have a few you could use as well

and slam there are no pot guts ;-) i killed them all haha and plus the up and comers i might be able to find a couple i missed and let ya know about them tho the soldier creek flats were infested this spring and a few yotes and foxes as well

Bury me in the hills so i can fertilize the grass and grow bigger animals for the rest of ya
 
Pro,
I want to review your math a little, tell me what I am missing, and what is wrong with my thinking (I am truly interested)

5450 Total Elk
If there is a 40/100 bull to cow ratio that means:
2180 Bulls
3270 Cows.

If the cow to calf ratio is: 55/100, Then there are:

1798 breeding Cows.

The FG is giving out 1400 tags at a %70 success rate, so we will kill 980 cows. I submit that the majority of those killed will be the producing cows and not calves. This leaves the Wasatch with:

818 breeding cows plus the new cows that are coming into the herd based on the 1798 current cow population. so about 500 new cows.

Then next year we will have:

818 + 500 or 1318 breeding cows. That is down over 400 cows.

I do not believe there are 5450 elk on the unit, but even if there are, 1400 cow tags is TOO HIGH. It is not going to take long to create a problem.
 
glad some one can do math on here i was just goin with it was too many haha

Bury me in the hills so i can fertilize the grass and grow bigger animals for the rest of ya
 
Kick your shoes off Berries and get the popcorn out, these numbers games are always fun!!

I got a headache trying to even read it!!








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Slam,

If Pro does not come up with the same numbers or just say:
"that is too many cows"
I think you should refuse to help him on the Dutton, we all know you are the one making 380 a Slam Dunk.
 
Geez Slam,
I did not realize you were that easy. I would have given you a shirt and pants to help haul mine out...lol
 
Bowhunt,

The part you are missing is that the DWR does not issue cow tags, they issue antleress tags therefore the huntable population would be 3270 minimum. Now there may be additional antlerless bulls dependant upon the 40 percent figure and if that is antlered bulls or mature bulls.
IMO though, we are missing the point of harvest. The only reason the DWR issues this number of antlerless tags is because we refuse to let them issue bull tags. Yes you are right within this scheme of managment you are working with the law of dimininshing returns. Therefore Utah's current harvest management strategy is doomed to fail without change. We have hashed this over for years on MM, not going there again.

To the basis of this thread I do not feel sorry for those who will be competing with cow hunters. First off it has happened to many methods and areas for years. Second I believe the tag is issued for the opportunity to hunt, not to guarantee harvest or score. It is too bad in Utah that elk hunting has become an expectation of a trophy kill rather than an opportunity to pursue one of natures most formidable foes as it was in the past.
 
Bowhunt i on the other hand am very easy lol ;-)

Bury me in the hills so i can fertilize the grass and grow bigger animals for the rest of ya
 
One thing we have to keep in mind is that these antlerless tags, no matter what qty are issued, are split up by "area" with a region.

So not all 1400 or so will come out of the easiest accessed and most hunted areas.










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Isn't this site called "MonsterMuleys"? Let's just shoot all those stinking elk and see if our deer herds come back. hahaha

Berry- Do you have a big moose in the dining room?

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www.sagebasin.com
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Slam, and Berry,
So I need to take both of you hunting: One for ease and one for the low price. lol.

Packout,
That is the point I am trying to make, killing cows to get to objective is bad medicine. You can see how it will doom the herd, no cows, no new elk. We have to kill more bulls, sucks but is true.
Hey I hunt Idaho every year last year during my hunt I competed with: Muzz Deer, Muzz Bull, Rifle Cow hunt, and a Premium Deer hunt. I do not feel bad at all for those that have other things going on.
 
Let me help bowhunt with his math. I am sure your intentions are true, but your math is not! Here is where you are off:

Bull:cow ratios do NOT include calves, so the correct math is 40 bulls and 55 calves for every 100 cows. Using the total population of 5450 and 40:100 bull:cow ratio and 55:100 calf:cow ratio it looks like this:

1117 branch antlered bulls
1537 calves
2796 breeding age cows

That is a minimum of 769 new cows recruited into the herd each year, adding in the population being OVER objective, which is against state law, killing 980 cows (70% success rate of 1400 tags) during the upcoming season sounds right on track. And, when you factor in that the 1400 tags are NOT issued unit wide, but "micro-managed" into three sub-units, over harvest risks are minimal.

On a side note, these numbers show that to maintain the 40:100 bull cow ratio the same number of bulls need to be harvested. Or, just to keep the number of bulls at/near 1117, 770 bulls need to be killed this fall, this includes spikes.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
>Ok Slam,
>You cannot go help him.

}>

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Good math Pro, thanks!
I still think 1400 cows on this unit is too many. I guess I am particularly puzzled by the 180 in Hobble Creek. I would have guessed that to be 40% of the total cows.
Oh well, get scouting! and keep us up to date on your findings.
 
Absolutely jim its hot and greasy and as for the need to kill 770 bulls this year im sure gonna do my part with a spiker and he will be just as tasty as last years ;-) btw packout sent ya a pm

Bury me in the hills so i can fertilize the grass and grow bigger animals for the rest of ya
 
Berryblaster- just read your post here and agree with your assessment concerning elk on private land that is included in the counts. At the May Central Region RAC meeting I tried to reason with the biologist concerning elk counts on some units. The Wasatch must have some of the same problems--e.g. Animals on private lands that are not accessible to most hunters. The Nebo has a problem with that very thing. The DWR says there are a certain number of animals counted, but the real numbers of AVAILABLE elk are probably only 70 -80% of that number because of the number of animals that are on private lands- some of which allow NO hunting and are complaining about depredation problems. The private land owners have every right to post their land, but I believe that the counted herd numbers should reflect only the amount of animals available to the hunting public - not those on private lands. Let the private landowners manage their own elk and deal with the problems if they are not allowing hunters on their land to help alleviate the depredation problems. If the herd objective is 1500 animals then just count the ones on PUBLIC lands open to elk hunting. Why should we pay for elk management on lands that we are unable to access ? the private landowners can do what they want with the elk. Lets manage the herds that are available to us to hunt- whether they are on public lands or on cooperative private lands
 
One problem I see with that Nebo is that where animals on winter range is what counts. If a segment of the herd is on private land during the fall, but is on public land in the winter, it is an issue that MUST be dealt with. However, I agree that landowners need to be taken into account for BOTH overall objective numbers and harvest objectives. And, if a landowner is unwilling to let hunters harvest animals they should NOT be compensated for deperdation costs.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah
 
The East Heber unit on the wasatch deals with this very same problem becasue a huge portion of that unit is tied up in CWMU's. I am not sure if it was intentional or not or due to another reason, but I am glad there are very few cow tags in that area this year, and it was removed from the wastach west region which it was included in last year.
 

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