No wonder why NM has a poaching problem

LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-05 AT 05:42PM (MST)[p]Sounds like the G&F did their part. I'd say the courts dropped the ball. Now we can marvel at the combination of poor prosecution and a bleeding heart judge.
 
He got off easy,,, In Wyoming your are better off robbing a bank or shooting someone then taking a deer out of season. That same crime here would of cost a least $5000 and loss of hunting for 5 years and some jail time.

WB
 
It seems to me that the game commission should be getting tougher poaching laws passed. The judges have to work within the limits of the laws that already exist. Higher minimum fines need to be placed.
 
I don't for a minute agree with poaching. But let's look at some examples. Say the judge throws the book at a poacher. $5,000 fine, 30 days in jail, and loss of hunting privileges for five years. Maybe the truck and weapon even gets confiscated. Any smart poacher will be using a $1,500 p.o.s. truck just in case he gets caught. Also, he would use a bow or crossbow instead of a gun so there are no additional mandatory federal firearms violations. Say another $300-$400 for the bow. A poacher probably gets away with it for a few times before he gets caught, unless he's just unlucky.

So worst case scenario, the total penalty to a poacher is possibly $7,000, 30 days in jail (add any lost wages) and a loss of hunting rights for 5 years.

Compare that to legitimate hunting. Purchased elk tags are going for $20,000+ in many areas. If you get lucky enough to draw a premium tag your looking at an average of 10 years of applying before drawing, many guys don't want to waste that tag so they hire a guide for $5,000. Then they are on a five year wait in Utah before they can even begin to apply again.

Could it be possible to say that with the direction hunting is headed some people might see it as economically feasible to poach? Are we headed to the old times where public land is considered the kings land, and the kings animals. For only the privileged few. Peasants stay out.

In any case I think it's fair to say the rule of SUPPLY AND DEMAND is biting most of us in the @$$ when it comes to hunting.

Don't get me wrong here I don't poach, I've turned people in whenever I witnessed it. I'm just trying to compare the penalties of breaking the law as opposed to playing by the rules.
 
I'm no expert of NM law however from what I gather from the artical the judge had it within his ability to at least impose a fine of $1,500 and seize the weapon used to take the animal. Instead the judge slapped him w/the rifle seizure, community service, and a lousy $250 fine. Even min/mandatory sentancing laws won't fix it all. If they reach a plea deal w/the prosecutor before the judge sees it then the punishment can still be minimal depending on the particulars of the plea deal. And if you have an elected prosecutor that wants another term they like plea deals to keep their "convition" rates high.
 
MrBaitnFish, very well said. Its sad but true. Poaching will always be. I don't have the answer. I think in most mens eyes a little spank is as affective as a all out getting the royal screw. I don't think this NM man would do it again. And justice was served. I hope I'm wrong but these are "hunting violations" are not planned serial bombings. Its easy to disagree if you have never been accused of a wildlife violation, But run into the cocky game warden once, the one that will find something wrong with your outfit and you may agree.

WB
 
Wyomingben,
I agree for most people the humiliation would stop them from doing this a second time, and a lot of violations happen in the heat of the moment. However, I think there is a mentality of a few, that do this pre-meditated, and intentionally. I would think the 80/20 rule probably could apply here, meaning 20% of the people are guilty of 80% of the violations committed.
 
+Wyomingben-

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.

So, what are you saying, that the game warden had something to do with this? Is there another part of the story? According to the printed information, the guy poached a deer, plain and simple, according to the evidence presented in court.

In my humble opinion the game warden has a perfect right to get as cocky as he wants if he legitimately catches a poacher. He's helping all of us, except for the poachers that is.

It seems to me as if there was at least ONE part of this guy's "outfit" that was illegal...it was carrying a poached deer.

Now, as for the sentence....please tell me you're joking "justice was served". $250 fine and a few days cleaning up highways? Worth risking for a 37" mule deer rack? I'd take a wild guess that it's likely there are lots of folks who would gladly take that risk, based on what I see out there and what I read in the newspaper/Web, when they can sell the rack later for several thousand $$. Maybe I'm missing something but if a guy risks that once, and gets this kind of "punishment" (that's stretching the meaning of the word), he'd do it again in a heartbeat. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if this is rampant in NM, and usually the "men" don't get caught.

Wouldn't you agree, there's something BAD WRONG with this justice system?
 
No wyomingben may be right. I would agree that there are some wardens who will do anything to F you over. Most wont. I have been told that I could not wear camo while hunting along with a friend. He was bowhunting I was in camo tagging along. Had it out with the warden that I was not hunting, I was observing. He made me sit there while he followed our footprints to make sure I didn't leave a weapon in the bushes. 2 Hours for what, wearing camo?? I know a lot of people that have been screwed. One guy accidentally shot and hit two mountain goats. He came home told his wife and she suggested to turn himself in. He didn't leave them in the field. Could have gotten away with it but did the right thing. What'd he get, a felony. Cant hunt or own a gun the rest of his life. How's that for fair. His wife feels horrible now that she urged him to do so. Honest accident. Know somebody else that put a deer out of its misery that had just been hit by a car. Warden showed up and wrote him a ticket for killing a deer out of season even though everyone there knew it'd been hit by the car. Apparently you cant touch them until the game warden arrives. In the most part most are pretty decent but there can be some exceptions. Guess it can be bad both ways. Game wardens have more search power than any law enforcement in the U.S. Cops have to obtain a search warrant not wardens. I'm not bashing the game and fish but they have faults just like any other agency.
sneakem
 
I live in Aztec. It really made me angry about the sentece. It is true about the poaching that goes on.

I hope that my letter to the editor will make it in.

I will post it when I am finished with it.
 
Utah men plead guilty to hunt violations

By the Salt Lake Star-Tribune staff

November 30, 2004

GREEN RIVER -- Two Utah residents came to Wyoming in late October to kill a large buck mule deer and put a Utah tag on the animal. They got busted instead.

Wyoming Game and Fish Department law enforcement officials said Ogden residents Scott E. Day and Daniel R. Flowers recently pleaded guilty to taking an antlered deer during a closed season or without a license, and taking wildlife with the use of artificial light. In Wyoming, take includes the "intent" to take.

Wardens Jim Olson and Neil Hymas made the arrest after Olson observed the men hunting deer near Sawtooth Mountain, east of the Crawford Mountains in southwest Wyoming.

"The best part of this case is that legal Wyoming deer hunters did not have to lose a trophy buck deer in order to get a conviction," Olson said. "I have no doubt that numerous deer were saved for legal hunters during future Wyoming seasons."

He said previous surveillance indicated the vehicle might have been associated with two Utah family groups the agency suspected of hunting deer in Wyoming after the season was closed.

The men were observed on Oct. 30 continuously raising their rifles to search for deer through the scope and then using their headlights to find deer in the dark. When questioned by game wardens, the men initially claimed they were hunting for coyotes.

Lincoln County Circuit Judge Frank Zebre sentenced Flowers and Day to serve six days each in the Lincoln County Jail. Both men were fined $5,260 and had their hunting and fishing privileges suspended for six years in the 19 Wildlife Violator Compact states, which include Utah and Wyoming.


--------------------


I don't like my post earlier, I meant that poaching and "hunting Season Violations" should be seperate. A man how shoots a trophy Buck in April and a man who shoots a cow moose instead of a cow elk by mistake should not be given the same ticket "taking an animal out of season". The laws for hunters making a mistake are way out of line and it looks like the poaching laws in NM are way to easy. A lot of Game Wardens will give as many tickets he can to justify his job and let the Judge sort it out. But I'm sorry, at least in Wyoming when it comes to wildlife violations, you are GUILTY untill proven otherwise, .....sad but true.


WB
 
Both men were fined $5,260 and had their hunting and fishing privileges suspended for six years in the 19 Wildlife Violator Compact states, which include Utah and Wyoming.


I'm not saying poaching is ok or I would ever poach. Poaching is wrong and should be punished! However this one deer cost these men

$10,520.00
12 years of not hunting in the west
12 days in jail

Now if there guys where kids, not much money, thought they could get away with it, found out they could not. I swear a $500 fine for both would of streightend them right up.


Getting a DUI would suck but I never heard of a first offence that had this kind of punishment.


I'm sorry but a first offence should get a spank, but not a life changing punishment.

WB
 
YA

LETS JUST GIVE FIRST OFFENDERS SAY A 10.00 FINE,THAT WILL MAKE EM THINK BEFORE THEY DO IT AGAIN,YA,RIGHT!!!

WB

THINK ABOUT IT A LITTLE BIT,UNDER YOUR THINKING,YOU'D HAVE THOUSANDS OF IDIOTS RUNNING AROUND POACHING,THINKING,OH,I HAVEN'T EVEN GOT MY FIRST SPANKING YET,I'LL JUST KEEP CHANCING IT TILL I GET CAUGHT THE FIRST TIME,WHAT THE HELL IT'S JUST A SPANKING ON THE FIRST OFFENSE!!!

YOU KNOW THAT ROUND THING THAT SITS ATOP YOUR SHOULDERS,USE IT FOR WHAT IT WAS PUT THERE FOR!!!(THINK BEFORE YOU ACT!!!)

MAYBE YOU DON'T LIVE WHERE THERE ARE ALOT OF POACHERS,I DON'T KNOW???,HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT THESE POACHING IDIOTS ARE STEALING FROM YOUR KIDS???YOU WOULDN'T LET IDIOTS STEAL YOUR KIDS CHRISTMAS PRESENTS WOULD YOU???MAYBE YOU DON'T HAVE KIDS AND HAVE NEVER THOUGHT INTO THE FUTURE THAT FAR???

NO OFFENSE WB BUT THE BEST SHIRT I EVER SEEN WAS ON A GUY FROM WYOMING AND IT SAID:"STUPID PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BREED"!!!

DO YOU REALLY THINK THE POACHING JOKERS MENTIONED ABOVE WAS THEIR FIRST TIME OF BREAKING BIG GAME LAWS???

WAKE THE HELL UP AMERICA AND SEE THE LIGHT!!!

IF YOU GAVE THEM JUST A SPANKING IT WOULD BE KINDA LIKE THE IDIOTS DRIVING AROUND WITH ANYWHERE FROM 3 TO 20 DUI'S ON THERE RECORD AND STILL DRIVING,DON'T TELL ME ITS NOT BECAUSE THE COURTS & LAW OFFICIALS HAVEN'T TURNED IT INTO A MONEY DEAL KNOWING THEY WILL CATCH THEM AGAIN AND THE MORE THEY CATCH THEM THE MORE MONEY IT WILL GENERATE,BUT I GUESS THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT ENDANGERING OTHER PEOPLES LIVES,INNOCENT LIVES!!!

ENOUGH SAID!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHEN THIS WORLD IS GONNA WAKE THE HELL UP???
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-05 AT 08:32AM (MST)[p]there have damn sure been tougher sentences handed out, but the small fine is making people think less of it. 323 hours of CS is a bunch. thats over 8 40 hour weeks. now if this guy's got a job, and has to do this community service on his days off, how many weekends is that. depending on what they have him do for his CS time, its something he'll remeber longer than writing a check. i would love to see more of this on wealthy criminals. picture this-some rich fellow from back east comes out west and gets cuaght poaching. sure you can give him a 10k fine. he'll write a check and forget about it. give him a 100$ fine and 250 hours of community service. in the state where he commited the crime. its still gonna cost him some bucks getting back and forth, but he'll remember it forever.
 
September 9, 2004

'Serial poacher' gets two years in prison

By KATHLEEN A. SCHULTZ, Great Falls Tribune

A lifelong poacher who claims to be "addicted to wildlife" was sentenced Wednesday to five years with the Department of Corrections, three suspended, and ordered to pay more than $18,000 in fines and restitution.

This is the third felony conviction for Gary Roger Motarie, 41, 524? 21st Ave. N.E., who agreed earlier this year to plead guilty to possessing unlawfully taken wildlife.

In exchange for his guilty plea, the state dropped 14 other misdemeanors and declined to label him a persistent felony offender.

Motarie, a paralegal who also has a lengthy misdemeanor history of illegal hunting and fishing (prompting one warden to dub him a "serial poacher"), took the stand Wednesday and blamed that history on a compulsion he said began in his childhood.

"I have a wildlife addiction," Motarie told District Judge Julie Macek. "I feel my wildlife addiction is like a drug addict, with drugs," he said.

Motarie said he is being counseled for his alleged illness, but Deputy Cascade County Attorney Marty Judnich was quick to point out that Motarie's therapist refused to testify on his behalf.

It's not an addiction, "it's pure greed," Judnich said. "He likes poaching. That's why his counselor's not here to testify for him."

He also pointed out that Motarie's compunction appears to be selective -- he only poaches the best animals in the state's most restricted areas.

"In the hunting world, he commits the biggest offense you can," the prosecutor said.

A few minutes later, Motarie vehemently protested Judnich's request that he forfeit all his game mounts and related items.

Despite his claim that he is "making a real effort to quit," "is finding other activities to do" and is "learning to enjoy (himself) without hunting," Motarie told Macek he believed he "deserved" to keep anything he said was legally taken.

Macek said that, according to statute, she didn't think she could force Motarie to forfeit anything the state couldn't prove was ill-gotten.

And although Judnich had requested she levy a $35,000 fine, Macek reluctantly ruled that the law prevented her from fining Motarie more than he could pay back during the term of his sentence.

Given his financial situation -- Motarie said he has more than $80,000 in debt -- Macek set the fine at $15,000. As an "incentive" for him to stay out of trouble with the law for the next six years, she suspended $5,000 of that.

The $3,100 in restitution Motarie must pay will go to the state department of Fish, Wildlife & Parks, as will the game mounts. The forfeitures will be used for public education and to fund the (800) TIP-MONT anti-poaching hotline.

Motarie also was sentenced Wednesday to six months, suspended, for improper transfer of a hunting license and for hunting while his privileges were revoked.

That extra year will run consecutively to the five-year DOC commitment, and to another Glacier County sentence he is serving. All told, Motarie will be under the department's supervision for at least the next 12 years.

How Motarie will serve the two years of Macek's sentence that were not suspended -- in prerelease, under intensive supervision or in prison -- will be up to DOC officials.

Or it may become a moot point, at least for a while:

In November 2002, Motarie killed a trophy elk in the Sun River Wildlife Management Area northwest of Augusta. The Cut Bank newspaper ran a photo of him with the animal, and local residents turned him in.

He was fined $8,000 for killing a trophy animal, ordered to pay $1,000 in restitution and lost his hunting privileges for 20 years.

But before he decided to plead guilty, Motarie threatened a witness and a game warden slated to testify against him. In January 2003, he was sentenced to two concurrent six-year terms in Montana State Prison, all time suspended, for witness tampering and intimidation.

Wednesday's conviction is likely to trigger a revocation of that suspension, which means Motarie could be ordered to serve his six years in Deer Lodge.

A hearing on the matter will be held Sept. 22, Glacier County Attorney Larry Epstein said Wednesday.

Motarie's recent troubles began on Feb. 28, when Fish, Wildlife & Parks Warden Bryan Golie spotted him and a friend illegally night-fishing the Missouri, near Cascade.

In March, Justice of the Peace Sam Harris took a look at his record, then took away Motarie's hunting and fishing rights for life, fined him $2,500 and sentenced him to three concurrent six-month jail terms for fishing while revoked, unlawful possession of brown trout and fishing with four poles in a one-pole area, all misdemeanors.

But after his arrest, Motarie's fishing buddy, Brett McMurphey, told game officials that Motarie had used his wife's license to shoot a bear, an elk and three deer during the 2003 hunting season, and had still had the meat and mounts to prove it.

A search of Motarie's Cut Bank home led to the District Court charges.

Because of his cooperation, McMurphey was given a deferred prosecution. He stayed out of trouble for six months, so his two misdemeanor charges were dismissed in April.

_________________________________________________



THERE ARE SERIAL POACHERS AND SERIAL DRUNK DRIVERS.
SOME PEOPLE WILL NEVER LEARN. NO MATTER WHAT THE PUNISHMENT.


$50,000 HAS THE SAME VALUE AS $500 TO SOME MEN.


I don't believe a man should be locked away for years over a mistake like shooting a deer, driving drunk or shooting from a road.

99% of people who just end up in court with a wildlife violation will learn and never do it again. 1% will never stop.


I don't know any poachers but I know a couple peaple ~

One spent 2 YEARS in the joint for stealing a used engine out of a junk yard when he was 19. (2YEARS!) He is now ##### up for life I'm afraid.

One is sitting in jail right now for having sex with a miner, (not rape) he is looking at 5 to 10 years. He has always been a dumb ass, but wouldn't hurt a flee (IS 5 YEARS IN THE BIG HOUSE GOING TO HELP ANYTHING????)))

Both of these guys would of learned very well with a week of comunity service and a $500 fine.


Our Prisons are overflowing with criminals. We just can't seem to lock people away for long enough.


This poacher in NM to get this lite of a punishment must of really convinced the judge that it was truly a one time mistake and it would not happen again. From what I read I do believe justice was done. Does everyone with a "taking a deer out of season" need a $5000 fine and no hunting for 6 years and a week or two in jail? A few really do and some a week of community service would fix them right up big time.



It's sad a big deer got poached. Poaching will always be. More Big deer get hit on the highway, people drive to fast, thats sad. Even more big deer die from winter kill, there is not enough winter range, thats even more sad.


I respect everyone's opinion, even BOBCAT's :) I find myself going back and forth. Putting myself in the shoes of the guy getting charged I try to seek a punishment that would stop me from breaking the law again, just the humilieation of going to court would stop me personally of breaking any law I can think of.

I had run in's with some very cocky game wardens, the ones who should not be in law inforcement. I had run in's with some very nice and fair game wardens. I travel half way across the state to hunt an area that the "good guys" patrol. I don't want to hunt the area close to home with good game,just because of the local game warden has a reputation of being such a prick. Thats sad.

That's probably the reason for my bitter tone in the thread and also I'm bored as hell this time a year.

WB
 
This one is easy!!!. Just make poaching a felony then legally the convict can't purchase ANY firearms...If he's habitual then eventually he'll get his third felony and go to prison...
 
Wyomingben,

I would agree with you that there are some guys that get too hard of punishments but there are way too many people that don't take enough responsibility for their own actions. Guys that complain about the F&G (or other government agency) treating them or their friends unfairly are almost always not telling us all of the story. I would bet if we knew the full truth on these cases we would be taking the F&G side on almost every incident.

Those guys from Utah that went to Wyoming to poach got exactly what the deserved. I don't have any sympathy for guys that poach for horns. If they have time to drive to another state to poach at night then they have time to get a second job and work at night to pay their fines. Even if a $500 fine had been enough to stop them from poaching it still wouldn't have been fair to the people they were trying to steal from. Would $500 from each of them covered the court costs and the time the Wyoming G&F wasted on them? I would also bet that this wasn?t their first spot lighting trip to Wyoming. If the fine for poaching is only $500, it is much cheaper than playing by the rules. Considering that most poachers don't get caught, poaching can be a real bargain if you don't have a conscience.

I would also disagree with your quote.

?99% of people who just end up in court with a wildlife violation will learn and never do it again. 1% will never stop.?

A whole lot more than 1% of the guys that end up in court for a wildlife violation have been to court in the past for wildlife violations. Why are there so many repeat offenders? I think it is partially because they just got a slap on the wrist the first time. People that have already made a habit out of committing certain wildlife violations don't stop doing them if they just get slapped on the wrist. These people just become more difficult to catch.

The guy that mistook a cow moose for an elk did get a pretty tough fine but I don't really feel bad for him. He should be able to tell the difference between an elk and a moose. People are killed by idiots that pull the trigger before they properly identify their target. If he had turned himself in instead of wasting a lot of the G&F time (which = a lot of $$$) I'm sure he would have had a much lighter sentence.

As far as DUIs go I think first time offenders should get their drivers license taken away for a year. Everyone that is driving while intoxicated knows what they are doing is wrong and knows that they could kill an innocent person as a result. They just don't care.

323 hours of community service isn't just a slap on the wrist. I know several guys that would rather pay a $10,000 fine than do 323 of community service. I still think his fine should have been 10 or 20 times the $250 but I'd hope that the judge that sentenced him knew more about this case than guys on an internet forum.


Wyomingben don't take this post as an attack toward you and I do think you have brought up some very good point, I just disagree with some of them. I would agree with you that those two guys that you mentioned probably aren't better off after spending time in prison but I don't think giving them a slap on the wrist would have straightened them out either.
 
WB

I WOULD OF NEVER THOUGHT I'D GET RESPECT!!!

THATS GOT TO BE THE FIRST RESPECT I'VE EVER GOT HERE AT MM LAND!!!

CAN I SUGGEST MAKING THE POACHERS DRESSING UP IN PINK & WHITE STRIPES TO DO THEIR COMMUNITY SERVICES AND BROADCASTING IT WORLD WIDE ON NATIONAL TV FOR WEEKS???

THERE GOES WHAT LITTLE BIT OF RESPECT I EVER HAD,IT DIDN'T LAST LONG!!!

I'M YET TO SEE A MULE DEER BUCK IN THE AREA THAT WOULD BE WORTH LOSING MY OLD RUSTY WORE OUT BEAT TO HELL HUNTING RIG,MY GUN WITH 25 YEARS WORTH OF SCRATCHES & ABUSE,MY HUNTING PRIVELIDGES FOR 5 YEARS,A BIG OLD FINE,YA SEE MY GEAR AIN'T WORTH MUCH BUT I'D LIKE TO GO HUNTING NEXT YEAR,I JUST COULDN'T SURVIVE WITHOUT HUNTING,I DON'T KNOW ANYWHERE I COULD BEAT A TRUCK TO PIECES & SPEND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS EACH YEAR AND TO DO IT IN AN AREA WHERE THERE AIN'T A CHANCE IN HELL TO TAKE A RECORD BOOK BUCK,I'D GO INTO WITHDRAWLS THAT I KNOW AIN'T CURABLE!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WAITING TO HUNT THE SAME OLD HIGHLY COVETED REGION AGAIN,& AGAIN,& AGAIN!!!
 
Penalties should be stiff enough not so a person won't do it again, but stiff enough to never consider it ever!
 

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