JUDGING OTHER PEOPLE

B

bullmania

Guest
I have heard a lot of controversy on this site about others purchasing auction tags or Landowner tags.

I purchased an auction tag this year in Utah as i did not want to wait 10 years to draw a tag . and while i am physically able i wanted to experience the awesome elk hunting that Utah has to offer.

I hired a first class guide and have saved for years to go on this hunt.

First of all i come from a working class family and have worked hard all my life to stay ahead.

I have been very blessed financially over the last several years to be able to save and become financially independent.

I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth and have never inherited a dime.

I simply do not understand others judging someone without walking in there shoes.

Be careful judging other people when you dont know there character or heart.

My wish for all of you is that all your dreams financially will come true.

We live in the best country in the world ,the USA and i believe it is a LAND OF OPPORTUNITY.

Bullmania
 
JUST KEEP RUBBIN IT IN!!!

AND I'LL KEEP PISSCUTTIN TILL I GET LUCKY!!!

WHAT TAG YOU GOT???

AND WHICH GUIDE DID YOU HIRE???

GOOD LUCK!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Bulllmania...you are set for a first class experience and I hope you enjoy every minute of your time in the hills.
 
I hope you get a bull of a lifetime. Enjoy the hunt and remember that money can't buy your health, so do as much as you can while you can.
 
Bull, it seems to be an ongoing thing here on mm. Ill tell you straight up if i had the money i would buy the utah gov deer tag in a heart beat! i love hunting and i would love to have the best tag in the state for a chance at a deer i only dream about! and because i own my own business I can Buy a auction tag and it is a write-off. I cant afford it yet but in the near future i will find a way. for those that piss and moan who cares! most the people that bag on it cant afford it and if they could they would do the same thing.
There are also people that are disgusted with people that hunt on private property. they seem to think that the only real deer is a public land deer. Well, i hunt on both and a big buck on private is just as hard to kill as a big one on public. I dont know maybe private land bucks dont have eyes and ears and a sence of smell? oh i know... just shake the grain bucket. ya right.

Personally if i can afford a great tag like the one you have i will do it. Im about due in the points game but i want to hunt an LE unit more than once and im willing to pay the price.

In closing i will say... most people are CLOSED MINDED They only see it there way! Everyone has there way and that is fine with me. just dont bring someone down because someone else does it different


I really could of said one sentence instead of this whole spill... people are just jealous!
 
HEY BULL!!!

I HATE TO INTERUPT THIS LE HUNT!!!

BUT AWLB HAS SCHEDULED A PARTY OPENING DAY OF YOUR HUNT!!!

THERES GONNA BE ALOT OF BULLS,I MEAN BULL GOING DOWN!!!

NOBODY WILL BE IN ANY SHAPE FOR THE SECOND DAY OF SEASON EITHER!!!

OH WELL!!!

BY THE THIRD DAY YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET A PISSCUTTER!!!

((( }> }> }> }> }> }> !!! )))

I SAID GOOD LUCK!!!

BUT I'M TAKING IT BACK!!!

WITH AWLB THERES GONNA BE ALOT OF SKILL INVOLVED!!!

GOOD LUCK!!!

WE HOPE TO SEE SOME BLOOD & GUTS!!!

AND A NICE RACK!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Bull - you and I will have plenty of time around the fire in September to talk about this whole "auction tag" thing. It really boils down to what onedryboot said (and you said to Kacie on the other forum)....Jealousy!! I would just about bet that 90% of hunters, giving the funds, would buy a tag in a heartbeat. There are a lot of other issues that have come up in the past with auction tags. Believe me when I tell you, and you will soon find out, it's still a hunt. We (you and I) will work for any bull you put on the ground. Sorry to tell you, I have never been lucky enough to shoot a good animal out of the truck. I'm not even sure I could shoot a prarie dog out in Bessy's country out of the truck. I would probably have to walk 2 miles to get one.

Oh yah, if I can keep Bessy out of the beer keg there may be enough left over for a toast after your kill.:D


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Bobcatbess,
We are going to have a party after we take care of business.


Thanks
Bull
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-08 AT 11:26AM (MST)[p]AWLB,
I wouldnt have it any other way , its hunting and we are going to have to work for the opportunity,but location in hunting to me is at least 50% of the hunt.

You cant harvest a 370 bull if they are not there and i have been on hunts where the animals just were not on that ranch or piece of the forest .

Thanks and i will see you in a few weeks.

Bull
 
Logslinger
You are exactly right.

I spoke with an elderly gentlemen a while back about hunting and his number one regret is that he didnt do more of it while he could physically.


Thanks
Bullmania
 
Bull and Wholelota,

I really do not think people that are opposed to Tags for Sale, are Jealous, or thinking the buyer is lazy and a slob.

Most people that are opposed are concerned that OUR game is going to the highest bidder. People get concerned that the trend will continue. Eventually ending hunting for most people. I am concerned with it, I do not want my kids to have to bid on tags, or spend a fortune to hunt.

I am also in a position to be able to buy some tags, so my comments certainly have nothing to do with jealousy.

So when asking people to not judge those that buy tags, make sure you do not judge those that are opposed to it.
 
Very good point bowhunt,

Good luck to you bullmania! You are about to enjoy the hunt of a lifetime! Jim will take good care of you! If I could hire a guide it would be him!

As for the tags, it is not the theory most people are opposed too. Most want more habitat conservation etc. What most are opposed to is the ugly side of "party guiding" kill at any cost type hunting that occasionally goes on here in Utah. I would buy any and all tags if I could afford to do so. No doubt about that. I personally would like to see a reduction in these type permits to allow a few more for the general draw.

Good luck and post pic's when he hits the dirt!

Chad
 
Bowhunt:

That is a great post.

Like others, I have been very financially fortunate. I love this country and the business opportunities it provided me.

I have always worried that hunting opportunity being a function of wealth could become a problem for hunting. After all, it is a publicly held resource, held in trust for all citizens, not just those of us meeting certain financial criteria.

I find myself in a dilema. Last winter, I attended a national conservation banquet where governor's tags were being auctioned. One was going for less than 40% of the price it brought the previous year. I bid on it, to get the action going. No one else bid, and I ended up with it. Gulp!

Now I am sitting on this tag, and am torn between the great oppotunity it presents and the fact that it is my favorite species to hunt, but have daily pangs of guilt that I was able to move to the front of the line as a result of my financial resources.

Growing up dirt poor, I would not have become a hunter if it would have cost even $2 per day. There are others in this country, in the same shoes I was in, and as much as I rationalize the fact that my money will be used for conservation, I find myself asking this question:

Is the money I paid a big enough conservation benefit to offset the detriment of others feeling disenchanted with hunting as they see their loss of hunting opportunity, or the privlege being granted to others based on financial resources?

One of the key principles of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, the model that has built our hunting opportunties to what we have today, is the principle of "Democratic Allocation" of hunting opportunity. In other words, the mere fact of your citizenship/residency gave you hunting opportunity, no greater or less than your fellow citizens, regardless of finances. B&C has some great info on the history of this model.

Outfitters quickly find out who holds these statewide tags, and your mailbox is filled with offers. I am an "On Your Own" kind of guy, so the outfitter solicitations go in the trash. For those who hire outfitters for auction tags, I completely understand, but it is not for me.

I am glad this discussion is taking place. I certainly don't fault or judge those who save and purchase these type of tags, whether annually, or once in their life.

I do question "state policies" the have created an industry that revolves around providing special hunting opportunity to those with financial resources, and the outfitters who have built business models around such. These folks are only responding to state policies. Therefore, it is the policy that I take issue with.

Policies that I find questionable. Policies that I hope provide more benefit to conservation than detriment to hunting opportunity and participation. But, I fear such is not the case.

Maybe a balance could be struck where fewer of these tags are issued, thereby allowing market scarcity to raise the price even further, and demonstrating to most hunters that a reaasonable cost-benefit relationship exists.

Or, maybe more money could be raised by raffles, rather than auctions, which some would argue is more fair in allocation of opportunity and possibly raises more money for conservation.

As I read my rambling here, it is obvious I have no answers to my dilema.

Good luck on all of your hunts, whether public draw, or otherwise. We probaby all agree that the long range future of hunting, annually creeping toward a pasttime of the financially fortunate, is not good for hunting, or hunters, whether rich, poor, or somewhere in between.

Happy Hunting!

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
Really good responses. It really is a more complicated issue than mere jealousy. Big Fin spelled it out about as well as Ive ever read.
 
EASY AWLB!!!

I SAID!!!

I WON'T BE DRINKING!!!

UNLESS YOU WANNA SEE ME FIGHT???

MIGHT BE A GOOD THING THOUGH!!!

I COULD FIGHT FOR THE GUN!!!

I WANNA PULL THE TRIGGER!!!

AND BY THE WAY!!!

I STOPPED BY TO SEE YOUR BROTHER TODAY!!!

THAT BOY KNOWS HOW TO TAKE A LUNCH BREAK!!!

DIDN'T SHOW BACK UP FROM HIS NOONER & I HAD TO LEAVE!!!

MAYBE NEXT TIME!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
BigFin,
You could always donate the tag, (*cough*to me*cough*cough*) and be free from any sort of bad vibes!

4678aec03a21ae00.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-08 AT 05:15PM (MST)[p]Thanks Guys !!! awesome responses !!
I agree on everyone havING AN OPINION.

JUST THINK ABOUT OTHERS BEFORE YOU JUDGE THEM


Bulmania
 
SHHHHHHHHH....don't look now but I think we have formed the very first civilized thread when it comes to discussing "conservation tags".

I didn't mean to make it sound like jealosy is the sole demon behind the negative attitudes towards conservation tags. I think that Silentstalker makes a good point as well as others. I too am a dad with kids that love to hunt and I would sure hate to see it come to the only way you can hunt and take a trophy animal is if you pay big money for it. I am caught in the middle of this one because on one hand, I personally can't afford an auction tag but I have guided hunters on these tags that have turned out to be part of our family (as I'm sure bullmania will be when it's all over with). I value those experiences as much as I do my own personaly hunting experiences. There are several arguments against these tags and believe me, 90% of the concerns I share with you. They are a great thing for conservation but at the same time, they absolutely need to be monitored closely. I really do appreciate finally reading a post on conservation tags that is civil. It makes it so much easier to understand the "other side" of things when they are presented in a non-argumentative way.

BigFin - don't you dare feel guilty about that tag. I don't know how much you paid for that tag nor do I care. I do know that our habitat and big game hunting is better because of people like you and bullmania. Get out there and kill a bruiser so we can see what our money is going for!:D


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
The auction permit money has done more to further hunting and ensure that your kids will have the opportunity to hunt than all the auction permit haters put together. I guarantee it.
What has any of the anti auction permit crowd done to sustain and further wildlife?? Lets hear it.






---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO YOUR OWN OPINION....EVEN IF ITS WRONG!

Just jokin. Congrats on a hunt that will probably be a life event. Hope to see a whopper in a few months.

I think its a defective human personality trait that causes this jealousy thing....I've seen it just about everywhere I have been. Hunting, fishing, skiing, espcially at work where others try to get ahead while the jealous try to hold them down.

Again, good luck and live the dream!

Mark
 
BigFin,
this thread was a growth off of the previous thread about the supposed difference in perception betwenn those with raffle tags and those with auction tags. There have been some great responses on here including yours, where where you earlier?
 
Is there any evidence of raffles bringing in as much money as the auctions? Or at least shows the difference if not equal? If close I would think that the raffle process would be the fairest way to do it,especially when there is just a few tags being raffled. When there are as many as Utah allocates, I don't think raffles would bring in as much. What do u guys think?
 
>BigFin,
>this thread was a growth off
>of the previous thread about
>the supposed difference in perception
>betwenn those with raffle tags
>and those with auction tags.
>There have been some great
>responses on here including yours,
>where where you earlier?

Where was I? Probably having one of those guilt twinges. Seriously, I had read that thread and stared to post, but just didn't think I had anything of value to contribute at the time.

With a few exceptions, I like how this thread has stayed civil and thought provoking, providing perspectives that I may not have previously considered.

I hope it stays that way, but lets face it, this topic, along with a few other volatile topics, can only stay sane for so long.

Happy Hunting!

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
I have a guy who bought a 25000 dollar tag just to have us guide him again this year he knows he isnt gonna best his greatest bull ever a 402 giant. He wants to have fun and is willing to spend the money to do so. especially when it goes to enhance hunting in general. For those that think that they buy these tags to kill another monster, you are wrong. guys buy these tags because they love to hunt and have the ability to do so more than the average person. lucky buggers im glad that they would rather spend it on a fair chase bull that will help others in the future then goin and buyin a monster 400+ farm bull they could do that and for cheaper probably! thats what real hunters do!

Wildlife population control specialist
 
Very classy post.

The money you spent on the tag is going to help the herds. No reason to feel any twinge of guilt IMO.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-08 AT 08:31AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-08 AT 08:17?AM (MST)

and all I'm saving for is a new tranny in my huntin truck.
I'll be huntin in the company truck this year.
my wife spends faster then i can make it.
next board meeting I'm voting myself a raise. my son works for me and is third year apprentice and makes 89 cents more a hour than i do. my journeymen make 14 buck a hour more.
last time we gave everyone a raise but ourselves. company is doing better now.
we have noticed a slow down in jobs to bid here in Wyoming.
I'm afraid the economy is slowing down. we have all the work we can handle now but the future is questionable.
was easier to work for than to own a company and more profitable. if i wasn't on salary I'd be making 42buck instead of 28 bucks a hour and wouldn't have a extra 100,000 in debt.
yep i love being a business owner.
don't let this fool you though if i could i would be buying a governors tag here but would sure like to have my truck.
I'm not jealous over folks with money I'm jealous about the ones who's wives don't spend it all.
 
I hate to bring this up, but most EVERYTHING in this world is designed and directed at "the money". Period.

Those folks that are opposed to auction tags or landowner tags are hypocrits.

They are the same people who build custom homes for major bucks, but would never consider building homes for low income units at half the profit. Doctors, Lawyers, CEO's....pick 'em. They work for money, where the money is.

They want to live in the best neighborhood they can afford, send their kids to the best schools, etc, etc, etc,....but let someone who can afford the best hunting opportunity around, buy a tag and all of a sudden, it's all wrong.

This is no new issue. Remember Sherwood Forest.
 
How much of the auction money really reaches the benifit of the animals. Or does most of it line pockets. Please explain. Tell me all of the good things that money has been used for (I dont know.) Use facts not just hear say. WHAT GOOD THINGS DO THEY BRING BESIDES BENIFIT POCKETS OF THE ALL MIGHTY OUTFITTER AND DON PEAY.
 
I personally feel just because you have money in your pocket, you should not get a chance at a tag where as the poor folk cannot compete. Why not buy the tag at a high price and give it to someone who could use a hand. Take a guy that works his tail off everday, never has a vacation, and still lives in a two bedroom trailer home and supports his family. Only people with money shouldn't be able to get those tags. To me, it just isn't right. Turn it into a donation tag or something for handicap hunters or hard working americans that are getting hammered who deserve a vacation. Then take the money and put it towards wildlife. Just an opinion. Sounds fair to me. I'm not poor, actually doing good and the whole thing seems wrong to me anyway. Hunting is going to become a rich mans sport before we know it.
"I shoot at wolves, I don't dance with them." :)
Stands With A Fist
 
Good post bowhuntwitharifle. Why stop there? Lets all convert to communism. Give everything we make to the goverment and get back only what we need to live. Then everything will be equal and you all can stop your bitchin because life isn't fair.
If I hear "hunting is going to be a rich mans sport" one more time I'm gonna puke!!! It dosent cost anymore for a hunting permit than a trip with the family to the lake or a round of golf. You can take anything to any extreme you like, if you have the money.
I remeber two things my dad always told me. #1 you can do and be anything you want. #2 life isn't fair. You know what, he was right.

DRYMOUNTAIN, the money allocations for these permits are posted on the Fish and game website along with the projects funded and costs. Look it up.



---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
HEY NUNYA???

"HUNTING IS GOING TO BE A RICH MANS SPORT"!!!

DID YOU PUKE YET???

HE-HE...!!!

HOW MAMY YEARS DID IT TAKE YOU TO FIGURE OUT YOUR DAD WAS RIGHT???

JUST RAZZIN YA!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!
47654abd5a8fd79a.jpg


469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-08 AT 06:28PM (MST)[p]Hello Bullmania,
No one with the means to buy one of those tags owes an apology to anyone!

The fact is we ALL have the opportunity to succeed in this country if we have the drive, the brains, and the luck.

This "debate" is not about the poor vs. the rich. It is about the hunting traditions and opportunities, that most of us grew up with, slowly being taken away! As the demand for a limited resource increases, the people with the most means are able to influence the allocation of that resource.

After reading all of the posts so far on this subject, it seems to me that we are all missing the point.

The wildlife in this country belongs to the people, not the landowner. Because of that premise, the opportunities to pursue that wildlife should remain open to EVERYONE EQUALLY!

When I started hunting over forty years ago, I remember reading about how it was to hunt in most of Europe. Only the very wealthy, or the guests of the very wealthy could hunt. There was almost zero opportunity for the "working man" and the tradition has faded away. I remember believing that we would never see those same conditions prevail here.

In my lifetime, I have watched hunting go from a family tradition, where schools were closed for the opening week of deer season, and all tags and licenses were purchased at the hardware store OVER THE COUNTER to all tags now being allocated by drawing. Those good old days are gone!

Of course, I am only speaking for myself when I say this.

I DON'T MIND THAT SOME FOLKS CAN AFFORD TO BUY TAGS THAT MOST OF US CANNOT. WHAT I DO MIND IS THE FACT THAT, AS CITIZENS, THOSE TAGS BELONG TO US ALL, AND WE SHOULD ALL HAVE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO OBTAIN THEM.

As more and more opportunities go to "max bonus/ preference points", raffles, auctions, landowner vouchers, trespass fee areas, etc..., there are less and less opportunities to hunt at all.

Elkchaser
 
+1 NUNYA




""Why not buy the tag at a high price and give it to someone who could use a hand. Take a guy that works his tail off everday, never has a vacation, and still lives in a two bedroom trailer home and supports his family"".

Hmmm...

Most People With Money Have Worked There Tail Off and started out in a TWO bedroom trailer TO Get Where There At!!!! I bet most of them worked hard to get ahead to support there family, they didnt have time to enjoy vacations and all that good stuff . and now they have the time and the money why would they buy it and give it to someone else?? They have earned it and they deserve it!
 
Bull
I wish I was in your shoes, The only thing I would do different is buy my Cold weather Underarmour before the hunt. LMAO

I think you got a pretty good guide, just try and keep him focused on killing a big Bull at least a 210" class wall hanger.LOL
 
Good post elkchaser. Every year they get more and more tags. When will it quit.
 
Bullmania-

I am a little late getting on this post, but i'll toss in my .02.

You and i have PM'd back and forth quite a bit about hunts and outfitters, don't worry about what others think or say about buying a hunt or hiring an outfitter, you simply have that luxury and there aint a damn thing wrong with it.

I'll tell you what, you did good by getting that tag and having Jim (AWLB) help make your hunt as successful as possible, top notch tag with a top notch outfitter, what a combo, you'll be in great hands.

Even if you don't kill the bull of your dreams, your going to have the hunt of a lifetime due to the elk country you'll be hunting in, and the friends you'll make on your hunt....you can't put a price on that.

The best of luck to you Bullmania!! ;-)






48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Elkchaser - I agree with a lot of what you said in your post. I too grew up in the "good 'ol days" when school was closed and you could walk down to the local hardware store and purchase your hunting and fishing license for $12. My dad and I talk about it all the time. It has definately changed. My dad and his brothers will be the first to admit that the "good 'ol days" are the reason we are at the point we are at. Unlimited tags, rapid growth in rural areas, the value of land skyrocketing to the point the farmer can't afford NOT to sell critical winter range. I look at old family hunting photos from many different families and it was very seldom that you didn't shoot your deer in those days. I think at that point in our hunting careers it seemed that the deer were an unlimited resource, something that would be around forever. The elk were practically non-existant. I am not one to readily give up my hunting opportunities but I will give up my opportunity to assure that my kids have theirs. I know that these auction and landowner tags are a touchy subject with some and I really do understand the concerns. Like I said in my previous post, I share some of those same concerns. I just don't see how our license fees can put the kind of money on the ground that these auction tags do. Our general license purchases would go up 1000% to cover the cost of what moneys are gained from the auction tags. Then there will be people that can't even afford to hunt the general season. That concerns me because I have kids that love to hunt and I live on a limited budget too. For those that wonder if the money actually makes it on the ground....just drive down I-15 near Filmore and Cove Fort and see the reseading and chaining projects directly funded by sportsmans groups for deer and elk winter range. It's impressive. I noticed that there are the same type of projects up Highway 6 just past the old Sheep Creek Cafe. I have seen the Vernon projects for reseading and restoring the natural grasses that were taken over by all of the Cedar tree infestations. If we as the paying public could fund such projects in mass I would be all for that. I'm just not ready to make the jump to that because I've seen what big money can do for wildlife. I will give you this though, I believe there are enough of those tags out there now and we really don't need anymore. I would be for increasing the number of "raffle" tags. Those seam to give the average Joe an equal shot at a great tag. I don't have all the answers. I don't even profess to have a lot of answers. I do know what I have seen and been able to be a part of. By belonging to, and supporting a few conservation groups my family has learned what it takes to preserve our hunting heritage. Believe me when I say they have the utmost respect for the animals they hunt and the tags they are able to hunt them with. I didn't have that knowlege growing up and it has taken me many years to realize what a mistake we made back in the "good 'ol days" allowing unlimited hunting. Even Teddy Roosevelt knew we were headed for disaster back in the "good 'ol days" and created the greatest animal sanctuary there is....Yellowstone National Park. We have come along way in the last 25 years and even farther in the last 5 years. There are good arguments on both sides. It all boils down to money speaks louder than words.





It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Jim,

Great post. Money does speak and we are all in it together. Even those with the money would probably be all for the raffles if the raffles could produce enough money. Do we know how much money the Utah Western Hunting show raffle produced yet? Find out that number, then add up all the monies received total for those same tags auctioned off at the various sportsman's groups and see how those compare. I would love to see a comparison. That would allow the general public to make an educated decision whether to try and push for more raffles and less auctions or not. Then put it to a vote. Probably too idealistic to think the government would allow such a simple solution without the legislatures getting their mitts involved.
 
Hello "AWHB",

Thank you for your sincerity, and your devotion to a subject that we are both very passionate about. I agree with almost everything you said and I think there is enough "common ground" that we could close the gap on the rest.

I am 100% FOR raising as much funding as possible as long as it is used to perpetuate the hunting traditions, and outdoor heritage I was blessed to recieve growing up. HOWEVER, I am not in favor of continuing to provide a few more tags, then a few more tags to the "highest bidder".

Like you, I would like to see my children, and my grandchildren, have the opportunity to continue the traditions that we were all blessed with. My fear is that, if this trend continues, those opportunities will be out of their reach.

Thank you again for your sincerity.

Elkchaser
 
Why can't they put a cap on the number of auction tags say at one per LE unit and 10% of the auction price would go towards lowering the cost of the rest of the draw tags in that unit. This might make the average joe's glad when someone pays $200,000 for a tag at auction.
 
I have really enjoyed reading all the posts on here, and I guess my take is this: You make the oppurtunity for yourself, its all out there you just have to go and get it. I grew up in a trailer in Florida, and joined the military at 18 to get out of that "lifestyle" I don't bash anyone who has more money than me, or landowners that want to be a-holes..its they're place they own it etc... I just want to earn my degree, hell i dont know if i will be a lifer in the military or not, but I WILL own a piece of property for my family and friends to hunt on. if it doesn't happen I have nobody to blame but myself....
 
I'm really glad you worked hard and all that but, I lose respect for people who use money to take cuts! Are you guilty of anything? Absolutely not, just taking advantage of a system that I think is completely unfair to the normal guy, and contrary to the North American Model of Wildlife Management.

Nick


>I have heard a lot of
>controversy on this site about
>others purchasing auction tags or
>Landowner tags.
>
>I purchased an auction tag this
>year in Utah as i
>did not want to wait
>10 years to draw a
>tag . and while i
>am physically able i wanted
>to experience the awesome elk
>hunting that Utah has to
>offer.
>
>I hired a first class guide
>and have saved for years
>to go on this hunt.
>
>
>First of all i come from
>a working class family
>and have worked hard all
>my life to stay ahead.
>
>
>I have been very blessed
>financially over the last several
>years to be able to
>save and become financially independent.
>
>
>I was not born with a
>silver spoon in my
>mouth and have never inherited
>a dime.
>
>I simply do not understand others
>judging someone without walking in
>there shoes.
>
>Be careful judging other people when
>you dont know there character
>or heart.
>
>My wish for all of
>you is that all your
>dreams financially will come true.
>
>
>We live in the best country
>in the world ,the USA
>and i believe it is
>a LAND OF OPPORTUNITY.
>
>Bullmania
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-08 AT 11:51AM (MST)[p]Heat-

I think your statement about cutting corners is unfair.

I could not count how many times i have seen MY clients need to get home (back to work) or get them to an area where they can get cell service and or do some laptop work due to their EXTREMELY busy lifestyles.

They have the luxury to buy top notch hunts and have people do the "leg work" for them, it doesn't make them any less of a "hunter" than you or I.

I have never had a client NOT work his a$$ off to get his or her animal, and they appreciate it equally as well.

I'll tell you what, if i could afford a deer hunt on the Jicarilla, i'd jump all over it and i have been guiding for 14 years.

I would "need" a guide to help me kill the animal and to show me the place, and mostly to keep me calm when i pull that trigger, that's a guides job and i'd gladly pay for that if i had the means.

Does that make ME less of a hunter??

And the statement about it being contrary to wildlife management?
EXCUSE ME??

"trophy hunters" are one of the best and most important tools there are for proper management!!








48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Interesting subject. I am confused why someone who has EARNED wealth would feel ANY guilt from doing so. I also am confused why someone else feels 'entitled' to something they didn't EARN. I am all for 'equal opportunity', but if YOU/I don't take that opportunity and do something with it, why should others suffer? Last I checked this is America, where you get what you EARN, not have it given to you by taking away from another. You want that go to Europe. Every single one of us has the SAME opportunity to buy these tags, if we CHOSE not to it is OUR fault. I decide whether or not I will work for $10.00/hour, $30.00/hour, a commission, be self employed, etc. Nobody but ME decides/limits that, to blame it on others is denying where the blame lies. The money generated by these tags PREVENTS hunting from becoming a 'rich man's sport'. The money spent by a few keeps the costs DOWN for the many, why people are so against that is beyond me. I see no reason someone who buys a 'money tag' should have an ounce of guilt, instead they should be THANKED by the masses for footing the bill and paying MORE than their share.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
Some very good posts here.

One thing that comes to my mind is that if you buy a $25K or $50K tag there is no guarantee that you will fill that tag. Buying a $500-650 general tag and not filling it is one thing. I'm not sure if it happens often but, think about not filling a $50,000 tag. OUCH!

It takes balls to lay down that kind of cash for a tag when there are no guarantees in hunting free ranging big game animals.
 
That's exactly right CS!
Money only buys "opportunity".


Here's another point to ponder.
I am very close to drawing a tag for the BEST mule deer "opportunity" there is in the country, the Henry Mountains.
And although i am a hunter by "profession", you can bet your a$$ i am inviting the best and most "qualified" people i can recruit to help me fullfill MY dream!!

Again....does this make me less of a hunter having help, whether i pay for it or not??










48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Like i said before the experiences i have had with guiding these ppl is that they dont buy the tag to kill something they buy it to hunt an animal! I have a guy who bought a 25000 dollar experience this year.

Wildlife population control specialist
 
Pro:

Since I think I was the one who mentioned guilt, I will try to explain myself further.

First, I have no guilt for my financial position. I grew up without any money. Parents divorced when I was ten, blah, blah, blah.

I decided I wanted to change my situation. Borrowed money to get a degree that I knew would make me employable. Worked my tail off for years to learn the ropes, then mortgaged everything I had, and then some, to start a business. Spent the first eight years doing nothing but working and trying to balance some family time. Huge risk, huge reward.

So don't get me wrong, I have no guilt about the rewards that came with the risk and sacrafices my wife and I chose to make. Not a path some would take, but for those who do, you know the sleepless nights, crazy hours, and risks that come with it. To me, such opportunity is a big part of what makes this the greatest country in the world.

Here is where I do still have some guilt, as much as I try to rationalize it.

Wildlife is a public resource. Held in trust by the state, for the benefit or all citizens. Until recently, it has always been allocated to citizens without regard to their economic standing. There were no short cuts to the front of the line. Now that has changed, with varying degrees among each state.

Some of us can hunt great places every year, and circumvent the draw process, if we so chose. In effect, a public resource is being allocated to us, in a manner that goes against the principles of the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation. A very important model that is how we have gotten to such a great place as we find ourselves in today. The measureable benefits of this changing trend are in question, as is any measurable deteriment to hunter participation, whether real or perception-based.

I rationalize that by paying way more than the other guy, I am helping fund conservation benefits, and help keep his costs down. Though, I have no tangible proof that such is the case.

I also rationalize that if I had not bid, someone else would have won the permit at a lower price. Regardless of who got it, or what they paid, should we have policies that give special opportunity to those with more money? I don't know the answer to that.

The question then comes as to why did my family make a large donation to Ducks Unlimited, when we didn't get allocated any special hunting opportunity? Answer - Because I care about conservation. Then, why didn't I just make the same donation on behalf of the species I will get to hunt with this tag, without strings attached? Hopefully I am demonstrating that things get confusing, quickly, at least for me.

I am not a resident of UT, and UT is the king of conservation tags. It is up to the citizens of UT to decide how they allocate their tags. As it is up to the citizens of my home state (MT) to decide how many of these tags we want, and if we want to auction or raffle them.

If someone could show me the hard numbers of what these tags generate, proof that auctions raise more than other methods (such as raffles), how it is used to improve habitat and populations, how it keeps down costs for those not in my financial position, and other measurable results, it would be a lot easier for me to make a decision on the benefits/detriments of these policies.

Not sure if I am explaining myself well, but for me, it is not the money, or possible jealousy, or anything else. It is my concern that I have participated in a process that MAY have more negative affects on hunters and their continued involvement in our sport, than the positive effects my money has had on conservation.

I will probably never know those answers, so I am growing more comfortable with my rationalizations listed above. Trust me, when that season starts next month, I will be out scouting, hunting, and having a blast, and the guilt will have passed.

Until more answers are found to these questions, and agencies and non-profits become more accountable/transparent in their use of the funds, I may keep my hands in my pocket the next time my wife says, "You can't let that permit go that low. Bid it up." and just make a donation to the cause. I just don't know.

Happy Hunting to all.

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. I to feel conservation tags are a valuable tool in enhancing wildlife and its future.

As Pro said even when you have the tags there are no Guarantees.


It is the experience to me that i look forward to.


Bullmania
 
You're Excused!!!

Listen, you're bringing up guides and clients and working hard and having to get back to whatever it is they do. It is clear to me that you took offense for absolutely no reason. You have taken on a defensive posture about guiding when guiding was not even brought up in my post.

You're not even aruing the same point I am.

Now, I am entitled to my opinion. If my opinion of a person goes down because they want to move to the front of the line to hunt because they have more money, so be it. I'm not coming on here and badmouthing anyone idividually or passing a personal judgement on anyone. Merely the concept. It is the opportunity part that I take issue with (using a public resource(wildlife) and only provinding access to the elite).

Now, to go on to your question about the North American Model of Wildlife Management. I will use part of Big Fin's reply above as my own retort, since he is an auction tag buyer and actually has every bit of credibility to answer this question. He also was very eloquent and accurate in his answer.

" Wildlife is a public resource. Held in trust by the state, for the benefit or all citizens. Until recently, it has always been allocated to citizens without regard to their economic standing. There were no short cuts to the front of the line. Now that has changed, with varying degrees among each state.

Some of us can hunt great places every year, and circumvent the draw process, if we so chose. In effect, a public resource is being allocated to us, in a manner that goes against the principles of the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation. A very important model that is how we have gotten to such a great place as we find ourselves in today. The measureable benefits of this changing trend are in question, as is any measurable deteriment to hunter participation, whether real or perception-based. "

If you still don't know what I'm talking about, watch or read Robin Hood.

Like it or not, hunting is a part of American Culture that is dying. Only allowing the most financially privalegded the opportunity to partake in the resource is only accelerating the process. Many, many states are trying to maintain hunter opportunity and hunter retention. Auction tags are absolutely NOT helping the matter.

If a guy from the country who lives off his land has to move aside to let some rich guy from the city harvest animals from his own back yard, that the farmer has no legal or financial access to, we have reached the beginning of the end of hunting as we know it.

Nick

PS - I still want my sheds mounted!;)





>LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-08
>AT 11:51?AM (MST)
>
>Heat-
>
>I think your statement about cutting
>corners is unfair.
>
>I could not count how many
>times i have seen MY
>clients need to get home
>(back to work) or get
>them to an area where
>they can get cell service
>and or do some laptop
>work due to their EXTREMELY
>busy lifestyles.
>
>They have the luxury to buy
>top notch hunts and have
>people do the "leg work"
>for them, it doesn't make
>them any less of a
>"hunter" than you or I.
>
>
>I have never had a client
>NOT work his a$$ off
>to get his or her
>animal, and they appreciate it
>equally as well.
>
>I'll tell you what, if i
>could afford a deer hunt
>on the Jicarilla, i'd jump
>all over it and i
>have been guiding for 14
>years.
>
>I would "need" a guide to
>help me kill the animal
>and to show me the
>place, and mostly to keep
>me calm when i pull
>that trigger, that's a guides
>job and i'd gladly pay
>for that if i had
>the means.
>
>Does that make ME less of
>a hunter??
>
>And the statement about it being
>contrary to wildlife management?
>EXCUSE ME??
>
>"trophy hunters" are one of the
>best and most important tools
>there are for proper management!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Don't know where that came from but I hope it was "nasty" enough for you!

Nick

>well worded slam now put on
>your eye muffs and wait
>for a nasty rebuttle ;-)
>
>
>Wildlife population control specialist
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-08
>AT 11:51?AM (MST)
>
>Heat-
>
>I think your statement about cutting
>corners is unfair.
>
>I could not count how many
>times i have seen MY
>clients need to get home
>(back to work) or get
>them to an area where
>they can get cell service
>and or do some laptop
>work due to their EXTREMELY
>busy lifestyles.
>
>They have the luxury to buy
>top notch hunts and have
>people do the "leg work"
>for them, it doesn't make
>them any less of a
>"hunter" than you or I.
>
>
>I have never had a client
>NOT work his a$$ off
>to get his or her
>animal, and they appreciate it
>equally as well.
>
>I'll tell you what, if i
>could afford a deer hunt
>on the Jicarilla, i'd jump
>all over it and i
>have been guiding for 14
>years.
>
>I would "need" a guide to
>help me kill the animal
>and to show me the
>place, and mostly to keep
>me calm when i pull
>that trigger, that's a guides
>job and i'd gladly pay
>for that if i had
>the means.
>
>Does that make ME less of
>a hunter??
>
>And the statement about it being
>contrary to wildlife management?
>EXCUSE ME??
>
>"trophy hunters" are one of the
>best and most important tools
>there are for proper management!!
>


I guess it depends on what your idea of hunting is. You said it yourself, they are paying to tag along and pull the trigger. To me that's not hunting. I don't really care of people out there want to buy someone elses skill, and be the shooter, but I am more impressed by someone that did their hunt on their own and get a nice representative of the species of animal they are hunting, as opposed to here is the best animal money can buy. The hunter that buys the tag and hunts on their own, gets my respect. To each thier own.

So can you tell me how taking the prime animal from the herd is best for overall management? Well, its best for the hunter's ego. Sure everyone wants to take the biggest rack they can. If we were more concerned with the utmost quality of the herd, we would target the less desirable critters, one horn, basket racks, etc. Don't kid yourself too much, deep down you may actually start to believe it.
 
One more thing...

This has more to do with the father bringing up three boys who can't afford to take them anymore than me not being able to afford to go hunting in Utah.

25 years ago, I bet a dad could save a weeks pay and take his whole family elk hunting and everyone would have tag. They could probably also harvest a mature bull. Now, put the same guy in the situation in Utah. He might have to save a year's salary for 1 of these 400+ auction tags to be able to harvest a mature bull, or wait the 15+ years to go, and only one person hunts.

I don't see how that can be good for our future!
 
"Good post bowhuntwitharifle. Why stop there? Lets all convert to communism. Give everything we make to the goverment and get back only what we need to live. Then everything will be equal and you all can stop your bitchin because life isn't fair.
If I hear "hunting is going to be a rich mans sport" one more time I'm gonna puke!!! It dosent cost anymore for a hunting permit than a trip with the family to the lake or a round of golf. You can take anything to any extreme you like, if you have the money.
I remeber two things my dad always told me. #1 you can do and be anything you want. #2 life isn't fair. You know what, he was right.

DRYMOUNTAIN, the money allocations for these permits are posted on the Fish and game website along with the projects funded and costs. Look it up."

Nunya,

I couldn't agree more!!!!
You are welcome at my campfire anytime. I have went on several LE hunts in the past few year. How??? By applying for the hunts. LE permits are cheap.

Anyone who wants to hunt trophy game can. I am sick and tired of listening to people piss and moan about how bad hunting is. And how its a "rich mans" sport. It can't be too hard for someone to get a second job if he or she really wants to hunt that bad (trophy hunt).

The problem is very few want to wait their turn, and sacrifice a little.
 
two very different points of view here but heat and i will not say anything else until answered, have you ever had the chance to hunt with one of these 'elite' ppl?

Wildlife population control specialist
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-08 AT 06:05PM (MST)[p]This was also a classic quote:

"As more and more opportunities go to "max bonus/ preference points", raffles, auctions, landowner vouchers, trespass fee areas, etc..., there are less and less opportunities to hunt at all."

Please tell me how good the elk hunting was in Utardville 20+
years ago when there was very few LE units???

"25 years ago, I bet a dad could save a weeks pay and take his whole family elk hunting and everyone would have tag. They could probably also harvest a mature bull. Now, put the same guy in the situation in Utah. He might have to save a year's salary for 1 of these 400+ auction tags to be able to harvest a mature bull, or wait the 15+ years to go, and only one person hunts."

You can do the same thing now. Save a weeks vacation and go hunt "pisscutters" in Colorado.
 
Nother thing look at colorado. They have enormous opportunity but quality of bull its chit! with quality comes sacrifice and desire. when desire is involved all want but only some can have. so where do you draw the line some are going to be pissed no matter what, but you cant help that. if you want opportunity for all then go to colorado and quit whining about how you have to wait in utah! As for the auction tags thats just another way to enhance the herd dont tell me it doesnt work cause last time i checked utah(king of the auction tags) has the greatest elk herd in the west the result speak for themselves!

Wildlife population control specialist
 
My answer is yes, although I have no clue how that has any bearing on our conversation.

We clearly sit on different sides of the issue here. Me convincing you that 400+ auction tags for elk is not good would probably be harder than getting the jews to get along with the arabs.

I am not for entitlement, however there is no way in heck I'm going to stand for ever letting the situation that has happened in Utah happen to my state.

I'm done!

Nick
 
If you got it spend it, if you dont stay home and B#####. this is better than watching the news
 
Then you obviously had one of a select few 'killers' that dont deserve to be hunting. there is a big difference between the two. you see all of the bad that the auction tags bring and my glass is half full. This 'situation' as you say we have here in utah is responsible for the greatest elk hunting in the world bar none! These tags arent 'pimped' solely for the enjoyment of the upper class. they are there to take ADVANTAGE of those with money who are willing and able to further develop and sustain currant hunts and hunting in general. Ultimately it all comes back to the issue of hurting a few to better a hundred and thats what is going on. the state takes a few tags from each LE unit to help the rest of the hunters in the draw pool. It keeps prices down and trophies up. it makes for a much better hunt and will continue to do so.

Wildlife population control specialist
 
Lol Nick....don't be "done" your ok man and totally entitled to your opinions, this is a discussion board. :)

My post was not intended to be directed towards the guide, it was in defense of the person who uses one.

As i have said many times before and in other similar posts, not everyone has the luxury to go out and scout, especially in a long distance hunt out of state and in areas he has never been to before, they hire us guides to HELP them out, simply put.

THEY on the other hand DO have the luxury of being able to pay for that "service" that we offer, simply put.

I guide on private leases (CWMU's) and Indian Reservations.
The landowners don't want any stranger on their property un supervised. They trust in the outfitter to take these people out and hold us accountable and responsible for the activities that take place, good ones and bad.
It's our job to take care of that land and we are trusted to do so.

Granted, i am speaking of private land hunts only, i can't speak for public land guides or hunters.
Our clients don't like to hunt public ground, and neither do i as a hunter, but they have the luxury to hunt that land so they aren't bothered and they can hunt slower and and not have to rush a kill before someone else see's their animal, that just one of the benefits of private land hunts.

Now lets talk about "management".
Most people buying "high dollar" hunts and paying for opportunities to kill "trophy" animals, that's what they want.
By doing so, this "culls" the oldest mature animals and leaves the younger ones to reach their maturity to be culled someday, but we all know that concept, i don't need to explain it.

The outfitter i work for, 99% of the time, our clients are VERY hunting educated people and experience in the field, that's what we target for "management" reasons as too keep or properties top notch trophy units.

About the 400+ auction tags i'm seeing posted, educate me, i'm not aware of a number like that????
I know Utah is the king of auction tags, but 400+??
If so, then WOW....i myself could have an issue with that! :-(

Sorry things may have felt "heated" (small pun intended, Lol).










48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
OK, Maybe I'm not done yet, but I'm close!

You keep going on and on about your clients, private land, blah blah blah...

I don't have an issue with any of that. You put words in my mouth and I think are now totally misinterpreting what I am trying to say.

In my original post, I mentioned cutting in line, or taking cuts...you know, like the bullies used to do at school, meaning getting in front of other people who have been waiting in a line longer than you.

You keep saying stuff about cutting corners. I could see how you can infer guiding as a means to "cut corners". Just remember, that was your phrase, not mine.

I don't have any issue with guides, private land, or even auction tags when used sparingly and appropriately. Here in AZ we have 3 special tags available for elk. The last one that was auctioned brought in close to $200,000 for one bull tag. That is cool in my opinion, and I'll support 3 tags, especially when two of those are raffled. I also know how much man power it takes to do these projects for wildlife and how much usually gets spent by the Departments and/or Clubs. I also know that some of the Critter Groups in our state have over $500,000 in their checkbook (that's not being spent on projects).

Now on to the number I quoted. I was misinformed on that number and admit that I was wrong. One number I did find was 359 tags for all species. That is still an awful lot, especially compared to what I am used to.

I could really care less about Utah's situation as far as I'm concerned. I'm just trying to watch out for guys that probably have no clue that any of this is even going on. I have never been to Utah, and really don't plan on hunting there anytime soon. I live in Arizona and am willing to wait in line for our elk.

Nick

PS, last time I checked I'm pretty sure the record books, you know, Boone and Crockett and Pope and Young, have just a few entries from Arizona. Start from the top; probably won't take you long to find them. Arizona's "management" seemed to work good on them.
 
Geez Bow Hunt With A Rifel, Talk About judging other people!!!! ???? He is a jerk because he has his own opinion????? i think not!!!!! thats pretty low to say!!!!
 
I have a couple comments.

Seems to me that a lot of hunters are putting too much emphasis on all the "good that the auction tags do"...and "what would we do without them?".

I'm 100% sure that Utah and every other state can do just fine without the auction tags.

Think about it...how long has Utah had all the auction tags? What is the real reason that Utah has big bulls? Is it only because of the auction tags?

What Utah has done is not frickin' rocket science. You put severe limits on the number of permits issued in ANY state and ANY hunting unit...you can and will produce large elk. Thats a fact...take a look at any LE unit in Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Arizona, New Mexico. Some of those states have very few, if any, auction permits...yet still produce bulls that are equal to any of the bulls in Utah.

I personally think that the people that should be getting thanked are the generations before us that have brought wildlife back to what we all enjoy today. They literally made chicken salad out of chicken $hit...as most game species were doing very poorly, many on the brink of extinction. Funny thing is...they did it without auction permits. I wonder how that happened?

To people like Nunya...I just dont buy your theory that the fat wallet hunters are the saviors of game managment. The average hunters, for many, many, many years before there was a such thing as an auction tag, have contributed much more to the conservation of game than some dude with a fat wallet has. I think the fat wallet guys have a lot of catching up to do...in particular since the average hunter has funded the entire bill for wildlife conservation for nearly 100 years. Meanwhile the fat wallet guy stumbles into the picture in the last decade and suddenly we cant manage game without their money? Bull$hit, we've done it for years and years and we'd continue to do it if auction tags werent available.

People like my father, and grandfather, have supported wildlife conservation through donations, buying regular hunting/fishing licenses, etc. for over 80 years. They did it for the wildlife and for the opportunity to enjoy hunting with family. They didnt expect 365 day seasons for their efforts, they didnt expect state-wide tags to hunt any area they wanted...they wanted to continue to enjoy the SAME opportunity that everyone else had.

They did it for unselfish reasons and didnt expect anything but an equal opportunity at the wildlife they supported.

Too bad that isnt the case anymore.

I wont be anything but blunt...these auction tags are not good for the sport...IMO. Has nothing to do with jealousy or anything else.

Believe it or not...there are still sportsmen out there that will not sell out their principles by purchasing an auction tag just so they can cut in front of everybody else...so they can have ANOTHER 400 inch bull...ANOTHER 200 inch mule deer...so they can be in ANOTHER magazine article, etc.

Sadly, sportsmen are becoming too far and few between...
 
Ok Nick, here's where i took your post wrong, i apologize if i misunderstood it.

Your post-
"I'm really glad you worked hard and all that but, I lose respect for people who use money to take cuts! Are you guilty of anything? Absolutely not, just taking advantage of a system that I think is completely unfair to the normal guy, and contrary to the North American Model of Wildlife Management."
End-

Bullmania did nothing but purchase a tag for a LE unit in Utah and hired Jim, (AWLB) to guide him.

How is that "system" unfair to the normal guy and contrary to wildlife management"?

Then in your last post you mentioned a guy in your home state spending $200K on a tag but that's ok.

Is your complaint about a guy who just buys an LE tag and avoids a draw like you and i have to wait for?
And that an auction tag is ok because of the dollars going back IN to wildlife?
If that's the case, i can see your point, even if i don't fully agree with it.


Not trying to be an ass here at all (i promise!), just simply trying to understand your complaint about "cutting corners"

(be nice now, bobcatbess is my bodyguard!!);-)








48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
BUZZ, When I see all the range habitat improvments and the many, many wild sheep transplants (I'm kind of a sheep fanatic), turkey transplants, etc. which are funded only by the money generated from auction tags I am all for them. A few years ago I felt like many of you do and hated the auction tag hunters. I became informed and saw how the money generated was used to benifit ALL of us who enjoy hunting and viewing wildlife. I could careless if Joe Fatwallet is on an ego trip to get on the cover of Trophy hunter mag. Believe it or not it is benifiting you. The money you and your father spent on a hunting permit bought a DWR officer a new pickup and payed his wage, It didn't put sheep on the Mountain or reseed winter range.
Do some research.



---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
Buzz H,

How is that Chicken $hit Salad????? just like mama made it????


its all about living in the now! what worked in the past may not work for today! life it all about change and adapt.

The action tag sales will do more for wildlife in one year than 10 years back when Chicken $hit salad was a number one hit!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-08 AT 10:48PM (MST)[p]I think we're understanding each other now.

Thanks for having a civil conversation.

Also, when I refer to the North American Model of Wildlife Management, I'm talking about the philosophy discussed in Big Fin's post. This is drastically different than the European model used as comparison. Remember these terms refer to the model, and not necessarily how things are carried out these days in Europe, or the USA for that matter.

I'm pretty sure the management you're talking about is killing X amount of bulls in this season X amount in that season which equals the total harvest for the year. In that effort some of those, particularly the earlier seasons will be focused on older age class animals and the tag numbers reflect the higher success anticipated.

Let's just say I would prefer a TAG ALLOCATION (not economic, or political) system, where money is not an object, when considering who gets the tag. I prefer that to be decided by a system that rewards those that wait long enough, like is practiced in Colorado in their limited entry areas and their preference point system, or something like New Mexico or Idaho, where there are no bonus points, and it is the pure luck of the draw. Or a combination of that like AZ. When wildlife is generally from public land, I have a hard time when a disproportionate amount of tags are available to those that can afford to spend a lot more money on tags, than the average middle class guy. Now the next question is, what is enough. I'd say a state that didn't have any might not be doing anybody any favors. I'd say that Utah is the other extreme. Arizona is just about right as far as that goes.

If you're talking about private landowner tags in some states and reservations, all bets are off. Charge 'em out the yin-yang!

Nick
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-08 AT 10:57PM (MST)[p]Nunya,

I think you need to do some research...Mr. fatwallet is not needed.

This sheep here...take a few moments to notice a few things about the picture besides the record book ram.

IMG_0763.JPG


For starters, you wont be finding an article in any magazine about that ram. You also wont notice any "guides"...just Dad, my brother and I. You'll also notice my Dad is pretty gray in the picture (60 years old)...he waited his turn and eventually drew in the state he's lived in his whole life (Montana) after 30+ years of applying. He didnt expect to or want to cut in line, just wanted an equal chance at drawing a permit.

Speaking of Montana and the hunting unit in question (213)...the sheep in that unit were transplanted without ONE SINGLE dollar from an auction tag. Come to think of it neither were the sheep in 210...the sheep in 216...the sheep in 203, etc. etc..

Matter of fact, I believe that almost all of the sheep herds in MT were established long before there was a governors tag or raffle permit in Montana...and I'm not aware of any unit that was established solely from the governors tag or raffle tag.

I guess it was just pure luck that MT and its average guys have established and managed the best sheep herd in the lower 48. Those ridiculous MT guys...thinking they could establish a herd of sheep like that without Mr. Fatwallet? What were they thinking?

Same goes with quality elk, deer, antelope, goats, moose, bears, lions, etc. They didnt do it for 70-80 years without Mr. Fatwallet and auction tags...or did they?

You're right, as usual Nunya...

You're welcome for the education.

one_dryboot,

Sorry for the complicated analogy...didnt realize I'd be confusing you.
 
We were not talkin bout Montana. We are talkin bout Ut. '
There are Montana sheep living in Utah because of auction tag money which bought and paid for them. Montana has enough sheep they can transplant within state. Utah must buy sheep from other states for transplant. That money does not come and will never come from the general state alloted DWR fund. Like I said do some research.
You can thank me later for the education. Nice ram.





---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
Buzz:

Everyone of your points are on target and would probably do a better job of summarizing my concerns about this auction tag process than any of the other comments I have provided earlier in this thread.

Blunt or not, Buzz's points are completely true and supported by the historical facts of how our wildlife was recovered. It is these exact principles I, and a few others, have mentioned here when discussing the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.

Those who have come before us have handed us a wildlife legacy, the likes of which the world has never seen. It did not happen with auction tags.

It was the average Joe, the hunter who volunteered to be taxed on his equipment, the hunter who purchased licenses for his entire life, the landowner who let critters graze his pasture even though he was on hard times, the hunter who didn't have spare change yet donated his scarce free time to conservation projects, the agency guys who pioneered this science of wildlife management. And so on.

It is these facts that makes me worry that we are doing more harm with auction tags than the conservation benefits provided from the proceeds.

If the huge growth in these tags is disenfranchising rank and file hunters, it will take a lot of auction tags to replace the license dollars, excise tax dollars, politcal support, volunteer hours, and charitable donations of these rank and file guys.

Thanks for the perspective, Buzz. As if I wasn't having a bad enough struggle with all of this.

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-08 AT 11:20PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-08 AT 11:14?PM (MST)

Nunya,

Utah doesnt need auction tags.

Creating LE units in UT has done more for wildlife quality than the money...thats a fact.

MT, WY, AZ, NM, CO all do just as well with wayyyyyyy fewer auction tags.

Is it worth it to you to sell away the publics wildlife to the highest bidder?

It wont be long and Mr. Fatwallet will have a bigger piece of the pie...and eventually...all of it. Actually, thats already taken place in Utah. More and more and more auction tags all the time. It wont stop...count on it.

Think about that while you're sitting on the side-lines reading "trophy hunting for the wealthy in Utah" about the 4th big bull, buck, ram, etc. shot by Mr. Fatwallet.

I love a good hunting story.
 
If the UDWR and the state would fund these projects then yes they could do it with out the auction tags. Fact is they don't and won't. Sorry, I have seen all the good the money does and I really don't care where it comes from. And yes if they can sell ONE tag for 100k and reseed several thousand acres of winter ground or purchase 20 sheep from Montana, Canada or Nevada it benifits everyone including you. Yes it is worth it. I hope they do sell a few more. I will wait another year or two for my sheep tag and hopefully they can open another sheep unit in the next year or two funded by auction tag transplants.




---------------------------------------
"I needed a cheesy signature saying like everyone else"
 
Buzz,

Great photo and way to go!

Check this out.

I got to play "guide" last year...

No money, no contracts, just a couple of good buddies from town finally getting their turn.

The satisfaction I got helping these guys with their hunts...Priceless!


P1000206.jpg


P1000191.jpg
 
MAN !!! This thing just ain't going to go away!

You guys that think that auction tags and Governors tags are not a necessity to help wildlife and hunting opportunity in todays world, need to do a little research, mix in some intelligent thinking and add a dash of reality.

This ain't 1966.

The requirements back then were not even close to what we have to work with today. Just like in your own job market....can you accomplish the same results with the same funding as 1966? Doubtful.

I would be willing to bet, that fully 60% of the costs of operating ANY state's wildlife department, in todays world, go to things that didn't even exist in '66......just the legal paperwork; EIRS, lawyers, salaries and insurance. Ten times more biologists, doing research on things we never even heard of back then.

Join the new millenium guy's. This ain't your grandpa's world and if you expect to get what you want out of it today, you better examine the reality......One $100,000 auction tag returns more revenue to the department than how many draw tags?....

And for those of you that are using your self righteous attitude and spouting that, "I'm a better sportsman than the hunter who bought his tag".....maybe you should have paid more attention in school.....or went in the first place.

"Whiners and Snivelers provide priceless entertainment.....always"
 
Heat, nice ram, if he was killed in Utah he was 'bought' by "Mr Fatwallet" years before he died. EVERY sheep in Utah was 'bought' by this guy.

Buzz, you sure seem sure of how things are done wrong, how about some solutions. Utah puts MORE dollars on the ground for habitat in one year than your state has in 10 years. That investment is starting to pay off, our elk herd is light years ahead of where it was 15 years ago, our deer herd is making a good comeback, we have THOUSANDS of bighorns/goats today instead of NONE, we have so many moose we are shipping some to Colorado, turkey tags are almost otc instead of not being there at all. This is due in LARGE part to the conservation tag program. Funny how someone form Wyoming is preaching about the 'right' way to manage wildlife, the direction you guys are going is downhill, your elk/deer/moose herds are shrinking while ours are growing, so why should we do it like you guys? I know, lets have wolves manage our herds instead of sportsmen. Take care of your own state before trying to 'fix' ours!

Remember this also, the habitat projects that have been done and are being done now take time to bear fruit, but that does NOT mean you don't plant the seeds. 10 years from now we shall see who had the proper vision on conservation. You can either sit back and hope for the best, like Wyoming, or you can take it by the 'horns' and make the future BETTER than the present/past. I grew up hunting in the early 80's, seeing an elk, that is ONE elk, was rare. And that was on the Manti, which has 10,000+ elk on it today. So, when people spout off and say it's becoming a rich man's sport I ask what planet are they from?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
"Heat, nice ram, if he was killed in Utah he was 'bought' by "Mr Fatwallet" years before he died. EVERY sheep in Utah was 'bought' by this guy."

Try about 5 houndred miles to the south Amigo, near ole Mexico. Those (plural, as in more than one), are mexicana rams (not nelsoni) and came from an area where they take sheep to give to you know who.

Your ifs were not even close. If you read above a little bit before commenting you would have known already that I've never really even been to Utah (besides a little fishing in Lake Powell).

Thanks,

Nick
 
Montana bighorn sheep find new home in Utah
From: Deseret News (Salt Lake City) | Date: January 20, 2005| Author: Ray Grass Deseret Morning News | Copyright 2005 Deseret News (Salt Lake City). Provided by ProQuest LLC.Copyright information

Utah once had herds of bighorn sheep roaming the rugged mountains and deserts. Old fossils and early rock painting confirm their presence.

Hunting and disease reduced their numbers, with the Rocky Mountain bighorn near extinction as recently as the 1970s.

Since that time, sportsmen's groups and the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources have been working to rebuild populations.

There are now several thousand sheep roaming some of Utah's prime sheep habitat.

















48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Heat wrote: "Try about 5 houndred miles to the south Amigo, near ole Mexico. Those (plural, as in more than one), are mexicana rams (not nelsoni) and came from an area where they take sheep to give to you know who.

Your ifs were not even close. If you read above a little bit before commenting you would have known already that I've never really even been to Utah (besides a little fishing in Lake Powell)."

That is why I said "IF". Sorry' I don't keep track of every poster that does/doesn't visit Utah to hunt.

That changes NOTHING, Utah has sheep because people paid BIG money to get them here, and to transplant them to different parts of the state. EVERY hunter who wishes to chase sheep in Utah benefits from this. I can see bighorns with 1/2 hour from my house that were not there 5 years ago, now there is 120+ with a couple of B&C rams in the mix. Even the non-hunters get to enjoy the fruits of others labor. These projects would NEVER happen with just the general public funding it in today's world, at least not in Utah. The money would be spent on schools/roads/liquor enforcement/etc, NOT on transplanting sheep/turkeys/moose/goats.

PRO



Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
 
"That is why I said "IF". Sorry' I don't keep track of every poster that does/doesn't visit Utah to hunt.

That changes NOTHING, Utah has sheep because people paid BIG money to get them here, and to transplant them to different parts of the state. EVERY hunter who wishes to chase sheep in Utah benefits from this. I can see bighorns with 1/2 hour from my house that were not there 5 years ago, now there is 120+ with a couple of B&C rams in the mix. Even the non-hunters get to enjoy the fruits of others labor. These projects would NEVER happen with just the general public funding it in today's world, at least not in Utah. The money would be spent on schools/roads/liquor enforcement/etc, NOT on transplanting sheep/turkeys/moose/goats."

I don't dispute any of what you are saying. I just don't think they need to take so many tags and have them for auction. One tag that is auctioned out of the 80 or 90 or so given out over the whole state is something I don't have a huge problem with. Again, they use 2 more of these tags and raffle them off to whoever wants a $20 or $25 chance in Arizona. I'm fine with that.

Can someone refer me to a website or something that descibes exactly how the tags are allocated to the auction in Utah? I'd like to educate myself a bit.

I'm pretty sure there are only minor differences of opinion here, but some of you guys make it sound way too black or white.

Nick
 
Thats all fine and dandy but in the end, you aint really hunting when the guides do all your work and you just pull the trigger

Remove the hunting from hunting and all you got left is a big rack hanging on the wall
 
Geeeez Mr.Lantz, a bit late aren't ya?

I COULD waste my time repeating myself again and what other fellow guides have already said about your gripe, but my time is better spent in the campfire forum on the "border patrol" post doing something constructive.

Maybe smeone else will expalin to you that the hunters do just as much work as the guides do, most of them hire us simply as a "chauffer".








48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Wait a minute i have been on plenty of guided hunts and worked my a** off to harvest an animal.

A guide does a lot of the leg work,knows the country and collapses the area down to hunt in.

Example the wasatch unit is lets say a BIG unit ............

I like big racks on the wall to HA !HA!.

Thanks
Bull
 
Bull-

Save your breath and energy for your elk hunt this fall, you'll waste it all trying to get through to people with this type of mentality.

And when you strap that meat pack on your back with an elk quarter on it, right along side your guide i might add, you can just laugh at all the ignorance that surrounds the guided hunting world.











48288e6577d023b6.jpg
 
Just ignore Mr. Lantzs' ignorant and unintelligent comment. He obviously has never seen what guiding and using a guide entails.

Wildlife population control specialist
 
Jim
there are some that have never been on a guided hunt and have perceptions that need clarity to them.,

A guided hunt or not is a LOT of work and are not always a walk in the park or easy pickins.

I have never been on a guided hunt that was easy , that is why it is hunting................

Bull
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-29-08 AT 03:18PM (MST)[p]Lets keep it civil ,everyone has an opinion.

Those that have experience are considered fact not opinions.

Everyone is entitled to there own rebutals even though i may not agree with them all.

Bull
 
Bull the more unintelligent ppl that enter this thread the less civil it will get haha thats just the way it goes. When ya start gettin posts like mr lantz they drag the rest down usually and the the ability to be civil flies out the window. Because of a raunchy few the rest are degraded aint that the story of the world. haha oh well we will try and keep it decent ;-)

Wildlife population control specialist
 

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