Elk Season not going so well....

C

cnmodaw

Guest
So this elk season has been the most frustrating season Ive had so far. Ive been to my 2 favorite areas where i always see and get into the elk heavy. Both places a 2.5 hour drive, lots of time and lots of gas money to find out that SHEEP! have over run the canyons and ran the elk out, hiked all day long and haven't seen 1 elk! I ran into the sheep herder who didnt speak a lick of english and motioned the elk have left. I don't know if its the sheep or the sheep dogs, barking all day and night and every thing that moves. I think they should make it illegal to keep their sheep in these canyons during the hunting seasons. I don't know how many hunts its ruined, but it has already ruined 2 of mine and it's only been 4 days into the season. Have any of you run into this problem? Do the sheep stay in these canyons the entire hunt?
 
There is nothing worse then sheep. I had two pretty good bucks scouted until the sheep showed up. They eat everything and are hell on habitat. Earlier this spring i watched two sheep dogs chase and kill a mule deer fawn. I reported it but no one seems to care.
 
MOUNTAIN MAGGOTS! That's exactly what they are. I can not stand the whole sheep grazing deal. I know there are tax benefits for landowners but it makes things difficult for for everyone. I hunt deer on private land in N.Utah and we have sheep on the property for the majority of the summer. The sheep most defiantly impact the wildlife during the summer. Things don't heat up until they are gathered up and taken out in late September. I could go on and on about this, and believe me I feel your pain. I hope everything works out for you!
 
Put a little barbeque sauce on 'em and they taste a lot like Elk. AND, you don't have to use your tag !
 
>You didn't happen to be hunting
>on the Wasatch did you?
>
>
>Elk


I was ready to ask the same question!

The last two years have been ugly on the Wasatch for sheep! We have even scouted areas up to the day before the hunt and, I kid you not, opening morning sheep are pushed through these areas!

I started to think that the DWR was in on it. It just seems ironic that two years in a row, on opening day, sheep get pushed through an area that is heavy with elk.
 
I would bet that those sheep leases have been there a lot longer than you have, so learn to deal with it. Try putting the shoe on the other foot for a moment and consider the sheep rancher that is trying to make a living running sheep on there lease that has most likely been in the family for generations when all the sudden around hunting season, hunters show up & start hassling the sheep(see above)& griping like they have more right to these areas than the person trying to make a living there.

Nevertheless I understand your plight & have had it happen to me on several occasions. Sometimes you can use it to your advantage since the sheep typically move diagonally across a range & if you know were the are headed you can hunt the Elk as they are displaced in an ambush. Knowing that if they are all gone they had to go somewhere figure out were that is & be there waiting.
 
Yeah i have been hunting the wasatch. It's been really bad lately. I understand that sheep herders need to make a living, but it's been so hard especially because i have a 2.5 hour drive to find out that the area i hunt is bombarded with sheep and no elk. I just put so much time into scouting and hours of hiking preparing for this hunt. I still have the whole hunt and im sure it will work out for the best. I hunt south of strawberry and also north of currant creek. Just got to put in more work i guess. Those elk stakes in the freezer will be worth it in the end!
 
cnmodaw don worry man you still got time and the longer u go the better it gets!
littlebeaver.jpg


Wildlife population control specialist
 
you know, you might not believe this. But I have seen elk grazing right along with sheep here in Nevada. It didn't seem to bother the elk one bit.
 
I dont see how a sheep rancher using "public resources" has anything to do with it. We actually do have more right to be there than a sheep herder. The sheep herder is basically welfare ranching for dirt cheap, and taking away habitat and feed for native wildlife. Its so bad in ID that they want the IDFG to KILL bighorn sheep populations because it might interfere with their grazing leases! And they are leases, not owned, the land is owned by the public, sheep herders just lease it, and they are retiring more leases vs renewing them, which is what they should do.
 
And when your Lamb and beef start costing $25.00 per pound you'll be the first to ##### about that too! Public land means MULTIPLE USE. Not one special interest like hunting or ranching. We all gotta be out there together, thats why it's public! Bicycles, hikers, grazing, camping, hunters, and sunday drivers. I'd deal with it and look for private land if ya can't. It's only been this way forever. Good luck finding some elk and hope ya stick one!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-08 AT 07:14PM (MST)[p]>i am no expert on the issue, and there are two sides to every story, but some of my ideas:

1. the elk probably didnt leave the country, try looking in close by areas where there are not any sheep.

2. grazing, similar to mild fires, done properly will increase the feed quality of the range, resulting in better feed for wildlife at latter times.

3. stockman and woolgrowers associations are usually toward the top of the list of people providing time and money to reduce predators, including fighting liberal wolf lovers in court.

4. cattle and sheep are important economic producers in most western states, the better the economy the better is life for everyone. those ranchers who are using usfs gracing permits sell thier livestock every year and then go to town and spend millions of dollars on property taxes, machinery, fuel, stock feed, and so on, creating jobs and revenue for hundreds of other people.
 
Relax a bit. I heard that nine out of ten Mt Lions prefer mutton over deer or elk venison.

"With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of control, mud
slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the
country from one end to another, and with the threat
of bird flu and terrorist attacks, 'Are we sure this is a
good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?
"- Jay Leno
 
Great post Vaquero, you are right on the money.

Ranchers are your allies. Not to say there are not slop ranchers because there are some, but, for the most part they are fighting on your side in many battles.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-08 AT 11:09PM (MST)[p]the sheep don't bother me near as much as the dogs..
i thought i was going to have to shoot one,, more than one time..
luckily rocks was all that was needed..
 
If you look at the majority of ranchers and their leases, they are WAY overgrazed. You can tell just by looking at them, they trample stream beds and banks, hang out at water holes. I was on Mt Dutton in two weekends I saw 4 dead cows. One half way in a water hole dead and bloated, one dead on a cattle guard. And they would just bed down around every water hole we saw. And they had been there for well over a week. Its disgusting. They actually contribute to wildfires not reduce them, they help spread cheat grass which is a HUGE factor in wildfires.

Also as far as economic impacts, they cost tax payers like you and me millions and millions of dollars every year in subsidies. They get HUGE tax breaks and dont pay a dime for their grazing. Its like $1.50 per cow/calf for a month. How can that benefit anyone? Also just so you know, public land grazing accounts for 3 percent of the beef the US uses. 3 percent. I dont care if they graze their cows on PRIVATE land. Thats fine. Just keep them off the public.
 
cnmodaw give me a PM or call me. I PM'd you about the help on the Wasatch. Hope you didn't think I was a guide trying to lock you in. I just want to go hunting if I can and help someone out. I just asked what size a bull you would be happy with and that would help me determine where I would scout.
 
I can deal with the sheep... I'm SICK of the 100 degree weather!!!!!!!! Doesn't seem right to be hunting elk in shorts & flip flops! I'm wondering if we are ever going to hit the rut during our lovely new season dates. Whoever pushed for the new dates must not bow hunt elk!... FRUSTRATED!
 
Interesting post, I guess we should abandon all livestock production so that a few people can enjoy their sport for a couple of weeks each year. In fact the same argument could be made to prevent drilling in ANWR or off shore drilling to insure healthy salmon runs. How about stopping all agricultural sprinkling to preserve pheasant habitat?

Point is you better think twice before you condemn one point of view or another. That's why each state had wildlife committees made up of livestock people, sportsmen, conservationists, and law enforcement (DWR).

RUS
 
Rus, There is an extreme to everything, I am not saying that ALL livestock production should be abandoned. Even though 97 percent of the US beef is produced through private livestock producers on private land. Not public. As for sprinklers as long as they are on private property I could care less, the issue is public vs private. They are using a public resource for private gain, not to mention the MILLIONS of dollars tax payers pay for the subsidies they use. I am sure there are some racnchers that are good stewards, but I dont honestly think the arrid US is designed to support the grazing that is put on it. Just look at any waterhole or streambed the next time you are on the mountain. They trample the beds and destroy the land around the waterholes and suck dry the available water sources that the native wildlife need. Just look at this post and pictures of a waterhole he sat on. Cow $hit everywhere, cows laying around blocking pronghorn access to even come water!

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/12578.html

Like I mentioned I was on the Dutton and found a cow bloated and rotting IN A WATERHOLE. Where was the rancher to come and pick up the mess? It had been dead for weeks. Or the calf that was stuck in the cattle guard that was decomposing and rotting on the side of the road? Thats the reason I get bugged. Do what you want on private property, but public is different. Thats just my opinion. Drive out through the Pony Express road towards Dugway and look at the range and tell me if you think that area looks healthy.
 
Coyote chaser needs to come spend a day on our allotment. He could see all the improvements we have put in. He could watch deer and chuckars and grouse and tons of non-game wildlife water in areas that wouldnt fill up a thirsty lizard before the troughs went in. He could see the difference between rested pastures and grazed land and how the grass is healthy and vibrant in one spot and dormant and regressing to weeds and less wildlife friendly plants in the other. He could talk to Rangers from the BLM and the Forest Service who monitor the public land and make sure it is taken care of. Or he can keep making false statements like "the majority of public land is overgrazed"! Sure there are idiots who ruin thier range. But where are they gonna put thier livestock next year? There are hunters who make the rest of us look like dumb butts too. And one more little thought.... if hunters and ranchers can't get along in this fight against anti-hunting and animal rights activists we are all screwed!!!! Hope ya all find lots of bucks and bulls to fling arrows at, just leave a great buck for me on the muzzy hunt!!
 
Rus, I never said ALL ranchers, but at the same time I seriously doubt that ranchers as a whole have the best interest of hunters in mind. Or else they would not raise a fit when herd objectives want to raised. Or the sheep herders in ID that want to wipe out the entire Unit 11 sheep herd in ID (which just happens to produce B&C rams) because the domestic sheep pass diseases to wild sheep. So rather than cut back their grazing leases they want the wild sheep herds killed. That sounds like privitization of a public resource to me. I am sure I could call those same Rangers at the BLM and Forest Service and they will tell me horror stories of allotments that are beat to hell! Like I said I dont care what happens on private property but public land should be managed for the publics best interest. Not how many cows we can fit onto a range. Also look at the link I posted and tell me if that rancher is a good steward of the land!
One more thing, who do I contact to complain about a rancher leaving dead rotting cows floating in waterholes on public land? I am sure it is his responsibility to remove the carcass. I have nothing against ranchers as people, just against the majority of public land grazing.
 
Coyote! Breathe through your nose son. I think we are all on the same page.

Just don't post a bunch of nonsense that nobody is buying into!

RUS .... done with this one!!!!!!
 
Coyote, what the heck are we supposed to do with all the dead deer that are dead in our streams? What about the dead rabbits, squirrels, and even elk? Mother Nature. If the sheep are bothering you, move on. The sheep didn't kill the elk, just moved them. It's a hunt.........try and find them.
 
Section6, all those animals you mentioned are native animals. Mother Nature, not cows. And I am not complaining about the sheep ruining my hunt, just ruining habitat thats all.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-08 AT 09:24PM (MST)[p]RUS, no I dont think we are on the same page obviously. I am not angry or upset, just stating how I feel. If you want some links to the info I posted I can give them to you, its pretty easy stuff to find. And if you dont think anyone is picking up what I am putting down go read the thread about cattle groups wanting tags, seemed there were ALOT of hunters that feel the same way I do. I dont have anything against ranchers personally, I just want my public lands managed for the public's best interest in mind, not how many cows the range could support. Thats all.

Here is just one quick link if you want to read it.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/newsupdates/story/296240.html
 
I too try to use the sheep to my advantage. Yes, the hunting would usually be easier if the sheep were not there, but I can't change that. I speak spanish, so I get as much info out of the herder as I can. He can tell you where the sheep are, where they have been, and where they are going. I have even got good info on where big bucks and bulls are hanging out from them.
Maybe if you gave the sheep herder some velcro gloves and some Coronas (for the sheep to loosen them up a little) he would share useful info and maybe even share one of his favorite sheep with you!
In all seriousness I would just try to work with them and around them.
 
Hey troutsniffer! Don't be letting that cat out of the bag! I have gotten real friendly with a few herders over the years and gotten some good info.

Mike Henne
 
Some of you may not agree but I feel the same about cattle ranching on public land. I hunted NV and NE Cali during archery hunts and saw nothing but cattle everywhere. I was a little pissed. None of them should be allowed to grazed or strip the land(sheep) during hunting seasons.

JR
 
Here is a suggestion that fits right in with a MODERN AMERICA HOPING FOR CHANGE. Lets start importing all our food needs. That way we could preserve all of wildlands for our children. Its seems like a great cause that most Americans would be more than happy to fight for. After all it is for the benefit of the little people. If the time comes when the price of importing food is getting too high we could enjoy the experts telling us growing our own food is just a goverment gimmick trying to enrich the BIG RANCH INDUSTRY. For the sake of recreation we must all ban together and stop BIG RANCHING.
 
MTgiants, You do realize, a very very small portion of the beef the US consumes each year is produced on public lands. The HUGE majority is produced on private feed lots. Which is fine by me. If you think that public land grazing is what produces our food you are WAY wrong. Here is a small portion of a report from the Government Accountability Office, I can forward the entire PDF if you want, its from 2004:

"In fiscal year 2004, federal agencies spent a total of at least $144 million [on grazing]. The 10 federal agencies spent at least $135.9 million, with the Forest Service and BLM accounting for the majority."

" The 10 federal agencies? grazing fees generated about $21 million in fiscal year 2004?less than one-sixth of the expenditures to manage grazing."

So taxpayers spend over 140 million dollars, and public land grazers pay 21 million in fees. Sounds like a good deal to me!!
How many business out there could survive when they only create 1/6th of their debt each year? ZERO. Its taxpayers money that keep public land ranchers in business.
 
Hey yote chaser. I want to say something to you. Removing the cattle is a good first step to stopping all hunting. Just keep that in mind.

In my favorite hunting ground, the mojave desert, they came in and created a nice park. Said we would be able to continue to hunt it. Then, they systematicly reduced and now eliminated the cattle ranchers. You might say that was good, one problem, they then started taking out all the water!!! They being the park service.

They want no roads, no water, and no hunting.
If you can't get there and there is no water. What do you have, no hunting. Same is true in the blm/national forest, same deal.

Keep that in mind. You might win the battle, and find you've lost the war.
 
Yotechaser, I stated how i feel earlier, however, i think that your info on where the majority of our beef comes from could be wrong.

Most cases beef are raised out on the range and then sent to a feed yard to finish. As a result the vast majority of beefs final stopping place is the feed lot but most started out on the range.

I understand your concerns, but, like posted before ranchers are our allies in most cases. The alternative is the rich elite in our country buying these huge tracks of land. I know your talking about public land, but, there is lots of hunting done on private. Less hunters out there less people on our side.

Also some good points made about the Mojave in CA. I grew up there and I watched that happen. Sportsmen and ranchers were systematically removed from hundreds of thousands acres.
It was very ugly how it happened.




>MTgiants, You do realize, a very
>very small portion of the
>beef the US consumes each
>year is produced on public
>lands. The HUGE majority is
>produced on private feed lots.
>Which is fine by me.
>If you think that public
>land grazing is what produces
>our food you are WAY
>wrong. Here is a small
>portion of a report from
>the Government Accountability Office, I
>can forward the entire PDF
>if you want, its from
>2004:
>
>"In fiscal year 2004, federal agencies
>spent a total of at
>least $144 million [on grazing].
>The 10 federal agencies spent
>at least $135.9 million, with
>the Forest Service and BLM
>accounting for the majority."
>
>" The 10 federal agencies? grazing
>fees generated about $21 million
>in fiscal year 2004?less than
>one-sixth of the expenditures to
>manage grazing."
>
>So taxpayers spend over 140 million
>dollars, and public land grazers
>pay 21 million in fees.
>Sounds like a good deal
>to me!!
>How many business out there could
>survive when they only create
>1/6th of their debt each
>year? ZERO. Its taxpayers money
>that keep public land ranchers
>in business.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-24-08 AT 05:07PM (MST)[p]I run cattle on blm range in southern ore. and am an avid hunter.
a couple points:

when govt. spends 140 million administering these grazing lands you can bet there's plenty of gov. waste. I see more blm pickups out cruising the backcountry than everyone else put together for much of the year.

it's barely cost effective to run cattle on open range, I've left mine empty for 3 or 4 years, a lot of other guys are doing the same thing.

cattle numbers are on the decline because of economics and the aging of the ranching population, unless these factors change we will be seeing less cattle on the range as time goes on.
 

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